HAKEEM THE DREAM BEING UNDERAPPRECIATED DISAPPRECAITION POST...vol. Best Ever.

[jstar25]

if im not mistaken hakeem was the only one to win DPOY and MVP in the same season
Jordan did it as well. But Hakeem went on to win the title and was also Finals MVP.

 

[jstar25]

if im not mistaken hakeem was the only one to win DPOY and MVP in the same season
Jordan did it as well. But Hakeem went on to win the title and was also Finals MVP.

 

[6 Rings G.O.A.T.]

Hakeem is the only player to win MVP/ DMVP/ and finals MVP in the same year..1994

Hakeem also retire in the top 10 all- time in:

Scoring
Rebounding
Steals
Blocks



That is insane that a Center is in the top 10 all-time in steals!!

 

[6 Rings G.O.A.T.]

Hakeem is the only player to win MVP/ DMVP/ and finals MVP in the same year..1994

Hakeem also retire in the top 10 all- time in:

Scoring
Rebounding
Steals
Blocks



That is insane that a Center is in the top 10 all-time in steals!!

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Cake, I get what you're sayin about Dream didn't win more titles because of Bird/Magic/Jordan winnin most of them for a decade, but here's the thing though, Jordan didn't beat Dream.  Bird didn't beat Dream.  Magic only knocked the Dream off in the 80's. 

In the 90's, in his prime, they weren't even getting to the finals.  We all know who Mike faced each of those years, then suddenly the 2 years he was out, Dream came in and got his 2, and when Mike came back, Dream wasn't there already. 

So in a sense, the question still would remain, why didn't he get more done?  In 93 they were beat by the Sonics, whom the Suns took down.  In 96 they were beat by the Sonics again, who did go onto the finals.  So his window of truly doing anything title wise was basically 4 years.  (minus the 80's when he was a kid with Ralph Sampson)  In 92 they didn't even make the playoffs, and the unit he won the titles with was there for that 93 series with the Sonics. 


Maybe the Rockets just weren't managed properly during his time, but I truly only remember worrying about his team those 2 years they won when Mike was away.  And honestly if Nick Anderson makes a free throw, that could have chanced the entire way those Magic played the rest of that series, and we look at both Shaq, and Dream in a complete different light. 

Magic only beat Hakeem when his team was complete garbage, when he had a decent team in 86 it was Hakeem who won. Bird was the only one of the three to beat Hakeem when it counted in the 86 finals.

In 92 they didn't make the playoffs because Hakeem didn't play 12 games that year. The Rockets were 40-30 in the 70 games Hakeem played and 2-10 in the 12 games he missed which just shows how garbage the Rockets were without Hakeem. In the end the Lakers got the last playoff spot with 43 wins just one more than the Rockets and it is evident that the Rockets would've made the playoffs had Hakeem played the remaining games or even half.

I never get tired of hearing that "had Nick Anderson made that free-throw" comment. Always good for a laugh. You as a "Lakers" fan should know that winning game 1 in the finals isn't job done, in might be the only game you win - see 91. And need I remind you (I probably do) that just two rounds earlier the Rockets were down 3-1 to the Suns and yet they fought back to win the series. Not to mention the fact that they were down 2-1 against the Jazz (back when 1st round was best out of 5). But oooh, Nick Anderson makes that free-throw and Magic take a 1-0 lead and it would've been all over for the Rockets. Especially knowing that they lost the next 3 as well. Yeah, right.

And I don't know who can be blamed for their 93 loss to the Sonics, but Hakeem with his 23 point, 17 rebound, 9 assist, 2 steal and 3 block performance in game 7 of that series certainly can't.

Kareem's supporting cast in his 6 championships:

Oscar Robertson (hall of famer, one of the best players of all time), Magic Johnson (best point guard ever, hall of famer, top 5 or at least top 7 player of all time), James Worthy (7 time all-star, finals MVP, selected as one of the 50 greatest players of all time), numerous other great players like DPOY Michael Cooper and 20 ppg scorer Byron Scott

Magic's supporting cast in his 5 championships:

See Kareem's, subtract Oscar, add Kareem.

Bird's supporting cast in his 3 championships: Kevin McHale and Robert Parish (both hall of famers, both named top 50 players of all time) - always had them with him

Jordan's supporting cast in his 6 championships: Scottie Pippen (one of the best small forwards ever, arguably the best perimeter defender ever, multiple all-star, multiple all-NBA, hall of famer, named top 50 ever), Horace Grant (all-NBA defense), Dennis Rodman (the best rebounder ever, one of the best defenders ever)

Hakeem's supporting cast in 93:

0 all-stars, 0 all-NBA members, 0 all-defense, nada. What's even more amazing is that his entire 94 Rockets supporting cast have a measly 2 all-star appearances between them FOR THEIR CAREERS (Otis Thorpe in 92 and Sam Cassell in 04).

So you go it all wrong. The in a sense question shouldn't be "Why didn't he get more done?" but "How the hell did he get it done in 94?"

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Cake, I get what you're sayin about Dream didn't win more titles because of Bird/Magic/Jordan winnin most of them for a decade, but here's the thing though, Jordan didn't beat Dream.  Bird didn't beat Dream.  Magic only knocked the Dream off in the 80's. 

In the 90's, in his prime, they weren't even getting to the finals.  We all know who Mike faced each of those years, then suddenly the 2 years he was out, Dream came in and got his 2, and when Mike came back, Dream wasn't there already. 

So in a sense, the question still would remain, why didn't he get more done?  In 93 they were beat by the Sonics, whom the Suns took down.  In 96 they were beat by the Sonics again, who did go onto the finals.  So his window of truly doing anything title wise was basically 4 years.  (minus the 80's when he was a kid with Ralph Sampson)  In 92 they didn't even make the playoffs, and the unit he won the titles with was there for that 93 series with the Sonics. 


Maybe the Rockets just weren't managed properly during his time, but I truly only remember worrying about his team those 2 years they won when Mike was away.  And honestly if Nick Anderson makes a free throw, that could have chanced the entire way those Magic played the rest of that series, and we look at both Shaq, and Dream in a complete different light. 

Magic only beat Hakeem when his team was complete garbage, when he had a decent team in 86 it was Hakeem who won. Bird was the only one of the three to beat Hakeem when it counted in the 86 finals.

In 92 they didn't make the playoffs because Hakeem didn't play 12 games that year. The Rockets were 40-30 in the 70 games Hakeem played and 2-10 in the 12 games he missed which just shows how garbage the Rockets were without Hakeem. In the end the Lakers got the last playoff spot with 43 wins just one more than the Rockets and it is evident that the Rockets would've made the playoffs had Hakeem played the remaining games or even half.

I never get tired of hearing that "had Nick Anderson made that free-throw" comment. Always good for a laugh. You as a "Lakers" fan should know that winning game 1 in the finals isn't job done, in might be the only game you win - see 91. And need I remind you (I probably do) that just two rounds earlier the Rockets were down 3-1 to the Suns and yet they fought back to win the series. Not to mention the fact that they were down 2-1 against the Jazz (back when 1st round was best out of 5). But oooh, Nick Anderson makes that free-throw and Magic take a 1-0 lead and it would've been all over for the Rockets. Especially knowing that they lost the next 3 as well. Yeah, right.

And I don't know who can be blamed for their 93 loss to the Sonics, but Hakeem with his 23 point, 17 rebound, 9 assist, 2 steal and 3 block performance in game 7 of that series certainly can't.

Kareem's supporting cast in his 6 championships:

Oscar Robertson (hall of famer, one of the best players of all time), Magic Johnson (best point guard ever, hall of famer, top 5 or at least top 7 player of all time), James Worthy (7 time all-star, finals MVP, selected as one of the 50 greatest players of all time), numerous other great players like DPOY Michael Cooper and 20 ppg scorer Byron Scott

Magic's supporting cast in his 5 championships:

See Kareem's, subtract Oscar, add Kareem.

Bird's supporting cast in his 3 championships: Kevin McHale and Robert Parish (both hall of famers, both named top 50 players of all time) - always had them with him

Jordan's supporting cast in his 6 championships: Scottie Pippen (one of the best small forwards ever, arguably the best perimeter defender ever, multiple all-star, multiple all-NBA, hall of famer, named top 50 ever), Horace Grant (all-NBA defense), Dennis Rodman (the best rebounder ever, one of the best defenders ever)

Hakeem's supporting cast in 93:

0 all-stars, 0 all-NBA members, 0 all-defense, nada. What's even more amazing is that his entire 94 Rockets supporting cast have a measly 2 all-star appearances between them FOR THEIR CAREERS (Otis Thorpe in 92 and Sam Cassell in 04).

So you go it all wrong. The in a sense question shouldn't be "Why didn't he get more done?" but "How the hell did he get it done in 94?"

 

[dmbrhs]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

"How the hell did he get it done in 94?"

Sonics lost in the first round.

 

[dmbrhs]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

"How the hell did he get it done in 94?"

Sonics lost in the first round.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by CP1708

Cake, I get what you're sayin about Dream didn't win more titles because of Bird/Magic/Jordan winnin most of them for a decade, but here's the thing though, Jordan didn't beat Dream.  Bird didn't beat Dream.  Magic only knocked the Dream off in the 80's. 

In the 90's, in his prime, they weren't even getting to the finals.  We all know who Mike faced each of those years, then suddenly the 2 years he was out, Dream came in and got his 2, and when Mike came back, Dream wasn't there already. 

So in a sense, the question still would remain, why didn't he get more done?  In 93 they were beat by the Sonics, whom the Suns took down.  In 96 they were beat by the Sonics again, who did go onto the finals.  So his window of truly doing anything title wise was basically 4 years.  (minus the 80's when he was a kid with Ralph Sampson)  In 92 they didn't even make the playoffs, and the unit he won the titles with was there for that 93 series with the Sonics. 


Maybe the Rockets just weren't managed properly during his time, but I truly only remember worrying about his team those 2 years they won when Mike was away.  And honestly if Nick Anderson makes a free throw, that could have chanced the entire way those Magic played the rest of that series, and we look at both Shaq, and Dream in a complete different light. 

Magic only beat Hakeem when his team was complete garbage, when he had a decent team in 86 it was Hakeem who won. Bird was the only one of the three to beat Hakeem when it counted in the 86 finals.

In 92 they didn't make the playoffs because Hakeem didn't play 12 games that year. The Rockets were 40-30 in the 70 games Hakeem played and 2-10 in the 12 games he missed which just shows how garbage the Rockets were without Hakeem. In the end the Lakers got the last playoff spot with 43 wins just one more than the Rockets and it is evident that the Rockets would've made the playoffs had Hakeem played the remaining games or even half.

I never get tired of hearing that "had Nick Anderson made that free-throw" comment. Always good for a laugh. You as a "Lakers" fan should know that winning game 1 in the finals isn't job done, in might be the only game you win - see 91. And need I remind you (I probably do) that just two rounds earlier the Rockets were down 3-1 to the Suns and yet they fought back to win the series. Not to mention the fact that they were down 2-1 against the Jazz (back when 1st round was best out of 5). But oooh, Nick Anderson makes that free-throw and Magic take a 1-0 lead and it would've been all over for the Rockets. Especially knowing that they lost the next 3 as well. Yeah, right.

And I don't know who can be blamed for their 93 loss to the Sonics, but Hakeem with his 23 point, 17 rebound, 9 assist, 2 steal and 3 block performance in game 7 of that series certainly can't.

Kareem's supporting cast in his 6 championships:

Oscar Robertson (hall of famer, one of the best players of all time), Magic Johnson (best point guard ever, hall of famer, top 5 or at least top 7 player of all time), James Worthy (7 time all-star, finals MVP, selected as one of the 50 greatest players of all time), numerous other great players like DPOY Michael Cooper and 20 ppg scorer Byron Scott

Magic's supporting cast in his 5 championships:

See Kareem's, subtract Oscar, add Kareem.

Bird's supporting cast in his 3 championships: Kevin McHale and Robert Parish (both hall of famers, both named top 50 players of all time) - always had them with him

Jordan's supporting cast in his 6 championships: Scottie Pippen (one of the best small forwards ever, arguably the best perimeter defender ever, multiple all-star, multiple all-NBA, hall of famer, named top 50 ever), Horace Grant (all-NBA defense), Dennis Rodman (the best rebounder ever, one of the best defenders ever)

Hakeem's supporting cast in 93:

0 all-stars, 0 all-NBA members, 0 all-defense, nada. What's even more amazing is that his entire 94 Rockets supporting cast have a measly 2 all-star appearances between them FOR THEIR CAREERS (Otis Thorpe in 92 and Sam Cassell in 04).

So you go it all wrong. The in a sense question shouldn't be "Why didn't he get more done?" but "How the hell did he get it done in 94?"

You bring up a lot of good info, I'm good with all that. But you can slow down on the Nick Anderson point I made.  See, i didn't say positively that the Magic would have won, my point was, they were young kids, maybe, just quite possibly, had they won that game, it would have given them the confidence to play better.  Certainly the Champs were there and ready to fight and wouldn't have simply rolled over, but face it, they lost Nick after that game, and it shook them, plain and simple.  We'll never know what MIGHT have happened, all we know is what did, 4-0 Houston. 

Same can be said for Dream.  All that stuff you typed out is fine, but the point is, dude played a loooooong career, and what he did is what he did.  He had a shot at a title as a kid, he got two in his prime, and then he had a couple nice big names at the end.  All told, 2 titles is what he got.  Period, point blank, that's it.  Like I said already in this thread, either Shaq got those titles himself, (3 of them) or Kobe did work.  You claim that it was Shaq in previous arguments trying to discredit Kobe, are you now reversing your stance?

And I get what you're sayin about who everyone has had with them for titles, that's all well and good.  But Hakeem still doesn't match up wtih what Kareem did in his career.  He just doesn't.  That's not a knock on Dream in any way, but for over 20 years, from UCLA thru 88, Kareem did ENORMOUS work in the game of basketball.  

I like how you put the " " around Lakers fan when talking about me.  lol  That's funny stuff. 
  

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by CP1708

Cake, I get what you're sayin about Dream didn't win more titles because of Bird/Magic/Jordan winnin most of them for a decade, but here's the thing though, Jordan didn't beat Dream.  Bird didn't beat Dream.  Magic only knocked the Dream off in the 80's. 

In the 90's, in his prime, they weren't even getting to the finals.  We all know who Mike faced each of those years, then suddenly the 2 years he was out, Dream came in and got his 2, and when Mike came back, Dream wasn't there already. 

So in a sense, the question still would remain, why didn't he get more done?  In 93 they were beat by the Sonics, whom the Suns took down.  In 96 they were beat by the Sonics again, who did go onto the finals.  So his window of truly doing anything title wise was basically 4 years.  (minus the 80's when he was a kid with Ralph Sampson)  In 92 they didn't even make the playoffs, and the unit he won the titles with was there for that 93 series with the Sonics. 


Maybe the Rockets just weren't managed properly during his time, but I truly only remember worrying about his team those 2 years they won when Mike was away.  And honestly if Nick Anderson makes a free throw, that could have chanced the entire way those Magic played the rest of that series, and we look at both Shaq, and Dream in a complete different light. 

Magic only beat Hakeem when his team was complete garbage, when he had a decent team in 86 it was Hakeem who won. Bird was the only one of the three to beat Hakeem when it counted in the 86 finals.

In 92 they didn't make the playoffs because Hakeem didn't play 12 games that year. The Rockets were 40-30 in the 70 games Hakeem played and 2-10 in the 12 games he missed which just shows how garbage the Rockets were without Hakeem. In the end the Lakers got the last playoff spot with 43 wins just one more than the Rockets and it is evident that the Rockets would've made the playoffs had Hakeem played the remaining games or even half.

I never get tired of hearing that "had Nick Anderson made that free-throw" comment. Always good for a laugh. You as a "Lakers" fan should know that winning game 1 in the finals isn't job done, in might be the only game you win - see 91. And need I remind you (I probably do) that just two rounds earlier the Rockets were down 3-1 to the Suns and yet they fought back to win the series. Not to mention the fact that they were down 2-1 against the Jazz (back when 1st round was best out of 5). But oooh, Nick Anderson makes that free-throw and Magic take a 1-0 lead and it would've been all over for the Rockets. Especially knowing that they lost the next 3 as well. Yeah, right.

And I don't know who can be blamed for their 93 loss to the Sonics, but Hakeem with his 23 point, 17 rebound, 9 assist, 2 steal and 3 block performance in game 7 of that series certainly can't.

Kareem's supporting cast in his 6 championships:

Oscar Robertson (hall of famer, one of the best players of all time), Magic Johnson (best point guard ever, hall of famer, top 5 or at least top 7 player of all time), James Worthy (7 time all-star, finals MVP, selected as one of the 50 greatest players of all time), numerous other great players like DPOY Michael Cooper and 20 ppg scorer Byron Scott

Magic's supporting cast in his 5 championships:

See Kareem's, subtract Oscar, add Kareem.

Bird's supporting cast in his 3 championships: Kevin McHale and Robert Parish (both hall of famers, both named top 50 players of all time) - always had them with him

Jordan's supporting cast in his 6 championships: Scottie Pippen (one of the best small forwards ever, arguably the best perimeter defender ever, multiple all-star, multiple all-NBA, hall of famer, named top 50 ever), Horace Grant (all-NBA defense), Dennis Rodman (the best rebounder ever, one of the best defenders ever)

Hakeem's supporting cast in 93:

0 all-stars, 0 all-NBA members, 0 all-defense, nada. What's even more amazing is that his entire 94 Rockets supporting cast have a measly 2 all-star appearances between them FOR THEIR CAREERS (Otis Thorpe in 92 and Sam Cassell in 04).

So you go it all wrong. The in a sense question shouldn't be "Why didn't he get more done?" but "How the hell did he get it done in 94?"

You bring up a lot of good info, I'm good with all that. But you can slow down on the Nick Anderson point I made.  See, i didn't say positively that the Magic would have won, my point was, they were young kids, maybe, just quite possibly, had they won that game, it would have given them the confidence to play better.  Certainly the Champs were there and ready to fight and wouldn't have simply rolled over, but face it, they lost Nick after that game, and it shook them, plain and simple.  We'll never know what MIGHT have happened, all we know is what did, 4-0 Houston. 

Same can be said for Dream.  All that stuff you typed out is fine, but the point is, dude played a loooooong career, and what he did is what he did.  He had a shot at a title as a kid, he got two in his prime, and then he had a couple nice big names at the end.  All told, 2 titles is what he got.  Period, point blank, that's it.  Like I said already in this thread, either Shaq got those titles himself, (3 of them) or Kobe did work.  You claim that it was Shaq in previous arguments trying to discredit Kobe, are you now reversing your stance?

And I get what you're sayin about who everyone has had with them for titles, that's all well and good.  But Hakeem still doesn't match up wtih what Kareem did in his career.  He just doesn't.  That's not a knock on Dream in any way, but for over 20 years, from UCLA thru 88, Kareem did ENORMOUS work in the game of basketball.  

I like how you put the " " around Lakers fan when talking about me.  lol  That's funny stuff. 
  

 

[Humbled]

1. Kareem
2. Hakeem
3. Shaq

/thread.

 

[Humbled]

1. Kareem
2. Hakeem
3. Shaq

/thread.

 

[anygivensunday]

Originally Posted by WhatsLosinLike

1. Kareem
2. Hakeem
3. Shaq

/thread.

 

[anygivensunday]

Originally Posted by WhatsLosinLike

1. Kareem
2. Hakeem
3. Shaq

/thread.

 

[anygivensunday]

Originally Posted by WhatsLosinLike

1. Kareem
2. Hakeem
3. Shaq

/thread.

 

[anygivensunday]

Originally Posted by WhatsLosinLike

1. Kareem
2. Hakeem
3. Shaq

/thread.

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Xtapolapacetl wrote:

---

CP1708 wrote:

---

Cake, I get what you're sayin about Dream didn't win more titles because of Bird/Magic/Jordan winnin most of them for a decade, but here's the thing though, Jordan didn't beat Dream.  Bird didn't beat Dream.  Magic only knocked the Dream off in the 80's. 

In the 90's, in his prime, they weren't even getting to the finals.  We all know who Mike faced each of those years, then suddenly the 2 years he was out, Dream came in and got his 2, and when Mike came back, Dream wasn't there already. 

So in a sense, the question still would remain, why didn't he get more done?  In 93 they were beat by the Sonics, whom the Suns took down.  In 96 they were beat by the Sonics again, who did go onto the finals.  So his window of truly doing anything title wise was basically 4 years.  (minus the 80's when he was a kid with Ralph Sampson)  In 92 they didn't even make the playoffs, and the unit he won the titles with was there for that 93 series with the Sonics. 


Maybe the Rockets just weren't managed properly during his time, but I truly only remember worrying about his team those 2 years they won when Mike was away.  And honestly if Nick Anderson makes a free throw, that could have chanced the entire way those Magic played the rest of that series, and we look at both Shaq, and Dream in a complete different light. 

Magic only beat Hakeem when his team was complete garbage, when he had a decent team in 86 it was Hakeem who won. Bird was the only one of the three to beat Hakeem when it counted in the 86 finals.

In 92 they didn't make the playoffs because Hakeem didn't play 12 games that year. The Rockets were 40-30 in the 70 games Hakeem played and 2-10 in the 12 games he missed which just shows how garbage the Rockets were without Hakeem. In the end the Lakers got the last playoff spot with 43 wins just one more than the Rockets and it is evident that the Rockets would've made the playoffs had Hakeem played the remaining games or even half.

I never get tired of hearing that "had Nick Anderson made that free-throw" comment. Always good for a laugh. You as a "Lakers" fan should know that winning game 1 in the finals isn't job done, in might be the only game you win - see 91. And need I remind you (I probably do) that just two rounds earlier the Rockets were down 3-1 to the Suns and yet they fought back to win the series. Not to mention the fact that they were down 2-1 against the Jazz (back when 1st round was best out of 5). But oooh, Nick Anderson makes that free-throw and Magic take a 1-0 lead and it would've been all over for the Rockets. Especially knowing that they lost the next 3 as well. Yeah, right.

And I don't know who can be blamed for their 93 loss to the Sonics, but Hakeem with his 23 point, 17 rebound, 9 assist, 2 steal and 3 block performance in game 7 of that series certainly can't.

Kareem's supporting cast in his 6 championships:

Oscar Robertson (hall of famer, one of the best players of all time), Magic Johnson (best point guard ever, hall of famer, top 5 or at least top 7 player of all time), James Worthy (7 time all-star, finals MVP, selected as one of the 50 greatest players of all time), numerous other great players like DPOY Michael Cooper and 20 ppg scorer Byron Scott

Magic's supporting cast in his 5 championships:

See Kareem's, subtract Oscar, add Kareem.

Bird's supporting cast in his 3 championships: Kevin McHale and Robert Parish (both hall of famers, both named top 50 players of all time) - always had them with him

Jordan's supporting cast in his 6 championships: Scottie Pippen (one of the best small forwards ever, arguably the best perimeter defender ever, multiple all-star, multiple all-NBA, hall of famer, named top 50 ever), Horace Grant (all-NBA defense), Dennis Rodman (the best rebounder ever, one of the best defenders ever)

Hakeem's supporting cast in 93:

0 all-stars, 0 all-NBA members, 0 all-defense, nada. What's even more amazing is that his entire 94 Rockets supporting cast have a measly 2 all-star appearances between them FOR THEIR CAREERS (Otis Thorpe in 92 and Sam Cassell in 04).

So you go it all wrong. The in a sense question shouldn't be "Why didn't he get more done?" but "How the hell did he get it done in 94?"

You bring up a lot of good info, I'm good with all that. But you can slow down on the Nick Anderson point I made.  See, i didn't say positively that the Magic would have won, my point was, they were young kids, maybe, just quite possibly, had they won that game, it would have given them the confidence to play better.  Certainly the Champs were there and ready to fight and wouldn't have simply rolled over, but face it, they lost Nick after that game, and it shook them, plain and simple.  We'll never know what MIGHT have happened, all we know is what did, 4-0 Houston. 

Same can be said for Dream.  All that stuff you typed out is fine, but the point is, dude played a loooooong career, and what he did is what he did.  He had a shot at a title as a kid, he got two in his prime, and then he had a couple nice big names at the end.  All told, 2 titles is what he got.  Period, point blank, that's it.  Like I said already in this thread, either Shaq got those titles himself, (3 of them) or Kobe did work.  You claim that it was Shaq in previous arguments trying to discredit Kobe, are you now reversing your stance?

And I get what you're sayin about who everyone has had with them for titles, that's all well and good.  But Hakeem still doesn't match up wtih what Kareem did in his career.  He just doesn't.  That's not a knock on Dream in any way, but for over 20 years, from UCLA thru 88, Kareem did ENORMOUS work in the game of basketball.  

I like how you put the " " around Lakers fan when talking about me.  lol  That's funny stuff. 
  


Nobody is arguing that Kareem had a better career than Hakeem. If you simply stack up accomplishments, Kareem had the best career in history. But having a great career goes beyond a player being just merely good, no matter how good he is. He has to find himself at the right place at the right time. You seemed eager to point out how Hakeem missed the playoffs in 92, but look at your man Kareem with the Lakers before Magic came to the rescue: Missed playoffs, first round exits and sweeps. But unlike Kareem, Hakeem didn't get traded to a team that went on to draft a player of Magic's caliber. Hakeem proved very early in his career that he was a winner, leading a team in his second year over a phenomenal Laker team only to lose to what some consider as the greatest team of all time in 6 games. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that had Hakeem had more luck in his career, most of all Sampson not getting injured, he would have been a contender in the late 80s and the very early 90s as well.

Another thing I'm not trying to argue is that a 35+ year-old Hakeem was better than a 35+ year-old Kareem. But that doesn't change the fact that Kareem never had a peak that was equal to what Hakeem did in the 93 and 94 playoff runs, beating three of the very best players at his position in a 7 game series.

Where have I ever said that Shaq got the titles himself? All I've ever claimed was that Shaq was the undisputed number one on the three-peat teams, not the only one. Kobe was a legit #2 man, but that's as far as it went for those trying to convince themselves that Kobe was anything more than that. Anyways, the point is that Hakeem didn't have a legit #2 man like Shaq had in Kobe. Hell, he didn't even have a #2 man like Ewing had in John Starks.

And for being one of the numerous haters *****ing about how there will be an asterisk next to every championship LeBron wins because of a great supporting cast yet discredits Hakeem for winning a chip with the weakest supporting cast ever, you really shouldn't preach about stance reversal.

Originally Posted by dmbrhs

Xtapolapacetl wrote:

---

"How the hell did he get it done in 94?"

Sonics lost in the first round.




Yeah, the Sonics sure would've put a stain on Hakeem's legacy.. Had he not had the last laugh and beaten them in 1997 before they dismantled, one good thing that came out of that season for Hakeem. As it stands now, those 94 Sonics got humiliated by being rejected by Mutombo and dunked on by Robert Pack, a team that never went on to win another series.

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Xtapolapacetl wrote:

---

CP1708 wrote:

---

Cake, I get what you're sayin about Dream didn't win more titles because of Bird/Magic/Jordan winnin most of them for a decade, but here's the thing though, Jordan didn't beat Dream.  Bird didn't beat Dream.  Magic only knocked the Dream off in the 80's. 

In the 90's, in his prime, they weren't even getting to the finals.  We all know who Mike faced each of those years, then suddenly the 2 years he was out, Dream came in and got his 2, and when Mike came back, Dream wasn't there already. 

So in a sense, the question still would remain, why didn't he get more done?  In 93 they were beat by the Sonics, whom the Suns took down.  In 96 they were beat by the Sonics again, who did go onto the finals.  So his window of truly doing anything title wise was basically 4 years.  (minus the 80's when he was a kid with Ralph Sampson)  In 92 they didn't even make the playoffs, and the unit he won the titles with was there for that 93 series with the Sonics. 


Maybe the Rockets just weren't managed properly during his time, but I truly only remember worrying about his team those 2 years they won when Mike was away.  And honestly if Nick Anderson makes a free throw, that could have chanced the entire way those Magic played the rest of that series, and we look at both Shaq, and Dream in a complete different light. 

Magic only beat Hakeem when his team was complete garbage, when he had a decent team in 86 it was Hakeem who won. Bird was the only one of the three to beat Hakeem when it counted in the 86 finals.

In 92 they didn't make the playoffs because Hakeem didn't play 12 games that year. The Rockets were 40-30 in the 70 games Hakeem played and 2-10 in the 12 games he missed which just shows how garbage the Rockets were without Hakeem. In the end the Lakers got the last playoff spot with 43 wins just one more than the Rockets and it is evident that the Rockets would've made the playoffs had Hakeem played the remaining games or even half.

I never get tired of hearing that "had Nick Anderson made that free-throw" comment. Always good for a laugh. You as a "Lakers" fan should know that winning game 1 in the finals isn't job done, in might be the only game you win - see 91. And need I remind you (I probably do) that just two rounds earlier the Rockets were down 3-1 to the Suns and yet they fought back to win the series. Not to mention the fact that they were down 2-1 against the Jazz (back when 1st round was best out of 5). But oooh, Nick Anderson makes that free-throw and Magic take a 1-0 lead and it would've been all over for the Rockets. Especially knowing that they lost the next 3 as well. Yeah, right.

And I don't know who can be blamed for their 93 loss to the Sonics, but Hakeem with his 23 point, 17 rebound, 9 assist, 2 steal and 3 block performance in game 7 of that series certainly can't.

Kareem's supporting cast in his 6 championships:

Oscar Robertson (hall of famer, one of the best players of all time), Magic Johnson (best point guard ever, hall of famer, top 5 or at least top 7 player of all time), James Worthy (7 time all-star, finals MVP, selected as one of the 50 greatest players of all time), numerous other great players like DPOY Michael Cooper and 20 ppg scorer Byron Scott

Magic's supporting cast in his 5 championships:

See Kareem's, subtract Oscar, add Kareem.

Bird's supporting cast in his 3 championships: Kevin McHale and Robert Parish (both hall of famers, both named top 50 players of all time) - always had them with him

Jordan's supporting cast in his 6 championships: Scottie Pippen (one of the best small forwards ever, arguably the best perimeter defender ever, multiple all-star, multiple all-NBA, hall of famer, named top 50 ever), Horace Grant (all-NBA defense), Dennis Rodman (the best rebounder ever, one of the best defenders ever)

Hakeem's supporting cast in 93:

0 all-stars, 0 all-NBA members, 0 all-defense, nada. What's even more amazing is that his entire 94 Rockets supporting cast have a measly 2 all-star appearances between them FOR THEIR CAREERS (Otis Thorpe in 92 and Sam Cassell in 04).

So you go it all wrong. The in a sense question shouldn't be "Why didn't he get more done?" but "How the hell did he get it done in 94?"

You bring up a lot of good info, I'm good with all that. But you can slow down on the Nick Anderson point I made.  See, i didn't say positively that the Magic would have won, my point was, they were young kids, maybe, just quite possibly, had they won that game, it would have given them the confidence to play better.  Certainly the Champs were there and ready to fight and wouldn't have simply rolled over, but face it, they lost Nick after that game, and it shook them, plain and simple.  We'll never know what MIGHT have happened, all we know is what did, 4-0 Houston. 

Same can be said for Dream.  All that stuff you typed out is fine, but the point is, dude played a loooooong career, and what he did is what he did.  He had a shot at a title as a kid, he got two in his prime, and then he had a couple nice big names at the end.  All told, 2 titles is what he got.  Period, point blank, that's it.  Like I said already in this thread, either Shaq got those titles himself, (3 of them) or Kobe did work.  You claim that it was Shaq in previous arguments trying to discredit Kobe, are you now reversing your stance?

And I get what you're sayin about who everyone has had with them for titles, that's all well and good.  But Hakeem still doesn't match up wtih what Kareem did in his career.  He just doesn't.  That's not a knock on Dream in any way, but for over 20 years, from UCLA thru 88, Kareem did ENORMOUS work in the game of basketball.  

I like how you put the " " around Lakers fan when talking about me.  lol  That's funny stuff. 
  


Nobody is arguing that Kareem had a better career than Hakeem. If you simply stack up accomplishments, Kareem had the best career in history. But having a great career goes beyond a player being just merely good, no matter how good he is. He has to find himself at the right place at the right time. You seemed eager to point out how Hakeem missed the playoffs in 92, but look at your man Kareem with the Lakers before Magic came to the rescue: Missed playoffs, first round exits and sweeps. But unlike Kareem, Hakeem didn't get traded to a team that went on to draft a player of Magic's caliber. Hakeem proved very early in his career that he was a winner, leading a team in his second year over a phenomenal Laker team only to lose to what some consider as the greatest team of all time in 6 games. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that had Hakeem had more luck in his career, most of all Sampson not getting injured, he would have been a contender in the late 80s and the very early 90s as well.

Another thing I'm not trying to argue is that a 35+ year-old Hakeem was better than a 35+ year-old Kareem. But that doesn't change the fact that Kareem never had a peak that was equal to what Hakeem did in the 93 and 94 playoff runs, beating three of the very best players at his position in a 7 game series.

Where have I ever said that Shaq got the titles himself? All I've ever claimed was that Shaq was the undisputed number one on the three-peat teams, not the only one. Kobe was a legit #2 man, but that's as far as it went for those trying to convince themselves that Kobe was anything more than that. Anyways, the point is that Hakeem didn't have a legit #2 man like Shaq had in Kobe. Hell, he didn't even have a #2 man like Ewing had in John Starks.

And for being one of the numerous haters *****ing about how there will be an asterisk next to every championship LeBron wins because of a great supporting cast yet discredits Hakeem for winning a chip with the weakest supporting cast ever, you really shouldn't preach about stance reversal.

Originally Posted by dmbrhs

Xtapolapacetl wrote:

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"How the hell did he get it done in 94?"

Sonics lost in the first round.




Yeah, the Sonics sure would've put a stain on Hakeem's legacy.. Had he not had the last laugh and beaten them in 1997 before they dismantled, one good thing that came out of that season for Hakeem. As it stands now, those 94 Sonics got humiliated by being rejected by Mutombo and dunked on by Robert Pack, a team that never went on to win another series.

 

[dmbrhs]

I was being facetious. As I stated earlier, George Karl is a terrible playoff coach and those Sonics should have won a title or two in the mid-90s, but Karl always played the wrong matchups (the most famous being putting injured Nate friggin' McMillan on Jordan until it was too late in '96). They went the distance in all their major series wins, or got completely dominated from the start. They never took care of business out of the gate.

 

[dmbrhs]

I was being facetious. As I stated earlier, George Karl is a terrible playoff coach and those Sonics should have won a title or two in the mid-90s, but Karl always played the wrong matchups (the most famous being putting injured Nate friggin' McMillan on Jordan until it was too late in '96). They went the distance in all their major series wins, or got completely dominated from the start. They never took care of business out of the gate.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

There is this guy named Bill Russel, the most dominating defensive force in the history of the game people seem to completely ignore him.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

There is this guy named Bill Russel, the most dominating defensive force in the history of the game people seem to completely ignore him.

 

[mco85]

How can anyone say Hakeem was better than Shaq. The Dream was great, no doubt, but don't let his flashiness fool. He was never anywhere near as dominant as Shaq was during his prime. I think people forget how good Shaq was during those Laker championship years. Hakeem was a career 51% shooter his best year was his rookie year when he shot close to 54%, Those would be career lows for shaq even counting these last few bad years. If you got to pick between Shaq and Hakeem for one season in their Prime it would be Shaq by a mile, he was far more dominant

 

[mco85]

How can anyone say Hakeem was better than Shaq. The Dream was great, no doubt, but don't let his flashiness fool. He was never anywhere near as dominant as Shaq was during his prime. I think people forget how good Shaq was during those Laker championship years. Hakeem was a career 51% shooter his best year was his rookie year when he shot close to 54%, Those would be career lows for shaq even counting these last few bad years. If you got to pick between Shaq and Hakeem for one season in their Prime it would be Shaq by a mile, he was far more dominant

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by mco85

How can anyone say Hakeem was better than Shaq. The Dream was great, no doubt, but don't let his flashiness fool. He was never anywhere near as dominant as Shaq was during his prime. I think people forget how good Shaq was during those Laker championship years. Hakeem was a career 51% shooter his best year was his rookie year when he shot close to 54%, Those would be career lows for shaq even counting these last few bad years. If you got to pick between Shaq and Hakeem for one season in their Prime it would be Shaq by a mile, he was far more dominant

I think people forget how crappy the rest of the centers were during those Laker championship years.

Unlike shooting 53% from the line, shooting 51% from the field isn't bad, and it certainly isn't horrible like 53% from the line. BTW Hakeem's playoffs FG% is 53% and Shaq's is 56%. Ooh, what a difference.

I like how people think that saying Shaq was more dominant somehow means he was better.

Hakeem's skills > Shaq's dominance
Hakeem's dominance on the offensive end > Shaq's dominance on the defensive end

When it comes down to it, there are two factors that don't make Shaq better than Hakeem. One is a major weakness - his free-throw shooting. The reason why he couldn't be relied on in the clutch, the reason why coaches began to see hack-a-Shaq as a legit strategy. The other one is at times lazy defense. He could be a very good defender at times (though never as good as Hakeem), but on an average Shaq day, his defense was not great. Even in his glory days he only made 3 all-defense second teams, the only ones of his career. Hakeem on the other hand made 5 all-defensive 1st teams and 4 all-defensive 2nd teams. Overall, Hakeem never had what were seen as weaknesses about his game like Shaq.