Bill O'Reilly...tell me you can do better than this... you can't be this stupid...

[dame theory]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

...Research contradictions...HOMIE THATS WHAT I JUST DID!!! You delivered your strongest arguments and they ALL had fallacies in them. SHEER BLATANT BIASED ILLOGICAL PROPOSITIONS. Yet you still claim i'm not reading the information. bruh, I read EVERY link you put up and showed you your OWN history and yet i'm still the one that doesn't know anything? ... smiley: eyes miss me with that. You are tripping.

This, here, is not research.

I am not a scholar.� Neither are you.� You spent way more time criticizing me rather than criticizing Islam. All the times you mentioned contradictions in Islam were broad and general. Never did you cite specifics that I could actually formulate a response from.

So if Judaism and Christianity were at one time Islam...why are they so different?


There are similarities and differences.� There are many similarities which you are disregarding here. 

You say god never left and civilization without the opp. to worship him... so did God get it wrong the first two times??


I don't understand the question. Are you referring to the Christians and the Jews? They were guided by God.

How many "true" paths did he make then?


Islam is the only true path. The purpose of Muhammad receiving messages from God was to send down the final transmission from God to man until the day of judgment.

He already failed twice at it and changed it.


No, that's not the argument. According to the scripture, God is all knowing. This is just the narrative. The way things were supposed to turn out. The various tests of man.

How old is the earth buddy?


There is no conflict between Islam and science in this matter.

So if the oldest man is in the Quran...and modern islam as followed by the Quran is only 1400 years old...then the Quran can't have the oldest story of a man in it.


I didn't explain this well. The Abrahamic texts all contain the story of Adam and Eve, although they have differences. God talks to Adam in the Qur'an, and Adam is a follower of God. Adam is also the first man. Therefore, Islam has been in existence since the beginning of man.

Plus you're just flat out wrong here ALL ancient texts claim to have the word of God


Not true. Yes, there are many sections of the Bible and the Torah where it'll say "And God said..." but only the Qur'an out of the 3 Abrahamic faiths claims to be the word of God throughout.

All these little questions are avoiding the big picture of religion as a whole.� They have absolutely zero significance in the broad scheme of things.� I can talk to you for hours and hours and hours.� And I might be able to convince you that, yeah, Islam does have a pretty good model for society.�

But that doesn't make it the right religion.� It just makes it a pretty good model for society.

You will not be able to go through Islam and find logic to everything.� For example, all Muslims must pay a Zakat, which is a mandatory charity.� 2.5% of the money you made.� You're never going to be able to find the logic behind that value.� And that's where an element of faith comes in.

If you have time, this is a good documentary that explains the beginnings of Islam.


Tell those similarities to those who divide themselves among the three abrahamic religions every single day. You aren't making a point here. All religions come from the same stories that come from more of the same stories that come from more of the same stories. In so much as you can dismiss another religion you can dismiss ALL of them. 



So if according to you Christianity and Judaism were at one time "Islam" then why didn't God just lead them to Islam? Seems like an awful trick to basically send half of the people in the living world to the wrong faith, wouldn't you say so? Especially when one believes in the Trinity and the other in a single god. Handle that issue. 




Here you go again...saying Islam is the ONE true path. EVERY OTHER RELIGION SAYS THEY'RE THE ONE TRUE PATH. How do you think you're so special? Just cause it says it is??? Prove it! Islam is not unique. It is just the same as every other religion! Why can't you understand this. Especially to make the bold claim that God kept sending ya'll messages close to 600-700 years after christanity and judaism had been booming. Sounds like ya'll got ya'll own little message and decided to break off into your own sect and wanted to claim your own "divine" intervention. Jews say they are gods chosen people... but you claim you're gods chosen people. Just another perversion of faith molded to fit your own agenda. You just aren't seeing it. You say the same things other religions say yet your religion is right? 




So God made people believe in the wrong faith... TWICE...then came back and fixed it the THIRD time? How perfect is God then? He is all-knowing too? Why didn't he know to get it right the first time? Then if he knows all how come dude didn't know people would fall prey to the wrong religion? Dude messed it up twice and finally got it right? Then you have this argument that well... he was testing his people to follow the true faith of islam... uh... what? How come it took 600 years to pass that test? What if you didn't live long enough to see your test score? Its not like you'd ever get to find out if you were right... Then you say, this is the way he meant the narrative to turn out. Who wrote that? God? or the guys who wrote the Quran? Sounds like the latter to me. Especially if they say... nah those religions got it wrong and failed god's test. We got it right and we are the final receivers of the word of god. Tell that to Joseph Smith who found some "golden plates" with God's word on it in the 1800s...by himself...in his backyard....that no one has seen since..., marched west and started the Mormon Church. Sounds like God came back and left ya'll out of the picture. 




Thats right because earlier you claimed that the first man was a muslim (

)...so it doesn't matter how old the earth is. So...if you believe in evolution...at what point did the first man become a muslim? Were neaderthals muslims? australopithecines? @%!% erectus? @%!% habilus? what about those guys/girls? 




Yeah... you didn't explain that at all...you think Adam was the first man? So much for that bio major. So you mean to tell me that Adam and Eve was an Islamic story and not a christian one? Wow... try telling that to any christian next sunday. Also your use of "therefore" doesn't solve anything. First you claim Islam has been around since the beginning of man...which you STILL have not contested my point about Romans, Greeks, Sumerians, Polynesians, Egyptians, etc. so...clearly theres something inconsistent here. THEN heres the fun part, Adam was the first muslim...but it took almost 4,000 years for modern christianity to start...then 600 years after that for islam to start. WHAT took ya'll so long?  Ya'll couldn't get it right the first time? Sounds fishy homie. If adam was the first muslim why didn't we start with islam first?




Bruh...go on the street and ask anyone about the bible or torah if God really said that. 99% of them will say yes. If anyone says No, they're an atheist/agnostic. Youre just outright lying now and its getting out of hand. Plus, I can just as easily say "god said this" and that just makes it so? What the hell? I can say i'm the son of god right now... and thats all it should take for you to believe me. MO MATIK... I AM THE SON OF GOD. See how easy that is? 




So if that doesn't make it the right religion, why do you think its so good for society then? Especially if it assumes divine ordinance. Shouldn't it be perfect then? WHY ARE YOU CONTRADICTING YOURSELF??? So where contradictions exist...we just ignore them right? We don't just abandon them and try to come up with a better system? What a nonsensical comment. I expected better from this debate. You got mad saying I don't attack religion but I attack you...but its hard for me to even say something about the faith you subscribe to when its full of this many holes. Whats worse is that you take an attack on your faith to be an attack on you. Homie, I don't know you. I just know what you believe is really really weak. 




DING DING DING. Why would you expect me or anyone else to subscribe to something in which all if it was not thorough. So I'm supposed to take EVERYTHING even if it doesn't make sense? HELLLL NAW. Christians pay a Zakat too. Its called Tithing. A waste of money to go towards the sense of purification and offering to god. This money could go towards charities actually helping other people and sponsoring costs of significant research or even into your own pockets on rainy days. BUT WAIT. Islam is the archetype... Whatever. Keep that bunk #%% argument. You have yet again posed something that makes NO sense. I thought you would actually have something different to say this time. 







Posting a video on the origin of islam doesn't make it make any more sense than it already doesn't. I'd watch it for strictly historical references. I could care less about following it and thats how I implore you to do as well. 

 

[toanotherlevel]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether that statement is subjective or not sir....

 

[dame theory]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

...Research contradictions...HOMIE THATS WHAT I JUST DID!!! You delivered your strongest arguments and they ALL had fallacies in them. SHEER BLATANT BIASED ILLOGICAL PROPOSITIONS. Yet you still claim i'm not reading the information. bruh, I read EVERY link you put up and showed you your OWN history and yet i'm still the one that doesn't know anything? ... smiley: eyes miss me with that. You are tripping.

This, here, is not research.

I am not a scholar.� Neither are you.� You spent way more time criticizing me rather than criticizing Islam. All the times you mentioned contradictions in Islam were broad and general. Never did you cite specifics that I could actually formulate a response from.

So if Judaism and Christianity were at one time Islam...why are they so different?


There are similarities and differences.� There are many similarities which you are disregarding here. 

You say god never left and civilization without the opp. to worship him... so did God get it wrong the first two times??


I don't understand the question. Are you referring to the Christians and the Jews? They were guided by God.

How many "true" paths did he make then?


Islam is the only true path. The purpose of Muhammad receiving messages from God was to send down the final transmission from God to man until the day of judgment.

He already failed twice at it and changed it.


No, that's not the argument. According to the scripture, God is all knowing. This is just the narrative. The way things were supposed to turn out. The various tests of man.

How old is the earth buddy?


There is no conflict between Islam and science in this matter.

So if the oldest man is in the Quran...and modern islam as followed by the Quran is only 1400 years old...then the Quran can't have the oldest story of a man in it.


I didn't explain this well. The Abrahamic texts all contain the story of Adam and Eve, although they have differences. God talks to Adam in the Qur'an, and Adam is a follower of God. Adam is also the first man. Therefore, Islam has been in existence since the beginning of man.

Plus you're just flat out wrong here ALL ancient texts claim to have the word of God


Not true. Yes, there are many sections of the Bible and the Torah where it'll say "And God said..." but only the Qur'an out of the 3 Abrahamic faiths claims to be the word of God throughout.

All these little questions are avoiding the big picture of religion as a whole.� They have absolutely zero significance in the broad scheme of things.� I can talk to you for hours and hours and hours.� And I might be able to convince you that, yeah, Islam does have a pretty good model for society.�

But that doesn't make it the right religion.� It just makes it a pretty good model for society.

You will not be able to go through Islam and find logic to everything.� For example, all Muslims must pay a Zakat, which is a mandatory charity.� 2.5% of the money you made.� You're never going to be able to find the logic behind that value.� And that's where an element of faith comes in.

If you have time, this is a good documentary that explains the beginnings of Islam.


Tell those similarities to those who divide themselves among the three abrahamic religions every single day. You aren't making a point here. All religions come from the same stories that come from more of the same stories that come from more of the same stories. In so much as you can dismiss another religion you can dismiss ALL of them. 



So if according to you Christianity and Judaism were at one time "Islam" then why didn't God just lead them to Islam? Seems like an awful trick to basically send half of the people in the living world to the wrong faith, wouldn't you say so? Especially when one believes in the Trinity and the other in a single god. Handle that issue. 




Here you go again...saying Islam is the ONE true path. EVERY OTHER RELIGION SAYS THEY'RE THE ONE TRUE PATH. How do you think you're so special? Just cause it says it is??? Prove it! Islam is not unique. It is just the same as every other religion! Why can't you understand this. Especially to make the bold claim that God kept sending ya'll messages close to 600-700 years after christanity and judaism had been booming. Sounds like ya'll got ya'll own little message and decided to break off into your own sect and wanted to claim your own "divine" intervention. Jews say they are gods chosen people... but you claim you're gods chosen people. Just another perversion of faith molded to fit your own agenda. You just aren't seeing it. You say the same things other religions say yet your religion is right? 




So God made people believe in the wrong faith... TWICE...then came back and fixed it the THIRD time? How perfect is God then? He is all-knowing too? Why didn't he know to get it right the first time? Then if he knows all how come dude didn't know people would fall prey to the wrong religion? Dude messed it up twice and finally got it right? Then you have this argument that well... he was testing his people to follow the true faith of islam... uh... what? How come it took 600 years to pass that test? What if you didn't live long enough to see your test score? Its not like you'd ever get to find out if you were right... Then you say, this is the way he meant the narrative to turn out. Who wrote that? God? or the guys who wrote the Quran? Sounds like the latter to me. Especially if they say... nah those religions got it wrong and failed god's test. We got it right and we are the final receivers of the word of god. Tell that to Joseph Smith who found some "golden plates" with God's word on it in the 1800s...by himself...in his backyard....that no one has seen since..., marched west and started the Mormon Church. Sounds like God came back and left ya'll out of the picture. 




Thats right because earlier you claimed that the first man was a muslim (

)...so it doesn't matter how old the earth is. So...if you believe in evolution...at what point did the first man become a muslim? Were neaderthals muslims? australopithecines? @%!% erectus? @%!% habilus? what about those guys/girls? 




Yeah... you didn't explain that at all...you think Adam was the first man? So much for that bio major. So you mean to tell me that Adam and Eve was an Islamic story and not a christian one? Wow... try telling that to any christian next sunday. Also your use of "therefore" doesn't solve anything. First you claim Islam has been around since the beginning of man...which you STILL have not contested my point about Romans, Greeks, Sumerians, Polynesians, Egyptians, etc. so...clearly theres something inconsistent here. THEN heres the fun part, Adam was the first muslim...but it took almost 4,000 years for modern christianity to start...then 600 years after that for islam to start. WHAT took ya'll so long?  Ya'll couldn't get it right the first time? Sounds fishy homie. If adam was the first muslim why didn't we start with islam first?




Bruh...go on the street and ask anyone about the bible or torah if God really said that. 99% of them will say yes. If anyone says No, they're an atheist/agnostic. Youre just outright lying now and its getting out of hand. Plus, I can just as easily say "god said this" and that just makes it so? What the hell? I can say i'm the son of god right now... and thats all it should take for you to believe me. MO MATIK... I AM THE SON OF GOD. See how easy that is? 




So if that doesn't make it the right religion, why do you think its so good for society then? Especially if it assumes divine ordinance. Shouldn't it be perfect then? WHY ARE YOU CONTRADICTING YOURSELF??? So where contradictions exist...we just ignore them right? We don't just abandon them and try to come up with a better system? What a nonsensical comment. I expected better from this debate. You got mad saying I don't attack religion but I attack you...but its hard for me to even say something about the faith you subscribe to when its full of this many holes. Whats worse is that you take an attack on your faith to be an attack on you. Homie, I don't know you. I just know what you believe is really really weak. 




DING DING DING. Why would you expect me or anyone else to subscribe to something in which all if it was not thorough. So I'm supposed to take EVERYTHING even if it doesn't make sense? HELLLL NAW. Christians pay a Zakat too. Its called Tithing. A waste of money to go towards the sense of purification and offering to god. This money could go towards charities actually helping other people and sponsoring costs of significant research or even into your own pockets on rainy days. BUT WAIT. Islam is the archetype... Whatever. Keep that bunk #%% argument. You have yet again posed something that makes NO sense. I thought you would actually have something different to say this time. 







Posting a video on the origin of islam doesn't make it make any more sense than it already doesn't. I'd watch it for strictly historical references. I could care less about following it and thats how I implore you to do as well. 

 

[toanotherlevel]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether that statement is subjective or not sir....

 

[mo matik]

Posting a video on the origin of islam doesn't make it make any more sense than it already doesn't. I'd watch it for strictly historical references. I could care less about following it and thats how I implore you to do as well.


Why do you continue to expect me to entertain this discussion when you take this kind of approach?

 

[mo matik]

Posting a video on the origin of islam doesn't make it make any more sense than it already doesn't. I'd watch it for strictly historical references. I could care less about following it and thats how I implore you to do as well.


Why do you continue to expect me to entertain this discussion when you take this kind of approach?

 

[dame theory]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Posting a video on the origin of islam doesn't make it make any more sense than it already doesn't. I'd watch it for strictly historical references. I could care less about following it and thats how I implore you to do as well.

Why do you continue to expect me to entertain this discussion when you take this kind of approach?
If I watched a movie on the story of Ulysses and his trip home in the Iliad am I supposed to believe ALL of that happened or watch it for strictly cultural relevance and history?

Or maybe if I read a book about a boy witch who goes off to wizard school in england with a scar on his head, I guess that makes it all real to you. 

I would ONLY watch that for entertainment and historical edification. Conversational topics. I'm not about to watch a movie on islam and think that its as true as some dude being swallowed by a whale, a hippie walking on water, and a man feeding thousands with one bread and one fish. Especially the part where your prophet just jettisons into the heavens when hes done. How? He just goes up there. 

I commend you though. Only someone who was completely unwilling to ask themselves if all this crap was even POSSIBLE knowing what you supposedly know about science would believe this stuff. Complete intellectual dishonesty. But hey, do you. You know what it is that you aim to do here. I don't. I'd just rather not life my life based on a fairy tale. 

I bet you don't believe in the loch ness monster though...or thor...or odin... 

I also like how when I refute your points you only address one of them. 

Its cool. You won't lose your religion overnight. You'll just wake up a better man for it tomorrow. Start asking questions and you'll really see !%%@ for what it is. 

I just wish you would identify those contradictions. If all of you all think you're special...who goes to hell? everyone else or all of you? Do you go to each others hell?

 

[dame theory]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Posting a video on the origin of islam doesn't make it make any more sense than it already doesn't. I'd watch it for strictly historical references. I could care less about following it and thats how I implore you to do as well.

Why do you continue to expect me to entertain this discussion when you take this kind of approach?
If I watched a movie on the story of Ulysses and his trip home in the Iliad am I supposed to believe ALL of that happened or watch it for strictly cultural relevance and history?

Or maybe if I read a book about a boy witch who goes off to wizard school in england with a scar on his head, I guess that makes it all real to you. 

I would ONLY watch that for entertainment and historical edification. Conversational topics. I'm not about to watch a movie on islam and think that its as true as some dude being swallowed by a whale, a hippie walking on water, and a man feeding thousands with one bread and one fish. Especially the part where your prophet just jettisons into the heavens when hes done. How? He just goes up there. 

I commend you though. Only someone who was completely unwilling to ask themselves if all this crap was even POSSIBLE knowing what you supposedly know about science would believe this stuff. Complete intellectual dishonesty. But hey, do you. You know what it is that you aim to do here. I don't. I'd just rather not life my life based on a fairy tale. 

I bet you don't believe in the loch ness monster though...or thor...or odin... 

I also like how when I refute your points you only address one of them. 

Its cool. You won't lose your religion overnight. You'll just wake up a better man for it tomorrow. Start asking questions and you'll really see !%%@ for what it is. 

I just wish you would identify those contradictions. If all of you all think you're special...who goes to hell? everyone else or all of you? Do you go to each others hell?

 

[antonlavey]

Dame is hitting people with way too much reality. Reality is overwhelming, most humans spend their entire lifetime tryna escape it in one way or another.

 

[antonlavey]

Dame is hitting people with way too much reality. Reality is overwhelming, most humans spend their entire lifetime tryna escape it in one way or another.

 

[boss unk ii]

The bible was written many a fortnights after the time of "God," and passed through the hands of many story-tellers. Is it honestly THAT hard to believe that the bible was written in essence per say, to mold the "perfect society?" I fully realize and understand that my opinion is irrelevant and spurs debate, but open up your mind people! The "Devil" and "Hell" were included in the bible to keep people holistic, and not stray away from the righteous path of "God." We are all heavily influenced by our parents' religious and political beliefs. (Like it or not) Our parents were influenced from their parents, and so on and so forth. Break away from what society and church has taught you about religion. Open your mind folks, all I'm trying to say.

 

[boss unk ii]

The bible was written many a fortnights after the time of "God," and passed through the hands of many story-tellers. Is it honestly THAT hard to believe that the bible was written in essence per say, to mold the "perfect society?" I fully realize and understand that my opinion is irrelevant and spurs debate, but open up your mind people! The "Devil" and "Hell" were included in the bible to keep people holistic, and not stray away from the righteous path of "God." We are all heavily influenced by our parents' religious and political beliefs. (Like it or not) Our parents were influenced from their parents, and so on and so forth. Break away from what society and church has taught you about religion. Open your mind folks, all I'm trying to say.

 

[dame theory]

 

[dame theory]

 

[mo matik]

You asked me to defend my faith. I tried. My goal here was to try and at least get you to realize that there are legitimate arguments on both side. I failed. And I'm convinced that was going to happen regardless, because you never once gave me any legitimacy despite explicitly asking for me to participate. Instead, you actually believe that, despite my honest efforts of learning about various alternatives to Islam, I'm just that ignorant to the truth. Believe that. But it's the fact that I have done my research in various alternatives is what makes my faith in Islam is so strong.

 

[mo matik]

You asked me to defend my faith. I tried. My goal here was to try and at least get you to realize that there are legitimate arguments on both side. I failed. And I'm convinced that was going to happen regardless, because you never once gave me any legitimacy despite explicitly asking for me to participate. Instead, you actually believe that, despite my honest efforts of learning about various alternatives to Islam, I'm just that ignorant to the truth. Believe that. But it's the fact that I have done my research in various alternatives is what makes my faith in Islam is so strong.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by Boss Unk II

The bible was written many a fortnights after the time of "God," and passed through the hands of many story-tellers. Is it honestly THAT hard to believe that the bible was written in essence per say, to mold the "perfect society?" I fully realize and understand that my opinion is irrelevant and spurs debate, but open up your mind people! The "Devil" and "Hell" were included in the bible to keep people holistic, and not stray away from the righteous path of "God." We are all heavily influenced by our parents' religious and political beliefs. (Like it or not) Our parents were influenced from their parents, and so on and so forth. Break away from what society and church has taught you about religion. Open your mind folks, all I'm trying to say.

-There is evidence from the bible that shows "hell" as we think about it is not an actual place you go to when you die. The bible never described such a place.

-Mold a perfect society with slavery, wars, violence, misogyny, seperatism and hatred (many elements of which are found in religious texts.)

-Stories passed down from generation to generation and edited beyond recognition to fit agendas and perfect it as a tool of mind control.

-Not everything you learn from your parents and their parent is righteous. Many white people in this country have racist parents and great grandparents who owned slaves. Think about it.

-The devil perpetuates scapegoatism and a lack of accountibility for one's OWN actions and poor decisions.



Religion is a sham, personal spirituality I'm more open to.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by Boss Unk II

The bible was written many a fortnights after the time of "God," and passed through the hands of many story-tellers. Is it honestly THAT hard to believe that the bible was written in essence per say, to mold the "perfect society?" I fully realize and understand that my opinion is irrelevant and spurs debate, but open up your mind people! The "Devil" and "Hell" were included in the bible to keep people holistic, and not stray away from the righteous path of "God." We are all heavily influenced by our parents' religious and political beliefs. (Like it or not) Our parents were influenced from their parents, and so on and so forth. Break away from what society and church has taught you about religion. Open your mind folks, all I'm trying to say.

-There is evidence from the bible that shows "hell" as we think about it is not an actual place you go to when you die. The bible never described such a place.

-Mold a perfect society with slavery, wars, violence, misogyny, seperatism and hatred (many elements of which are found in religious texts.)

-Stories passed down from generation to generation and edited beyond recognition to fit agendas and perfect it as a tool of mind control.

-Not everything you learn from your parents and their parent is righteous. Many white people in this country have racist parents and great grandparents who owned slaves. Think about it.

-The devil perpetuates scapegoatism and a lack of accountibility for one's OWN actions and poor decisions.



Religion is a sham, personal spirituality I'm more open to.

 

[dame theory]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

You asked me to defend my faith. I tried. My goal here was to try and at least get you to realize that there are legitimate arguments on both side. I failed. And I'm convinced that was going to happen regardless, because you never once gave me any legitimacy despite explicitly asking for me to participate. Instead, you actually believe that, despite my honest efforts of learning about various alternatives to Islam, I'm just that ignorant to the truth. Believe that. But it's the fact that I have done my research in various alternatives is what makes my faith in Islam so strong.

Wrong.
Like I said, i've read A LOT about islam. Probably more than your non-islamic friends. HOWEVER, if by "legitmacy" you mean take it to mean that it is real and it happened... nah homie. I can't do that. None of it makes sense or even gives honest answers for a lot of that stuff...especially in modern standards of the world and socialization. 

Additionally if I neglected your points, I wouldn't have answered EVERY. SINGLE. POINT. you've put up. No one else has done that. Every sentence you've typed i've addressed. How much more attention do you want??? 

You can not expect me to take your argument seriously when you keep contradicting yourself. You claim to follow the true faith, the one faith, the oldest faith. All of that is just wrong and conflicts and whats worse is that YOU KNOW IM RIGHT. You know these contradictions exist. Yet you ignore them. You're turning a blind eye to things that blantantly don't make sense to you. You've been taught to never question your faith. Thats the trick. You're not less of a man for doing so. You're more of an individual. If you can't question something you believe in, is it worth believing? You should be able to justify each and every tenet. Even your history of your religion is contradictory... THE HISTORY... we haven't even touched on the stories or the rules. The history... I suggest you read about other religions. What you should do is debate someone of another faith and learn why you're right. Not because your faith says its right but why one of you is right over the other religion. Then you might find that religion exists to control and limit debate. 

You might have been looking for alternatives...but thats the problem... you should have been looking to see if you should even believe in anything, not just shifting your weight to the legs of another religion. Thats no better than just staying with the original religion you were with. 

 

[dame theory]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

You asked me to defend my faith. I tried. My goal here was to try and at least get you to realize that there are legitimate arguments on both side. I failed. And I'm convinced that was going to happen regardless, because you never once gave me any legitimacy despite explicitly asking for me to participate. Instead, you actually believe that, despite my honest efforts of learning about various alternatives to Islam, I'm just that ignorant to the truth. Believe that. But it's the fact that I have done my research in various alternatives is what makes my faith in Islam so strong.

Wrong.
Like I said, i've read A LOT about islam. Probably more than your non-islamic friends. HOWEVER, if by "legitmacy" you mean take it to mean that it is real and it happened... nah homie. I can't do that. None of it makes sense or even gives honest answers for a lot of that stuff...especially in modern standards of the world and socialization. 

Additionally if I neglected your points, I wouldn't have answered EVERY. SINGLE. POINT. you've put up. No one else has done that. Every sentence you've typed i've addressed. How much more attention do you want??? 

You can not expect me to take your argument seriously when you keep contradicting yourself. You claim to follow the true faith, the one faith, the oldest faith. All of that is just wrong and conflicts and whats worse is that YOU KNOW IM RIGHT. You know these contradictions exist. Yet you ignore them. You're turning a blind eye to things that blantantly don't make sense to you. You've been taught to never question your faith. Thats the trick. You're not less of a man for doing so. You're more of an individual. If you can't question something you believe in, is it worth believing? You should be able to justify each and every tenet. Even your history of your religion is contradictory... THE HISTORY... we haven't even touched on the stories or the rules. The history... I suggest you read about other religions. What you should do is debate someone of another faith and learn why you're right. Not because your faith says its right but why one of you is right over the other religion. Then you might find that religion exists to control and limit debate. 

You might have been looking for alternatives...but thats the problem... you should have been looking to see if you should even believe in anything, not just shifting your weight to the legs of another religion. Thats no better than just staying with the original religion you were with. 

 

[mo matik]

Wrong.


Gasp.

You can not expect me to take your argument seriously when you keep contradicting yourself. You claim to follow the true faith, the one faith, the oldest faith. All of that is just wrong and conflicts


Thanks for the detailed explanation.

YOU KNOW IM RIGHT


orly

You've been taught to never question your faith


Right. I never honestly approached researching my own religion. My father told me to never EVER question it. Of course not.

You might have been looking for alternatives...but thats the problem... you should have been looking to see if you should even believe in anything, not just shifting your weight to the legs of another religion. Thats no better than just staying with the original religion you were with.


Bertrand-ism? Dawkin-ology? I guess they have become faith systems to an extent. (u mad?)

For a man who claims himself to be of science, you sure do have a lot of declarative statements to make about me without actually knowing who I am, or even meeting me. You don't even know my name. Yet you think it's appropriate to pass judgment as if there is no alternative to your own opinions.

You did NOT address many of my points. You did not address what I presented on apostasy laws. You did not address what I presented on Shariah in the article. You did not address the concept of value formation in gambling or other than "subjective. don't believe religion." Same with the idea of abortion in Islam.

You deflected the argument about religion deterring science. I posted the Golden Age just to show you that religion and science can both exist and flourish together. You decided to take something else out of it and change the argument entirely.

 

[mo matik]

Wrong.


Gasp.

You can not expect me to take your argument seriously when you keep contradicting yourself. You claim to follow the true faith, the one faith, the oldest faith. All of that is just wrong and conflicts


Thanks for the detailed explanation.

YOU KNOW IM RIGHT


orly

You've been taught to never question your faith


Right. I never honestly approached researching my own religion. My father told me to never EVER question it. Of course not.

You might have been looking for alternatives...but thats the problem... you should have been looking to see if you should even believe in anything, not just shifting your weight to the legs of another religion. Thats no better than just staying with the original religion you were with.


Bertrand-ism? Dawkin-ology? I guess they have become faith systems to an extent. (u mad?)

For a man who claims himself to be of science, you sure do have a lot of declarative statements to make about me without actually knowing who I am, or even meeting me. You don't even know my name. Yet you think it's appropriate to pass judgment as if there is no alternative to your own opinions.

You did NOT address many of my points. You did not address what I presented on apostasy laws. You did not address what I presented on Shariah in the article. You did not address the concept of value formation in gambling or other than "subjective. don't believe religion." Same with the idea of abortion in Islam.

You deflected the argument about religion deterring science. I posted the Golden Age just to show you that religion and science can both exist and flourish together. You decided to take something else out of it and change the argument entirely.

 

[dame theory]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Wrong.

Gasp.

You can not expect me to take your argument seriously when you keep contradicting yourself. You claim to follow the true faith, the one faith, the oldest faith. All of that is just wrong and conflicts


Thanks for the detailed explanation.

YOU KNOW IM RIGHT


orly

You've been taught to never question your faith


Right. I never honestly approached researching my own religion. My father told me to never EVER question it. Of course not.

You might have been looking for alternatives...but thats the problem... you should have been looking to see if you should even believe in anything, not just shifting your weight to the legs of another religion. Thats no better than just staying with the original religion you were with.


Bertrand-ism? Dawkin-ology? I guess they have become faith systems to an extent. (u mad?)

For a man who claims himself to be of science, you sure do have a lot of declarative statements to make about me without actually knowing who I am, or even meeting me. You don't even know my name. Yet you think it's appropriate to pass judgment as if there is no alternative to your own opinions.

You did NOT address many of my points. You did not address what I presented on apostasy laws. You did not address what I presented on Shariah in the article. You did not address the concept of value formation in gambling or other than "subjective. don't believe religion." Same with the idea of abortion in Islam.

You deflected the argument about religion deterring science. I posted the Golden Age just to show you that religion and science can both exist and flourish together. You decided to take something else out of it and change the argument entirely.

You didn't say anything here. 
You didn't say anything here.
You didn't say anything here.

The strength of faith is that it tells you not to question your religion. Thats how it lingers. It keeps you from challenging what you know and to do everything without questioning your religion. 


These aren't faith systems. If anything they're just continuing the tradition of philosophy that encourages the acceptance of reason over faith and evidence over the divine. They just happen to be outspoken individuals who have committed their lives to reminding us to not fall trap to doctrines that stifle criticism. 



I've already said that I don't know you that well but I know that you believe in doesn't make any sense. I said that here:

Dame Theory wrote:

---

So if that doesn't make it the right religion, why do you think its so good for society then? Especially if it assumes divine ordinance. Shouldn't it be perfect then? WHY ARE YOU CONTRADICTING YOURSELF??? So where contradictions exist...we just ignore them right? We don't just abandon them and try to come up with a better system? What a nonsensical comment. I expected better from this debate. You got mad saying I don't attack religion but I attack you...but its hard for me to even say something about the faith you subscribe to when its full of this many holes. Whats worse is that you take an attack on your faith to be an attack on you. Homie, I don't know you. I just know what you believe is really really weak. 

I've answered all of these before. Let me direct you to my responses.




I addressed Sharia here. 

Dame Theory wrote:

---

Mo Matik wrote:

---

The model of Shariah law is also very logical and pretty appealing. http://www.huffingtonpost...of-shariah_b_701331.html

But I mean becoming a Muslim really changes your culture in a way.  Take for example, gambling.  In Islam, it's prohibited. 

You must be thinking it's ridiculous to prohibit gambling.  And you have reasons x y and z.  But think about the values.  In Islam, by prohibiting gambling it's saying that, on a fundamental level, a man losing his entire savings is a far greater BAD in comparison to a man making some extra money.  That, on a societal level, we should be united enough to think that "it might be good for me to double or triple the money I have in my pocket, but for that to happen there will be people that suffer from addiction, and lose their savings and for that reason it's wrong."  It's really an amazing thing.  

Homie... Sharia Law has for every reasonable tenet like 2-3 unreasonable ones. Re-read that link and the comment section on that....  ESPECIALLY how it is used today. You're kidding me. I'm starting to think you don't read/watch the news. Sharia law is impacting lives negatively around the world...especially in marginalized individuals. Its like me saying "yeah well the rule about wearing seat belts and obeying the speed limit is now optional. Have fun" Only to neglect the fact that people abuse this WIDELY. Its hard to defend something that clearly isn't even used in the same manner that it is revered as. Its not the fact that its the law of your religion, its the fact that its these rules that are adopted by your religion and championed and then used against the people in adverse ways. You gotta see it that way. I'm not going to champion the constitution's original format with 3/5's humans and women not being able to vote. If you wanna support Sharia...cool, but don't say its without fault in its present form. It needs a do-over. 




Here too

Dame Theory wrote:

---

Mo Matik wrote:

---

I never once said that the current application of Shariah is right.  It's not.  Again, understanding the issues in implementation on a political and institutionalized level in the Middle East requires A LOT more than just an understanding of Islam.

Mo Matik wrote:

---

The model of Shariah law is also very logical and pretty appealing. http://www.huffingtonpost...of-shariah_b_701331.html

So...it may be logical and pretty appealing, but its not right. So...its just cool? Its pretty? What is it then? 

 I'm done on this point. I've also addressed this here. I fully addressed the complexity of Sharia. Read my response. And yes, I read your article. 








I address Apostasy partially here. 

Dame Theory wrote:

---

Without a doubt. Muslim scholars have definitely lead to the progression of society 10x fold. No question there. However so have christian societies. So have jewish societies. In fact name one society where there were a significant number of unbelievers before the past 200 years? Can't name one can you? Thats probably because EVERY society killed non-believers. Ask the Catholic Church. Look to past Islamic leaders...shahs...khalifahs...etc. Ya'll are not special homie. Everyone that dared to speak against the church pretty much was doomed from jump. They had no legitimate chance beyond their contributions to society. Religion oppresses opposition and murders dissenters. Like I said, theres power in numbers. Darwin, Newton, Galileo...all active in the church and look at them. All of them had difficultly understanding God in their own way and some of them even suppressed their own opposition to the church in order to continue in society. Great men do Great things. Thats why you had those advancements. Beliefs in God didn't allow that. Great societies allowed that. I'm sure if religions, islam included, didn't have such strict rules against speaking out, there would be a LOT more documented individuals speaking out against religion.... Lets not even get started on the number of religious leaders that are masking their atheism and those living against the tenets of their religion... NUMEROUS. The facts are out there. Look at how our country treat politicians. ALL of them believe in a God? Bull @+#+. They're politicians. They know how to manipulate opinion and to attract attention.  But why get killed when you've got research to do? Plus, much of their research didn't address the origins of life. Once you start going there people go bat-$*$! crazy. Then it all hits the fan. Thats the issue dude. This is the reason that even today you can have doctors that believe in God...why? Because they're not addressing the origins of life and choose to ignore it. They're dealing with the here and now. Patients and disease. Keep your argument in context...

Although I admit that apostasy is "debated" in your religion it does not eliminate the fact that it is currently used to ENFORCE your religion. This is fact. In a majority of muslim countries Apostasy is punishable by death RIGHT NOW. We can talk until we're blue in the face about what we "think" scripture means but that doesn't matter if thats how its being interepreted to involve policy now all over the world. You can't run from that. I could say the original point of the framers was to have a federalist society... oh well. We're talking about here and now. Plus, why debate such a document open to so much interpretation? Oh thats right, its used to justify some really crazy !$##.







I addressed the gambling here and here. 

Dame Theory wrote:

---

Mo Matik wrote:

---

But I chose Islam, for one, it offers tons and tons of practical solutions to issues that plague us today.  Take, for example, abortion.

From the Qur'an God tells us that life is given to the fetus after 4 months of gestation.  There is also a detailed description of embryology.  So a lot of scholars believe that Abortion is legitimate up to this time, because the Shariah system works on a basis of choosing the lesser of 2 wrongs.  

The model of Shariah law is also very logical and pretty appealing. http://www.huffingtonpost...of-shariah_b_701331.html

But I mean becoming a Muslim really changes your culture in a way.  Take for example, gambling.  In Islam, it's prohibited. 

You must be thinking it's ridiculous to prohibit gambling.  And you have reasons x y and z.  But think about the values.  In Islam, by prohibiting gambling it's saying that, on a fundamental level, a man losing his entire savings is a far greater BAD in comparison to a man making some extra money.  That, on a societal level, we should be united enough to think that "it might be good for me to double or triple the money I have in my pocket, but for that to happen there will be people that suffer from addiction, and lose their savings and for that reason it's wrong."  It's really an amazing thing.  

I commend you looking to address your..."concerns"... with society so kudos for that. You're aligning yourself with the positive tenets of religion. No one has a problem with that. 

HOWEVER...No one has a problem with the good stuff in religion...its the subjective commands that seem to claim authority over everyone else...We have problems with things that for one reason or another come from a place of absolutism and are mixed with religion. 




Your views on abortion? Subjective. Don't let a religion tell you what you should think.

Your views on gambling? Subjective. Don't let a religion tell you what you should think. 




Here too: 

Dame Theory wrote:

---

Mo Matik wrote:

---

Your views on gambling? Subjective. Don't let a religion tell you what you should think.

I was talking strictly in societal terms and values.

So we live in America.  And gambling is legal.  And there are tons of people who are addicted and have to go to meetings or whatever.

The Islamic model of society states that a man throwing his life away is WORSE in the large aspect of society than you making some money and having a good weekend.  

But instead, our values in America are different.  Instead, we forget about the people in society who are going to face turmoil and difficulty because it's all about YOU.  And that's wrong in the large scope of things.

But this is really a problem.  You say "Don't let a religion tell you what to think."  People are so afraid of indoctrination.  No matter where you live and where you are brought up, the conditions are going to shape who you are and the way you think and your value set.  And the Islamic value set in this regard is better than our so called advanced modern value set today.  Gambling is just one example.

Well damn homie... Your right. I'm afraid fo anything that claims to be end all be all to all of my problems. It doesn't encourage me to think for myself. I can't disagree or even express my opinion. Especially when newer more accurate information about society and the universe become available. God forbid I actually learn to live life without them. Thats what they DONT want. Its about getting the numbers of the gang up. Theres power in numbers. Every organization will tell you that. Whether or not I value gambling has nothing to do with how I think a people should live their lives. I personally like to think that people are being raised to know the dangers of the world with good parenting and taught about temptation of things that may harm them. However, I refuse to step in and tell that man not to gamble. Part of being mature and grown up is being strong enough to handle the pressures of life and to know when enough is enough. You have to be rooted in yourself and confident in your ability to assess what it is that you need. Religion controls all of that and eliminates the need for people to mature into higher beings of true self actualization. True enlightenment comes from within, not someone telling you how to live your life. And heres the kicker... how DARE you tell me that your "ordained" divine principles that CANT be challenged are better than the rules we have in place today? Theres no room for debate so its automatically lower on the totem pole of autonomy. This is where your bias lives. You can't even see beyond yourself. Its solipsistic and egotistical. Your way or the highway. Why? "God" said so. 









I addressed the Golden Age here.

Dame Theory wrote:

---

Mo Matik wrote:

---

society's development of policy. 

First off, let me shoot down the idea that religion slows down the progress of society by citing the Golden Age of Islam. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...Islamic_Golden_Age  

Muslims were ahead of the rest of the world by 600 years.  Amazing scholars and researchers.  Modern medicine was formed under Islam.  Same with Chemistry.  Anatomy and Physiology too.  Advancements in geography and even immunology.  And a billion other things that affect our lives on a daily basis.  THAT was Islam.  Ibn Sina was actually treating mental disease and psychosis as an actual disease in the 10th century while we finally figured out what to do with them here in this country within the last 200 years.  So don't tell me that religion will deter scientific advancement.  It's simply not true.



Without a doubt. Muslim scholars have definitely lead to the progression of society 10x fold. No question there. However so have christian societies. So have jewish societies. In fact name one society where there were a significant number of unbelievers before the past 200 years? Can't name one can you? Thats probably because EVERY society killed non-believers. Ask the Catholic Church. Look to past Islamic leaders...shahs...khalifahs...etc. Ya'll are not special homie. Everyone that dared to speak against the church pretty much was doomed from jump. They had no legitimate chance beyond their contributions to society. Religion oppresses opposition and murders dissenters. Like I said, theres power in numbers. Darwin, Newton, Galileo...all active in the church and look at them. All of them had difficultly understanding God in their own way and some of them even suppressed their own opposition to the church in order to continue in society. Great men do Great things. Thats why you had those advancements. Beliefs in God didn't allow that. Great societies allowed that. I'm sure if religions, islam included, didn't have such strict rules against speaking out, there would be a LOT more documented individuals speaking out against religion.... Lets not even get started on the number of religious leaders that are masking their atheism and those living against the tenets of their religion... NUMEROUS. The facts are out there. Look at how our country treat politicians. ALL of them believe in a God? Bull @+#+. They're politicians. They know how to manipulate opinion and to attract attention.  But why get killed when you've got research to do? Plus, much of their research didn't address the origins of life. Once you start going there people go bat-$*$! crazy. Then it all hits the fan. Thats the issue dude. This is the reason that even today you can have doctors that believe in God...why? Because they're not addressing the origins of life and choose to ignore it. They're dealing with the here and now. Patients and disease. Keep your argument in context...



Anything else you chose to ignore? 

 

[dame theory]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Wrong.

Gasp.

You can not expect me to take your argument seriously when you keep contradicting yourself. You claim to follow the true faith, the one faith, the oldest faith. All of that is just wrong and conflicts


Thanks for the detailed explanation.

YOU KNOW IM RIGHT


orly

You've been taught to never question your faith


Right. I never honestly approached researching my own religion. My father told me to never EVER question it. Of course not.

You might have been looking for alternatives...but thats the problem... you should have been looking to see if you should even believe in anything, not just shifting your weight to the legs of another religion. Thats no better than just staying with the original religion you were with.


Bertrand-ism? Dawkin-ology? I guess they have become faith systems to an extent. (u mad?)

For a man who claims himself to be of science, you sure do have a lot of declarative statements to make about me without actually knowing who I am, or even meeting me. You don't even know my name. Yet you think it's appropriate to pass judgment as if there is no alternative to your own opinions.

You did NOT address many of my points. You did not address what I presented on apostasy laws. You did not address what I presented on Shariah in the article. You did not address the concept of value formation in gambling or other than "subjective. don't believe religion." Same with the idea of abortion in Islam.

You deflected the argument about religion deterring science. I posted the Golden Age just to show you that religion and science can both exist and flourish together. You decided to take something else out of it and change the argument entirely.

You didn't say anything here. 
You didn't say anything here.
You didn't say anything here.

The strength of faith is that it tells you not to question your religion. Thats how it lingers. It keeps you from challenging what you know and to do everything without questioning your religion. 


These aren't faith systems. If anything they're just continuing the tradition of philosophy that encourages the acceptance of reason over faith and evidence over the divine. They just happen to be outspoken individuals who have committed their lives to reminding us to not fall trap to doctrines that stifle criticism. 



I've already said that I don't know you that well but I know that you believe in doesn't make any sense. I said that here:

Dame Theory wrote:

---

So if that doesn't make it the right religion, why do you think its so good for society then? Especially if it assumes divine ordinance. Shouldn't it be perfect then? WHY ARE YOU CONTRADICTING YOURSELF??? So where contradictions exist...we just ignore them right? We don't just abandon them and try to come up with a better system? What a nonsensical comment. I expected better from this debate. You got mad saying I don't attack religion but I attack you...but its hard for me to even say something about the faith you subscribe to when its full of this many holes. Whats worse is that you take an attack on your faith to be an attack on you. Homie, I don't know you. I just know what you believe is really really weak. 

I've answered all of these before. Let me direct you to my responses.




I addressed Sharia here. 

Dame Theory wrote:

---

Mo Matik wrote:

---

The model of Shariah law is also very logical and pretty appealing. http://www.huffingtonpost...of-shariah_b_701331.html

But I mean becoming a Muslim really changes your culture in a way.  Take for example, gambling.  In Islam, it's prohibited. 

You must be thinking it's ridiculous to prohibit gambling.  And you have reasons x y and z.  But think about the values.  In Islam, by prohibiting gambling it's saying that, on a fundamental level, a man losing his entire savings is a far greater BAD in comparison to a man making some extra money.  That, on a societal level, we should be united enough to think that "it might be good for me to double or triple the money I have in my pocket, but for that to happen there will be people that suffer from addiction, and lose their savings and for that reason it's wrong."  It's really an amazing thing.  

Homie... Sharia Law has for every reasonable tenet like 2-3 unreasonable ones. Re-read that link and the comment section on that....  ESPECIALLY how it is used today. You're kidding me. I'm starting to think you don't read/watch the news. Sharia law is impacting lives negatively around the world...especially in marginalized individuals. Its like me saying "yeah well the rule about wearing seat belts and obeying the speed limit is now optional. Have fun" Only to neglect the fact that people abuse this WIDELY. Its hard to defend something that clearly isn't even used in the same manner that it is revered as. Its not the fact that its the law of your religion, its the fact that its these rules that are adopted by your religion and championed and then used against the people in adverse ways. You gotta see it that way. I'm not going to champion the constitution's original format with 3/5's humans and women not being able to vote. If you wanna support Sharia...cool, but don't say its without fault in its present form. It needs a do-over. 




Here too

Dame Theory wrote:

---

Mo Matik wrote:

---

I never once said that the current application of Shariah is right.  It's not.  Again, understanding the issues in implementation on a political and institutionalized level in the Middle East requires A LOT more than just an understanding of Islam.

Mo Matik wrote:

---

The model of Shariah law is also very logical and pretty appealing. http://www.huffingtonpost...of-shariah_b_701331.html

So...it may be logical and pretty appealing, but its not right. So...its just cool? Its pretty? What is it then? 

 I'm done on this point. I've also addressed this here. I fully addressed the complexity of Sharia. Read my response. And yes, I read your article. 








I address Apostasy partially here. 

Dame Theory wrote:

---

Without a doubt. Muslim scholars have definitely lead to the progression of society 10x fold. No question there. However so have christian societies. So have jewish societies. In fact name one society where there were a significant number of unbelievers before the past 200 years? Can't name one can you? Thats probably because EVERY society killed non-believers. Ask the Catholic Church. Look to past Islamic leaders...shahs...khalifahs...etc. Ya'll are not special homie. Everyone that dared to speak against the church pretty much was doomed from jump. They had no legitimate chance beyond their contributions to society. Religion oppresses opposition and murders dissenters. Like I said, theres power in numbers. Darwin, Newton, Galileo...all active in the church and look at them. All of them had difficultly understanding God in their own way and some of them even suppressed their own opposition to the church in order to continue in society. Great men do Great things. Thats why you had those advancements. Beliefs in God didn't allow that. Great societies allowed that. I'm sure if religions, islam included, didn't have such strict rules against speaking out, there would be a LOT more documented individuals speaking out against religion.... Lets not even get started on the number of religious leaders that are masking their atheism and those living against the tenets of their religion... NUMEROUS. The facts are out there. Look at how our country treat politicians. ALL of them believe in a God? Bull @+#+. They're politicians. They know how to manipulate opinion and to attract attention.  But why get killed when you've got research to do? Plus, much of their research didn't address the origins of life. Once you start going there people go bat-$*$! crazy. Then it all hits the fan. Thats the issue dude. This is the reason that even today you can have doctors that believe in God...why? Because they're not addressing the origins of life and choose to ignore it. They're dealing with the here and now. Patients and disease. Keep your argument in context...

Although I admit that apostasy is "debated" in your religion it does not eliminate the fact that it is currently used to ENFORCE your religion. This is fact. In a majority of muslim countries Apostasy is punishable by death RIGHT NOW. We can talk until we're blue in the face about what we "think" scripture means but that doesn't matter if thats how its being interepreted to involve policy now all over the world. You can't run from that. I could say the original point of the framers was to have a federalist society... oh well. We're talking about here and now. Plus, why debate such a document open to so much interpretation? Oh thats right, its used to justify some really crazy !$##.







I addressed the gambling here and here. 

Dame Theory wrote:

---

Mo Matik wrote:

---

But I chose Islam, for one, it offers tons and tons of practical solutions to issues that plague us today.  Take, for example, abortion.

From the Qur'an God tells us that life is given to the fetus after 4 months of gestation.  There is also a detailed description of embryology.  So a lot of scholars believe that Abortion is legitimate up to this time, because the Shariah system works on a basis of choosing the lesser of 2 wrongs.  

The model of Shariah law is also very logical and pretty appealing. http://www.huffingtonpost...of-shariah_b_701331.html

But I mean becoming a Muslim really changes your culture in a way.  Take for example, gambling.  In Islam, it's prohibited. 

You must be thinking it's ridiculous to prohibit gambling.  And you have reasons x y and z.  But think about the values.  In Islam, by prohibiting gambling it's saying that, on a fundamental level, a man losing his entire savings is a far greater BAD in comparison to a man making some extra money.  That, on a societal level, we should be united enough to think that "it might be good for me to double or triple the money I have in my pocket, but for that to happen there will be people that suffer from addiction, and lose their savings and for that reason it's wrong."  It's really an amazing thing.  

I commend you looking to address your..."concerns"... with society so kudos for that. You're aligning yourself with the positive tenets of religion. No one has a problem with that. 

HOWEVER...No one has a problem with the good stuff in religion...its the subjective commands that seem to claim authority over everyone else...We have problems with things that for one reason or another come from a place of absolutism and are mixed with religion. 




Your views on abortion? Subjective. Don't let a religion tell you what you should think.

Your views on gambling? Subjective. Don't let a religion tell you what you should think. 




Here too: 

Dame Theory wrote:

---

Mo Matik wrote:

---

Your views on gambling? Subjective. Don't let a religion tell you what you should think.

I was talking strictly in societal terms and values.

So we live in America.  And gambling is legal.  And there are tons of people who are addicted and have to go to meetings or whatever.

The Islamic model of society states that a man throwing his life away is WORSE in the large aspect of society than you making some money and having a good weekend.  

But instead, our values in America are different.  Instead, we forget about the people in society who are going to face turmoil and difficulty because it's all about YOU.  And that's wrong in the large scope of things.

But this is really a problem.  You say "Don't let a religion tell you what to think."  People are so afraid of indoctrination.  No matter where you live and where you are brought up, the conditions are going to shape who you are and the way you think and your value set.  And the Islamic value set in this regard is better than our so called advanced modern value set today.  Gambling is just one example.

Well damn homie... Your right. I'm afraid fo anything that claims to be end all be all to all of my problems. It doesn't encourage me to think for myself. I can't disagree or even express my opinion. Especially when newer more accurate information about society and the universe become available. God forbid I actually learn to live life without them. Thats what they DONT want. Its about getting the numbers of the gang up. Theres power in numbers. Every organization will tell you that. Whether or not I value gambling has nothing to do with how I think a people should live their lives. I personally like to think that people are being raised to know the dangers of the world with good parenting and taught about temptation of things that may harm them. However, I refuse to step in and tell that man not to gamble. Part of being mature and grown up is being strong enough to handle the pressures of life and to know when enough is enough. You have to be rooted in yourself and confident in your ability to assess what it is that you need. Religion controls all of that and eliminates the need for people to mature into higher beings of true self actualization. True enlightenment comes from within, not someone telling you how to live your life. And heres the kicker... how DARE you tell me that your "ordained" divine principles that CANT be challenged are better than the rules we have in place today? Theres no room for debate so its automatically lower on the totem pole of autonomy. This is where your bias lives. You can't even see beyond yourself. Its solipsistic and egotistical. Your way or the highway. Why? "God" said so. 









I addressed the Golden Age here.

Dame Theory wrote:

---

Mo Matik wrote:

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society's development of policy. 

First off, let me shoot down the idea that religion slows down the progress of society by citing the Golden Age of Islam. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...Islamic_Golden_Age  

Muslims were ahead of the rest of the world by 600 years.  Amazing scholars and researchers.  Modern medicine was formed under Islam.  Same with Chemistry.  Anatomy and Physiology too.  Advancements in geography and even immunology.  And a billion other things that affect our lives on a daily basis.  THAT was Islam.  Ibn Sina was actually treating mental disease and psychosis as an actual disease in the 10th century while we finally figured out what to do with them here in this country within the last 200 years.  So don't tell me that religion will deter scientific advancement.  It's simply not true.



Without a doubt. Muslim scholars have definitely lead to the progression of society 10x fold. No question there. However so have christian societies. So have jewish societies. In fact name one society where there were a significant number of unbelievers before the past 200 years? Can't name one can you? Thats probably because EVERY society killed non-believers. Ask the Catholic Church. Look to past Islamic leaders...shahs...khalifahs...etc. Ya'll are not special homie. Everyone that dared to speak against the church pretty much was doomed from jump. They had no legitimate chance beyond their contributions to society. Religion oppresses opposition and murders dissenters. Like I said, theres power in numbers. Darwin, Newton, Galileo...all active in the church and look at them. All of them had difficultly understanding God in their own way and some of them even suppressed their own opposition to the church in order to continue in society. Great men do Great things. Thats why you had those advancements. Beliefs in God didn't allow that. Great societies allowed that. I'm sure if religions, islam included, didn't have such strict rules against speaking out, there would be a LOT more documented individuals speaking out against religion.... Lets not even get started on the number of religious leaders that are masking their atheism and those living against the tenets of their religion... NUMEROUS. The facts are out there. Look at how our country treat politicians. ALL of them believe in a God? Bull @+#+. They're politicians. They know how to manipulate opinion and to attract attention.  But why get killed when you've got research to do? Plus, much of their research didn't address the origins of life. Once you start going there people go bat-$*$! crazy. Then it all hits the fan. Thats the issue dude. This is the reason that even today you can have doctors that believe in God...why? Because they're not addressing the origins of life and choose to ignore it. They're dealing with the here and now. Patients and disease. Keep your argument in context...



Anything else you chose to ignore? 

 

[dame theory]

[h2]
Look, I know. Bill O’Reilly is a far-right ideologue who couldn’t grasp reality with a hundred meters of velcro and a ton of Crazy glue. He’s mean-spirited, loud, and wrong, wrong, wrong. Debunking him is like debunking the Tooth Fairy; so easy and obvious that it’s almost mean on my part to do it.

Yet here we are.

By now the entire planet has heard O’Reilly’s bizarre litany about tides, and how he claims they prove the existence of God. As he has said on many an occasion, "tide goes in, tide goes out, never a miscommunication." By this he means that the harmony of nature, the amazing interconnection between things, clearly argues for God.

The problem is, he’s wrong. Twice, actually. First because he’s making the "God of the Gaps" fallacy: if something can’t be explained, then God must have done it. That’s pretty silly, since of course the far more likely explanation is simply that O’Reilly can’t explain it. That doesn’t mean I can’t! And in the case of tides, I can explain them, as can my friend Neil Tyson, and pretty much every other astronomer on Earth.
http://
The thing is, either O’Reilly cannot learn, or he hopes his audience won’t. Because on his YouTube channel — yes, O’Reilly has a YouTube channel, I believe that’s the Second Horseman of the Apocalypse — he not only makes this same claim again, he digs himself deeper:




Wow. I guess O’Reilly hasn’t discovered Google. Or any astronomy textbook written in the past thirty years. Because we know how the Moon got there (a Mars-sized planet struck the Earth a glancing blow about 100 million years after it formed, splashing debris into orbit which coalesced to form the Moon). And we know how the Sun got there (a small region of a vast cloud of gas and dust collapsed under its own gravity, compressed in the center, ignited nuclear fusion, and Our Star was born).

It gets worse. He asks why we have a Moon, and Mars doesn’t. Pssst, Bill: Mars has two moons. Venus doesn’t have a moon, but if our theory is correct about how we got our Moon then it was a singular, unusual event, so it’s not surprising Venus doesn’t have one.

Now it’s possible that Bill is being metaphoric; he doesn’t literally mean the Moon, or tides, or anything like that: he means rules and order in general. We have the laws of physics, and we don’t know why those exist the way they do.

That’s true enough, and an interesting field of exploration. But to jump to say, "God did it" is a losing bet. They used to say that about thunder. They used to say that about people getting sick. They used to say that about, oh, why the Moon and Sun are in the sky, and why we have tides. Say.

But now we understand those things. We understand them because we’re curious, we humans, and we developed a method of understanding the Universe. It’s called science. And it went a long way to showing us why thunder happens, why people get sick, and why the Moon and Sun formed, and how their mass and gravity warp space-time around us. There are gaps in our understanding, but one of the big points of science is to narrow those gaps.

Saying "God did it" is not an answer. It’s an evasion. O’Reilly (and so many ideologues like him) wants his ignorance to be canonized, but ignorance is not a goal. It’s an opportunity to learn more.

Look: I seriously and strongly feel that everyone has the right to believe what they want, and to find comfort in it if they need it. But you can’t let that belief narrow your view of the Universe to where it’s simply easier to avoid what you don’t understand. That’s what O’Reilly has done — or is urging his listeners to do — and he’s missing out. Nature is subtle, and amazing, and layered, and complex, and interconnected on levels we’re only just now starting to suspect. That’s where the true mystery lies.

As long as we’re curious, and keep our eyes and minds open, we’ll be able to explore the Universe, and we’ll never run out of things to question and explain.

[size=-2]Tip o’ the self-gravitating disk to reddit.[/size]

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