BIG 3 END UP NOT GETTING THE LOAN!!!

[ar guy]

To the people who want the bailout loan to go through, what happens in 2-3 years when they are in this exact same position. Do we just keep giving them money?Do we not let them

learn from their failures and say "Oh it's okay if you produce cars that no one wants here's a couple billion dollars to keep doing whatyou're doing."

 

[mjbetch]

Originally Posted by AR Guy

To the people who want the bailout loan to go through, what happens in 2-3 years when they are in this exact same position. Do we just keep giving them money? Do we not let them

learn from their failures and say "Oh it's okay if you produce cars that no one wants here's a couple billion dollars to keep doing what you're doing."

technically we don't know if they're gonan be in this exact position

 

[trethousandgt]

Its been a long time coming for US auto makers, I'll never forget my grandfather a world war II vet, ALWAYS bought American when it came to cars and hefinally got fed up with their piss poor quality and their horrible customer service, in 1990 he bought a camry and never went back, same thing happened with myuncle's and then eventually my father, they definitely build an inferior product, american made cars are notorious for having transmission problems, andbuild quality issues such as cheap plastics and bad paint jobs.






The only thing I'm concerned about is if there are no more American made cars then their could begin to be an issue with other brands, I've already hadproblems with Lexus and let me tell you their corporate headquarters is as unprofessional as they get.




If Chevy, Ford, and GM would just stop producing such generic looking cars and put a little more quality into them I would have no problem buying an Americanmade vehicle, but depreciation+poor reliability+poor customer service+ majority of vehicles made with mediocre looks=No purchase.

 

[armenexchange]

havent been keepin up too much with this but what i hear
my professor does collab/work with the head ceos at these industries
what he told me

the ceos demand flyin private jets non-stop rather than goin 1st class or business, just bleedin money thru extravagance. this is just 1 example i heard.
the unions have crippled the 3. the line workers get wayy too much pay. cmon now, 30/hr (underestimate) for line labor work?
not to mention health benefits, overtime, etc. these dudes are gettin fed off the inefficiencies of these companies.

i hear the ceos offered to get paid 1$ next year as their salary if they get bailed out. any truth to this? lol these ceo fat cats are so fed, even with a1$/annual salary, theyre alredy well fed for their future.

 

[escobar0o3]

this bailout would only succeed in not allowing the "big 3" to go out of business TEMPORARILY. there's no plan to improve the individual businessplans and no reason they should just dump money into sinking companies because it WILL happen again.. and they WOULD ask for more money from the governmentAGAIN.


would you invest your money into somethin' you know won't succeed?

 

[shatterkneesinc]

its like burning cash to keep someone on life support when you know this person will be a vegetable for the rest of its life

the difference?

the person on life support may be loved by people

GM Ford and Chrysler?

Not so much

 

[tbone95860]

Originally Posted by Fede DPT

I dont think FDR had this in mind for Unions when it was originally drawn out....Or did he...

Unions.... what a joke

The reason for all these damn auto industry problems currently.

 

[dunkaroos]

Without the UAW, there would be no minimum wage, overtime, social security, etc.

They're just standing up for the little guys.

 

[bamez]

I think OP is forgetting the fact that bailing out the big 3 only means more money we, our children, our children's children, etc. will have to pay off.

 

[thehealthinspector]

Originally Posted by Dunkaroos

Without the UAW, there would be no minimum wage, overtime, social security, etc.

They're just standing up for the little guys.

standing up for the little guy? theyre doing more than just that, they're blowin the little guy, im hearing reports of people getting paid 30an hour for simple jobs like pushing buttons. As for minimum wage, i think someone above how their minimum wage is like 24/hr, all these people who wererecently laid off all over the country would probably jump at the chance to work for half of that. As for social security, i dont know what ur talking aboutbut if ur talking about them playing a role in starting social security, i guess we can thank them for setting up a system that was doomed to fail

as for the 15 billion LOAN, im starting to wonder if average citizens such as ourselves would really care about a 15billion loan if we hadnt already OKed a700+ billion loan, in reality 15billion is the equivalent of occupying iraq for only a month and a half, i hate that the federal government is in thissituation but am starting to wonder what REALLY happens if we let these 3 fail, i mean people make it sound like creative-destruction happens over night likemillions wont be out of jobs, what bothers me is how people are overly-criticizing management and talking about mismanagement when clearly unions stand forANTI-efficiency, i think this is the perfect time for the big 3 to go against the union and just start laying off tens of thousands of people, see if the uniontries to strike or some garbage like that

edit- im not for just giving these companies a blank check without stipulations, but people need to realize that when it comes to failure, we're not justtalking about 3 high paid CEOs, we're not just talking about how ever many factory workers (probably 10s of thousands), we're talking about the city ofdetroit and its economic core, the more i read NT i get the feeling that most of the people on here dont live in cities that are based around one majorindustry which just happens to be one or two large manufacturing facilities, it sounds as if most people either live in ny or la

 

[knightngale]

$24 an h our for pushing buttons?

 

[thunderchunk69]

Originally Posted by knightngale

$24 an h our for pushing buttons?

*looks at his post count*... and ive been doing this for free?

 

[joe mcknight is ballin]

Originally Posted by Dunkaroos

Without the UAW, there would be no minimum wage, overtime, social security, etc.

They're just standing up for the little guys.

and with them a lot of these people prob wont be having a job soon.

 

[dl2352]

Originally Posted by Dunkaroos

Without the UAW, there would be no minimum wage, overtime, social security, etc.

They're just standing up for the little guys.

The Honda plant down the road from them doesn't have unions and they're doing great.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/20/honda.town/http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/20/honda.town/

 

[fromthatown]

Originally Posted by Dunkaroos

Without the UAW, there would be no minimum wage, overtime, social security, etc.

They're just standing up for the little guys.

This man knows what he is talking about. The media is trying to make the unions out as a bad guy, and you pawns on NT don't even see the powerplay they are trying to make. Really read up on the unions wages and what they really do besides pushing a button. People can lose limbs, can have brain damage and can die on these job sites.

I'm a union guy myself as a Longshoreman out on the docks. I always hear the misconception about Union guys or Longshoremans are RICH. Don't believethe hype. Yes, we can get rich through hard work and managing our finances, but we are just middle class people that unite together as one to make sure ourjobs are secured and the next generation can have a chance at a job. We do not get rich over night. We work hard and we want to keep our jobs.Unions are oneof the fine checks and balances in a work force and they have made sacrifices with their lives. Imagine working at a job that can kill you or injure you for awhole year, then what will happen to your family's security if it wasn't for the benefits and wages that a union fights for you in their contracts.You'd be broke just trying to pay off your hospital bills when you're injured. I broke my fingers twice in one year and was out for about 2 months, andwe had 3 people die just only at my port on the job site.

 

[dunkaroos]

All you Obama supporters should be ashamed of yourselves.

Unions were the single greatest force that got him elected.
And Obama's biggest labor issue is the Employee Free Choice Act.

There's no such thing as pushing buttons for $30, but there is a thing called tenure. Union workers are as loyal as they get.

When public schools need teachers, who do they turn to? How about electricians? Engineers?

 

[dacityslanga]

So after reading this thread, Everyone in here either has the following:

-No car at all (either take parent's cars or public transportation)
-Everyone in here drive an import which I find hard to believe
-Everyone doesnt care, yet when the parts for their vehicles rise becuase they are discontinued they are the main ones complaining

The Auto Industry has been struggling in recent years but that doesnt mean they should be out of work altogether, what if that employee was your family member?You would be upset and worried about how your family would make it. But since it doesnt involve you, then they should get what they deserve????

Sad, just sad

 

[nothingbefore]

LET GO OF THE POWER MAN

ITS OVER


LET IT FALL AND LET THE CHILD SHOW YOU WHAT LIFE ABOUT



I BET OBAMA TRY TO PATCH SOMETHING TOGETHER ASAP FOR THESE " BIG 3 " THO

 

[pacmagic2002]

I'm glad I work for a company that runs portrait studios.....people will always need/want family portraits (we are the largest company right now)

Of course ill have to hold off on going to collage, but at least ill have a job.

 

[quiktoflip]

The Union hate is strong here LOL. Unions built this country.

Yes lets pile the blame for the ecnomic crisis on the lowest person on the todem pole. Becasue he is what caused this problem. His $1200 (yes I know that isa good amount of money ) for a 40hour work week is the biggest blunder in America. Not the CEO making Millions a Year, the ones that scarcely put in a fullweeks work. They only show up couple times a week for board meetings. has time to hit the gym as his Chef prepares his meals. And doesnt have to worry aboutgetting to work on time cause hell hes the Boss whos clocking him?

I agree that the priviledges the Union empoyees enjoy are out of hand. Performance should be the key. Worker misconduct is not something that should bedefended. When an employee is being taken advantage of is when a union should step in. Those stealing from the company either time, materials they all have adollar amount, should be let go. I have no problem with their wages. The wages are a result of decades of negoiating for an era of employees that no longerexist. Quality employees the ones that show up no matter what and work. Those of that era knew when they do retire they would need strong benefits. Peoplecomplaining about that as if having benefits when you are 65+ after years of working with toxic metals is not needed. We already know that social security isnot going to be around forever. So should we just take them to a field and shoot them? Thatll redefine hunting season. Prissy !%@ people talking about they ascorporate professionals dont get paid that much and they went to school. Is it possible you went to school for the wrong thing? If you pursued it you did itfor 2 reasons, personal satifaction or finacial gain. If you knew your field doesnt pay well when you got into it why are you complaining?
Becasue it is a blue collar job does that mean they shouldnt be paid a good wage? If blue collars automatically made less than all white collar workers thatwould create a class system, no?

Balance is and will always be the problem to go to either extreme is what causes problems. If shouldnt cost a company money to let someone go. If they didsomething wrong! But a worker shouldnt be penalized because there is a slowdown. Why not reassign him? Make him earn that money.

Why cant they fix the problems w/o going into bankruptsy? That IS an option. The deal was for a LOAN, a 15 billion dollar loan. They had a plan to pay itback. It was NOT a GIFT CHECK like the one given to AIG.

 

[raburns04]

Originally Posted by 718stylez

straight from the horses mouth

How much are current UAW auto industry wages?

In 2006 a typical UAW-represented assembler at GM earned $27.81 per hour of straight-time labor. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker at GM earned $32.32 per hour of straight-time labor. Between 2003 and 2006, the wages of a typical UAW assembler have grown at about the same rate as wages in the private sector as a whole - roughly 9 percent. Part of that growth is due to cost-of-living adjustments that have helped prevent inflation from eroding the purchasing power of workers' wages.

28 bucks an hour for basic line work?!? excluding benefits. 9% annual raises?!? thats outrageous. Thats almost 56k base and the majority of them get a decent amount of overtime...and this is Detroit.

most college educated professionals in New York don't have jobs like this. Screw the UAW and screw the Big 3(2). The market has spoken, there's always another company around the corner to step in to fill the void.


28 bucks an hour for basic line work?!?
28 bucks for all line work, save skilled trades, basic or not. I dare you to work on the bumper line for a few weeks and tell me it's not worth it. Thefigures now are more like 14-16 bucks for all incoming assembly workers, and the Detroit 3 are doing all in their power to get more of these

excluding benefits.
People shouldn't get healthcare? The physical toll that auto assembly work takes on your body is huge, the Detroit 3 would be irresponsibleto take people on for this kind of work and then leave them out to pasture, although Viagra claims, etc. are ridiculous. The problem with this country is thatwe've placed the burden of providing such things on the private sector. In Japan, and Canada (where the American automakers have a ton of plants), allbasic services and many others are provided by the government. In my mind, you can either be pro-union, or pro-universal healthcare. Pick one.

9% annual raises?!?
Can you read? 9% from 2003-2006, which seems to be in line with the income increases for workers across the private sector.

Thats [sic] almost 56k base and the majority of them get a decent amount of overtime...and this is Detroit
There's not a whole not of overtime right now. And this is Detroit, Flint, Lansing, all of Michigan. It's also Ontario, Ohio, Indiana,Missouri, Tennesee, Delaware, New York, Pennsylvania, and others. Don't get caught in the "it's not me" mentality.

most college educated professionals in New York don't have jobs like this
No, not in their first few years. But any college-educated schmoe (like myself) who did well in school (maybe not a whole lot like me), workshard, and has good connects should be tipping the balance in their favor after a while. And if you can't do that? Looks like you took the wrong route . .. maybe you were more cut ot for line work.

Screw the UAW and screw the Big 3(2).
Screw you.

The market has spoken, there's always another company around the corner to step in to fill the void.
I hope you maintain this smug attitude when your job is on the chopping block. Any company that fills the void will send all profits and a fair amount oftaxes to the home country, will have limited competition and less incentive to do better than others (and likely fall into similar traps as the Detroit 3), andwill have no incentive to pay as well as they do now. The cats in the south making $18/hr will blink and be making $11/hr. Other industries will suffer: local entrepreneurs will see drastically reduced revenues and may shut their doors. But hey - the market has spoken.

I wonder why we attack our auto companies for paying too much and not keeping pace with the market, but didn't examine more closely the business model ofsome of these financial companies, where immediate profit trumped long-term sustainability and damned-near killed them. Where companies were deceptive intheir practices and paid their workers exponentially more than any manufacturer. Why we hate the guy who saved for 20 years to buy a fishing boat, but willbend over backwards to save the hedge fund manager who bought a yacht before he turned 30. Any Wharton MBA should've realized that when you lend some guymaking $30,000 a year enough money to buy a $500,000 house, he'll default at some point; but he won't lend a multi-billion multinational enough to getthrough the year. I guess . . .

 

[throwedindagame]

Originally Posted by shatterkneesinc

what are you tlakingabout?

In America, if something sucks they should go out of business. And what is so American about GM Ford and Chrysler.

They outsourced millions of jobs overseas.

And I don't recall the government bailing out Toyota and Honda, why? Because they don't need it.

Ignorance.

There are going to be a lot of people out of a job by Jan and the auto industry failure is just extending the breadlines. And to address your last comment,those companies are foreign companies. Why would OUR government bail them out? Your logic is horrible.

I can't wait for the imminent domino effect and cascading failure of other industries such as steel and TV advertising to take place. I was offered a jobas a co-op engineer at General Motors. They wanted me on an electrical design team. God, is really looking out for me. I would have been out of a job.

 

[deuce king]

I don't think people truly understand the significance of the Big 3 in America if they were to all close down. It's alot bigger than just not seeingany more new Ford or Chevy's on the road. We are talking about long-term effects for the entire country.

 

[throwedindagame]

Originally Posted by Deuce King

I don't think people truly understand the significance of the Big 3 in America if they were to all close down. It's alot bigger than just not seeing any more new Ford or Chevy's on the road. We are talking about long-term effects for the entire country.

Yes. A lot of idiots fail to realize this. But the average American is a sheep at best. Most people can not see past the end of their nose.....so to speak.

 

[lazy b]

A lot of mad people in here. Like ol' boy in Congress said the other day, they were just delaying their funeral by asking for this loan. If the big wigswould have made the proper adjustments 20 years ago, they wouldn't have this problem right now. Unfortunately we are viewing the last days of an Americaninstitution.

In my mind, you can either be pro-union, or pro-universal healthcare. Pick one.
Or you can be neither. There are plenty of private companies that pay for their employees healthcare and benefits so stop it.

Your argument is so biased its disgusting.

EDIT: Yeah the Unions have been important in American history but then like now, union bosses have been looking out for their own interests. When these peopleget laid off due to some of what the UAW did, all they will do is say sorry while they drive off to the suburbs to their nice house while driving a foreigncar.

Oh and to those who think FDR got us out of the Great Depression, he acutally prolonged it.