Free Gaza!!!

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by iLLest

Yes, I am Arab. My parents came from Palestine at the age of 18. My dad actually went through the invasion in 1984. Don't listen to OP and his nonsense. Trying to infuriate and get under the skin of people on NT for fun. Threads like these should be locked. I would guess that he is not over 16 years old yet and listens to what his parents say while watching TV and jumps to NT very ill informed. 
iLLest!

I saw your pics in that L.A. pic,and I thought you looked Middle Eastern, but you had glasses on, so I also thought South Asian. Another Palestinian on NT too. Nnniiicceeee. Hi!

I am of Palestinian descent too. There are more Palestinians on here than I thought.
  

 

[martin and co]

At what point, when playing geographical/political musical chairs, does the music stop and all seating arrangements are final? At what point does someone say "ok, stop guys whatever land you have is what you have, and if you try to get more its a war crime"?

Arabs conquered vast lands, which change hands throughout the centuries/millenniums. Arabs/Turks (united by Islam) killed and displaced millions throughout history, and have a far larger impact than Jews ever did in that regard. But, when little Israel gets some land, its a war crime of epic proportions?

I really don't get why there's such a unified hate for Israel. It's as if before Israel the country came into existence, everything was fine and dandy, and now Israel is some kind of menace that has never been seen before. Israel has made more scientific contributions in the last 60 years than Oil rich Arab countries made in the last however many millennium. The majority of the mathematics contributions that Arab leaders like to boast about were lifted from Ancient pre-Arabic Egypt in the same manner the ancient Greeks got mathematical acumen and discoveries from Egypt. All that money that countries like SA, Oman, UAE, Qatar have and the best thing they've come up with was Dubai. All that oil money could put the average arab's standard of living far above any country's.

There are zero constructive solutions to the conflict. The Palestinians could just sue and get a large monetary settlement like the native people of New Zealand, and do something constructive, but its clearly not about land or money, the people who finance the extremist anti-Israel/west groups have plenty of both, and they could care less how those palestinians live.

 

[shaunhillftw49]

Originally Posted by GeneralThirst

Originally Posted by iLLest

OP, I wish I could lay you out.
Astaghfurillah. 

You're new, so I can see an early Ban in the making.

Cue the %%%$ gifs.

iLLest!

Look at you trying to resort to Arab aggression.

Your new, my old user name got hacked. chixNkix been on since 02. 

Ethnicities have their own version of aggression? CSB

 

[icykicks79]

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

Originally Posted by iLLest

Yes, I am Arab. My parents came from Palestine at the age of 18. My dad actually went through the invasion in 1984. Don't listen to OP and his nonsense. Trying to infuriate and get under the skin of people on NT for fun. Threads like these should be locked. I would guess that he is not over 16 years old yet and listens to what his parents say while watching TV and jumps to NT very ill informed. 
iLLest!

I saw your pics in that L.A. pic,and I thought you looked Middle Eastern, but you had glasses on, so I also thought South Asian. Another Palestinian on NT too. Nnniiicceeee. Hi!

I am of Palestinian descent too. There are more Palestinians on here than I thought.
  

Word. Im Muslim 

 whats good 

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by MARTIN AND CO

At what point, when playing geographical/political musical chairs, does the music stop and all seating arrangements are final? At what point does someone say "ok, stop guys whatever land you have is what you have, and if you try to get more its a war crime"?

Arabs conquered vast lands, which change hands throughout the centuries/millenniums. Arabs/Turks (united by Islam) killed and displaced millions throughout history, and have a far larger impact than Jews ever did in that regard. But, when little Israel gets some land, its a war crime of epic proportions?

I really don't get why there's such a unified hate for Israel. It's as if before Israel the country came into existence, everything was fine and dandy, and now Israel is some kind of menace that has never been seen before. Israel has made more scientific contributions in the last 60 years than Oil rich Arab countries made in the last however many millennium. The majority of the mathematics contributions that Arab leaders like to boast about were lifted from Ancient pre-Arabic Egypt in the same manner the ancient Greeks got mathematical acumen and discoveries from Egypt. All that money that countries like SA, Oman, UAE, Qatar have and the best thing they've come up with was Dubai. All that oil money could put the average arab's standard of living far above any country's.

There are zero constructive solutions to the conflict. The Palestinians could just sue and get a large monetary settlement like the native people of New Zealand, and do something constructive, but its clearly not about land or money, the people who finance the extremist anti-Israel/west groups have plenty of both, and they could care less how those palestinians live.

No one is justifying what the Turks and others have done in the PAST. The point is that this is STILL GOING ON TODAY. There is a HUGE difference. Israel STILL kills Palestinian civilians. Israel STILL doesn't allow people/enough aid in or out of Gaza. Israel STILL occupies the West Bank and makes it nearly impossible to move around for Palestinian people. Israel STILL treats Palestinians like dirt and it's 2010. This should not STILL be happening.

You do realize that a large portion of people who live in oil rich countries are actually paid to do next to nothing. They don't pay taxes. They don't have serious jobs. They get checks from the government, free health care etc etc. This is exactly why it's so easy for these places to be dictatorships/kingdoms. When you're receiving everything you get from the government, it's hard to rise up against it. (I just completely refuted every Socialist view I have and I hate myself for it.) The standard of living is not terrible in many Arab countries, but it certainly isn't like ours. As the oil runs out, they're going to face SERIOUS problems.

There are a number of constructive solutions to the conflict, however Israel doesn't want peace. They want to make the Palestinians lives so horrible in the West Bank in Gaza that they up and leave the first chance they get so then they can rewrite history once more and say that these territories were always Israeli land and that there was always a Jewish majority.

Again, Martin & CO. if you decide to step out of your bubble I'd LOVE to give you some books to read. I sincerely mean this. You seem like you've been extremely sheltered and it bothers me that you don't know all the facts.

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by MARTIN AND CO

I guess it was silly to think you can post something without it becoming an all out discourse. Every one of those facts is accurate within its point.


Palestine; from Philistine(s), believed to be non-Semitic people, absorbed into the culture of Canaan, who's land previously belonged to ancient Egypt( ie Egypt before Arabs). Philistines had prolonged military conflicts with the Kingdom is Israel, until the Philistines were converted to Judaism.

There is no "palestinian identity" in the way its presented by modern day Arabs who lay claim to the same lands Israel does.

Look at the maps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines

The Kingdom of Israel existed before Islam (which is the root and motivator of the conflict, not land really, but rather religion) was created.

Hold on a second here, let's elaborate on this point. How do Jewish people lay more claim to the land than Palestinians do when it comes to ancient history?As I previously stated, there were people and tribes before the kindgom of Israel, and even AFTER it. That land was conquered and lived by MANY different empires and tribes. Arabs and Jews, some of them, are an amalgation and descendents of all those tribes. At that time, most tribes were nomads and moved around. How do you know that some did not convert to Judaism centuries later, or that some Arabs did not used to be Jews. You think all Jews today had family who were always of Jewish descent or religion? Has it clicked to you that Palestinian Arabs are not only Muslim????What about Palestinian Christians? Most Arabs converted to Islam, AFTER the Islamic conquest of the Middle East. Throughout millenia and centuries lands get divided and change and different people live in it. But, ever since statehood and nationality laws and boundaries were set, it has changed when it comes to nationhood and what it means today is different than what it meant millenia ago.

No one is denying that the kingdom of Israel existed, but I just do not see how lays claim to it as that land being just Jewish for all those times and 3000 years later. Going back to my family tree, it is said that we established in that land maybe for 1000 years now. How is it that my grandfather cannot step foot in his homeland or take claim of his house again, while a Russian Jew who maybe has not had family established there ever, and just because he is Jewish and it lays claim in the Bible it is their promised land and that Jews had a kingdom there 3000 years ago for a certain period in history can go and settle in Israel and build a new life while my grandparents and parents are not allowed to return? Discrimination and a violation of the law of return for Palestinian Arabs.

  

 

[generalthirst]

Originally Posted by iLLest

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

Originally Posted by iLLest


Fasho you troll.
iLLest!

Are you Arab? I thought maybe you were South Asian.

CallHimAR, I love you.

Always knocking them with knowledge in the most eloquent manner. I had no patience to reply to all those points. I would be giving the longest explanations. lol

  

Yes, I am Arab. My parents came from Palestine at the age of 18. My dad actually went through the invasion in 1984. Don't listen to OP and his nonsense. Trying to infuriate and get under the skin of people on NT for fun. Threads like these should be locked. I would guess that he is not over 16 years old yet and listens to what his parents say while watching TV and jumps to NT very ill informed. 
iLLest!

Don't trip my man I'm not 16!!! I'm the oppressor!!!!!!!




 
I'm just saying I've seen Hamas first hand.

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by icykicks79

Word. Im Muslim 

 whats good 

Oh hi to you too! What's your background?

Well,I think my parents would approve of me marrying Illest since he is of Palestinian descent. So, it can be done so easily. I am just teasing you Illest!

  

 

[martin and co]

AR:


1967 war was the most significant politically. It established Israel for the long term and many essential treaties were established after the war.

Numbers were: 50,000 IDF to 500,000 Arabs

I really don't see how they weren't out numbered.

I don't really get the whole, "I can recommend some books to read" line. You must be pretty full of yourself to assume what books I have and haven't read based on....Which is unfortunate because I liked your posts in other threads...

If you're basing conclusions by only looking at the past 100 years or so in terms of who lived where and who supported who for what reason and why, it would really limit what conclusions you could come to.

"not about religion" - My many persian/arab friends who's family left Persia/Iran in the 70s beg to differ. Yes, the US did play a role, but it was extremist Muslim governing that brought Iran from its hatching days to once again become a leader in science, economics, and business back to the proverbial stone age. Its not as simple as jews and arabs in the palestinian territory. Its a hatred of a tiny segment of the population. If some Muslim leader did allow Jews to live in peace for some short period of time, what good is it if its under his yoke? There was never a muslim-christian-jewish-whoever else peace, it was a series of conflicts ranging in size and result throughout time. The Muslim Warlord's idea of peace is no war going on because he just conquered the neighboring land. Its all religion based because the plan was convert, convert, convert, then fold into the kingdom.

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by MARTIN AND CO

AR:


1967 war was the most significant politically. It established Israel for the long term and many essential treaties were established after the war.

Numbers were: 50,000 IDF to 500,000 Arabs

I really don't see how they weren't out numbered.

I don't really get the whole, "I can recommend some books to read" line. You must be pretty full of yourself to assume what books I have and haven't read based on....Which is unfortunate because I liked your posts in other threads...

If you're basing conclusions by only looking at the past 100 years or so in terms of who lived where and who supported who for what reason and why, it would really limit what conclusions you could come to.

"not about religion" - My many persian/arab friends who's family left Persia/Iran in the 70s beg to differ. Yes, the US did play a role, but it was extremist Muslim governing that brought Iran from its hatching days to once again become a leader in science, economics, and business back to the proverbial stone age. Its not as simple as jews and arabs in the palestinian territory. Its a hatred of a tiny segment of the population. If some Muslim leader did allow Jews to live in peace for some short period of time, what good is it if its under his yoke? There was never a muslim-christian-jewish-whoever else peace, it was a series of conflicts ranging in size and result throughout time. The Muslim Warlord's idea of peace is no war going on because he just conquered the neighboring land. Its all religion based because the plan was convert, convert, convert, then fold into the kingdom.

I wasn't trying to come off as condescending with what I said. I was being extremely sincere because from what you posted on the first page and in your next three posts, it gave me the impression that you were copying and pasting from other sources and preaching a narrow minded world view that you have been taught since you were very young. I wasn't trying to come off as full of myself, I'd just love to help you get a broader view of the situation because yours seems to be very, very narrow.

Hazel addressed your second point above.

I'm a little bit confused at why you're bringing up Iran here.

You can look at the majority of history in general as a great many conflicts with peaces in between. But what matters is that there were still those times of peace. They did happen in the region. To say that the people there never lived in peace simply isn't true.

Edit: Also, I thought you meant to say that the Arabs were never outnumbered in the sense of both wars. If you were speaking about '48, that's why I got so upset because again, it's just not true.

There were 50,000 IDF already mobilized, but there were 200,000 plus in reserves. Again, half the number of the Arab forces but still more than the 50,000 you're stating. Also, here they weren't outsmarted. The majority of the air support was coming from Egypt. Israel took out the Egyptian Air Force in a first strike and essentially won the war here. Without air cover the Egyptian tanks and troops were dead in the desert. Then it became a single front war and the rest is history.

 

[shaunhillftw49]

Originally Posted by CrunkJuicedUp

^Pics?

This is niketalk remember

PYP=Post Your Palestinian?

 

[18th letter]

Israel? I don't know of any place called Israel.

 

[18th letter]

Israel? I don't know of any place called Israel.

 

[18th letter]

Israel? I don't know of any place called Israel.

 

[18th letter]

Israel? I don't know of any place called Israel.

 

[martin and co]

YUKU really sucks, it takes 10 minutes for posts to show up and forever to refresh...


"You seem like you've been extremely sheltered and it bothers me that you don't know all the facts."

Again, you are talking completely out of your rear end, and I really did not want to go there. If you for a second assume that your views are the only right ones and that no one can be as "educated" on a subject as you, you already lost my friend.

I don't see a point to your posts. Israel is never giving any land back, the gaza, west bank, and the golem heights will be Israel's in due time, and thats that. Things "still" going on, so what? What, is now a bad time for bad things to happen? Are we really so much more civil today than 1000 years ago? Just because the land grab across the world has ended changes nothing.

Hazel you don't see the point. We're talking about collective history. "The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic". I feel bad for you and your family, I really do. I think you have right to specific land regardless of what government is in power. My point is that now that Arabs are on the short end of the stick they cry about tragedies, and rightfully so, but Arabs conquered northern Africa and a large portion of Europe at one point, what if that land grab's results stood till today? History could have been reversed and it could have been Israelis in the Palestinian's predicament. However, its not, and its up for debate who has claim to what land by provenance to the point where if Israelis or Arabs take over all of present day Israel its rightfully spoils of war. Every act by Arabic leaders lead to Israel's creation one way or another. 

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by MARTIN AND CO

"not about religion" - My many persian/arab friends who's family left Persia/Iran in the 70s beg to differ. Yes, the US did play a role, but it was extremist Muslim governing that brought Iran from its hatching days to once again become a leader in science, economics, and business back to the proverbial stone age. Its not as simple as jews and arabs in the palestinian territory. Its a hatred of a tiny segment of the population. If some Muslim leader did allow Jews to live in peace for some short period of time, what good is it if its under his yoke? There was never a muslim-christian-jewish-whoever else peace, it was a series of conflicts ranging in size and result throughout time. The Muslim Warlord's idea of peace is no war going on because he just conquered the neighboring land. Its all religion based because the plan was convert, convert, convert, then fold into the kingdom.

Ok, the Persia/Iran discussion is a whole other discussion. Do not let me start talking about the Shah and how backward he was when it came to freedoms and violation of human rights. He was a raging monarch dictator who brutalized and murdered civilians all the while ruling with an iron fist. The Shah and the sole support of the U.S. who backed him made the mullahs and Islamic fundamentalism rise out of its ashes.

What do you mean Jews,Christians and Muslims never lived in peace? For most time in history in the region of Palestine, it was peaceful coexistence. Yes, there were quarrels,riots,and fights here and there, but that mostly escalated when there began to be squabbles about territory and because of the Jewish immigration.

Let me ask you something, why do you keep just mentioning Muslims? The Palestinian Christians are united with Muslims when it comes to Israeli occupation and wanting nationhood as much as their Muslim Palestinian counterparts. It has a heck lot more to do than religion or just "Muslims". Plus, the way that territory was partitioned was done unjustly,unfairly, and completely disregard the participation of the indigenous Arab natives of the land. Of course, this was going to be a cluster@#$% since the colonizers and Zionists partitioned that region to give most of the land to Jews. Also, the way Israel was created was by ethnically cleansing Palestinians Arabs, and was done by force, which how most nations were created anyways. But, in times of international law and human rights which are cemented on paper, and to right the wrongs of history and avoid atrocities on a grand scale as such happened in the past, that is why Israel is seen as the occupier and agressor, because of what it does on a daily basis to deny Palestinians their livelihood and rights to freedom and independence.
  

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by MARTIN AND CO

Hazel you don't see the point. We're talking about collective history. "The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic". I feel bad for you and your family, I really do. I think you have right to specific land regardless of what government is in power. My point is that now that Arabs are on the short end of the stick they cry about tragedies, and rightfully so, but Arabs conquered northern Africa and a large portion of Europe at one point, what if that land grab's results stood till today? History could have been reversed and it could have been Israelis in the Palestinian's predicament. However, its not, and its up for debate who has claim to what land by provenance to the point where if Israelis or Arabs take over all of present day Israel its rightfully spoils of war. Every act by Arabic leaders lead to Israel's creation one way or another. 

But, Martin, you cannot bring collective history because the way things were done centuries ago are different in context to how they are done in recent decades or centuries. Back then, there were no specific international institutions or standards or such things as international law to dictate political and international affairs. That plays a big part into it and would be taken so differently now. At the time when Israel was established as a state, and partitioned, and in 1967 when it occupied the rest of the territories, it had to abide by international law and standards to which it still violates today. Palestinians have every right to their statehood and nationhood as they were promised under international law. The ultimate root of this conflict is the occupation.

  

 

[callhimar]

YUKU really sucks, it takes 10 minutes for posts to show up and forever to refresh...


"You seem like you've been extremely sheltered and it bothers me that you don't know all the facts."

Again,you are talking completely out of your rear end, and I really did notwant to go there. If you for a second assume that your views are theonly right ones and that no one can be as "educated" on a subject asyou, you already lost my friend.

I don't see a point to yourposts. Israel is never giving any land back, the gaza, west bank, andthe golem heights will be Israel's in due time, and thats that. Things"still" going on, so what? What, is now a bad time for bad things tohappen? Are we really so much more civil today than 1000 years ago?Just because the land grab across the world has ended changes nothing.

Seriously YUKU is upsetting the hell out of me right now.

I only say this because that's what it sounds like. I'm not saying I'm more educated on the subject than you, I'm saying we may know our two viewpoints very well. You know yours, and you're presenting it, and I know mine and I'm presenting it. I want to introduce you to more of mine because I want you to understand why I think this way. I want you to read what I've read so you can see things how I see it. I'd be MORE than happy to accept suggestions from you as well that don't relate to Alan Dershowitz.

Your second point is EXACTLY what is wrong. They NEED to give back this land. If we as humans allow them to take Gaza and the West Bank then WE as a collective have failed the Palestinian people. Why should I sit idly by and watch as another injustice takes place? Why shouldn't I stand up and say this is wrong and it needs to be righted? Now we have international law that protects human rights, and many things Israel does violates these laws and they need to be held accountable for their actions.

 

[martin and co]

If you don't see what Iran has to do with it I'm sorry, maybe I should start recommending books?


My only source that was C+P'd was the one I quoted to illustrate the fact that those weren't my words, I linked to wikipedia because I don't have time to discuss every historical intricacies from a bygone era...

If you want to take religion out of this, then the picture you paint is a Columbus and native American scenario where the peaceful Arabs were just minding their business, and the Jews, a group of people they had no knowledge of or interaction with, come out of nowhere and start stacking bodies and taking names, laying claim to all the land in their sights.

The bottom line is Jews got a country that their whole religion revolves around, after thousands of years of persecution wherever they went (one king invites them, dies, replacement king kicks them out)

There are 26 official Muslim states, 18 official Christian states......drumroll....1 Jewish state. To all Arabs that never lived in palestine (the #1 bankrollers of terrorism), why is Israel such a priority? Do they really want the land of the 150th smallest country in the world? Do they pursue a settlement for property and land taken from Palestinian Arabs? No! They have lots of land and money that they won't share with their "own people" who they support so much but really could care less about if the religious aspect was out of the picture.

Why is there so much hate for one of the most progressive countries in the world? What do Arab countries export besides Petro and Petro-products? Dates? The only country that has more start-ups per capita and more NASDAQ listed companies in real numbers than Israel is the US. Israel published more scientific papers than any other country in the world. The conflict is prolonged because Arab countries surrounding Israel and extremist religious movements against it have got involved. Israel exists and time isn't going to move backwards, what do you want Israel to do? I don't get it. A problem is a problem only if it has a solution, its that simple.

 

[spsfinest212]

Well someone has to stand up for Palestine and give them weapons. We all know America and other Europe countries give Israel all the weapons they want(I wouldn't be surprised if Netenyahu is already sitting on nukes).

 

[anathema]

Originally Posted by Animal Thug1539

This is always a sensative subject on NT. I'm forced to stay out of these threads due to the ignorance and uneducated responses.

Much respect to AR and Hazel. Very staright forward point of views and accurate responses. That's all I gotta say.

Exactly right about AR and Hazel...they echo my thoughts on the subject almost verbatim.

 

[anathema]

Originally Posted by Animal Thug1539

This is always a sensative subject on NT. I'm forced to stay out of these threads due to the ignorance and uneducated responses.

Much respect to AR and Hazel. Very staright forward point of views and accurate responses. That's all I gotta say.

Exactly right about AR and Hazel...they echo my thoughts on the subject almost verbatim.

 

[callhimar]

You're simply not listening. Israel is progressive in WHO'S eyes? Surely not the Palestinian peoples who they oppress, kill, detain, and make life staggeringly difficult for. Surely not in the eyes of anyone who believes in basic human rights.

No one in their right mind in the modern era believes that the state of Israel should be completely dismantled. I understand Israel is there and it isn't going anywhere. What YOU need to understand is that Israel does NOT encompass the territory of the West Bank and Gaza. These areas simply are not a part of Israel. They are occupied territory. They have more start ups and companies on the NASDAQ because the United States funds the entire country. Same with the scientific papers. There are MANY solutions. So yes, this is a problem.

If you want to take religion out of this, then the picture you paint isa Columbus and native American scenario where the peaceful Arabs werejust minding their business, and the Jews, a group of people they hadno knowledge of or interaction with, come out of nowhere and startstacking bodies and taking names, laying claim to all the land in theirsights.

No, in fact they lived in peace for a bit. Things got tense when absentee land owners started selling land that other Arabs lived on and the Zionists tried to remove these people. This was only because the land changed hands all the time, but the people were always allowed to stay until the Zionists came and changed this. It got much worse after the Israeli power structure started a campaign of ethnic cleansing in Palestine.

It isn't that these countries don't want to share, its that the Palestinian people deserve their own state. How can you justify giving one stateless people a state by pushing out another people and making them stateless. It's mind boggling.

 

[martin and co]

Your second point is EXACTLY what is wrong. They NEED to give back this land. If we as humans allow them to take Gaza and the West Bank then WE as a collective have failed the Palestinian people. Why should I sit idly by and watch as another injustice takes place? Why shouldn't I stand up and say this is wrong and it needs to be righted? Now we have international law that protects human rights, and many things Israel does violates these laws and they need to be held accountable for their actions.
But what about the dozens of other ethnic groups all over the world that have been shafted out of their own country and land? Where is their knight in shining armor? There are so many different groups in China, US, South America, Africa, India/SE Asia, China, etc that deserve land no less than palestinian arabs who've been shafted do.  They were nomads at that, so why not move around some more? The land is not going to be given back, to talk about it is the equivalent of those "save darfur" rallies that over-privileged suburban youth attend, thinking they're making a difference. So even if I agree with everything you say, where do we go from there? Ok, its all wrong, now what? Write to your congressman? Join Hamas?

Hazel - Like I said I feel for your family, I really do, but besides some words on paper, nothing has changed. Human nature has not changed. Conflicts have been hushed down but not really over. The countries who write these international laws are never bound by them, its easy for Switzerland and Sweden to talk about humanitarianism after Sweden gets crushed by Russia and never fights again, and Switzerland just launders money for Nazis but never kills anyone first hand, so its all ok. You can't take any kind of modern laws or conventions seriously when they relate to thousand year old conflicts that have never been fully resolved. Words on a piece of paper means nothing to me or any scumbag politician, they change and interpret them as they suit them.