***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[Brownstone]

Let's face it Sanders is done and a narcissistic man that happens to be delusional to boot. I don't care what his fundraising numbers say, he has become stale. He has fallen into the same Trap Hillary did, campaigning for 6+ years and it's beginning to sound repetitive. I'm not the biggest Warren Fan (Laughable foreign policy) but she is Sanders with actual charisma and freshness.

 

[RustyShackleford]

You made the claim

I made the claim that she was already a diversity hire, so her claiming Native American just to help her career was pointless if someone if arguing her being a diversity hire got her a leg up. She would be one regardless

You are the one demanding "prove to me claiming Native American didn't help her". How exactly I'm I suppose to prove that to your satisfaction?

And you don't see the implicit racism in your argument too? That a minority doesn't get ahead on their skill, but their race.

And I want to put out the framing of "she lied to get a leg up" is your framing because she claims she was told this by her family and just believe it.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I mentioned Joe because you asked why criticized Warren's lying and not everyone elses. Don't make it seem like I was saying that to deflect.

There's plenty to critic about Warren (being a repub for until the 90's, here love captialism, and adoption of Sander's positions when it again became convenient to her campaign) but as you and most here won't admit is that they're simply a matter of opinion about how I as a voter would go about things. Not things that objectively wrong, again, you can make a titan graph with a thousand links to a person who you think is credible with regards to whatever approach you don't like in Bernie's policies but at the end of the day. It's all dubious at best, and a matter of opinion at the most.

Quote what you are talking about because i am not following.

-Warren didn't just adopt Sanders positions, she has had plenty of original progressives plans put out before Sanders. And if you are making that charge then I guess Bernie copied her on the wealth tax and having employee representation on boards. Warren is a known public policy wonk, to make the argument she just copying off Bernie is ridiculous to anyone that seriously follows public policy debates. Good that she believes in the power of well regulated capitalist markets, so does Bernie, a lot. I have criticized her about the Republican thing too.

-And dude I am economist by training and trade, I don't just cherry pick **** to bring down Bernie plans. Some of the **** Bernie proposed has serious political and economic shortcomings. I chose to not stick my head in the sand about them. If you want to debate policy, then come on, it would be a welcomed change of pace from pearl clutching you have been doing over my tone.

 

[youngogjosh]

I made the claim that she was already a diversity hire, so her claiming Native American just to help her career was pointless. And I want to put out the framing of "she lied to get a leg up" is your framing because she claims she was told this by her family and just believe it.

You are the one demanding "prove to me claiming Native American didn't help her"

First off, I never denied what I framed. Secondly, the lie was told is all that matters, she probably thought her being a woman wasn't good enough and added the native part in. That still means she lied, we'll never know whether it factored in or not, that was never the point I was trying to make. You mentioned it as an expertly applied deflect, straight out of Dwalk's playbook.

 

[equality]

Not a fan of Bernie simply based on his federal job program. I'm still favoring Yang ove the other Dem candidates because his proposal of $1,000 per month gives us freedom to choose what is best for us. The best analogy is something he mentioned several times. Nobody asks what shareholders do with the dividend they receive. Should be no different for every citizen (shareholder) of the most powerful economy in the history of this earth.

Bernie's federal job program assumes a job is the end all be all to everyone's problems. Yang gives an example of his wife who is a stay at home mom for their 2 kids, one of whom is autistic. She's likely not searching for a job but there is economic value in what she's doing - trying to raise better children who are contributors to society in the future. The way we think of "value" needs to catch up to the 21st century.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Can it be both?

America was built on racism so that’s real. There’s also some broke *** white folk don’t hate minorities but hate being poor more

Sorry but in this situation, no.

Bernie and his supporters tried to excuse a specific group of white folk, and political scientist disproved the argument with research.

Plus I have conceded that their might be some white people some places that voted for Trump as a economic hail mary. However it was not a large scale phenomena. Bernie is the one that said none of the them did it out of racism.

 

[youngogjosh]

Quote what you are talking about because i am not following.

-Warren didn't just adopt Sanders positions, she has had plenty of original progressives plans put out before Sanders. And if you are making that charge then I guess Bernie copied her on the wealth tax and having employee representation on boards. Warren is a known public policy wonk, to make the argument she just copying off Bernie is ridiculous to anyone that seriously follows public policy debates. Good that she believes in the power of well regulated capitalist markets, so does Bernie, a lot. I have criticized her about the Republican thing too.

-And dude I am economist by training and trade, I don't just cherry pick **** to bring down Bernie plans. Some of the **** Bernie proposed has serious political and economic shortcomings. I chose to not stick my head in the sand about them. If you want to debate policy, then come on, it would be a welcomed change of pace from pearl clutching you have been doing over my tone.

You don't see me saying flat out he can't be trust on his word over these instances? I would bet money you would never. But you apply a different standard to other candidates.

This is the quote the bolded was in response to

Wealth taxes aren't exactly a new and unpopular idea and Warren certainly didn't make anywhere near the amount of noise that Sanders did in his proposal of it.

I'm no economist so discussing markets would be a fruitless effort on both of our parts. Besides given what little I do know about markets and economies from school aren't they all based upon different schools of thought similar to say, philosophy? Wouldn't the only valid discussion be how economic policies perform that are based on those schools?

 

[RustyShackleford]

First off, I never denied what I framed. Secondly, the lie was told is all that matters, she probably thought her being a woman wasn't good enough and added the native part in. That still means she lied, we'll never know whether it factored in or not, that was never the point I was trying to make. You mentioned it as an expertly applied deflect, straight out of Dwalk's playbook.

You spew all this conjecture then have a guts accuse someone of being like DWalk.

What am I deflecting on? Proving that Warren's career didn't benefit from the Native American distinction. Well I can't prove that, and frankly I don't know what I have to because I never made that specific assertion. When I expounded on my first point I said she was already I diversity hire. So doubling up made no sense if she thought there was a benefit. That's the specific claim.

You yourself have no proof she did benefit except repeating a racist trope that minorities get ahead because of their race.

 

[youngogjosh]

Not a fan of Bernie simply based on his federal job program. I'm still favoring Yang ove the other Dem candidates because his proposal of $1,000 per month gives us freedom to choose what is best for us. The best analogy is something he mentioned several times. Nobody asks what shareholders do with the dividend they receive. Should be no different for every citizen (shareholder) of the most powerful economy in the history of this earth.

Bernie's federal job program assumes a job is the end all be all to everyone's problems. Yang gives an example of his wife who is a stay at home mom for their 2 kids, one of whom is autistic. She's likely not searching for a job but there is economic value in what she's doing - trying to raise better children who are contributors to society in the future. The way we think of "value" needs to catch up to the 21st century.

$1,000 doesn't hold the same value in all 50 states, don't see how that alone would be an effective policy.

 

[storm2006]

$1,000 doesn't hold the same value in all 50 states, don't see how that alone would be an effective policy.

Agreed but it’s obviously a reasonable amount and better than nothing. If it’s not enough wouldn’t moving to a location where your dollar held greater weight and would be generally more beneficial for your good move anyway?

 

[boris]

Several of your posts suggest to me that you expect people to read your mind.

 

[youngogjosh]

You spew all this conjecture then have a guts accuse someone of being like DWalk.

What am I deflecting on? Proving that Warren's career didn't benefit from the Native American distinction. Well I can't prove that, and frankly I don't know what I have to because I never made that specific assertion. When I expounded on my first point I said she was already I diversity hire. So doubling up made no sense if she thought there was a benefit. That's the specific claim.

You yourself have no proof she did benefit except repeating a racist trope that minorities get ahead because of their race.

You're claim theat her being a woman was a enough for a diversity hire doesn't really hold any weight at all. That's an assumption. I asked you for specifics more than once on how the specific college and the company she worked at factors either of those in and you couldn't come up with anything. Her reasoning for doubling up is irrelevant, I've been saying that since you brought it up. Stop deflecting.

I'm not even going to address the racism accusation, I'm not on a ninjahood steez.

 

[youngogjosh]

Agreed but it’s obviously a reasonable amount and better than nothing. If it’s not enough wouldn’t moving to a location where your dollar held greater weight and would be generally more beneficial for your good move anyway?

I feel like expecting a person who's in a location where $1,000 isn't a significant help to move is unreasonable. It's like asking why don't people in the Caribbean move because that region has frequent tropical storms. The better idea would be to build better infrastructure to withstand those storms, same here with people in poverty.

 

[storm2006]

You're claim theat her being a woman was a enough for a diversity hire doesn't really hold any weight at all. That's an assumption. I asked you for specifics more than once on how the specific college and the company she worked at factors either of those in and you couldn't come up with anything. Her reasoning for doubling up is irrelevant, I've been saying that since you brought it up. Stop deflecting.

I'm not even going to address the racism accusation, I'm not on a ninjahood steez.

Acting as if being a woman isn’t a preferential diversity hire, especially for important gigs, in 2019 is intellectually dishonest.

 

[youngogjosh]

Several of your posts suggest to me that you expect people to read your mind.

I can't help how you interpret my posts.

 

[RustyShackleford]

This is the quote the bolded was in response to

Wealth taxes aren't exactly a new and unpopular idea and Warren certainly didn't make anywhere near the amount of noise that Sanders did in his proposal of it.

I'm no economist so discussing markets would be a fruitless effort on both of our parts. Besides given what little I do know about markets and economies from school aren't they all based upon different schools of thought similar to say, philosophy? Wouldn't the only valid discussion be how economic policies perform that are based on those schools?

I am saying here that if I made a similar argument about Bernie, you would reject it, but you are cool with doing for other candidates. I am alluding to you doing it to Warren, using a argument against her you would never accept against Bernie.

Dude when Warren proposed the wealth tax it got plenty of buzz ago economist and pundits. Nearly every economic and business commentator weighed in.

The field of economics has a philosophical side, and a empirical side. So yes there is debate over theories between different Economic "Schools" but there is empirical data that helps us decide who is more on the money. This is why we know empirically that supply side economics doesn't work. However the objections I bring up about Bernie are not some high level abstract objections, they are simple economic principles that Bernie seems to not consider. So it is not just cherry picking things to discredit Bernie. A ton of economist that spend their life's work trying to come up with policy to get the same outcomes as Bernie, who Bernie and the left often cite in their argument, also raise issue with some stuff Bernie does.

There are plenty of good faith criticism to make about Bernie's policies.

So again, it you want to debate policy we can do that but it seems you want to handwave any objections from the jump anyway.

 

[youngogjosh]

Acting as if being a woman isn’t a preferential diversity hire, especially for important gigs, in 2019 is intellectually dishonest.

Please point to said being a woman wasn't preferential. Never made that claim, not even in the post you quoted.

 

[youngogjosh]

I am saying here that if I made a similar argument about Bernie, you would reject it, but you are cool with doing for other candidates. I am alluding to you doing it to Warren, using a argument against her you would never accept against Bernie.

Dude when Warren proposed the wealth tax it got plenty of buzz ago economist and pundits. Nearly every economic and business commentator weighed in.

The field of economics has a philosophical side, and a empirical side. So yes there is debate over theories between different Economic "Schools" but there is empirical data that helps us decide who is more on the money. This is why we know empirically that supply side economics doesn't work. However the objections I bring up about Bernie are not some high level abstract objections, they are simple economic principles that Bernie seems to not consider. So it is not just cherry picking things to discredit Bernie. A ton of economist that spend their life's work trying to come up with policy to get the same outcomes as Bernie, who Bernie and the left often cite in their argument, also raise issue with some stuff Bernie does.

There are plenty of good faith criticism to make about Bernie's policies.

So again, it you want to debate policy we can do that but it seems you want to handwave any objections from the jump anyway.

You can't make a similar post because Brenard never lied about anything as ridiculous as Warren has.

How was that buzz where it mattered, amongst voters? She didn't push that idea into the mainstream like Bernie did.

I feel like you stopped reading some of my posts, I mentioned in a post that many critics of policy are simply opinions. I don't think Warren is left enough but I don't pretend that she's some failson because she has different opinions on the economy than I do. Same with her focus on courting the suburban college educated lib vote. It's not massive fail on her part, it's simply who she currently resonates with the most. Compare that to how talk about Bernie in an actually similar situation and not lying about being Native American and the difference is stark. I'm trying to get you to see this but you seem to not want to even acknowledge it.

 

[equality]

I feel like expecting a person who's in a location where $1,000 isn't a significant help to move is unreasonable. It's like asking why don't people in the Caribbean move because that region has frequent tropical storms. The better idea would be to build better infrastructure to withstand those storms, same here with people in poverty.

The $1000 isn’t meant to be a fix to al problems. It’s a supplement to relieve some of the stress that comes from being strapped financially. $1000 helps in all states for student debt, car repairs, books, unexpected bills. It’s not the same as telling everyone to move, because if an extra $12000 a year still puts you in poverty and misery in NYC, then a real consideration should be to move. I live alone in a cheaper state, and the next state over is my preference but much more expensive to live alone. I can’t have it both ways. $1000 is only meant to supplements not replace.

 

[RustyShackleford]

You're claim theat her being a woman was a enough for a diversity hire doesn't really hold any weight at all. That's an assumption. I asked you for specifics more than once on how the specific college and the company she worked at factors either of those in and you couldn't come up with anything. Her reasoning for doubling up is irrelevant, I've been saying that since you brought it up. Stop deflecting.

I'm not even going to address the racism accusation, I'm not on a ninjahood steez.

Here, key part dealing specifically with Harvard....

Harvard had been the subject of a discrimination lawsuit at the time regarding its hiring practices, and the school was openly trying to hire women and people of color at its law school.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/a...cord_straight_on_elizabeth_warren_140678.html

So for Harvard, either one would have helped.

I said her being a woman makes her a diversity hire. From everything I read on affirmative action, diversity practices during that time, my own experience in the procurement field, and research says white women have been used to bolster diversity stats. They have reaped massive reward from Affirmative Actions...
https://www.vox.com/2016/5/25/11682950/fisher-supreme-court-white-women-affirmative-action

So yes, all things point to her being a diversity hire anyway. Going by Harvard's moves and federal guidelines.

-I am not calling you a racist. Ninja is a vile racist, I have no reason to believe you are one. I am saying your argument is racist in nature. It is like when Omar implied Jews buy influence. I don't think she is a racist, but she did repeat a racist trope. Just like you are doing.

 

[storm2006]

Please point to said being a woman wasn't preferential. Never made that claim, not even in the post you quoted.

If you’re admitting it is preferential, why are you perplexed RustyShackleford is claiming such?

 

[aepps20]

It’s spicy in here

Lib on Lib Violence. CAN'T WAIT

 

[youngogjosh]

If you’re admitting it is preferential, why are you perplexed RustyShackleford is claiming such?

That's not the claim I made

 

[youngogjosh]

The $1000 isn’t meant to be a fix to al problems. It’s a supplement to relieve some of the stress that comes from being strapped financially. $1000 helps in all states for student debt, car repairs, books, unexpected bills. It’s not the same as telling everyone to move, because if an extra $12000 a year still puts you in poverty and misery in NYC, then a real consideration should be to move. I live alone in a cheaper state, and the next state over is my preference but much more expensive to live alone. I can’t have it both ways. $1000 is only meant to supplements not replace.

You'd literally have to account that for inflation every year. It's a band aid type solution. Why spend on that when you could make some significant structural changes?

 

[youngogjosh]

Here, key part dealing specifically with Harvard....


https://www.realclearpolitics.com/a...cord_straight_on_elizabeth_warren_140678.html

So for Harvard, either one would have helped.

I said her being a woman makes her a diversity hire. From everything I read on affirmative action, diversity practices during that time, my own experience in the procurement field, and research says white women have been used to bolster diversity stats. They have reaped massive reward from Affirmative Actions...
https://www.vox.com/2016/5/25/11682950/fisher-supreme-court-white-women-affirmative-action

So yes, all things point to her being a diversity hire anyway. Going by Harvard's moves and federal guidelines.

-I am not calling you a racist. Ninja is a vile racist, I have no reason to believe you are one. I am saying your argument is racist in nature. It is like when Omar implied Jews buy influence. I don't think she is a racist, but she did repeat a racist trope. Just like you are doing.

How do you know both minority statuses didn't help the other? If you spent this much time seeing how messed up lying was instead of deflecting to I point that doesn't matter we'd be getting somewhere