Fragment Design x Retro 1 High OG - Dec 27, 2014

[ady2glude707]

Yes and it also dilutes product availability since consumers have an alternate product they can get their hands on. In response companies would have to lower their prices or keep them competitive to compete with the similar product
If a collector unknowingly purchases a fake pair of shoes (frag or not) or customizes a shoe that fulfills their need/want of an original shoe/colorway, that is one less person in demand for the shoe. Now multiply this by one hundred fakes/customizations, now by one thousand.
Less demand = lower prices.
More supply = less demand.

 

[h-n-t-w-m-n]

By your logic, the secondary market should have dipped to a reasonable amount..which it hasn’t. Why? Because there were a set amount released. As time passes and as legit pairs go to serious owners, the amount of pairs for sale trends downward which as you pointed out drives the demand up. High demand, higher price.

People who bought fakes for $300 thinking they got a deal and those who customized a Game Royal were never a serious buyer of Fragments in the first place. Those consumers don’t jeopardize resale value. If it did, the price would dictate as much.

Find me a DS size 11 Frag for less than $1000 in five months after all these folks paint their Game Royals. I’ll be thankful for the oop but it’s never gonna happen.

 

[h-n-t-w-m-n]

The consumer you’re talking about isn’t the same consumer we relate to. The sale numbers are black and white.

 

[ady2glude707]

By your logic, the secondary market should have dipped to a reasonable amount..which it hasn’t. Why? Because there were a set amount released. As time passes and as legit pairs go to serious owners, the amount of pairs for sale trends downward which as you pointed out drives the demand up. High demand, higher price.

People who bought fakes for $300 thinking they got a deal and those who customized a Game Royal were never a serious buyer of Fragments in the first place. Those consumers don’t jeopardize resale value. If it did, the price would dictate as much.

Find me a DS size 11 Frag for less than $1000 in five months after all these folks paint their Game Royals. I’ll be thankful for the oop but it’s never gonna happen.

My reasoning isnt specific to frags, just shoes in general, so no, frags didnt have to necessarily dip to a "reasonable amount". Why? Because frags were highly limited in the first place.
You cant claim an individual to not be a serious buyer of a shoe just because he/she unknowingly bought a fake or customized a shoe. Like I pointed out earlier, if that person had the means to be able to pay for frags but unknowingly purchased a fake for 2k or customized a shoe to look like an og colorway and that fulfills that persons desire, then thats one less person in the market for the shoe. Less demand = lower prices (this will depend on model of shoe obviously)
In general, counterfeits/additional supply affect pricing, secondary market or not. Its basic business knowledge. I suggest you take a business course or better yet do a simple Google search on counterfeits and pricing.

 

[h-n-t-w-m-n]

We’re in a Fragment thread. Talks pertain to the Fragment 1. So, your technicality doesn’t apply.

I can absolutely claim if an individual isn't a serious buyer. The consumer you're referring is someone like my boss. He loves the aesthetics of the 350 but would never pony up the money. Instead, he bought two pairs of Sketchers that mimics the Yeezy. People like this are in no position to sway the secondary value of any shoe because although he liked the shoe, he was never going to fork over the money. Tying into the Fragment, folks painting their Game Royals loved the Fragment but weren't going to pay the astronomical prices. Again, these folks don't pose a threat to price. Removing these people from the mix does nothing but concentrate the amount of serious buyers.

The one and only example of the Fragment momentarily dipping in price is when the pairs found at Marshall's were being sold. That is the example I posed earlier. The only way secondary price is going to dip is if additional LEGIT pairs are put on the market.

You don't need student debt or a piece of paper to exercise common sense.

 

[huskercats]

We’re in a Fragment thread. Talks pertain to the Fragment 1. So, your technicality doesn’t apply.

I can absolutely claim if an individual isn't a serious buyer. The consumer you're referring is someone like my boss. He loves the aesthetics of the 350 but would never pony up the money. Instead, he bought two pairs of Sketchers that mimics the Yeezy. People like this are in no position to sway the secondary value of any shoe because although he liked the shoe, he was never going to fork over the money. Tying into the Fragment, folks painting their Game Royals loved the Fragment but weren't going to pay the astronomical prices. Again, these folks don't pose a threat to price. Removing these people from the mix does nothing but concentrate the amount of serious buyers.

The one and only example of the Fragment momentarily dipping in price is when the pairs found at Marshall's were being sold. That is the example I posed earlier. The only way secondary price is going to dip is if additional LEGIT pairs are put on the market.

You don't need student debt or a piece of paper to exercise common sense.

What he just said!

 

[ady2glude707]

Duh this is the fragment thread. You're the one that brought up "other kicks" in your original and subsequent post therefore my reasoning "technically" does stand here.
Also the example you just gave doesn't even involve anything about fakes and you instead gave an example of someone not even in the market for a specific item that purchases a similar item instead, therefore not posing a threat to resell prices.
My example showed how a consumer who unknowingly purchases fakes takes them out of the market for that shoe, thus decreasing demand and the market price.
Simple Google search and how counterfeits affect the market bro. Street smarts can only get you so far.

 

[v8erman]

Duh this is the fragment thread. You're the one that brought up "other kicks" in your original and subsequent post therefore my reasoning "technically" does stand here.
Also the example you just gave doesn't even involve anything about fakes and you instead gave an example of someone not even in the market for a specific item that purchases a similar item instead, therefore not posing a threat to resell prices.
My example showed how a consumer who unknowingly purchases fakes takes them out of the market for that shoe, thus decreasing demand and the market price.
Simple Google search and how counterfeits affect the market bro. Street smarts can only get you so far.

I think your argument on buying fakes to affect supply and demand is far too generalized and overrated. I have never seen one instance where market pricing was affected by fakes and Im a follower/subsequent buyer of some of the most copied. Everyone thinks a restock is gonna do something but its effect is nil. The only thing that ever affects the market price of any shoe is when its re-released and there is more than enough fact to support that. 1 Joe Shmo or 2 or 3 or more dropping coin on fakes makes like no dent on it. Its been done, people making customs and dudes are still trying to swing a 1700 deal on a pair.

 

[huskercats]

Fakes are not affecting the price of Fragments at all. I don't know of any shoe produced in the numbers of Frags to sell for more than what they do now. Frags compare to OW Chicago's and they are all around the same price. The same with the 2013 Black/Gold Patents and before the New release of Banned 1's came out they were the same price, but look what the re release of banned 1's did to the 2011 prices that have twice the quality of the 2016 model. It definitely wasn't the fake Banned 1's from 2011 that drove prices down.

 

[h-n-t-w-m-n]

I don’t see where I typed “other kicks” in the post you quoted but I definitely said Fragment. What I said in that particular post about fakes and painting regarding the market price is true. It’s true for the Fragment and every other shoe anyone would bother to drop decent money on. The two gentlemen above me see it as such as well. The numbers and countless other examples don’t lie. We are giving you specific examples that pertain to Niketalkers and you still speak in generalities we don’t see.

Please enlighten us with specific instances where your ideaology holds true on a shoe popular with sneaker enthusiasts because it doesn’t apply here.

 

[ady2glude707]

I will agree that the Fragment shouldn’t have been on such a high pedestal in the first place but if you’re mimicking something it doesn’t downgrade what you’re trying to mimic.

If I wear a shoe next to someone who’s wearing a fake version, it doesn’t make mine worth less.

If I wear a shoe next to someone who painted theirs to look like mine, it doesn’t make mine worth less.

Fakes have not lessened the secondary market price of Fragments or any other shoe. Stop it

Again my viewpoint is not specific to fragments, but shoes or any physical item in general. There arent statistics to support either of our claims but you cant be boneheaded to think that fakes dont affect pricing to some extent.

 

[h-n-t-w-m-n]

Already addressed. We’re still looking for specific examples from you....

You preach business school and street smarts can only take someone so far but you yet to disprove our examples.

Again, numbers don’t lie. They’re black and white. Time to make that education shine because it hasn’t worked so far.

 

[h-n-t-w-m-n]

If you’ve resorted to ‘boneheaded’ and haven’t put up any facts to dispute our examples, I’ll bow out and takes this W

 

[ady2glude707]

Haha this isnt a battle, go ahead and take your imaginary W kid. Ive already provided examples in my previous posts of how fakes can take away buyers from the market. How can you not agree with basic business knowledge the counterfeit items affect pricing to some degree? its not like Im saying fakes have caused frags to go from 2k to 1k, Im saying fakes makes a dent on market pricing to a certain degree.
Have you seen how many people on eBay unknowing buy fakes that cost as much as legit pairs? Now take those people out of the market. That equals less demand because they fulfilled a want. If fakes didnt exist those same people would all be vying for an item with much less quantity if fakes did not exist.
Theres so many web pages that you can simply Google to find this out. Again, this is not only about fragments, but "other shoes" or goods in general. Miss me with that "you cant disprove my examples" talk when you've yet to disprove mine.

 

[h-n-t-w-m-n]

Kid? Hahaha. Presumptuous much?


No, you haven’t given any examples. Not one backed with numbers. Please share. We’re still waiting for you to prove your claim. Give us numbers like we’ve given you. The numbers that don’t lie aren’t backing you.

 

[ady2glude707]

Theres not an example you can give that proves or disproves your claim because no numbers exist. All you've pointed out is that frags resell price has stayed high. So what? How does does that disprove my reasoning that fakes dont affect market price?

Sales volume and price. Counterfeit and pirated products crowd genuine products out of the market, lowering the market share of the rights holder, putting downward pressures on prices. In the case of trademark- and copyright-infringing items, the loss in market share has two components (i) sales lost to consumers who purchase a counterfeit or pirated product believing it is genuine and (ii) sales lost to consumers who knowingly purchase a lower-priced counterfeit or pirated product instead of a genuine article.

counterfeit and pirated products can have longer-term implications. Prices may be lower, for example, if rights owners reduce prices to compete more effectively with counterfeiters and pirates.

 

[h-n-t-w-m-n]

SMH. There is indisputable proof of what we said is true because if applied to your logic, the resale price would trend down, as you stated. It hasn't in any form. That’s proof backed by numbers.

There is most definitely numbers to back the articles you posted otherwise what they said becomes irrelevant. So, where are they?

 

[bigj505]

Hopefully, my 2 cents help chill this argument down some.
From experience, I have seen the value of shoes go down when the public gets a larger release. An example for me was the hoh pearl foams. They were selling for $700 in a year until Nike dropped a similar version a year later in huge numbers.

It looks like the frag pricing has not been impacted by the game royal release. Had the game royals been the frags with no frag logo then I believe the value of the frags would have dropped some.

People can do the custom of the game royals to get the look while frag owners can keep the value of their shoes.

It’s a win win.

 

[ady2glude707]

And another:

as more and more customers are deceived by bogus goods, the market demand, and thus the market price of a particular brand, declines substantially (Hopkins, 2003)

You cant disprove business knowledge/research man. There are no numbers you can provide to prove your specific example about Frags. All you simply pointed out is that resell price has stayed high.

bigj505 - In general do fakes affect the price of goods?

 

[126006]

Yeah it’s not like satin sbb are gonna drive the sbb price down.
The only way prices on anything like this go down is if dummies stop paying the resell prices.
If anything they’ll just go up. Did white off white 1 drive down the price of the Chicago version? Nope, it’s still going up.
Hopefully you guys will take the spat to PM instead of this exchange.

 

[bigj505]

And another:

You cant disprove business knowledge/research man. There are no numbers you can provide to prove your specific example about Frags. All you simply pointed out is that resell price has stayed high.

bigj505 - In general do fakes affect the price of goods?

I don’t believe fakes hurt the price of goods but it’s because, as you pointed out, companies spend a tremendous amount of resources to protect its product therefore making them less common in the wild.

 

[bigj505]

Yeah it’s not like satin sbb are gonna drive the sbb price down.
The only way prices on anything like this go down is if dummies stop paying the resell prices.
If anything they’ll just go up. Did white off white 1 drive down the price of the Chicago version? Nope, it’s still going up.
Hopefully you guys will take the spat to PM instead of this exchange.

I’m not sure why you keep saying off white and Chicago. Those are two different shoes. That comparison was never valid.

 

[126006]

I’m not sure why you keep saying off white and Chicago. Those are two different shoes. That comparison was never valid.

I'm referring to the first ow 1, lol. It sorta does relate--the frag and the game royal are two diff. cw, and i think the argument here is that game royals will drive the frag price down.

 

[bigj505]

I'm referring to the first ow 1, lol. It sorta does relate--the frag and the game royal are two diff. cw, and i think the argument here is that game royals will drive the frag price down.

It doesn’t. The OW is a different shoe tho it’s modeled after the Jordan 1.
The frag and game royal are the same models just different color ways.

Your argument is almost the same as saying the Chicago AJKO or Jordan 1.5 didn’t take down the value of the regular Jordan 1.

 

[126006]

It doesn’t. The OW is a different shoe tho it’s modeled after the Jordan 1.
The frag and game royal are the same models just different color ways.

Your argument is almost the same as saying the Chicago AJKO or Jordan 1.5 didn’t take down the value of the regular Jordan 1.

No? The off white Chicago 1 is the same as the off white all white 1, just a different colorway.