Do people really believe in Angels?

[futuremd]

So in short, we can't have a discussion about the unexplained on NT because our resident future medical practitioner will stop at nothing to force his belief that science can explain any and everything on us. RIP good threads on NT.

Well if you're going to say things that assert to mere speculation and don't go further than "i was just sitting on my back porch and came up with how thinking works" then yeah, we can't get anywhere.

There is more to understanding complex processes than just sitting around and thinking about them, and often incorrectly.  

 

[futuremd]

but thats where your thinking seems shallow to me.. look i agree with alot of your points. im not fighting whats fact.. nd im also not into religion, but if someone believes something and it works for them, i cant discredit it. 

I can, and quite easily. 

I don't see why I should defer to a flawed understanding of reality because its comfortable. If your religion asserts things that are either not true, or are unsubstantiated, then accepting those assertions and taking them for granted as "givens" does not benefit anyone, no matter how much you associate yourself with it.

I don't care how much it means to you. 

If you make assertions that aren't backed up, you're not doing anything of value. 

i cant see what they see or felt from that belief..

I don't deny that people have unique experiences, but to assert them as universally incontrovertible is flawed. 

its like the placebo effect you pointed out.. if the dam pill works for them even tho it had no drugs, how can you tell that person the pill or effects werent real?

Do you not know what the placebo effect is?

Its all the in the mind. 

There is then nothing external working to aid the person other than their own volition or submission to the notion that they're being assisted. 

your not experienced in judging other peoples realities.. just your own. not everything has an explanation

I don't care about judging other people's experiences. I care about validating them. 

And yes, for all intents and purposes if you attempt to reason away the occurrence of a situation or event then thats an explanation that you offer. Otherwise you wouldn't have any stance on the matter or an understanding of the matter. 

There may not be an explanation, but attempts to qualify the experience serve as efforts to describe said events and do serve as explanations. 

 

[futuremd]

This is NOT true for all and every situation. You're speaking so loosely and in generalizations as if it's an absolute.

How did the Europeans enslave the Africans?

By taking away any hope of survival outside of slavery, SON. 

How is anyone enslaved and then kept under the thumb of the oppressor?

By eliminating any thought of freedom, of which is inspired through HOPE.

I don't give a damn as who, or what, you've studied from 17th century. We all can read and then comprehend. What they thought back then, is no longer relevant today. Hell, most of those clowns in Europe back then, even the PHILOSOPHERS, thought that simply by taking a bath, that you'd catch your death of cold. So they invented Perfume, instead of soap. Point here is, most of the stuff that they thought to believe, has been proven to be WRONG. 

My point to Future MD was simple, HOPE is what drives humanity forward. Any progress that is made in this world, begins with HOPE. The first person to do anything, didn't know for sure if they were headed in the right direction. In most cases, they stumbled upon stuff by accident in regard to discovery.

There was a time that many of those people that you admire from the 15th century, thought the World was FLAT. Those navigators who went out to see what was really out there, HOPED that they didn't fall off the face of the earth. They didn't know if they would, as those Europeans were also Christian, thinking that the Bible was correct.

Bringing it back to the good Doctor, especially since you still seem to not be able to comprehend, even with all of your so called study,

One fish, two fish.

Red fish, blue fish.

Black fish,blue fish.

Old fish, new fish.

This one has a little star.

This one has a little car.

SAY!

What a lot of fish there are.

-Dr Seuss One Fish Two Fish

The good doctor is talking about discovery. All of which also begins with HOPE.

All journey begins there.

Hope isn't a thing. Its a mere assertion that people want things.

Thats not even the case. Its a sort of special pleading. 

The will to survive or even efforts to live is not the same as "hope." 

Not every discovery is a matter of "hope" nor is every revelation. 

 

[futuremd]

My man, biologically, what happens to people when they lose confidence, drive, ambition? It seems that you have indeed studied this.

How important is the psychological state in regard to remaining alive?

Psychological state is very important, however that doesn't mean its sort of innate property of existence. 

People who retire early die earlier but that doesn't mean they lose hope. Remaining active doesn't mean you have to be essentially "hoping" for something. 

I really think you're trying to force this concept of "hope" to drive home a point that really isn't there. 

 

[futuremd]

Prove to me today there's a tomorrow.

...what? 

I can't prove that.

I can say that based on the evidence of the succession of "days" in the past, which is really just a rotation of the earth, that the earth will continue to rotate. 

 

[papageorgeo510]

...what? 

I can't prove that.

I can say that based on the evidence of the succession of "days" in the past, which is really just a rotation of the earth, that the earth will continue to rotate. 

But you do believe there's a tomorrow right?

 

[elpablo21]

This isn't an anti-religion thread or anything like that.

 

[futuremd]

...what? 

I can't prove that.

I can say that based on the evidence of the succession of "days" in the past, which is really just a rotation of the earth, that the earth will continue to rotate. 

But you do believe there's a tomorrow right?

There is a difference between belief and knowledge.

Knowledge: You know it or you do not know it. Period.

Belief: You believe it or you do not believe it. Period.

We could get into specifics, but this deals with something called "epistemology" 

There is no inbetween for either.

I do not know if the earth will stop spinning as my view of "night/darkness/etc" comes to my area of the planet and ceases to return back to face the sun, or what you call a day. 

However, based on a rather large sample set of observations that the earth has continued to spin, that I believe the earth will continue to spin. 

 

[longstroke]

Hope isn't a thing. Its a mere assertion that people want things.

Thats not even the case. Its a sort of special pleading. 

The will to survive or even efforts to live is not the same as "hope." 

Not every discovery is a matter of "hope" nor is every revelation. 

I disagree.

You've got to hope that there is an answer, before you can seek it.

If you feel that there isn't an answer to something, then there is no hope.

 

[brainwashed21]

our minds create the medicine.. god is certain peoples medicine! the effect they get from believing it shouldnt make it any less real.. just because its in my mind it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.. religion is sort of placebo for hope. why dont you think its real, or dont think it works? because they havent dragged a man down from the sky? then in theory it goes against everything you beieve in.. there is no hope or or enjoyment in learning something new because u need several facts before you can give anything credit.. you base your reality off external forces doing the work for you lol

 

[futuremd]

Hope isn't a thing. Its a mere assertion that people want things.

Thats not even the case. Its a sort of special pleading. 

The will to survive or even efforts to live is not the same as "hope." 

Not every discovery is a matter of "hope" nor is every revelation. 

I disagree.

You've got to hope that there is an answer, before you can seek it.

If you feel that there isn't an answer to something, then there is no hope.

Not everything discovered is a result of "hope" for something. Not every revelation is in pursuit of an answer of some sort. There are certainly people who look to reach certain goals when they undertake missions/research/etc., however, not everything revealed as a novel understanding is the result of "hope." 

We can accidentally reveal things, and we do it quite often. In fact, very rarely do we discover exactly what we specifically set out to uncover, if we ever try to directly uncover anything in many cases other than just screwing around to see what we find. 

Hope is not the end-all to everything, nor is it the M.O. of every endeavro. 

Stop trying to fit everything into this "hope" meme. 

 

[papageorgeo510]

There is a difference between belief and knowledge.

Knowledge: You know it or you do not know it. Period.

Belief: You believe it or you do not believe it. Period.

We could get into specifics, but this deals with something called "epistemology" 

There is no inbetween for either.

I do not know if the earth will stop spinning as my view of "night/darkness/etc" comes to my area of the planet and ceases to return back to face the sun, or what you call a day. 

However, based on a rather large sample set of observations that the earth has continued to spin, that I believe the earth will continue to spin. 

Bruh, if you don't believe there is a tomorrow then we don't have anything to talk about today.

 

[longstroke]

Psychological state is very important, however that doesn't mean its sort of innate property of existence. 

People who retire early die earlier but that doesn't mean they lose hope. Remaining active doesn't mean you have to be essentially "hoping" for something. 

I really think you're trying to force this concept of "hope" to drive home a point that really isn't there. 

I see where we disagree, you see hope as some sort of plea into the unknown.

I don't look at it that way. 

Hope for many people including myself, is what drives me toward knowledge, wisdom and understanding.

If there is something wrong, I hope to be able to find a solution, even if there isn't one.

This is why I admire people who come from nothing, then making themselves into something greater than anything they've ever dreamed of in this country.

You and I were discussing it on the Chicago thread, where the young men killing each other do not exhibit any confidence, any sense of belonging outside of their gang.

They have no identity, no hope. They see no way out due to their being limited in their thinking, limited in their options.

 

[longstroke]

 Stop trying to fit everything into this "hope" meme. 

You do realize that for many, especially in the current financial climate, that this is all they've got, right? 

 

[futuremd]

our minds create the medicine.. god is certain peoples medicine!

Don't care. And this doesn't make any sense. 

"god" hasn't been shown to exist or whatever you move the goalposts to say this "god" is, because you are setting out to prove your conclusion instead of gathering the evidence that leads to that conclusion.

 the effect they get from believing it shouldnt make it any less real..

IT EITHER EXISTS, OR IT DOES NOT EXIST.

BELIEVING SOMETHING DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE.

just because its in my mind it doesnt mean it doesnt exist..

Yo, what is wrong with you? How do you not see how flawed this statement is? 

Does Spiderman exist too? 

religion is sort of placebo for hope.

Great. As long as we call it a placebo, I have no problem with agreeing with this.

why dont you think its real, or dont think it works?

Because a placebo is not a "thing"

Its a psychological trick. Its not real. 

Either you don't understand what a placebo is, or you're just contradicting yourself. 

because they havent dragged a man down from the sky?

Because if religion is a placebo, then it doesn't exist, nor are any of its claims real.

However if its claims are real, true, or valid, they then must substantiate their claims to show that this is really the case.

The burden of proof rests on them to validate their claims. 

Its quite simple. 

then in theory it goes against everything you beieve in..

What? 

 there is no hope or or enjoyment in learning something new because u need several facts before you can give anything credit.. you base your reality off external forces doing the work for you lol

Well thats the point

If you can't validate the basics then you can't build off of that. Its very simple and I don't understand how you could argue against that point.

If we don't come to a consensus, for example, that viral particles with specific protein coats infect cells with certain receptors, then we can't develop target drugs to interact with those receptors and prevent infection.

Everything must be evaluated and substantiated down to its roots. 

Period. 

 

[futuremd]

 Stop trying to fit everything into this "hope" meme. 

You do realize that for many, especially in the current financial climate, that this is all they've got, right? 

I don't care.

Hope, wishful thinking, desires, etc., can be the motivation for some, but it is not the universal M.O. for all.

 

[cj863]

That's your opinion. The fact that certain issues can't be discussed on this site because of the imminent threadkill that is sillyputty is completely ridiculous. Hence why mods gave the banz the first time. I appreciate most of the knowledge that you and a few others share on this site, but to have one person dictating what can and can't be discussed on a board of 40k plus members is insane.

 

[rko2004]

FutureMD you seem obsessed with anything related to God.

Or just being "right".

 

[futuremd]

There is a difference between belief and knowledge.

Knowledge: You know it or you do not know it. Period.

Belief: You believe it or you do not believe it. Period.

We could get into specifics, but this deals with something called "epistemology" 

There is no inbetween for either.

I do not know if the earth will stop spinning as my view of "night/darkness/etc" comes to my area of the planet and ceases to return back to face the sun, or what you call a day. 

However, based on a rather large sample set of observations that the earth has continued to spin, that I believe the earth will continue to spin. 

Bruh, if you don't believe there is a tomorrow then we don't have anything to talk about today.

...What is "tomorrow"? 

I just defined that for you. 

If its the mere rotation of the earth, based on the sample set of observations that the earth continues to rotate, then I believe the earth will continue to do so.

HOWEVER, I do not know if the earth will stop spinning once my section of the earth faces away from the sun, or what you call, "night" and ceases to return back to face the sun to start a new, what you call "day." 

 

[futuremd]

 

That's your opinion. The fact that certain issues can't be discussed on this site because of the imminent threadkill that is sillyputty is completely ridiculous. Hence why mods gave the banz the first time. I appreciate most of the knowledge that you and a few others share on this site, but to have one person dictating what can and can't be discussed on a board of 40k plus members is insane.

I didn't say what could or could not be discussed. 

I said that we don't gain anything from just throwing up hook-shots of ideas that don't have any basis behind them. There is a major difference.

We have dudes in here going, "we have a soul!" and other unsubstantiated, wild claims rife with unchecked speculation.

All I want to know is: Where is it?

No one can answer that, MOSTLY because its a term that never died out since modern neuroscience took it behind the woodshed. 

Its not my problem to defend your argument for you, but you don't get to pretend like others can't express their discontent with your views or your stance because of it.

 

[longstroke]

I don't care.

Hope, wishful thinking, desires, etc., can be the motivation for some, but it is not the universal M.O. for all.

Wow.

How do you feel about optimism?

Many doctors will say, We are very optimistic about the outcome of ....in regard to discovery.

 

[futuremd]

FutureMD you seem obsessed with anything related to God.

Or just being "right".

I certainly am obsessed with being more, "right."

Aren't you?

I mean isn't the goal to get to the point where you understand things as much as possible? I don't see how thats a problem. 

I admit when I've erred many times and will continue to do so...thats because I actually care about getting to the point where I'm in line with as many true, real, and valid things as possible. 

I don't like being wrong and am willing to correct myself so that I'm less wrong in the future. 

You can't learn anything if you're not willing to admit this. 

 

[futuremd]

I don't care.

Hope, wishful thinking, desires, etc., can be the motivation for some, but it is not the universal M.O. for all.

Wow.

How do you feel about optimism?

Many doctors will say, We are very optimistic about the outcome of ....in regard to discovery.

Whats your point?

Theres nothing wrong (or right) with being optimistic. I don't see what you're asking. Trying to feel good...(generally) feels good. 

But when you say "we are optimistic about xyz" that doesn't imply to me some sort of "bliss" as much as it does positive correlation to an expected result. 

 

[cj863]

That's the thing, the discussion doesn't have to be about what YOU believe it should be about. The user experience is deteriorated with having a sillyputty/futuremd character that continues to force his beliefs on users. I'm gonna have to talk to a mod about this because it's completely ridiculous.

 

[futuremd]

Psychological state is very important, however that doesn't mean its sort of innate property of existence. 

People who retire early die earlier but that doesn't mean they lose hope. Remaining active doesn't mean you have to be essentially "hoping" for something. 

I really think you're trying to force this concept of "hope" to drive home a point that really isn't there. 

I see where we disagree, you see hope as some sort of plea into the unknown.

I don't look at it that way. 

Hope for many people including myself, is what drives me toward knowledge, wisdom and understanding.

If there is something wrong, I hope to be able to find a solution, even if there isn't one.

This is why I admire people who come from nothing, then making themselves into something greater than anything they've ever dreamed of in this country.

You and I were discussing it on the Chicago thread, where the young men killing each other do not exhibit any confidence, any sense of belonging outside of their gang.

They have no identity, no hope. They see no way out due to their being limited in their thinking, limited in their options.

Look. 

People can "want" whatever they can conjure up as a goal.

I don't deny that.

However, "wanting" things is not the only means of enacting one's behavior or motivating it.

Its very simple.