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please don't start thisOriginally Posted by KenJi714
Better than Jordan
Is Kobe is still exciting to watch?
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by letitshine24,
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please don't start thisOriginally Posted by KenJi714
Better than Jordan
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I am a HUGE Kobe fan, and was always a big hater on the Jordan dynasty and I still can't quite say that YET.Originally Posted by jmause3
please don't start thisOriginally Posted by KenJi714
Better than Jordan
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I am a HUGE Kobe fan, and was always a big hater on the Jordan dynasty and I still can't quite say that YET.Originally Posted by jmause3
please don't start thisOriginally Posted by KenJi714
Better than Jordan
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Of course i didn't try to start that lame usual Kobe vs Jordan war but everyone have their own opinion. I just think Kobe is a better player and i like his game better than Jordan. Jordan is a better athlete and more physically gifted just like Lebron. Kobe is a better shooter and better footwork.
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Of course i didn't try to start that lame usual Kobe vs Jordan war but everyone have their own opinion. I just think Kobe is a better player and i like his game better than Jordan. Jordan is a better athlete and more physically gifted just like Lebron. Kobe is a better shooter and better footwork.
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Shooting is debatable. There is no way that Kobe's footwork is better than Jordan's though. Jordan was unstoppable in the low post, mostly thanks to his amazing footwork. Kobe isn't at that level.
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Shooting is debatable. There is no way that Kobe's footwork is better than Jordan's though. Jordan was unstoppable in the low post, mostly thanks to his amazing footwork. Kobe isn't at that level.
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And another Kobe Vs. Jordan thread has started again
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And another Kobe Vs. Jordan thread has started again
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You know it was heading there sooner or later
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You know it was heading there sooner or later
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Originally Posted by jmause3
please don't start thisOriginally Posted by KenJi714
Better than Jordan
--Uh oh. Here comes the lock..
--What some people dont realize is they are already subconciously holding Kobe in high regard by putting his name in the same sentence as Jordan in the manner they put it in.
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Originally Posted by jmause3
please don't start thisOriginally Posted by KenJi714
Better than Jordan
--Uh oh. Here comes the lock..
--What some people dont realize is they are already subconciously holding Kobe in high regard by putting his name in the same sentence as Jordan in the manner they put it in.
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Well for one, in-depth studies about this has already shown this isn't the case. A player might create shots at a higher rate than his usually does in the clutch (as a result of being the team's best player, and also as a residual effect of defenses tightening up in these situations), but his efficiency doesn't improve or stay constant, which would indicate an actual improvement in HIS performance.
Also, thanks for your insight. I just want to make it clear once again that I do not deny the psychological implications of pressure; just the perception that any single result or statistical showing of "clutchness" or "unclutchness" (based on a minuscule sample size) means that a player is clutch or or unlutch. Even if a player is nervous is any single situation or even a series (or, on the flip side, thinks he's the next coming of Michael Jordan and can't miss in the clutch) performance tends to return to how the player would usually perform during any other situation. Kobe Bryant had a nine-year span where he shot well-below in league average in "game-winning shot situations" (that's subpar even taking shot-creation against tight defenses into account); last season he was 7 of 12. Now, I'm sure that Lakers fans would look at that nine-year figure and say "It doesn't mean he shouldn't get the ball or that he's a choke artist that can't shots", and they would be absolutely right. He had one good season of "clutch play" and he's now "the guy you would give the ball to over anyone else" in those situations?
Like I said, you can't have it both ways. I would gladly give Kobe the ball if I need a basket, but people need to to be careful when asking the reasons WHY this is the case.
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Well for one, in-depth studies about this has already shown this isn't the case. A player might create shots at a higher rate than his usually does in the clutch (as a result of being the team's best player, and also as a residual effect of defenses tightening up in these situations), but his efficiency doesn't improve or stay constant, which would indicate an actual improvement in HIS performance.
Also, thanks for your insight. I just want to make it clear once again that I do not deny the psychological implications of pressure; just the perception that any single result or statistical showing of "clutchness" or "unclutchness" (based on a minuscule sample size) means that a player is clutch or or unlutch. Even if a player is nervous is any single situation or even a series (or, on the flip side, thinks he's the next coming of Michael Jordan and can't miss in the clutch) performance tends to return to how the player would usually perform during any other situation. Kobe Bryant had a nine-year span where he shot well-below in league average in "game-winning shot situations" (that's subpar even taking shot-creation against tight defenses into account); last season he was 7 of 12. Now, I'm sure that Lakers fans would look at that nine-year figure and say "It doesn't mean he shouldn't get the ball or that he's a choke artist that can't shots", and they would be absolutely right. He had one good season of "clutch play" and he's now "the guy you would give the ball to over anyone else" in those situations?
Like I said, you can't have it both ways. I would gladly give Kobe the ball if I need a basket, but people need to to be careful when asking the reasons WHY this is the case.
That's been said about him for almost a decade though........
Clutch isn't something earned in a year or a series, it's YEARS. Horry hits big shots for YEARS. Kobe has hit big shots/game winners FOR YEARS.
Yes, you can say what you want about the %'s and dropoffs or whatever, but people were calling him the closer years ago. Colin Cowherd has said forever that Phil's MO was play it close for 44 minutes, and then give the ball to MJ and Kobe. Dude was sayin that when he was a local homer radio guy here in Portland.
So let's not act like this suddenly happened in the last 12 months or something.
That's been said about him for almost a decade though........
Clutch isn't something earned in a year or a series, it's YEARS. Horry hits big shots for YEARS. Kobe has hit big shots/game winners FOR YEARS.
Yes, you can say what you want about the %'s and dropoffs or whatever, but people were calling him the closer years ago. Colin Cowherd has said forever that Phil's MO was play it close for 44 minutes, and then give the ball to MJ and Kobe. Dude was sayin that when he was a local homer radio guy here in Portland.
So let's not act like this suddenly happened in the last 12 months or something.
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Larger sample = more evidence to draw from = less "fluky" results. Simple as that. Even if you want to regard the better pitching in the postseason, which was a great point you brought up.
The "postseason choke artist" A-Rod once started his postseason career as a Yankee 1 for something through the 2004 playoffs and wasn't getting on base. Now, he has a higher OPS, more runs scored, more RBI, and more stolen bases (7 for 9) since 2004 than...Derek Jeter. He even outproduced him in the 2009 World Series.
Clearly the dude needs to be given a little more credit for his play, even if he's among the biggest prima donnas in sports.
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Larger sample = more evidence to draw from = less "fluky" results. Simple as that. Even if you want to regard the better pitching in the postseason, which was a great point you brought up.
The "postseason choke artist" A-Rod once started his postseason career as a Yankee 1 for something through the 2004 playoffs and wasn't getting on base. Now, he has a higher OPS, more runs scored, more RBI, and more stolen bases (7 for 9) since 2004 than...Derek Jeter. He even outproduced him in the 2009 World Series.
Clearly the dude needs to be given a little more credit for his play, even if he's among the biggest prima donnas in sports.
Didn't you just limit the sample size here? Eli Manning has more super bowl wins since 2007 then Tom Brady and Peyton Manning combined, let's not go calling Eli better then either of them though ok?
A-Rod could play for another 50 years and not match what Derek has done for his career. As I said with Bonds, that one big postseason he had in 02 does not make up for all his previous failures. A-Rod playing better lately and getting his 1 ring, doesn't make up for the years and years prior, otherwise he could have 3-4 rings instead of just one.
Didn't you just limit the sample size here? Eli Manning has more super bowl wins since 2007 then Tom Brady and Peyton Manning combined, let's not go calling Eli better then either of them though ok?
A-Rod could play for another 50 years and not match what Derek has done for his career. As I said with Bonds, that one big postseason he had in 02 does not make up for all his previous failures. A-Rod playing better lately and getting his 1 ring, doesn't make up for the years and years prior, otherwise he could have 3-4 rings instead of just one.
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I've yet to see a Laker fan say 7 of 12. I'll never understand why that stuff matters to stat guys. He has something like 28 or 32 or something like that game winners. (depending on how you define game winners, buzzer beaters, final 5 seconds, what have you) and nobody else in the league is near there. And that's over the course of 15 years, PLENTY of sample size. Has he shot more then anybody? Yes, absolutely, because his team has trusted him to take the shots, and he's played in a lot of games, etc etc. But tons of guys have played in lots of games, they don't get trusted to take that shot. KG been in the league same amount of time, he won't EVER be seen shooting game winners, he passes the ball like a hot potatoe.
Remember .4 game? How many people remember the fact that Kobe hit the go ahead bucket in the final 20 something seconds, then Duncan hit that miracle shot that gave them the lead with .4, and THEN Fish hit .4? Kobe, Duncan both could have had game winners, but were one upped within the frame of the actual game. Those are clutch shots that get included in your stats, but didn't lead to wins. Fisher's was the shot that mattered. The final shot is the one that matters in a do or die type game. (do or die not meaning eliminaion, I mean win or lose the specific game) Guys hitting a bunch of shots with 35 seconds left and then the other team coming down and scoring means NOTHING. But yet, those show up in your stats. Those stats, that are flawed. You can't POSSIBLY go thru shot after shot after shot to create a "clutch" stat. Relying on game winners may seem simple minded, but it's better then nothing.
