Is Kobe is still exciting to watch?

[CP1708]

You guys have got to be kidding me with this garbage. 

Great, wonderful, extra stats, that's terrific, I am sure they serve some purpose, but NONE of that crap means a God damn thing. 

If a guy on a team is deemed "worthy" enough by his teammates, coaches to take the final shot, in a do or die situation, and the other team knows it, the crowd knows it, the announcers know it, and still, with all that "pressure" he can go out and take, and make a given shot, even if it's one damn time in his life, then that is a clutch moment. 

I don't care how many stupid lame @#$ stats you come up with, if a guy does that 10 times, that's good.  And if he does it 25 times, now we're talking.  Of course, he is going to miss some.  Of course, there is going to be failures.  If Mike takes 100 shots at the buzzer, and only makes 25, he's still clutch.  Clutch isn't a percentage or even any tangible thing you can hold in your hands.  It's the feeling of a team being given to one guy, to finish the game/series.  Mike asks for the shot.  Even if he fails, he'll still ask for it again. 

Someone show me that Vince Carter gif when he about to shoot them late free throws.  Look at his eyes.  THAT is a man that is not clutch, I don't care about his @#$%^& percentages, that is a guy that is afraid of the moment, plain and simple.  You don't need advanced calculus to see with your own eyes what that guy is all about.  Mike, is the opposite of Vince.  His eyes, are focused and he is ready to take the shot.  Hit or miss, don't matter, he has the guts to do it. 

You guys are freaking ridiculous trying to analyze every single attempt by breaking it down level after level.  Some things in life simply come down to heart, will and desire.  Anybody with half a brain will tell you that if a building is burning, you don't go in there.  But firemen do it every single day because of their heart, and dedication.  You can't come up with some stupid percentage to quantify it.  This is the same thing.  (though of course, less important then saving a life)  You think other teams live in fear of a final shot by Luke Walton?  The whole crowd murmurs in anticipation of a final shot by Jud Buecheler?  @#$% no.  But those other teams, those fans, those crowds and announcers, they sure get up out their seats when Mike walks on the court with 5 seconds left.  People sure got a kick out of watching Kobe go out there make or miss in those games. 

That's why those guys are who they are.  For those moments, they take the franchise on their back, and they have the guts to take that shot.  Their a helluva alot of other guys that don't want no part of that final shot. 

Ya'll remember when Kobe was 18 shooting airballs?  Why he have to take those shots?  Why coach call the shots for an 18 year old rookie?  Know why?  Nobody else on that team wanted the ball.  Coach looked at em all, and they all sat there.  The kid stepped up, I'll take the shots, I'll take em.  And he missed.  Miserably.  3 times even.  Never even touched the rim. 
2 years later, bigger stage, NBA finals, same kid, 4 buckets STRAIGHT, in OT.  That's how a guy gets a rep.  Make mistakes, learn, come back, and succeed.  Nobody ever gonna be perfect, people that get that, do well. 

These clowns that go 5 for 8 in "clutch" moments and have advanced stat people all giddy and @#$% should be asking why they only get the ball 8 times for these "clutch" shots. 


I can't beleive NT these days.  People tryna sell me that MJ isn't clutch cuz they can't find it on a calculator. 

  @#$%^& kiddin me right here. 

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Nobody is saying MJ wasn't clutch, we are just questioning if the whole idea of clutch is even an actual idea. If we FULLY subscribed to the idea of clutch, then MJ is clutch.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Nobody is saying MJ wasn't clutch, we are just questioning if the whole idea of clutch is even an actual idea. If we FULLY subscribed to the idea of clutch, then MJ is clutch.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Nobody is saying MJ wasn't clutch, we are just questioning if the whole idea of clutch is even an actual idea. If we FULLY subscribed to the idea of clutch, then MJ is clutch.

Hope that makes sense.

No, it doesn't.  Who gives a @#$% about actual ideas, this ain't Inception.  Not every detail in life has to have a number placed on it. 

First I'm told that rings don't matter
Now I'm told clutch don't matter, or maybe don't even exist.....

And you guys are "basketball" fans? 

  

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Nobody is saying MJ wasn't clutch, we are just questioning if the whole idea of clutch is even an actual idea. If we FULLY subscribed to the idea of clutch, then MJ is clutch.

Hope that makes sense.

No, it doesn't.  Who gives a @#$% about actual ideas, this ain't Inception.  Not every detail in life has to have a number placed on it. 

First I'm told that rings don't matter
Now I'm told clutch don't matter, or maybe don't even exist.....

And you guys are "basketball" fans? 

  

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Nobody ever said clutch doesn't MATTER. We are just trying to explain to you that the concept of it isn't fool proof. Jordan performs well during the game and at the end of the game. Nobody is denying that at all. Whether you call it clutch or not, we can all agree that he performs.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Nobody ever said clutch doesn't MATTER. We are just trying to explain to you that the concept of it isn't fool proof. Jordan performs well during the game and at the end of the game. Nobody is denying that at all. Whether you call it clutch or not, we can all agree that he performs.

 

[lukethejediknight]

No offense CP, but I still think you don't understand the distinction of clutch I made in my post and you're putting alot of words in my mouth.

Say MJ (or Kobe, or whomever you prefer) makes 25 "clutch shots" out of 100. If I subscribed to the same idea of of "clutch ability" that people think about (that is, the ability to "improve" one's shooting in these situations) then that isn't clutch. That's volume shooting. Even heard of the saying "Even the sun shines on a dog's #%+ every once in awhile"? But you of course let him take the shot next time, because you're using the ENTIRE 17 year career of MJ's great shooting from the field to determine that he should take that shot. Like I said, he's taken ten of thousands of shots; how you shoot with 100 shots compared to tens of thousands is LAUGHABLE. It's called sample size, and small ones like 100 shots isn't useful to make a conclusion on a player's ability to shoot the ball. MJ could very well just have been unlucky to shoot a lower percentage than he usually does (this is based on some assumptions of course but I'm simply keeping things simple here for brevity's sake).

It's for this same reason that I wouldn't let "Average Joe" shoot the ball over MJ if they're on the same team if he say made, 10 clutch shots out of 20 if he usually shoots 40% from the field for his career. He might be converting his "clutch shots" better than MJ, but is it because he has some kind of better "ability" than MJ to shoot shots in those situations? No. What I DO know though, is that Joe isn't someone to convert his tens of thousands of shots at that clip anyway, and I would be foolish to let him have the ball instead if the GOAT when you want soneone to score a basket.Like I said, MJ making these shots has nothing to do with being "clutch" at all. He plays and performs the same way he always does - we just want to assign some extra psychological significance to him making shots.

 

[lukethejediknight]

No offense CP, but I still think you don't understand the distinction of clutch I made in my post and you're putting alot of words in my mouth.

Say MJ (or Kobe, or whomever you prefer) makes 25 "clutch shots" out of 100. If I subscribed to the same idea of of "clutch ability" that people think about (that is, the ability to "improve" one's shooting in these situations) then that isn't clutch. That's volume shooting. Even heard of the saying "Even the sun shines on a dog's #%+ every once in awhile"? But you of course let him take the shot next time, because you're using the ENTIRE 17 year career of MJ's great shooting from the field to determine that he should take that shot. Like I said, he's taken ten of thousands of shots; how you shoot with 100 shots compared to tens of thousands is LAUGHABLE. It's called sample size, and small ones like 100 shots isn't useful to make a conclusion on a player's ability to shoot the ball. MJ could very well just have been unlucky to shoot a lower percentage than he usually does (this is based on some assumptions of course but I'm simply keeping things simple here for brevity's sake).

It's for this same reason that I wouldn't let "Average Joe" shoot the ball over MJ if they're on the same team if he say made, 10 clutch shots out of 20 if he usually shoots 40% from the field for his career. He might be converting his "clutch shots" better than MJ, but is it because he has some kind of better "ability" than MJ to shoot shots in those situations? No. What I DO know though, is that Joe isn't someone to convert his tens of thousands of shots at that clip anyway, and I would be foolish to let him have the ball instead if the GOAT when you want soneone to score a basket.Like I said, MJ making these shots has nothing to do with being "clutch" at all. He plays and performs the same way he always does - we just want to assign some extra psychological significance to him making shots.

 

[CP1708]

^
Ok, agreed.  So why the need for the distinction?  We know for a fact that MJ has taken a billion shots, regardless make or miss, and is trained for those moments.  Being clutch is not an improvement of ones shooting in late moments, it's merely being able to take and make those shots. 

Robert Horry is a pretty good example.  Not a deadly shooter by any means, and nobody really cares what his % is with 1 on the game clock, but if he has the ball and it goes up, I guarantee you that thousands of fans of the opposing teams hold their breath. 

The man is clutch, don't matter what the numbers say.  Clutch does not have to mean perfect, or better then first quarter shooting, etc, it merely means he's done it before, over and over and over.  Proven, tested, what have you. 

 

[CP1708]

^
Ok, agreed.  So why the need for the distinction?  We know for a fact that MJ has taken a billion shots, regardless make or miss, and is trained for those moments.  Being clutch is not an improvement of ones shooting in late moments, it's merely being able to take and make those shots. 

Robert Horry is a pretty good example.  Not a deadly shooter by any means, and nobody really cares what his % is with 1 on the game clock, but if he has the ball and it goes up, I guarantee you that thousands of fans of the opposing teams hold their breath. 

The man is clutch, don't matter what the numbers say.  Clutch does not have to mean perfect, or better then first quarter shooting, etc, it merely means he's done it before, over and over and over.  Proven, tested, what have you. 

 

[westcoastsfinest]

i hate that mikes name is always involved in a kobe thread and vice versa.

 

[westcoastsfinest]

i hate that mikes name is always involved in a kobe thread and vice versa.

 

[got shoes]

Originally Posted by westcoastsfinest

i hate that mikes name is always involved in a kobe thread and vice versa.

it happens. Same with any other Player A thread. Someone has to compare or mention Player ? to  Player ?

 

[got shoes]

Originally Posted by westcoastsfinest

i hate that mikes name is always involved in a kobe thread and vice versa.

it happens. Same with any other Player A thread. Someone has to compare or mention Player ? to  Player ?

 

[lukethejediknight]

"Robert Horry is a pretty good example.  Not a deadly shooter by any means, and nobody really cares what his % is with 1 on the game clock, but if he has the ball and it goes up, I guarantee you that thousands of fans of the opposing teams hold their breath."

Well obviously, and once again it's because no one remembers the misses, and if you shoot enough times to hit the "jackpot" those images tend stay in your mind.

But is it BECAUSE he had some hidden ability to "save" his best shooting for these moments? The problem is that some people think that this actually the case. Would you rather him shoot a basketball over Kobe? Would you rather have Dwight Howard shoot a free-throw in close games over Karl Malone, who infamously missed a FT in a close game in the 1997 Finals?

The psychology of the clutch seems to take precedent over ACTUAL performance. This is what I'm referring to.

 

[lukethejediknight]

"Robert Horry is a pretty good example.  Not a deadly shooter by any means, and nobody really cares what his % is with 1 on the game clock, but if he has the ball and it goes up, I guarantee you that thousands of fans of the opposing teams hold their breath."

Well obviously, and once again it's because no one remembers the misses, and if you shoot enough times to hit the "jackpot" those images tend stay in your mind.

But is it BECAUSE he had some hidden ability to "save" his best shooting for these moments? The problem is that some people think that this actually the case. Would you rather him shoot a basketball over Kobe? Would you rather have Dwight Howard shoot a free-throw in close games over Karl Malone, who infamously missed a FT in a close game in the 1997 Finals?

The psychology of the clutch seems to take precedent over ACTUAL performance. This is what I'm referring to.

 

[westcoastsfinest]

Originally Posted by got shoes

Originally Posted by westcoastsfinest

i hate that mikes name is always involved in a kobe thread and vice versa.

it happens. Same with any other Player A thread. Someone has to compare or mention Player ? to  Player ?

true.

are you going to the game tomorrow?

  

 

[westcoastsfinest]

Originally Posted by got shoes

Originally Posted by westcoastsfinest

i hate that mikes name is always involved in a kobe thread and vice versa.

it happens. Same with any other Player A thread. Someone has to compare or mention Player ? to  Player ?

true.

are you going to the game tomorrow?

  

 

[CP1708]

Not sure who you mean when you keep referring to "some people think"  Who cares?  And people that KNOW the game, remember Horry missing the shot in 03 that ended the 3 peat.  I remember it well man. 

  But that shot doesn't suddenly take him out of the clutch category. 

Ron Artest his 2 huge shots last year, one in the WCF, one in game 7, I don't go around callin him clutch all day.  Now if he does that again, and again, and again, etc........then yeah, he's makin a name for himself.  It's the moment that matters, not the shooting accuracy or any of that. 

D Fish sucks tremendous balls all year long, tell him it's the playoffs, guess what?  Big shot, after big shot, after big shot.  I don't care WHY he does it, or how, he just DOES it.  That's all that matters. 

I don't care what "some people think" he's the clutchest of all time, or he shoots a billion percent in the final 4 seconds of games, he's merely in a group, of the best clutch guys of all time.  Reggie, Larry, Mike, Billups, Horry, Kobe, Fish and others all belong there.  They all have not one, or two, or even three, but MULTIPLE moments/shots that affect series/titles/legacies. 

Billups is a guy that built his rep on those shots, but lately, they've stopped falling.  Don't need a percentage for that, we will remember the misses piling up and make the distinction.  He WAS clutch, but later in his career, he wasn't as much.  It's not that difficult.  We shouldn't need formulas to figure that out with our own eyes, or brains. 

 

[CP1708]

Not sure who you mean when you keep referring to "some people think"  Who cares?  And people that KNOW the game, remember Horry missing the shot in 03 that ended the 3 peat.  I remember it well man. 

  But that shot doesn't suddenly take him out of the clutch category. 

Ron Artest his 2 huge shots last year, one in the WCF, one in game 7, I don't go around callin him clutch all day.  Now if he does that again, and again, and again, etc........then yeah, he's makin a name for himself.  It's the moment that matters, not the shooting accuracy or any of that. 

D Fish sucks tremendous balls all year long, tell him it's the playoffs, guess what?  Big shot, after big shot, after big shot.  I don't care WHY he does it, or how, he just DOES it.  That's all that matters. 

I don't care what "some people think" he's the clutchest of all time, or he shoots a billion percent in the final 4 seconds of games, he's merely in a group, of the best clutch guys of all time.  Reggie, Larry, Mike, Billups, Horry, Kobe, Fish and others all belong there.  They all have not one, or two, or even three, but MULTIPLE moments/shots that affect series/titles/legacies. 

Billups is a guy that built his rep on those shots, but lately, they've stopped falling.  Don't need a percentage for that, we will remember the misses piling up and make the distinction.  He WAS clutch, but later in his career, he wasn't as much.  It's not that difficult.  We shouldn't need formulas to figure that out with our own eyes, or brains. 

 

[got shoes]

Originally Posted by westcoastsfinest

Originally Posted by got shoes

Originally Posted by westcoastsfinest

i hate that mikes name is always involved in a kobe thread and vice versa.

it happens. Same with any other Player A thread. Someone has to compare or mention Player ? to  Player ?

true.

are you going to the game tommorrow?

  

i wish. Laker tickets are too crazy right now and i like to sit in the front. I'm a Warriors fan also, but a die hard LA fan and its gets hostile in Oracle

 Should be a good game though

 

[got shoes]

Originally Posted by westcoastsfinest

Originally Posted by got shoes

Originally Posted by westcoastsfinest

i hate that mikes name is always involved in a kobe thread and vice versa.

it happens. Same with any other Player A thread. Someone has to compare or mention Player ? to  Player ?

true.

are you going to the game tommorrow?

  

i wish. Laker tickets are too crazy right now and i like to sit in the front. I'm a Warriors fan also, but a die hard LA fan and its gets hostile in Oracle

 Should be a good game though

 

[westcoastsfinest]

Originally Posted by got shoes

Originally Posted by westcoastsfinest

Originally Posted by got shoes

Originally Posted by westcoastsfinest

i hate that mikes name is always involved in a kobe thread and vice versa.

it happens. Same with any other Player A thread. Someone has to compare or mention Player ? to  Player ?

true.

are you going to the game tommorrow?

  

i wish. Laker tickets are too crazy right now and i like to sit in the front. I'm a Warriors fan also, but a die hard LA fan and its gets hostile in Oracle

 Should be a good game though

i usually go when they come to town. its fairly 40/60 or sometimes 50/50 especially during the 3peat era. but the warrior fans do get up for their team its incredible. the most hostile the arena has been is probably in december 2007, fresh off the we believe season. they gave out yellow we're back shirts. playoff type of atmosphere. stinkin' baron's kiss of death.

 

[westcoastsfinest]

Originally Posted by got shoes

Originally Posted by westcoastsfinest

Originally Posted by got shoes

Originally Posted by westcoastsfinest

i hate that mikes name is always involved in a kobe thread and vice versa.

it happens. Same with any other Player A thread. Someone has to compare or mention Player ? to  Player ?

true.

are you going to the game tommorrow?

  

i wish. Laker tickets are too crazy right now and i like to sit in the front. I'm a Warriors fan also, but a die hard LA fan and its gets hostile in Oracle

 Should be a good game though

i usually go when they come to town. its fairly 40/60 or sometimes 50/50 especially during the 3peat era. but the warrior fans do get up for their team its incredible. the most hostile the arena has been is probably in december 2007, fresh off the we believe season. they gave out yellow we're back shirts. playoff type of atmosphere. stinkin' baron's kiss of death.