Free Gaza!!!

[kickmatic23]

Oh boy here we go.. someone get the popcorn .gif please

I'm gonna sit this one out..

 

[essential1]

You can't out right defend Israel... It is madness. They have been just as guilty in terrorism as the countries they have called terrorist havens.

I got no problem with having Israel's back..but this country went off the deep end and let Israel call the shots for us with our money, our backing, and without the two the middle east would look 100% different.

Israel complains about all the issues they have to face. Of course they have a right to exist, and Palestine shouldn't attack them but Israel starts just as much conflict by continuing a progressive settlement strategy. If Native Americans were a large enough population and started doing that in the US, would you call us terrorists if we fought back. OF COURSE NOT..

They deserve just as much blame as Palestine for these conflicts.

I'm sick of hearing all this about Hamas.. I get they are a terrorist organization and I despise them but they are a democratically elected government. We can't push democracy on people and then complain when democracy gives something other than the desired results.

Israel has created an Illegal blockade of Gaza, tortured this group of people, preemptively attacked a NATO country in International Waters (that is an act of war). The Israeli commandos could have searched the ship that is good and fine, but they came onto the ship shooting. And when the ship surrendered were still shooting. They even killed an American citizen. Thank god Turkey showed restraint because we would then have to fight with Turkey against Israel in a War.

This blanket support of Israel without any questions is sickening. I understand they are our allies and we should have their back. But we should also have their back to tell them when they are wrong and when their policies will not create peace. That is what an ally does. We don't support England blindly and that is our most important alley. Japan, France, Australia we don't support any of them 100%. They are not our uncle we don't have to blindly support them. We should have the heart to be objective with them. Because in the end we are their protector and we help them more than anyone. It is about time we actually give help instead of allowing the degrading of the whole middle east

 

[callhimar]

But what about the dozens of other ethnic groups all over the worldthat have been shafted out of their own country and land? Where istheir knight in shining armor? There are so many different groups inChina, US, South America, Africa, India/SE Asia, China, etc thatdeserve land no less than palestinian arabs who've been shafted do. They were nomads at that, so why not move around some more? The land isnot going to be given back, to talk about it is the equivalent of those"save darfur" rallies that over-privileged suburban youth attend,thinking they're making a difference. So even if I agree witheverything you say, where do we go from there? Ok, its all wrong, nowwhat? Write to your congressman? Join Hamas?
You're right, there are a number of others. They deserve attention as well. Why are you trying to veer off topic though?

Also, that point you made about the Palestinian Arabs being nomads is again, false. There were nomads who lived in Palestine, but they were by no means all nomads.

Why isn't the land going to be given back? Why should I be hopeless? Why can't I at least TRY to make a difference. If enough people were to write their Congressmen, and our government wasn't dominated by lobbyists who have more sway over Congress than the actual American people things would certainly be significantly different. I really do hope for change. Not in the form of a man who uses those as buzzwords to win an election, but in actual change to the entire system. Who are you to tell me that this simply cannot happen? That is exactly what is wrong with America, everyone is either too apathetic or feels they can't make a difference when it's the people like us, who if we were to band together and DO SOMETHING, are the only ones who COULD FORCE change.

 

[martin and co]

"They have more start ups and companies on the NASDAQ because the United States funds the entire country. Same with the scientific papers"

Egypt gets the same amount of aid as Israel but besides being more friendly to the US, they're not doing much. But if aid comes from the US, wouldn't the US have more scientific papers than just some tiny country they give a few B to each year? Saudi Arabia is far richer as a country but again, besides oil and assets purchased with oil money that anyone with money can buy, there no social or economic progress. You could say with the laws in countries like SA they terrorize their own people but that's a different story.

Palestinians never had a state, so they were always stateless. What do you want to call the BMP? Their state? You think it would eventually repatriate to some entity like HK to China? England had oil interests to look after long term, and there was not that much left to do in HK once they doped everyone with opium so they half-way gave it back to China as a way to ease their imperialistic profile that other countries in Europe were now chastising (only because their reigns abroad were over) them over.

There really is no solution, gaza, heights, wb is Israel's manifest destiny, and since the US natives aren't getting their land back (btw everyone here in the US is illegally occupying it so lets right a wrong closer to home first) I wouldn't be too hopeful for the Arabs.

Even if those 3 properties were handed over sight unseen and a "real" palestine was created, no extremist muslim leaders would agree to just that, they want all the jews out of the middle east, and there would just be further conflict about repatriation of more and more land. To think just those three, or really any sizable properties handed to palestinians freehold would solve anything is delusional. No one wants land they want the Jews out, some Saudis and Iranians say it outright some still say its really about some tiny scraps of land when they have more land than they can settle.

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by MARTIN AND CO

"They have more start ups and companies on the NASDAQ because the United States funds the entire country. Same with the scientific papers"

Egypt gets the same amount of aid as Israel but besides being more friendly to the US, they're not doing much. But if aid comes from the US, wouldn't the US have more scientific papers than just some tiny country they give a few B to each year? Saudi Arabia is far richer as a country but again, besides oil and assets purchased with oil money that anyone with money can buy, there no social or economic progress. You could say with the laws in countries like SA they terrorize their own people but that's a different story.

I also explained the nature of oil rich countries previously. So I'm not going to again. It's true that the democracy Israel has allows it to flourish as well, but that is only one component.

Palestinians never had a state,

The United Nations Partition Plan says otherwise. There was land promised for a Palestinian state.

Even if those 3 properties were handed over sight unseen and a "real"palestine was created, no extremist muslim leaders would agree to justthat, they want all the jews out of the middle east, and there wouldjust be further conflict about repatriation of more and more land. Tothink just those three, or really any sizable properties handed topalestinians freehold would solve anything is delusional. No one wantsland they want the Jews out, some Saudis and Iranians say it outrightsome still say its really about some tiny scraps of land when they havemore land than they can settle.
I'm really glad that you've seen the future. You're right, extremist Muslim leaders may not agree, but it's also true that extremist Muslims only make up a very, very small portion of the overall Muslim community. So it would not be much of a threat. I don't know who you're speaking for, but contrary to what you believe, they want land and they want an autonomous state. Again, this is why I offer to suggest you reading material because the things your educating yourself with are giving you a completely delusional interpretation of the situation.

What it comes down to is you can believe whatever you want, I speak in facts. I don't know where you're getting your so called facts, but they're extremely misguided.

 

[wawaweewa]

There is no solution to this problem whereby both sides would be accepting of it.
The solution that many keep talking about is pure fantasy.

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Martin, you are showing such ethnocentric and prejudice notions coming out of your posts. You are basically implying Arabs/Muslims as backwards, unprogressive and a bunch of hooligans. You even dismissed the contribution of the Islamic Golden Age and Arab inventions all the while glorifying Israeli/Jewish contributions. Such a superiority complex. How do you expect me to have a civil discussion with you when you have such ill advised preconceived notions, misconceptions and basically see Arabs or Muslims as backward savages?

If you even tried to make a distinction in knowing that Islamic leaders or mullahs or sheikhs or whatever, are not wholly representative of Arab people or Muslims. By the way, just know that these Islamic or Arab incompetent leaders, most of them are backed and supported by the powerful Western governments and these regimes were put in place during decolonization to serve the interest of the West. Infact, Arabs come in many different faiths and ideals and do not place them as being who they are represented by.

How about you learn to unveil yourself from such ignorance and try maybe to see us humans just like you are.

Illest - My family is from this town called Bal3a, near Tulkarem in the West Bank. You? Oh hun,you are 20. Still so young. Any older brothers, cousins for arranged marriages? How about this, if I am 36,still not married and you are not either, and once I hit cougar status, we can hook something up.

Just teasing you again.

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by wawaweewa

There is no solution to this problem whereby both sides would be accepting of it.
The solution that many keep talking about is pure fantasy.

That doesn't mean that it is impossible to reach one. It also doesn't mean that since they aren't accepting of it now no one ever will be. Some of you must lead extremely depressing lives with such bleak outlooks on everything. The solution isn't fantasy. There are preconditions that Israel just can't seem to meet to get everyone to the table. (ie. Halting all settlement building.)

 

[martin and co]

You're right, there are a number of others. They deserve attention as well. Why are you trying to veer off topic though?

Also, that point you made about the Palestinian Arabs being nomads is again, false. There were nomads who lived in Palestine, but they were by no means all nomads.

Why isn't the land going to be given back? Why should I be hopeless? Why can't I at least TRY to make a difference. If enough people were to write their Congressmen, and out government wasn't dominated by lobbyists who have more sway over Congress than the actual American people things would certainly be significantly different. I really do hope for change. Not in the form of a man who uses those as buzzwords to win an election, but in actual change to the entire system. Who are you to tell me that this simply cannot happen? That is exactly what is wrong with America, everyone is either too apathetic or feels they can't make a difference when it's the people like us, who if we were to band together and DO SOMETHING, are the only ones who COULD FORCE change.
Where is that veering off topic? Mentioning other pursuits as hopeless as this Isreali conflict that get far less attention to illustrate the fact that the money behind the Palestinian PR is large to elevate an issue so small compared to others is right up this topics alley...

Hazel mentioned the nomadic factor so the nomad comment was directed there, not mentioned as a fact.

Also I feel I should state the following: I'm not defending Israel, I have 0 ties to it. The comment about my views somehow being related to how I was raised and what I was taught is also a foolish assumption, as my parents have 0 ties and no feelings of any kind toward Israel, and I don't really remember them discussing it at all, at least no more or less than any other country. 

The whole, "oh what can we do" vs "everyones just too apathetic" paradigm in our culture is what it is. It's the truth both ways. There are a number of other problems that need fixing that I would put my support behind before the Israel/Pali conflict that hit closer to home. Having a penny vested in every global and social problem without focus just makes you (not YOU in particular) a generic liberal who agrees with the lots of ideas that lots of groups push because its easier to just agree and talk about how wrong something is than doing something. Though I don't support them, "real" palestinian freedom fighters dont spend their time behind computers telling people how bad Israel is (don't think that I don't think the OP's post was pointless...1 vid and no discussion equals what exactly?). Get filthy rich and do something, its the only way to make any real difference. The only reason why the US supports Israel in the extent and ways that it does are all the pro-Israel lobbies with millions of dollars to burn. Again, just like outsmarting the Arabs in 67' (taking out their air support isn't smart?), Jews do the same thing here in America, they know the power of the all mighty dollar and exactly how to spend it to get results. If Saudi Arabia really cared about Palestine instead of financing terror they could spend ridiculous money lobbying for interests of the Palestinians, not just their own oil interests. But again, what do so many Arab countries with so much money and land want with little Israel's land, why don't they seek monetary compensation? Its not about land or money, it's about historical hatred for Jews and non-Muslims.

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by wawaweewa

There is no solution to this problem whereby both sides would be accepting of it.
The solution that many keep talking about is pure fantasy.

You are of an Israeli background right? You might have a completely different viewpoint of mine on this conflict but I like reading your posts in these type of discussions. You come at it in an eloquent way. I also find you do not try to group all Palestinians/Arabs certain way from what I remember.

I actually like discussing with people from different viewpoints. I learn more that way and it is also a challenge for me.
  

 

[callhimar]

Where is that veering off topic? Mentioning other pursuits as hopelessas this Isreali conflict that get far less attention to illustrate thefact that the money behind the Palestinian PR is large to elevate anissue so small compared to others is right up this topics alley...

None of these issues are small issues. They are huge issues and people need to be informed about them

The whole, "oh what can we do" vs "everyones just too apathetic"paradigm in our culture is what it is. It's the truth both ways. Thereare a number of other problems that need fixing that I would put mysupport behind before the Israel/Pali conflict that hit closer to home.Having a penny vested in every global and social problem without focusjust makes you (not YOU in particular) a generic liberal who agreeswith the lots of ideas that lots of groups push because its easier tojust agree and talk about how wrong something is than doing something.Though I don't support them, "real" palestinian freedom fighters dontspend their time behind computers telling people how bad Israel is(don't think that I don't think the OP's post was pointless...1 vid andno discussion equals what exactly?). Get filthy rich and do something,its the only way to make any real difference. The only reason why theUS supports Israel in the extent and ways that it does are all thepro-Israel lobbies with millions of dollars to burn. Again, just likeoutsmarting the Arabs in 67' (taking out their air support isn'tsmart?), Jews do the same thing here in America, they know the power ofthe all mighty dollar and exactly how to spend it to get results. IfSaudi Arabia really cared about Palestine instead of financing terrorthey could spend ridiculous money lobbying for interests of thePalestinians, not just their own oil interests. But again, what do somany Arab countries with so much money and land want with littleIsrael's land, why don't they seek monetary compensation? Its not aboutland or money, it's about historical hatred for Jews and non-Muslims.

I hate this whole paragraph. Especially the "get filthy rich and do something" part. It's sickening that money trumps all else. It's upsetting that people don't have the common decency to care about others issues in the world.

You're right, taking out their air support was a great idea.

The Saudi government doesn't finance terror. They in fact fight terror at home. Bin Laden hates the Saudis just as much as he hates America. And the feeling is mutual. There aren't many Arab millionaires in this country, but in time there will be, and then maybe they'll use the Capitalist political model to get their points across and get something done.

There are options where instead of the right of return being granted to the Palestinians who were forced to leave in '48 there would be some type of large financial compensation. This is actually a popular option and something I would certainly agree with. However that doesn't mean Israel will get the West Bank and Gaza. No one proposes this because it's wrong.

This discussion is about to move somewhere else I think.

 

[mo matik]

I got to this late but, there is so much misinformation about this conflict, posting slide show youtube vids won't really garner anyone's attention who has any understanding of the conflict at all.

Respect the documentary record.  Post good sources. 

I can't imagine the ignorance in, not arguing that Israelis aren't making the humanitarian crisis worse, but actuality attempting to argue that there isn't a humanitarian crisis at all.

 

[martin and co]

Hazel I think only your ignorance is unveiled because your are making assumptions on my ethnicity based on what? Are you assuming I'm Jewish? What statements have I made, or ideas I have interjected, that center around my ethnicity?

The golden ages that both greece/rome and Islamic empires had were largely based on inventions and mathematics discovered and developed by the ancient egyptians, that all the groups lifted from them during their conquests over them.

The problem is Islamic leaders ARE representative of Arabs/Muslims because they REPRESENT them in the most literal sense of the word. I know what you are saying but its not as if the voices of the many people matter at all. Mullahs and sheiks will call things as they see fit and decide for everyone. I have a friend who is Jordanian and Catholic but Arabs are overwhelmingly muslim to the point there being no reason to discuss their many faiths.

I'm not implying anything, I bluntly state that the majority(with maybe Morocco or Algeria being exceptions) of Arab(therefore Muslim, since that is the state religion) leadership is backwards and unprogressive. The only Muslim-majority country that has seen any real economic growth and maturity is Turkey and its a secular country. Israel has done more in Science in the past 60 years than Arab countries combined in the past 200 (well, far more than 200, but we'll stop there) with a TINY fraction of the money that the oil rich countries have had at their disposal. The latest feat of modernization of a Muslim/Arab lead country is building Dubai, a city built on what amounts to slave labor while sheik mohammed al maktoum water skis behind his 500 foot yacht on solid gold water skis while the majority of the muslim/arab population lives in poverty.

Callhim- the problem is your knowlege is second hand knowledge. You know what someone wants by reading a book? You have no idea who wants what and who really controls what and what their reasons are for wanting what they want. I don't pretend to know any of that first hand, but the power structure changes all the time so what someone agrees to today will not fly tomorrow, etc.

 

[martin and co]

You say you explained oil countries like I had no idea what was going until you blessed me with you knowledge oh wise one. So, Israel is successful because of all the aid they get as you say, but instead of living like the emiraties do where they get free houses upon marriage, no show govt jobs that pay 6 figures, and other nice bonuses, Israel makes something of itself. Why aren't Israelis driving chrome purple bentleys that they buy from that aid money sloshing around?

Muslim leaders make up a small percentage of the population, but unfortunately that are the Muslim LEADERS. They can shoot down any deal they want, regardless of how beneficial it is to the people. This has happened before.

"There was land promised for a Palestinian state." - Freed African slaves were promised 40 acres and a mule.......

 

[mo matik]

 Israel has done morein Science in the past 60 years than Arab countries combined in thepast 200 (well, far more than 200, but we'll stop there) with a TINYfraction of the money that the oil rich countries have had at theirdisposal. The latest feat of modernization of a Muslim/Arab leadcountry is building Dubai, a city built on what amounts to slave laborwhile sheik mohammed al maktoum water skis behind his 500 foot yacht onsolid gold water skis while the majority of the muslim/arab populationlives in poverty.
Undoubtedly true.  But if you're going to point this out, you also have to acknowledge that:

a-A majority of Muslims are not Arab.  In fact a minority is Arab.  I forget the actual numbers, might edit with it soon, but it's surprising to most non-Muslims.
b-America strongly supports these very dictatorships and regimes. 

It's one of the main reasons for the war on terror we have today.

I don't see what this has to do with the Israel-Palestine conflict though.

 

[callhimar]

Callhim- the problem is your knowlege is second hand knowledge. Youknow what someone wants by reading a book? You have no idea who wantswhat and who really controls what and what their reasons are forwanting what they want. I don't pretend to know any of that first hand,but the power structure changes all the time so what someone agrees totoday will not fly tomorrow, etc.


A lot of what I read is from journalists with a great deal of first hand accounts. There are primary sources that I read as well. Opinions are like.. well you know. Power structures do change. So do opinions. Nothing is permanent. But right now, something needs to be done for these people. To sit idly by and allow them to be denied access to food, water, and basic human rights is deplorable.

 

[martin and co]

"I hate this whole paragraph. Especially the "get filthy rich and do something" part. It's sickening that money trumps all else. It's upsetting that people don't have the common decency to care about others issues in the world."

And eating bags of suger and drinking canola oil is sickening but its also the fastest way to become obese/get diabetes...Its not a new concept.."money makes the world go around"

Mo- Majority of muslims are not arabs but the majority of arabs are muslims, your point? Its well known to anyone who keeps up with current events that most Muslims are from Indonesia and that part of the world...but that has little to do with the discussion at hand...

You can blame America for the world's problems, everyone seems too, and sometimes rightfully so, but its just an easy excuse at this point...Don't you want to show up America by being more free and financially independent beyond the west's wildest dreams?

 

[wawaweewa]

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

Originally Posted by wawaweewa

There is no solution to this problem whereby both sides would be accepting of it.
The solution that many keep talking about is pure fantasy.

That doesn't mean that it is impossible to reach one. It also doesn't mean that since they aren't accepting of it now no one ever will be. Some of you must lead extremely depressing lives with such bleak outlooks on everything. The solution isn't fantasy. There are preconditions that Israel just can't seem to meet to get everyone to the table. (ie. Halting all settlement building.)

Of course there is a solution but one side will have to get the short end of the stick. Invariably, that stick will be of an extremely short nature not because one side wants to screw the other over just for the heck of it but because geographically that is all that the land will allow.

A state is more than just land. Land in and of itself is not the end all, be all. It is the quality of the land that matters. You use it ( and at times abuse it) to extract wealth which you use to enhance your life. If all the Palestinians wanted was just land, they could have already had it. However, the Palestinians are not fools.  They realize that in order to have a viable state where they neither have to kiss the toes of the other Arab nations nor of the (current) Global hegemon (whether that be the US today or someone else in the future), they need quality land.

Sadly this type of land is in very short supply in what is known as Israel and the Palestinian territories. The wars between Israel and the Arabs (after the initial '48 war) were never just about land in the abstract. It was about quality land (Golan Heights for protection, water reservoirs along the Jordan River, coastal waters deep enough to sustain import/export ports, etc.) that would allow Israel to be a viable state and succeed economically. If more people understood this then it would be apparent why Israel is not willing to give up these things.

There is no solution unless 1 side resigns itself to a statehood of stagnant economic development and a poor quality of life. Can you fault either side for not choosing to accept this route? Now, of course the Palestinians are not in the best of positions currently but you have to remember once borders are defined through any agreement the only way of moving them is through war. Is all out war with Israel who commands a nuclear arsenal  a viable solution for the Palestinians in order to acquire the quality land that they need? Probably not.

There is no solution that is satisfactory to both sides. It really is as simple as that.

 

[mo matik]

Originally Posted by MARTIN AND CO


You can blame America for the world's problems, everyone seems too, and sometimes rightfully so, but its just an easy excuse at this point...Don't you want to show up America by being more free and financially independent beyond the west's wildest dreams?

You think the public is fine living in poverty?  Of course they are not.  Like I said, it is one of the root causes of the violent "revolution" taking place in the Middle East today.  This is no conspiracy theory, it's the truth.  All foreign correspondents and journalists with any experience in the region will tell you the same thing.  It's much easier to control a dictatorship than a democracy.  Condi herself has admitted to it at the RNC Convention in 2000.

Either way, I still don't see what this has to do with the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

Majority of muslims are not arabs but the majority of arabs are muslims, your point?
My point is you can't generalize all Muslims on the basis of Arabs.  You said this:

The problem is Islamic leaders ARE representative of Arabs/Muslimsbecause they REPRESENT them in the most literal sense of the word

 

[g to tha t]

Originally Posted by MARTIN AND CO

You say you explained oil countries like I had no idea what was going until you blessed me with you knowledge oh wise one. So, Israel is successful because of all the aid they get as you say, but instead of living like the emiraties do where they get free houses upon marriage, no show govt jobs that pay 6 figures, and other nice bonuses, Israel makes something of itself. Why aren't Israelis driving chrome purple bentleys that they buy from that aid money sloshing around?

at least the UAE government knows how to take care of it's citizens.

 

[moneymike88]

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

Originally Posted by MARTIN AND CO

A bunch of crock of B.S. 

Israel was never a state until its establishment in as a state in 1948. Historically, the area known as Palestine has been occupied by many different peoples, even BEFORE those who identified themselves as Jews or Arabs. To try and identify the ORIGINAL people in the area is a useless exercise. There were tribes there even before Jews came from Egypt. Some Palestinian Arabs can be traced to be descendents of those ancient tribes in the Land of Canaan. Historically, the kingdom of Israel was preceded by non-Jewish kingdoms and succeeded by non-Jewish kingdoms too.

There was never a Palestinian identity? Infact, people in that land used to called Palestinian whether they were Jews or Arabs Muslims or Christians. That land used to be predominantly Muslim, with the majority being Arabs for also thousands of years, until 1948. However, Arabs Muslims and CHristians, as well as Jews, used to all get along and coexist peacefully. Do you even think anyone used to be called Israeli or there was some sort of Israeli identity before the Jewish state of Israel was created?

Palestinians were forced to leave by their Arab leaders? How about they were being invaded and some left due to fear, or because of persecution, or to seek refuge and safety? Isn' that what happens in wars? Some were also forced out when their homes were demolished or invaded or their villages were massacred. This cannot be denied, it is all documented in historical records and archives.

Cut the crap of how Palestinian culture or identity doesn ot exist. That is a whole propaganda by extremist Zionist thinking who want to ethnically cleanse Palestinians and the Palestinian people as being some sort of nonexistent entity of people.

 
 

  

 

[23kidd]

 

[gucci mane]

nothingvis going to change because the majority of the money that funds campaigns in the US comes from ___. The US backs ANYthing Israel does.

 

[scshift]

I agreed with Hazel, Illist and AR but to be honest my POV now is that there is no solution. It's true and inevitable because neither side now is going to back down. Just look at an everyday situation. 2 people get into an argument and even if one realizes they're losing/lost, they won't admit it. It's a pride thing and it goes beyond who was right and who wasn't. This situation is just like that on a much bigger scale. Do any of you honestly think one day there's going to be a press conference and one of the leaders of the countries says "we were wrong to kill so many of their citizens, it is their land and we will move out"? It's not going to happen.

at this because it shows how pitiful people are. Everyone here is saying we should act humanly and intervene but what is the definition of humane? Is it to kill off the wrong side? I think it's to find a way to let them coexist. It's not going to happen and I can't see it happening. But it's too bad that those are the small things that people care about, racial and territorial differences, when there are bigger problems in this world. All the money, manpower and time could have been spent trying to discover a cure for cancer or something, but instead it's just adding to more death. Some things will never change.

 

[dj bana]

Wow @ the amount of knowledgeable NTers. These posts used to be dominated with ignorance.

Glad to see there are people of both Israeli/Palestinian descent, this has been an interesting read.. despite the first video posted, smh.

I (and my family) are of Israeli decent. Very difficult topic to discuss because i only want peace for everyone.

My brother currently lives in Israel and is working on conflict resolution between the Israeli government and Palestinian residents.

He was in the West Bank 2 days ago where he met a Palestinian man who has lived there for decades. The stories he tells me are so crazy. I only hope to see peace in my lifetime =[.