Is Kobe is still exciting to watch?

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 I might have over simplified, but the point is valid.  (not saying A-Rod's teams were always threats to win it all)

I've yet to see a Laker fan say 7 of 12.  I'll never understand why that stuff matters to stat guys.  He has something like 28 or 32 or something like that game winners.  (depending on how you define game winners, buzzer beaters, final 5 seconds, what have you) and nobody else in the league is near there.  And that's over the course of 15 years, PLENTY of sample size.  Has he shot more then anybody?  Yes, absolutely, because his team has trusted him to take the shots, and he's played in a lot of games, etc etc.  But tons of guys have played in lots of games, they don't get trusted to take that shot.  KG been in the league same amount of time, he won't EVER be seen shooting game winners, he passes the ball like a hot potatoe. 

Remember .4 game?  How many people remember the fact that Kobe hit the go ahead bucket in the final 20 something seconds, then Duncan hit that miracle shot that gave them the lead with .4, and THEN Fish hit .4?  Kobe, Duncan both could have had game winners, but were one upped within the frame of the actual game.  Those are clutch shots that get included in your stats, but didn't lead to wins.  Fisher's was the shot that mattered.  The final shot is the one that matters in a do or die type game.  (do or die not meaning eliminaion, I mean win or lose the specific game)  Guys hitting a bunch of shots with 35 seconds left and then the other team coming down and scoring means NOTHING.  But yet, those show up in your stats.  Those stats, that are flawed.  You can't POSSIBLY go thru shot after shot after shot to create a "clutch" stat.  Relying on game winners may seem simple minded, but it's better then nothing. 
 
--So its proven that Kobe and whoever we think is clutch is not clutch. Lets have Luke Walton firing that winning shot yeah?
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 He must have a better percentage than Kobe.
--Cuz percentages matter at the end of games. No, I wouldnt want to give the ball to Kobe with the game tied and 2 seconds left on the clock I really dont like my chances there.
 
--So its proven that Kobe and whoever we think is clutch is not clutch. Lets have Luke Walton firing that winning shot yeah?
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 He must have a better percentage than Kobe.
--Cuz percentages matter at the end of games. No, I wouldnt want to give the ball to Kobe with the game tied and 2 seconds left on the clock I really dont like my chances there.
 
Originally Posted by DARTH DNZY

--So its proven that Kobe and whoever we think is clutch is not clutch. Lets have Luke Walton firing that winning shot yeah?
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 He must have a better percentage than Kobe.
I swear you and CP don't actually READ and comprehend what people post.

Come on son. I didn't even say or imply this at all. Can you at least avoid the strawmen here?
 
Originally Posted by DARTH DNZY

--So its proven that Kobe and whoever we think is clutch is not clutch. Lets have Luke Walton firing that winning shot yeah?
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 He must have a better percentage than Kobe.
I swear you and CP don't actually READ and comprehend what people post.

Come on son. I didn't even say or imply this at all. Can you at least avoid the strawmen here?
 
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 Hey, what I do?  I didn't say nothin about Luke Walton. 
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I've read every word you've typed man. 
 
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 Hey, what I do?  I didn't say nothin about Luke Walton. 
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I've read every word you've typed man. 
 
Originally Posted by CP1708

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 Hey, what I do?  I didn't say nothin about Luke Walton. 
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I've read every word you've typed man. 
--I've read every single word too.
--I just think its a bunch of garbage. Cuz at the end of the day, when people are talkig about the clutch moments in NBA history, NO ONE is gonna go "hooooold up wait a minute, lemme get my stat sheet and see how that clutch moment faired against the other times he/they could have been clutch but was not" 




  
 
Originally Posted by CP1708

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 Hey, what I do?  I didn't say nothin about Luke Walton. 
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I've read every word you've typed man. 
--I've read every single word too.
--I just think its a bunch of garbage. Cuz at the end of the day, when people are talkig about the clutch moments in NBA history, NO ONE is gonna go "hooooold up wait a minute, lemme get my stat sheet and see how that clutch moment faired against the other times he/they could have been clutch but was not" 




  
 
DARTH DNZY wrote:
--I just think its a bunch of garbage. Cuz at the end of the day, when people are talkig about the clutch moments in NBA history, NO ONE is gonna go "hooooold up wait a minute, lemme get my stat sheet and see how that clutch moment faired against the other times he/they could have been clutch but was not" 


Valid valid point there. 
 
DARTH DNZY wrote:
--I just think its a bunch of garbage. Cuz at the end of the day, when people are talkig about the clutch moments in NBA history, NO ONE is gonna go "hooooold up wait a minute, lemme get my stat sheet and see how that clutch moment faired against the other times he/they could have been clutch but was not" 


Valid valid point there. 
 
So what's the problem then? Remember, when most people say "Kobe is my go-to guy in the clutch/game-winning shot situation", they're not simply talking about raw number of makes. Unless you think that making 30 out of 100,000 game-winning shots is impressive. (That's hyperbole, by the way. You get the point.)

Rather, it's to suggest two things: that Kobe (hell, just name any player; just so you don't then start thinking I have a vendetta against dude when I absolutely don't) has a higher success rate than anyone else and can "save" his best play for the clutch, AND that his success in the clutch is why he should get the ball in the future. There's where statisticians come in and actually verify these claims. To the first they say that Kobe doesn't actually improve his production in such situations (keeping in mind the volume of shots he takes), and to the second, they say that looking at clutch numbers is a bit flawed anyway because players play to their usual level over more attempts (stars play like stars, Luke Waltons play like Luke Waltons). So it's not even as if I'm saying Bean isn't someone I want shooting the ball, just not for the same reason you're thinking of.
 
So what's the problem then? Remember, when most people say "Kobe is my go-to guy in the clutch/game-winning shot situation", they're not simply talking about raw number of makes. Unless you think that making 30 out of 100,000 game-winning shots is impressive. (That's hyperbole, by the way. You get the point.)

Rather, it's to suggest two things: that Kobe (hell, just name any player; just so you don't then start thinking I have a vendetta against dude when I absolutely don't) has a higher success rate than anyone else and can "save" his best play for the clutch, AND that his success in the clutch is why he should get the ball in the future. There's where statisticians come in and actually verify these claims. To the first they say that Kobe doesn't actually improve his production in such situations (keeping in mind the volume of shots he takes), and to the second, they say that looking at clutch numbers is a bit flawed anyway because players play to their usual level over more attempts (stars play like stars, Luke Waltons play like Luke Waltons). So it's not even as if I'm saying Bean isn't someone I want shooting the ball, just not for the same reason you're thinking of.
 
I always enjoy these debates now.. Because everyone has become Tim Kurkjian in analyzing sports...
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I always enjoy these debates now.. Because everyone has become Tim Kurkjian in analyzing sports...
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--The thing is Luke, you're trying too hard to "unclutch" clutch moments with all these numbers.
--Oh so _____ made a game winning shot last night, that was clutch. "but he's not clutch cuz he missed so many times before"
--Players have certain degrees and reputations for being clutch. All the opposing NBA coaches know who's gonna get the ball when facing the Lakers with 2 seconds left. Can those professionals be wrong?
 
--The thing is Luke, you're trying too hard to "unclutch" clutch moments with all these numbers.
--Oh so _____ made a game winning shot last night, that was clutch. "but he's not clutch cuz he missed so many times before"
--Players have certain degrees and reputations for being clutch. All the opposing NBA coaches know who's gonna get the ball when facing the Lakers with 2 seconds left. Can those professionals be wrong?
 
Originally Posted by DARTH DNZY

--The thing is Luke, you're trying too hard to "unclutch" clutch moments with all these numbers.
I'm not knocking the clutch MOMENT. You hit both free-throws to win the game, you call call it "clutch" or whatever else you want. I'm more interested in "clutchness" with regards to player performance.

Not sure what your other points have to do with anything I said.
 
Originally Posted by DARTH DNZY

--The thing is Luke, you're trying too hard to "unclutch" clutch moments with all these numbers.
I'm not knocking the clutch MOMENT. You hit both free-throws to win the game, you call call it "clutch" or whatever else you want. I'm more interested in "clutchness" with regards to player performance.

Not sure what your other points have to do with anything I said.
 
Originally Posted by Backirvine

Originally Posted by KenJi714

Of course i didn't try to start that lame usual Kobe vs Jordan war but everyone have their own opinion. I just think Kobe is a better player and i like his game better than Jordan. Jordan is a better athlete and more physically gifted just like Lebron. Kobe is a better shooter and better footwork.
Shooting is debatable. There is no way that Kobe's footwork is better than Jordan's though. Jordan was unstoppable in the low post, mostly thanks to his amazing footwork. Kobe isn't at that level. 


I got nothing to say about MJ, but you're not giving KB the respect he deserves.

There's nobody in the league than better footwork than Kobe. That's part of the reason he's still relevant while getting older.
 
Originally Posted by Backirvine

Originally Posted by KenJi714

Of course i didn't try to start that lame usual Kobe vs Jordan war but everyone have their own opinion. I just think Kobe is a better player and i like his game better than Jordan. Jordan is a better athlete and more physically gifted just like Lebron. Kobe is a better shooter and better footwork.
Shooting is debatable. There is no way that Kobe's footwork is better than Jordan's though. Jordan was unstoppable in the low post, mostly thanks to his amazing footwork. Kobe isn't at that level. 


I got nothing to say about MJ, but you're not giving KB the respect he deserves.

There's nobody in the league than better footwork than Kobe. That's part of the reason he's still relevant while getting older.
 
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