BIG 3 END UP NOT GETTING THE LOAN!!!

[devildog1776]

Originally Posted by NikeTalker23

at the end of the day, american auto makers make crap cars and thats all that matters.

TRUE...

some people say that this is going to effect the country as a whole but its gonna happen sooner or later and the govt realized that..... If they did get themoney what were they going to do that is so groundbreaking that it will change the face of the US auto industry? Nothing but this just in............


White House to Consider Use of Funds to Aid Automakers

In a shift, the White House said on Friday that it would

consider using money from the $700 billion financial bailout

to help automakers after the Senate abandoned a rescue bill.

 

[patmc13]

IF the big 3 go under we go from recession to depression...1/10 of American jobs are related to the auto industry...3 million jobs would be lost within thefirst year of collapse...

 

[lurkin2long]

i dont care about the union when i worked at UPS back in college they took from my already crappy paycheck.

 

[dublbagn]

Its funny to read these replies (the posts that occurred this morning) as opposed to the posts that were immediately posted last night.......It seems like thepeople posting this morning have jobs and are a bit older, we all realize the major hurt that this could cause us all.

700 billion to the financial industry to help keep the economy afloat, and they end up just covering their own butts and not loan any of that money out likethey said they would....and they have no government oversight as to what happens with the money....

The unions built this country, and most of these people posting are just dismissing that. And to clarify UAW WORKERS DONT MAKE 80K A YEAR, THEY DO NOT MAKE$78 PER HOUR. The really funny thing is that most people dont realize how many jobs will be lost....someone who posted above me said 3 million jobs lost inthe first year..THATS RIGHT, THE FIRST YEAR!!!!!! But I have faith that the government will change their minds, and you will see some protectionism on thegovernment's side....buy your foreign cars now if you want them, I would bet we see us (the USA) do what other countries do...tax foreign auto makers10-20% more just to sell cars in our country.....

and please realise that when you people say "it was going to fail, let them fail" that the playing field is not fair!!!! We pay our workers well,other countries can have labor produce for much less....working conditions here are great, over seas not so much......so when you say let them fail you areessentially saying "i wish they would move their production over seas" since the only way to compete with cheap foreign labor is to hire the samecheap foreign labor.

and RABURNS04, good work.....

 

[throwedindagame]

Originally Posted by Patmc13

IF the big 3 go under we go from recession to depression...1/10 of American jobs are related to the auto industry...3 million jobs would be lost within the first year of collapse...

/thread,

 

[optimusadl]

Originally Posted by bangtcg

%*+%#$* union people. they really piss me off when it comes to the auto industry. hey butt holes you dont deserve 50k for assembling a car.

You do realize 50 grand is really not alot of money.

If you pay people 30K to build cars and other labor jobs. Then who is supposed to buy the expensive goods?

 

[wrukus]

i dont pretend to know everything about unions and who's at fault. what i do know is that the big 3 had years before now to correct the crap they weremaking and didnt. why did all these hybrids and cars with better mileage pop up all the sudden? you telling me they just figured it out? surely they couldhave competed with the quality of the foreign car makers earlier, and they didnt. plain and simple. hondas have had killer gas mileage for ages. i'm inthe midwest, i've worked in the auto industry, and so do plenty of my loved ones. i hate to see the job loss, but they did do it to themselves.

 

[rko2004]

Originally Posted by OptimusADL

Originally Posted by bangtcg

%*+%#$* union people. they really piss me off when it comes to the auto industry. hey butt holes you dont deserve 50k for assembling a car.

You do realize 50 grand is really not alot of money.

If you pay people 30K to build cars and other labor jobs. Then who is supposed to buy the expensive goods?

Cosign. Maybe the big wigs at top don't deserve the MILLIONS they get. That makes perfect sense. The boss gets Millions and Millions but theworker doesn't deserve at least 50 K. There was/is enough to go around.

 

[patmc13]

Originally Posted by ThrowedInDaGame

Originally Posted by Patmc13

IF the big 3 go under we go from recession to depression...1/10 of American jobs are related to the auto industry...3 million jobs would be lost within the first year of collapse...

/thread,

THANK-YOU...

 

[twig1026]

Originally Posted by Patmc13

Originally Posted by ThrowedInDaGame

Originally Posted by Patmc13

IF the big 3 go under we go from recession to depression...1/10 of American jobs are related to the auto industry...3 million jobs would be lost within the first year of collapse...

/thread,

THANK-YOU...

Seriously...thats not even a joke if thats a valid number. I don't even want to see what would happen in that event

 

[lurkin2long]

-One out of every 10 American jobs depends on the auto industry
-If all three U.S. automakers were to cease operationsthe U.S. economy would lose 2.95 million direct and indirect jobs in the first year.

 

[patmc13]

Originally Posted by Twig1026

Originally Posted by Patmc13

Originally Posted by ThrowedInDaGame

Originally Posted by Patmc13

IF the big 3 go under we go from recession to depression...1/10 of American jobs are related to the auto industry...3 million jobs would be lost within the first year of collapse...

/thread,

THANK-YOU...

Seriously...thats not even a joke if thats a valid number. I don't even want to see what would happen in that event

Confirmed number my friend and it is no joke...Detroit will basically become a ghost town...

 

[kkennethj]

The big 3 falling and us getting into a deeper recession may be for the best. All we're doing by feeding them the money at the moment is prolonging theirdownfall. Down the road its confirmed that the big 3 will as for more money in the upcoming months and a larger amount. Yes, its terrible that millions willlose jobs in connection to the auto industry but in the long run down the road it maybe for the best.
Let a failing company fall and let it rebuild itself for the better in the future. All the govt doing by feeding falling company "borrowed" money issetting up our nation down for a greater collapse. People need to accept our current state and let economics take its course. Nations fall and are reborn intostronger nations. Why prolong the life of a failing system? But yeah it sucks for everyone with the unemployment rate sky rocketing but spending more money wedon't have is not going to get us out of this situation when spending excessive amounts of money we don't have is what got us here in the first place.

Even with the bill being dead the bush admin is talking about tapping into the Wallstreet bailout's 700bil to help the big 3.

Not saying unions are bad, they helped build our nation. But yeah the UAW willing to sacrifice their company rather then to sacrifice some benefits kinda sayssomething.

 

[throwedindagame]

Well....

This is all speculation, but lets do a worst case scenario doomsday Scenario.

The big 3 all fail within 2-3 years. What becomes of NASCAR and all those engineering jobs, advertising/marketing, media broadcasting, etc.
Nobody is going to watch a bunch of Hondas or Toyotas make laps lol. Nascar usually has cars that are available on the market for their "stock cars".So, we'd have what modded Accords, Camry, and Altimas? FWD FTL.

What about RWD? G35? Luxury brands = No Go for NASCAR.

R.I.P NASCAR?

 

[lurkin2long]

Originally Posted by ThrowedInDaGame

Well....

This is all speculation, but lets do a worst case scenario doomsday Scenario.

The big 3 all fail within 2-3 years. What becomes of NASCAR and all those engineering jobs, advertising/marketing, media broadcasting, etc.
Nobody is going to watch a bunch of Hondas or Toyotas make laps lol. Nascar usually has cars that are available on the market for their "stock cars". So, we'd have what modded Accords, Camry, and Altimas? FWD FTL.

What about RWD? G35? Luxury brands = No Go for NASCAR.

R.I.P NASCAR?

who cares about nascar.

waste of gas

 

[patmc13]

Originally Posted by ThrowedInDaGame

Well....

This is all speculation, but lets do a worst case scenario doomsday Scenario.

The big 3 all fail within 2-3 years. What becomes of NASCAR and all those engineering jobs, advertising/marketing, media broadcasting, etc.
Nobody is going to watch a bunch of Hondas or Toyotas make laps lol. Nascar usually has cars that are available on the market for their "stock cars". So, we'd have what modded Accords, Camry, and Altimas? FWD FTL.

What about RWD? G35? Luxury brands = No Go for NASCAR.

R.I.P NASCAR?

Good point...
This would be a huge loss also...NASCAR brings in ALOT of money...

 

[718stylez]

28 bucks an hour for basic line work?!?
28 bucks for all line work, save skilled trades, basic or not. I dare you to work on the bumper line for a few weeks and tell me it's not worth it. The figures now are more like 14-16 bucks for all incoming assembly workers, and the Detroit 3 are doing all in their power to get more of these
the fact that Detroit allowed this to go on for so long is enough in my opinion. for years these guys have blown through billions in monthlyexpenses, often selling cars for losses. How does this make financial sense? i thought the point of capitalism was to sell a good or service at a profit. themarket has spoken and 28 bucks IS too much money to pay for this job.

excluding benefits.
People shouldn't get healthcare? The physical toll that auto assembly work takes on your body is huge, the Detroit 3 would be irresponsible to take people on for this kind of work and then leave them out to pasture, although Viagra claims, etc. are ridiculous. The problem with this country is that we've placed the burden of providing such things on the private sector. In Japan, and Canada (where the American automakers have a ton of plants), all basic services and many others are provided by the government. In my mind, you can either be pro-union, or pro-universal healthcare. Pick one.
i never said people shouldn't get healthcare. i was simply giving an accurate portrayal of the compensation package. a lot of people have beenquoting workers getting paid $70/hour which is misleading. That 70/hour figure often includes healthcare/401k and or pension contributions/benefits to deceasedspouses etc.

9% annual raises?!?
Can you read? 9% from 2003-2006, which seems to be in line with the income increases for workers across the private sector.
yes i can read, between the lines to. Quote me another financially compromised industry that has paid its workers a 9% annual increase betweenthose years. Most major corporations (non financial) cap raises at 3-4% maybe 5% on an outstanding year. After that you usually need a title change to approachanything in the 9% range.

Thats [sic] almost 56k base and the majority of them get a decent amount of overtime...and this is Detroit
There's not a whole not of overtime right now. And this is Detroit, Flint, Lansing, all of Michigan. It's also Ontario, Ohio, Indiana, Missouri, Tennesee, Delaware, New York, Pennsylvania, and others. Don't get caught in the "it's not me" mentality.
Im not getting caught in the 'its not me' mentality. My point is that the cost of living in Michigan is SUBSTANTIALLY less than it is inNY/NJ etc. Usually wages reflect regional cost of living standards. I'd presume that 56k goes a lot further in Michigan than it does in more expensiveareas of the country yet they are getting paid similarly. 56k might be about the equivalent of 60-65k in those states...for doing line work. im sorry, iwon't apologize for thinking that is grossly overpaid.

Screw the UAW and screw the Big 3(2).
Screw you.
thanks.

The market has spoken, there's always another company around the corner to step in to fill the void.
I hope you maintain this smug attitude when your job is on the chopping block. Any company that fills the void will send all profits and a fair amount of taxes to the home country, will have limited competition and less incentive to do better than others (and likely fall into similar traps as the Detroit 3), and will have no incentive to pay as well as they do now. The cats in the south making $18/hr will blink and be making $11/hr. Other industries will suffer: local entrepreneurs will see drastically reduced revenues and may shut their doors. But hey - the market has spoken.
I'm not being smug, and understand it sucks to be out of work. But whose to say that there can't be new American car manufacturers thatare leaner, more efficient and are free from union obligations? This point is all speculative.

I wonder why we attack our auto companies for paying too much and not keeping pace with the market, but didn't examine more closely the business model of some of these financial companies, where immediate profit trumped long-term sustainability and damned-near killed them. Where companies were deceptive in their practices and paid their workers exponentially more than any manufacturer. Why we hate the guy who saved for 20 years to buy a fishing boat, but will bend over backwards to save the hedge fund manager who bought a yacht before he turned 30. Any Wharton MBA should've realized that when you lend some guy making $30,000 a year enough money to buy a $500,000 house, he'll default at some point; but he won't lend a multi-billion multinational enough to get through the year. I guess . . .
I dont think we hate that guy who saved for years and lived within his means, and i can see the point that you're trying to make. My issuewith detroit is that this has been a long time coming. almost 30 years. In the 1970's when there was an energy crisis it was pretty obvious that securingenergy and using it efficiently would be a cornerstone of US national security. Yet when the crisis eased and gas was cheap, all that was thrown to the wind.

When the Japanese first introduced compact cars, Detroit mocked them, saying that American's would never buy. Then Americans began to buy them. Detroitresponded by saying , "well maybe Americans will buy small compact Japanese cars but never mid and full size sedans like Cadillacs, Buicksetc"...they were wrong again. Then the Japanese and Korean car manufacturers began to really get into car fuel efficiency while Detroit sat by complacent,even rolling out the dreaded 9mpg Hummer after 2001. Talk about being on the wrong side of a trend.

I want Detroit to succeed. I wish/hope that we will have a somewhat strong and prosperous manufacturing sector. But, logically i think to myself, if Detroithas been so wrong for so long, what makes us think that they will get it right now? We bailed Chrysler out in 1979. Daimler Benz couldn't make it work andnow it looks like Cerebus can't do it either. At what point do we stop?

 

[tmukg21]

its Detroit's fault, partly at least. They were not making cars people want to drive. By that I mean, nice/cool cars. I never see anything

, really. If so, its usually a remake or something.

Take Ford for example. Right now, think of one car you would sign your name on a loan for.

Still, we have to bail them out. 3 Million jobs is a lot of jobs to lose.

 

[deuce king]

R.I.P NASCAR?
I was just about to bring up the point about NASCAR, good job. Also, I think people are failing to thing about the timeline of the Big 3 goingunder. If this were to happen perhaps maybe 4-6 years ago when the economy was in better shape then maybe more people would be open to them falling but RIGHTNOW with the way its seems like our economy is hanging by a shoe string for lack of a better statement WE CAN'T AFFORD to have this industry cave in on us,not right now at least. Again if this were to occur and any other point in time or near future when things are better for the country as a whole, then maybethis topic could be open for discussion.

 

[718stylez]

^^^i agree

we need to bail them out...i just hope that they get their act together

 

[lurkin2long]

Originally Posted by 718stylez

^^^i agree

we need to bail them out...i just hope that they get their act together

so what if we bail them out and they dont get their act together....................

then what?

 

[i3allistic]

Originally Posted by tmukg21

its Detroit's fault, partly at least. They were not making cars people want to drive. By that I mean, nice/cool cars. I never see anything

, really. If so, its usually a remake or something.

Take Ford for example. Right now, think of one car you would sign your name on a loan for.

Still, we have to bail them out. 3 Million jobs is a lot of jobs to lose.

when i saw the FORD FLEX at the auto show, im like cool they trying to compete with the Scion xB, but when i looked closer at the price tag i was

...asking 45k for loaded model, and starting price is around 26k ...

 

[nothingbefore]

Originally Posted by lurkin2long

Originally Posted by 718stylez

^^^i agree

we need to bail them out...i just hope that they get their act together

so what if we bail them out and they dont get their act together....................

then what?

WORD LET THE POWER FAIL


ITS OVER LET IT GOOOOO

THE OLD TIMES IS FALLING APART AS YOU CAN SEE


MANNNN


ALL THIS FAIL IS LEADING TO GREAT CHANGE

 

[trueshotaura]

So you're telling me I paid ALMOST 1.5 Trillion between the Iraq War and Wall-street last month and I can't give a 15B LOAN to blue collar workers? Idon't know why so many NTers have this "race to the bottom" mentality regarding wages. That $30 an hour or so is MIDDLE CLASS. It's justenough to have a family and provide for them. It also takes a real toll on your body over the long term. Yeah GM did some stupid things like selling their fuelcell battery patent to Chevron for $100 Billion (If anyone's seen the film "Who Killed The Electric Car?" BUT at this point we need to doeverything possible from letting our economy collapse.

 

[trueshotaura]

Originally Posted by lurkin2long

Originally Posted by 718stylez

^^^i agree

we need to bail them out...i just hope that they get their act together

so what if we bail them out and they dont get their act together....................

then what?

$15 Billion is a SMALL risk compared to what could happen if they fail. Think of it like this.. $15 Billion is only 1 month of Iraq.