xtapolapacetl
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- Aug 8, 2006
Now we're talkin.Originally Posted by CP1708
Xtapolapacetl wrote:
Don't give me that numbers crap or else I'll start asking the obvious. If you want to say that Hakeem is inferior to other players simply because he won a smaller quantity of rings throughout his career, then I have to ask the obvious whenever someone starts using this dumb logic. Is Bill Wennington > Hakeem then? Is Mark Madsen = Hakeem? Is Robert Horry > MJ? Is Darko Milicic > Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and Patrick Ewing combined? You know damn well that it's not simply the amount of rings you win that measure greatness, but how, where and when you win them. Larry Bird has 3 rings. A solid amount, but not phenomenally high on a list of players with most rings. Yet everyone knows that even though someone who is a GOAT candidate like Bird could've won more than 3 rings, the fact that he played his entire career next to Magic Johnson and the rest of the great players who were on the 80s Lakers teams gives him somewhat of a free pass for not winning more rings. And this is where you're being unreasonable regarding Hakeem. It's simply unreasonable and flat out mean to have demanded from Hakeem to win more rings prior to 94, like how you mentioned. The teams he played on were flat out NOT championship material. His supporting cast in 1994 was not championship material yet he won anyway and beat the teams he faced in the playoffs, even though all four of them were stronger on paper. The only two years in Hakeem's career where it is reasonable to say that he perhaps should have won are 1996 and 1997. And him winning a championship that he shouldn't have won in 1994 pretty much makes up for one of those arguably wasted years. So basically Hakeem got almost as much as he could get out of his NBA career CONSIDERING the hand he was dealt: Sampsons injury early on, being surrounded by nothing but role players later on, playing in an era that was the best in NBA history when it came to the quality of players playing Hakeem's position, etc. And BTW, mentioning that 1999 lockout season and implying that a 36 year-old Hakeem, a 36 year-old Barkley and a 33-year old Pip who played below everyone's expectations that year should've won the chip is ridiculous.
First, I wasn't DEMANDING Hakeem win more or anything, I was asking. And since you brought up a good point about Bird, you mention him playing at the same time as Magic and the like. Well, when did Hakeem win? That's right, when MJ was gone. I know that sucks, and is unfair, but facts are facts. Dream won his two when Mike was missing curveballs. It's not fair, it sucks, I wish like hell we could have seen them square off in 96 or something, but it didn't happen.
You can complain all you want about how fair it is with titles, face it, Karl Malone is not in the top 10 all time, why? You know why. Dan Marino isn't the best QB all time why? You know that answer too. They can be GREAT, ELITE, ALL TIME players. But they can never be "ONE OF THEM" Don't be foolish with Darko Milicic and Mark Madsen and all that, it is beyond obvious that they do not belong. But when you measure greatness, fair or unfair, when all the numbers are poured over, and all the games are finished, something comes down as a tie breaker, what is it gonna be? What is that all these guys play for?
Rings.
I've said it several times now, Dream was a bad man. I have ZERO issue with where he fits in all time, he belongs whereever the majority wants to put him. I'm cool with him either way. But when you are discussing something, and rings come up, the question I asked is indeed a fair one.
You have brought up Shaq vs garbage centers a few times. Great point. Reminds me of Simmons book when he talks about Malone and Stockton. They play thru their 20's, never get to a finals. (Magic in their way) Magic retires, they are now in their early 30's, still no finals. Drexler, Bark, then Hakeem, and now it's their late 30's, they make it to back to back finals. Were they better players in their late 30's, or did the level of comp simply fall off a little? We all know the answer.
So if you want to say, Shaq's 4 < Hakeem's 2 because Dream faced tougher competition, and did it with less talent around him then Shaq, then guess what? That is a fair argument to make. Very reasonable. But when that happens, you must be prepared for someone else to say.......well, yes, I agree sir, but what if Mike hadn't left those 2 years?
What if.........
There are multiple angles to many many many sports arguments. I am not so dumb and narrowminded to simply ask a question and expect it to mean one and only one thing. There can be many answers. You felt the need to throw tons of sentences in my mouth for me, when that simply was not the case. Maybe it's my fault for not making my point clearer before, if so, my bad on that, but I assure you, Dream is held in high regard by CP1708. Always has been, always will be. But that doesn't mean that I can't ask tough questions, or make points that I would like light to be shed on. All in all, good discussion in here. This is what makes NT good place to be sometimes, when people can hammer out arguments from 15 years ago.
Oh, you were asking. Well, there's a simple answer for you why Hakeem didn't win prior to 94 and after 97: His supporting cast simply wasn't good enough. He won when Jordan left, but those were the only years he went to the finals where he possibly could've met Jordan, other than 86. But let's not get into the detailed discussion about how early 90s Rockets were owning early 90s Bulls whenever they met in the regular season that I already explained so many times on this forum, and how it's probably good for Jordan's legacy that he chose those two exact years to be away from basketball. It certainly isn't bad as this way at least it remains unknown.
If Darko Milicic and Mark Madsen don't suit you, then how about Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker and Paul Pierce... Are they greater than Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and Patrick Ewing?
FYI, Hakeem was one of beat Malone and Stockton both championship playoff runs in 94 and 95. And Stockton wasn't as good in his 30s, but Karl Malone's peak was the 96-97 season.