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List looks pretty accurate to me.
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Oh boy.. i hope ska ignores this statement and not leave a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONGGGG POST and save his time defending himself..Originally Posted by lnMyMind
It has nothing to do with any bias...the statement he made CLEARLY suggests he doesn't like Kobe and that was the root of his comments. He's made no secret in the past that he doesn't particularly care for him either so I'm not just making this up.Originally Posted by BullsRepeat3Peat
^ man it's his opinion... I don't see how that makes him hate Kobe...... not everyone on NT is biased, unlike most...
When you bring in the "If" logic in sports....all you're doing is attempting to discredit something/someone for your own personal reasons. Saying " Give Maravich, Iverson, or West the EXACT career Kobe has had" is just an attempt to belittle all of Kobe's career accomplishments by making it seem as if he who he is today by "circumstance" and that you can plug in another individual into his shoes and get better results. Thinly veiled hate right there...nothing more.
Originally Posted by 23ska909red02
Give Maravich, Iverson, or West the EXACT career Kobe has had... playing with one of the league's top 5 centers ever for like 8 years ('96-'97 to '03-'04, right?) and one of the top 3 coaches of all time, and they would at LEAST do what Kobe has done; I think they would do better, though.lnMyMind:
You could have just saved yourself some time and replied with, "I don't like Kobe"
BullsRepeat3Peat:
man it's his opinion... I don't see how that makes him hate Kobe...... not everyone on NT is biased, unlike most...lnMyMind:
It has nothing to do with any bias...the statement he made CLEARLY suggests he doesn't like Kobe and that was the root of his comments. He's made no secret in the past that he doesn't particularly care for him either so I'm not just making this up.
When you bring in the "If" logic in sports....all you're doing is attempting to discredit something/someone for your own personal reasons. Saying " Give Maravich, Iverson, or West the EXACT career Kobe has had" is just an attempt to belittle all of Kobe's career accomplishments by making it seem as if he who he is today by "circumstance" and that you can plug in another individual into his shoes and get better results. Thinly veiled hate right there...nothing more.
I wasn't trying to build an argument against Kobe; I was trying to build an argument FOR the guys I mentioned.
And I have said in the past that Kobe isn't my favorite player, but I never said I hated him, and never said he sucked.
I mean, I didn't say Kobe doesn't belong on the list, and I didn't say EVERYONE on the list is better than Kobe, like Reggie Miller. I left him alone. I simply named two legends and a current player (West, Maravich, and Iverson) that I would personally name over Kobe.
And there's nothing wrong with that at all; that's not hating on your boy at all.
At any rate, you could have saved yourself a little time by simply saying 'I super, a lot, way like Kobe, so don't talk bad about him like you just did.'
I wasn't trying to build an argument against Kobe; I was trying to build an argument FOR the guys I mentioned
But that's exactly what you did. How does the comment...Give Maravich, Iverson, or West the EXACT career Kobe has had... playing with one of the league's top 5 centers ever for like 8 years ('96-'97 to '03-'04, right?) and one of the top 3 coaches of all time, and they would at LEAST do what Kobe has done; I think they would do better, though.
build a case for THEM? You didn't mention diddly poo about ANY of their careers. You simply said "give them shaq and phil jackson, andthey'll do what he did if not better"...call me crazy...but I'm not seeing the argument FOR those guys here. I simply see you just trying to knockKobe.
I mean, I didn't say Kobe doesn't belong on the list, and I didn't say EVERYONE on the list is better than Kobe, like Reggie Miller. I left him alone. I simply named two legends and a current player (West, Maravich, and Iverson) that I would personally name over Kobe.
Nobody said you did...which is why I only chose to comment on that specific quote in reference to West, Maravich, and Iverson. I take it youmissed that...
At any rate, you could have saved yourself a little time by simply saying 'I super, a lot, way like Kobe, so don't talk bad about him like you just did.
I guess at THIS rate...you can try to counter attack with that obviously forced rebuttal...but the fact of the matter is that not once in mycomments did I express ANY favoritism towards Kobe...or even simply said that I was a fan of his. I just simply said that your method of reasoning with thatcomment showed that you obviously don't like Kobe. The "If" logic is a general rule of thumb PERIOD for me...regardless of who were talkingabout. Good attempt though...
but you can definitely place West over Kobe at #2....
I never said you couldn't...all im saying is that if you're going to choose to backup a statement like that...saying "Give West Shaqand Phil Jackson and he'd do what Kobe did if not better"...is not building a case FOR Jerry West. Grittyman made a reference to his all defensiveteams. Something like THAT is building a case for Jerry West. Not what ska did...
played in the jordan era and still was great....Originally Posted by Officer Andre
Can someone convince me that Reggie Miller is better than Ray Allen?
Originally Posted by Officer Andre
Can someone convince me that Reggie Miller is better than Ray Allen?
It has nothing to do with any bias...the statement he made CLEARLY suggests he doesn't like Kobe and that was the root of his comments. He's made no secret in the past that he doesn't particularly care for him either so I'm not just making this up.
When you bring in the "If" logic in sports....all you're doing is attempting to discredit something/someone for your own personal reasons. Saying " Give Maravich, Iverson, or West the EXACT career Kobe has had" is just an attempt to belittle all of Kobe's career accomplishments by making it seem as if he who he is today by "circumstance" and that you can plug in another individual into his shoes and get better results. Thinly veiled hate right there...nothing more.
We always are going to get discussion like this for any Best Of lists. People have their biases. Look at that KB dude in here spewing his typical"Kobe is the GOAT" talk that everyone laughs at.....isnt that CLEARLY suggesting he is a Kobe freak and thats the root of his comments?
I agree, it's always tricky to bring the IF logic in because we have to simply go by what we see. I dont really agree with Ska's opinion on this one(especially Maravich, who's knees gave out well before his prime was over) but he does have a somewhat valid point though (if Im reading into it right).Kobe is an all timer because of who he is and what he has done. However he may be #2 on this list already because of certaincircumstances. It's at least debatable. But again it is the what-if game and ya it's tricky. I personally don't think Bryant should be #2 yet...theguy isnt even 30 yrs old yet and thats the beauty of these lists....guys who are in their primes when the lists are created get looked at differently. Maravichhas his entire NBA body of work for us to look at (7 fairly healthy seasons and 3 injury seasons and then retirement at 32....very underwhelming in somesense). Kobe for example is currently in his prime. Who knows...good discussions though.
Originally Posted by BullsRepeat3Peat
He was clutch. He was a pure shooter. Not a defensive player. Not that great of a passer. A bad rebounder. Shot the ball and shot it well. That's about it. He averaged 18, 3 , 3 with below average defense and not even one All NBA 2nd team selection.Originally Posted by dland24
I really think you guys are all forgetting how good Reggie Miller was.
IMO Moncrief should take his place, I guess defense is indeed underrated.
I'm not even gonna mention guys that got snubbed like Sam Jones, Hal Greer, Thompson, Sharman, or Dave Bing.....
They've got #1 wrong
me:
At any rate, you could have saved yourself a little time by simply saying 'I super, a lot, way like Kobe, so don't talk bad about him like you just did.lnMyMind:
I guess at THIS rate...you can try to counter attack with that obviously forced rebuttal...but the fact of the matter is that not once in my comments did I express ANY favoritism towards Kobe...or even simply said that I was a fan of his. I just simply said that your method of reasoning with that comment showed that you obviously don't like Kobe. The "If" logic is a general rule of thumb PERIOD for me...regardless of who were talking about. Good attempt though...
I'm not going to respond to everything you said, because it would just be nit-picking insignificant details. I just want address that onecomment you made, specifically the first line. And this is really all I have:
Not once did you express favoritism for Kobe? Not once did you express a pro-Kobe agenda?
Neither did I ever express an anti-Kobe agenda. I was as anti-Kobe in my response as you were pro-Kobe.
And the 'if' argument doesn't necessarily guarantee anti-anything. That might be a general rule of thumb for YOU, but it's not a general ruleof thumb. "If Martin Luther King could run for President today, he would destroy Barack" would be interpreted by you as me knocking Obama, and notsimply expressing my appreciation for MLK, one of my personal all-time heroes? Trust: I'm not anti-Obama in the LEAST, so you assuming as much from myhypothetical statement isn't really the best 'rule of thumb' for you to have.
Originally Posted by Officer Andre
Can someone convince me that Reggie Miller is better than Ray Allen?
Originally Posted by 23ska909red02
me:
At any rate, you could have saved yourself a little time by simply saying 'I super, a lot, way like Kobe, so don't talk bad about him like you just did.lnMyMind:
I guess at THIS rate...you can try to counter attack with that obviously forced rebuttal...but the fact of the matter is that not once in my comments did I express ANY favoritism towards Kobe...or even simply said that I was a fan of his. I just simply said that your method of reasoning with that comment showed that you obviously don't like Kobe. The "If" logic is a general rule of thumb PERIOD for me...regardless of who were talking about. Good attempt though...
If Martin Luther King could run for President today, he would destroy Barack
As for this MLK/Obama analogy...close...but different. If you chose to back up your argument by speaking in FAVOR of MLK...then great. But if you just go intoa rant about if MLK had (insert whatever Barack has here) then that is just an attempt to discredit Obama. Which is what you did with Kobe.
10. Joe Dumars
They must consider Walter Hermann a Small Forward
Originally Posted by TheKingOfVa
now that I think about it Iverson should clearly behind Drexler
I agree, it's always tricky to bring the IF logic in because we have to simply go by what we see. I dont really agree with Ska's opinion on this one (especially Maravich, who's knees gave out well before his prime was over) but he does have a somewhat valid point though (if Im reading into it right). Kobe is an all timer because of who he is and what he has done. However he may be #2 on this list already because of certain circumstances. It's at least debatable. But again it is the what-if game and ya it's tricky.
There is no IF logic because IF didn't happen. IT happened. Kobe did play with Shaq, and he was very successful. It would be pointless to harpon the IF logic. IF my mother would have slept with Wilt Chamberlain I could possibly be a 6'7" combo guard in the League. But she didn't andI'm not so why bring it up? Instead I am a 6' 1" combo guard who maxed out as a D2 role player. I am not going to debate someone who wants to useIF logic as a basis for there argument.
One question I have is, why are so many people quick to discredit Kobe because he played with Shaq? I mean if you wanna take it there... Jerry West did not winhis championship until Wilt got there... and that only after playing with Wilt for about 4-5 years. Oh by the way, he also had the help from another Hall ofFamer, Gail Goodrich. MJ played with a top 50 player(Scottie), the best rebounder and arguably the best defender ever(Rodman), GREAT shooters (Hodges, Kerr,Paxson), arguably the best European player ever in his prime (Kucoc), and had the best coach in the history of the game(Jackson).
Now should these players accomplishments be tarnished because they played with great players??? Of course not. So why is Kobe's? Beacuase Kobe didn'texactly fall off when Shaq left.
Good for them. But that's the beauty of 'difference'; we don't all have to share the same opinions of 'decorated NBA sports writers'.
• Henry Abbott, TrueHoop (HA)
• J.A. Adande, ESPN.com (JA)
• Greg Anthony, ESPN (GA)
• Jon Barry, ESPN (JB)
• Chris Broussard, ESPN The Magazine (CB)
• Ric Bucher, ESPN The Magazine (RB)
• Jemele Hill, ESPN.com Page 2 (JHi)
• John Hollinger, ESPN.com (JH)
• Mark Jackson, ESPN (MJ)
• Scoop Jackson, ESPN.com Page 2 (SJ)
• Tim Legler, ESPN (TL)
• Carlos Morales, ESPN Deportes (CM)
• Chris Palmer, ESPN The Magazine (CP)
• Chris Ramsay, ESPN.com (CR)
• Jack Ramsay, ESPN (JR)
• Jalen Rose, ESPN (JRo)
• Chris Sheridan, ESPN.com (CS)
• Bill Simmons, ESPN.com Page 2 (BS)
• Marc Stein, ESPN.com (MS)
• David Thorpe, Scouts Inc. (DT)
While I respect your "opinion", we are talking about former NBA players as well as a Hall of Fame Coach. I hate to use the saying "gamerecognize game," but its the truth. I am sure if you polled more past and present NBA players they would agree KOBE is top 2 also.