***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[Brownstone]

“for not having rich parents, I didn't have nor do I feel that poverty is an indication of character or worth. I do however, feel that an individual is not abdicated from ANY responsibility, but to hell with MY beliefs. This is about the direction of the country. I also know the danger of conflating "moral" issues with economic ones, and having a pragmatic plan does not make me an opponent of change, quite the opposite.”

My response is to that paragraph. “While poverty isn’t a indication of character or worth .... an individual is not abdicated from ANY responsibility”

Also read the whole thing Biden was a major contributor to creating the system for federal loans that exists today that does not let people remove college debt during bankruptcy. He claimed it was a compromise to convince private lenders through the federal government to extend loans to more people as a way of making college a more equal/universal right. The reality is they didn’t increase dramatically the amount of people who got college loans, that was in the grand scheme never hard to get. Instead it did lock people into paying those loans and created a situation where college began to charge more, and loans went up because it was guaranteed money. Basically the law Biden pushed through led to college prices skyrocketing

If you reread my quote, it is a separate sentence for a reason.......while of course personal decision plays a role in outcomes. Nobody deserves to be born into poverty. Nice try though.

As far as your second point, are you attacking my point of view that college is not a right? Or the fact that Biden disagreed with me 15 years ago? We quoting Obamas views on gay marriage as well?

 

[tay1]

I want to take this opportunity to invite all the Bernie Bros to do the RIGHT thing.

Give yourself to the Coal Gang. It is the only way you can save your socialist dreams. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for Dumbocrats are strong. Especially for... Obama. But your feelings have now betrayed him too. Now their failure is complete.

Don't make Trump destroy you. Bernie Bros, you do not yet realize your importance. You've only begun to discover your power! Join Trump, and we will complete your mission! With our combined strength, we can end the do-nothing Dumbocrats, and bring order to America. If only you knew the power of the RIGHT Side! Bernie never told you what happened to communists. Trump is your Communist Candidate! Search your feelings, you know it to be true!

Bernie Bros, you can destroy Joe Biden. Trump has foreseen this. It is your destiny! Join Trump, and together, we can rule the country as father and bros! Come with Trump. It is the only way.

You promise we’ll destroy Biden?

 

[obeahmyal7]

Vox with a breakdown of the electorate in Massachusetts. Basically white women with college degrees is her base. White men without a college degree ain’t rocking at all with her.

Why Elizabeth Warren lost her home state of Massachusetts

Warren is poised to come in third in the Massachusetts primary, behind Biden and Sanders.

www.vox.com

 

[RustyShackleford]

But RustyShackleford

the question remain: even if he wins the general election (and I just don’t see it). Do you think that the kind of politician Biden has been, and the kinds of power brokers within his coalition, will look turn a new page or reignite the kinds of policies that decimated the livelihoods of so many?

Thing is Joe Biden is not being elected as Supreme Ruler. If Biden gets House and, a Senate with no filibuster and a liberal marginal vote he can sign into law many programs that had help the most vulnerable in this country. Same if Sanders had that Congress

If either have to deal with McConnell for four years, then hardly anything gets done.

So famb, while the Presidency is important, and who occupies the Presidency is important, if we are talking about substantive change having Congressional majorities are something that will always shape my thinking. I just don't see that great of a difference between a potential Biden presidency, and a potential Sanders presidency for me to that upset over Bernie not getting it given the Congressional forces that will be in play come 2021.

Between Joe and Bernie, of course I would prefer Sanders to be president. However, Sanders whole pitch to overcome political roadblocks was a political revolution that so far has no materialized unfortunately. So these arguments I have been hearing about Bernie being able to force through **** no one else can seem even more improbable now.

 

[Wargames]

If you reread my quote, it is a separate sentence for a reason.......while of course personal decision plays a role in outcomes. Nobody deserve to be born into poverty.

As far as your second point, are you attacking my point of view that college is not a right? Or the fact that Biden disagreed with me 15 years ago? We quoting Obamas views on gay marriage as well?

Fair enough I misunderstood because paragraph structure was bad. You began by talking about poverty and then go onto a responsibility and without a word about college. You should say College debt is any one’s responsibility and even then I would counter with. The reason the debt is so much is Biden helped passed a law that guaranteed a return on investment so every college hiked up their prices.

As for Biden, yes, whenever college debt is brought up I will call out Biden as one of the Dems who broke ranks to vote for that ****** law and went on the record saying it was a good law. His public reasoning at the time was about how he was doing it to extend college to everyone. However, when/if you read the whole article it talks about how much money credit companies donated to him that year and how his buddy Cocaine Mitch was as big a proponent of the law as Biden was.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

A big comeback for "The Party Decides" theory,


it took em a while but the party infrastructure did indeed decide, and it's biden.

 

[Quincy McCall]

Sad to see Warren go out sad, some of the regressive views of the black Biden support(in here specifically), and Bern be further exposed as ordinary

But, blue ticket regardless

 

[starfox070]

Yes, in the general he will.

people go hard for a lot of things then. I mean actually try to enact it

 

[obeahmyal7]

Thing is Joe Biden is not being elected as Supreme Ruler. If Biden gets House and, a Senate with no filibuster and a liberal marginal vote he can sign into law many programs that had help the most vulnerable in this country. Same if Sanders had that Congress

If either have to deal with McConnell for four years, then hardly anything gets done.

So famb, while the Presidency is important, and who occupies the Presidency is important, if we are talking about substantive change having Congressional majorities are something that will always shape my thinking. I just don't see that great of a difference between a potential Biden presidency, and a potential Sanders presidency for me to that upset over Bernie not getting it given the Congressional forces that will be in play come 2021.

Between Joe and Bernie, of course I would prefer Sanders to be president. However, Sanders whole pitch to overcome political roadblocks was a political revolution that so far has no materialized unfortunately. So these arguments I have been hearing about Bernie being able to force through **** no one else can seem even more improbable now.

I hear you. My thinking is that at this point we need executive order after executive order. And I think Sanders is the only one really prepared to bend the imperial presidency (that’s not his own making) towards more egalitarian ends. It doesn’t obviate the question of Congress at all, but I think trump has really weakened the powers of congress in a fundamental way. That can be exploited even as we work towards dislocating power from the executive branch.

Second, show me a persons friends and I’ll tell you their character. I’m just not convinced that even with support from a reclaimed House and Senate, that Biden would upset the potent forces who are vested in the immiseration of the many.

So even if he wins, we need someone to discipline capital in a structurally transformative way. Do you think Biden is the guy for that? More, is his base composed of people who will demand that?

 

[starfox070]

Not to get into the middle of your debate but this is double talk.

Explain why anyone who is poor is responsible in some part for it and how that belief isn’t you just moralizing an economic issue?

Also as a Biden supporter it’s ironic you’re bringing up college debt and saying it is not a right when Biden used that same argument when he altered credit loan laws to extend it to basically everyone, while also removing the stipulation that it could be expelled as debt during bankruptcy?

How Biden helped create the student debt problem he now promises to fix

The former vice-president and 2020 presidential hopeful backed a 2005 bill that stripped students of bankruptcy protections and left millions in financial stress

www.theguardian.com

Like literally Biden was very much a key person in the College loans crisis

I can second that. I’m not for forgiving but fixing it for the next I’m cool with

 

[Sonny Corinthos]

Bloomberg is spending more than a million a week on his run

 

[Brownstone]

Fair enough I misunderstood because paragraph structure was bad. You began by talking about poverty and then go onto a responsibility and without a word about college. You should say College debt is any one’s responsibility and even then I would counter with. The reason the debt is so much is Biden helped passed a law that guaranteed a return on investment so every college hiked up their prices.

As for Biden, yes, whenever college debt is brought up I will call out Biden as one of the Dems who broke ranks to vote for that ****ty law and went on the record saying it was a good law. His public reasoning at the time was about how he was doing it to extend college to everyone. However, when/if you read the whole article it talks about how much money credit companies donated to him that year and how his buddy Cocaine Mitch was as big a proponent of the law as Biden was.

I would then state that tuition was increasing BEFORE that legislation...

Fast Facts: Tuition costs of colleges and universities (76)

The NCES Fast Facts Tool provides quick answers to many education questions (National Center for Education Statistics). Get answers on Early Childhood Education, Elementary and Secondary Education and Higher Education here.

nces.ed.gov

Administrators and tenured professors drive up costs and transfer wealth from students in the form of tuition costs.

Every college counsels students on the loans they take out and encourages public before private loans. Nobody is forced to take out loans.

 

[starfox070]

These next debates will be interesting because the field is stripped down and we can get more clear ideas on candidates issues

warren I wanna see if she attacks the new front runner or burnie which will show her colors.

Biden I want clear stances and how he plans to do them. Just want more social benefits for those who need them.

sanders we know the story.

 

[superblytrife]

Dog who TF is voting for Tulsi? Madness.

 

[IATT]

 

[starfox070]

Bloomberg is spending more than a million a week on his run

other than stroke his small ego. He could have donated that money.

who the hell told him he would win. I mean someone conned that man out of 500m

 

[Wargames]

I can second that. I’m not for forgiving but fixing it for the next I’m cool with

Here is a common sense fix. Stop charging interest and let people you know pay off the principle. That way the “Well I didn’t go to college so ****’em, crowd can still feel savvy in their life decisions”. Hell take it a step further. Forgive any any outstanding interest accrued. Then make public universities free. That way at least people can.... you know pay the loan off.

 

[starfox070]

Dog who TF is voting for Tulsi? Madness.

fam folks who don’t give a F.

 

[starfox070]

Here is a common sense fix. Stop charging interest and let people you know pay off the principle. That way the “Well I didn’t go to college so ****’em, crowd can still feel savvy in their life decisions”. Hell take it a step further. Forgive any any outstanding interest accrued. Then make public universities free. That way at least people can.... you know pay the loan off.

I like that plan I went and payed my loans it sucked but I did it.

cancel interest I can see that as a good compromise. And free school. Heck I would go back for some computer stuff.

NT better than congress lmao

Passing compromised bills

 

[obeahmyal7]

I would then state that tuition was increasing BEFORE that legislation...

Fast Facts: Tuition costs of colleges and universities (76)

The NCES Fast Facts Tool provides quick answers to many education questions (National Center for Education Statistics). Get answers on Early Childhood Education, Elementary and Secondary Education and Higher Education here.

nces.ed.gov

Administrators and tenured professors drive up costs and transfer wealth from students in the form of tuition costs.

The link your provided showed changing costs of college education over time. It did not offer anything causal.

What evidence do you have that it’s tenured faculty driving up costs? And between admins and faculty, doesn’t the former take home far more spoils? And where in your analysis is the costs of failed development (ie borrowing to facilitate campus expansion that did not yield immediate dividends)?

 

[RustyShackleford]

I hear you. My thinking is that at this point we need executive order after executive order. And I think Sanders is the only one really prepared to bend the imperial presidency (that’s not his own making) towards more egalitarian ends. It doesn’t obviate the question of Congress at all, but I think trump has really weakened the powers of congress in a fundamental way. That can be exploited even as we work towards dislocating power from the executive branch.

Second, show me a persons friends and I’ll tell you their character. I’m just not convinced that even with support from a reclaimed House and Senate, that Biden would upset the potent forces who are vested in the immiseration of the many.

So even if he wins, we need someone to discipline capital in a structurally transformative way. Do you think Biden is the guy for that? More, is his base composed of people who will demand that?

The courts are filled with Trump appointees. Those dudes are waiting to strike down Bernie's executive orders if they are too far reaching. You can't enact substantive change that will stick without controlling all three branches of government.

No I don't think Biden is the guy that will go after capital. A Sander's DOJ, and Treasury will probably be better than Biden's. So yes, on the criteria of better governance I definitely think Bernie is better. But it doesn't take one guy, even the president. It takes putting thousands of progressive people into power, and dozens in the right spots. So I just don't think a Sanders Presidency by itself can deliver transformative change. But I think Biden will be at our slightly left to a liberal marginal voter in the House or Senate, so I don't have this unique distrust of him sabotaging policy if we have the votes.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Was hoping a divided field would allow Bernie to take this, but with "the party deciding" on Biden,

it might be curtains for Bernie.



Props to him no matter what happens, pushed american politics to the left significantly.

 

[Wargames]

I would then state that tuition was increasing BEFORE that legislation...

Fast Facts: Tuition costs of colleges and universities (76)

The NCES Fast Facts Tool provides quick answers to many education questions (National Center for Education Statistics). Get answers on Early Childhood Education, Elementary and Secondary Education and Higher Education here.

nces.ed.gov

Administrators and tenured professors drive up costs and transfer wealth from students in the form of tuition costs.

Wait you don’t think it’s note worthy that while it took 20 years (1985 - 2005) for schools tuitions to grow from say 15k to 25k it just took ten years from when the law was enacted (2005-2015) for the tuition of most those college examples to go from 25k - 35k? That level of growth is across the board too. Plus how much has that rate increased from from 2015?

 

[starfox070]

she staying in the race. Clearly Her plan is to split votes. Lmao.

also hey gabby spent like 5 dollars and still killing it.

 

[starfox070]

Was hoping a divided field would allow Bernie to take this, but with "the party deciding" on Biden,

it might be curtains for Bernie.



Props to him no matter what happens, pushed american politics to the left significantly.

they going right back to the center. I think tonight proves you can ignore progressive and use plants like warren to cripple them.

centrist have money and name
recognition to protect them.