***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[getback]

 

[IATT]

dwalk31

 

[RustyShackleford]

dwalk31

Trump is being trash as usual. The next Democratic president is gonna have his/her hands full with rebuilding our bureaucracy.

Sidenote: Ole girl has some amazing eyes.

 

[rexanglorum]

So black people living under the boot of white supremacy in the deep south and voted for Biden because he looked like the better option to defeat Trump are on the side of barbarism

Got it.

Maybe I should become a leftist. That way I can attain the delusional level of self importance needed to lecture to people that face oppression I never have about how they are on the side of their oppressors because they are not socialist, like me.

I swear, this energy is exactly the reason DSA meetings stay mostly lilly white.

Plenty of women, especially SA survivors and women of color would disagree with your assessment of Biden and the overall utility of the Democratic Party as a vehicle for change.

Now we know that in a game of oppression Olympics you beat me, I check every box for privileged. At the same time, they are plenty of leftists who see Biden and the Democratic Party as unfavorable as I see them and in many cases their assessment is more severe than mine. Many of those people have backgrounds and circumstances that make them even more vulnerable to bad or malicious governance than a cishet, high earning black man; and yet, they see voting blue no matter who as a self destructive act.

 

[dacomeup]

Now we know that in a game of oppression Olympics you beat me, I check every box for privileged

Maybe that’s the problem here. You can make offhand pejorative remarks about the oppression Olympics while other people actually have to live through and experience this ****.

 

[rexanglorum]

Also, we know that a lot of people, especially at a lot of poor, marginalized people, who are eligible to vote, will not vote in November. Now they don't vote and that helps Trump because they could have gone and voted for Biden. Biden's administration will kill fewer people than four more years of Trump, we all agree on that.

I ask, RustyShackleford , junglejim and anyone else, do you agree with people's decision to not vote?

 

[rexanglorum]

Maybe that’s the problem here. You can make offhand pejorative remarks about the oppression Olympics while other people actually have to live through and experience this ****.

What do you say to the people, who are more marginalized than you, who supported Bernie but now won't support Biden?

Also, it is a little untoward for a mostly male forum to be less than outraged at very credible rape allegations. Would women who refuse to vote for Biden be bad or would you not criticize it because hey, we, in all likelihood, don't know what it's like be sexually harassed and raped.

 

[Methodical Management]

we know that in a game of oppression Olympics you beat me, I check every box for privileged.

 

[rexanglorum]

I swear to god, and I may be totally mistaken, but didn't Dirtylicious say "oppression olympics" in the context that different marginalized groups shouldn't compete over who is singularly the most marginalized and therefore whose insights into strategy for emancipation is categorically better.

 

[dacomeup]

What do you say to the people, who are more marginalized than you, who supported Bernie but now won't support Biden?

Also, it is a little untoward for a mostly male forum to be less than outraged at very credible rape allegations. Would women who refuse to vote for Biden be bad or would you not criticize it because hey, we, in all likelihood, don't know what it's like be sexually harassed and raped.

1. Bernie is supporting Biden and is successfully pushing the campaign further left.
2. Our democracy and institutions are still under attack - another 4 years of Trump would likely end up with a reversal of Roe v. Wade, further attack on healthcare, future erosion of Affirmative Action, and any liberal policy that they are in favor of.

I haven’t criticized any women, nor would I based on their reluctance to pledge support to Biden due to the allegations. But since you’re clearly capable of understanding why you shouldn’t criticize minorities for their choice to not pledge support to one’s candidate of choice since you haven’t experienced walking in their shoes, then I hope that you can take that same approach to black voters.

 

[rexanglorum]

1. Bernie is supporting Biden and is successfully pushing the campaign further left.
2. Our democracy and institutions are still under attack - another 4 years of Trump would likely end up with a reversal of Roe v. Wade, further attack on healthcare, future erosion of Affirmative Action, and any liberal policy that they are in favor of.

I haven’t criticized any women, nor would I based on their reluctance to pledge support to Biden due to the allegations. But since you’re clearly capable of understanding why you shouldn’t criticize minorities for their choice to not pledge support to one’s candidate of choice since you haven’t experienced walking in their shoes, then I hope that you can take that same approach to black voters.

Fair enough and I do agree with the take that the majority of black voters have about supporting Biden in the general and I try my best to understand the perspective of black voters who didn't vote for Bernie in the primary.

Look, we're touching on an interesting question. Can you have solidarity with a group and think that they can make the wrong call politically. I'd say yes.

I'm no nationalist but I do live in this country called America and I want what is best for Americans. Americans, the majority politically active Americans at least, made the wrong call about the War in Iraq. I was among them. We have hegemonic narratives, driven by capital, a force explicitly in opposition to all workers and ultimately all people, and those narratives seek to set the contours of the debate and redefine groups' perception of what they interests are and what they best path forward is to advance them.

I appreciate that it is a tough call for marginalized people because a fundamentally conservative Democratic Party (not to be confused with a fundamentally reactionary GOP) will do little or nothing to make your community less marginalized. At the same time, the reactionary GOP sits poised to threaten to undo what progress had been made. It's a tough call and I appreciate the dilemma for marginalized people.

I would say that what really put Biden over the top were affluent whites who don't want their taxes to go up or they fear their kids' college education will be devalued by tuition free college or they hold stock in health insurance companies or they are upper managers who find that labor precarity helps them deliver higher profits for their firm. I can put myself in the shoes of affluent whites and the ones who were anybody but Bernie and choose Biden, by default, they want you dead.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Plenty of women, especially SA survivors and women of color would disagree with your assessment of Biden and the overall utility of the Democratic Party as a vehicle for change.

Now we know that in a game of oppression Olympics you beat me, I check every box for privileged. At the same time, they are plenty of leftists who see Biden and the Democratic Party as unfavorable as I see them and in many cases their assessment is more severe than mine. Many of those people have backgrounds and circumstances that make them even more vulnerable to bad or malicious governance than a cishet, high earning black man; and yet, they see voting blue no matter who as a self destructive act.

I didn't vote for Biden in the primary, and I never made that specific argument for Biden. I am saying there are people with whose motivations to vote for Biden is to ensure that a ****ing white supremacist doesn't get another term. And Bernie clearly showed he couldn't get the job done. Yet because these people didn't vote for Bernie ****ing Sanders, your *** thinks you can make such an asinine claim as saying they are on the side of barbarism.

You don't know **** about my views about the using the Democratic Party as a vessel for change beyond what you strawman. I can tell you the same thing a million times, and you will still peddle some try to put some other nonsense on me. As I said, you are so far up your own *** you don't even hear what people are saying.

First off, **** off with this oppression Olympics bull****. You complain about ****ty affluent and/or white people so much, yet you mirror their fragility so often. Out of one side of your mouth, you want to use the suffering of some Sanders supporters as a springboard to attack people. Out of the next side of your mouth, you are flippant about someone that has shared facts about their life like they almost being killed by the police. The lack of self-awareness is impressive.

Not only are you on paper privileged, but in practice, you try your damnedest to assert that privileged over and over. As a libertarian and now a socialist, you demand that you have the right to exercise that privilege to talk down on anyone that disagrees with your specific theory of change, and that you have the right to make asinine hot takes about the the black community. So please, I am not coming at for just being an affluent white man, I am coming at you because you routinely talk down on people from a place of privilege and suggest that because you didn't get your way in the primary that you would take some pleasure in Trump getting four more years partly because you know that you will not bear the brunt of it the carnage to come. Your *** love to erase race from your analysis to make your arguments work, and always have to backpedal when someone makes it salient.

It is so laughable that a couple of days ago, you complain about Biden using black people as a cudgel to attack leftist when that is pretty much the same shtick you do, but using other Sanders supporters. You read some books and stopped being a scumbag, but you haven't ever faced any kind of oppression, so you use other people's situations a shield to hide behind to jab at others.

And now since you seem frustrated that I am calling out your privilege and petulance, your comeback is telling me that some other Sanders supporters (of course not you), come from groups that face marginalization I have not (funny how much you have warmed up to identity politics) would disagree with my politics. Ok, Rex, there are some people that disagree with me, cool, they can do them. But while I think it is a horrible mistake to sit out this election, and not vote for the Democratic candidate unless they vote for a racist piece of **** like Trump, in hopes he oppresses others, I would not say something like they are on the side of barbarism. That is a high horse I would not climb aboard.

It is funny how you didn't have an issue with my "vote blue not matter what" stance when you thought Bernie was gonna win.

If you want to draw a parallel between you and me, please quote me making condescending hot takes about poor people and members of the transgender community not understanding their oppression to show that I have engaged in anywhere the same level of buffoonery as you. Please, do that, but if you can't sit all the way the **** down with is pitiful attempt to act like it goes both ways.

And if you want to know why socialism has not gain traction in the black community, it is partly because of ************* that sound just like you.

 

[lightweight champion]

I swear to god, and I may be totally mistaken, but didn't Dirtylicious say "oppression olympics" in the context that different marginalized groups shouldn't compete over who is singularly the most marginalized and therefore whose insights into strategy for emancipation is categorically better.

It’s a possibility he uttered those words. But from everything we’ve all gathered over the years, we know this about Dirty...he’s a big guy.

 

[rexanglorum]

The margin between Biden and Trump is fewer people dying and the margin between Bernie and Biden was even fewer people dying. You seemed to take a bit of delight in Bernie losing because you saw him catering to people (poor conservative whites) whose politics were anathema to your survival and well being. You ended up supporting Sanders after Warren left because you saw him as the best option left.

That's the case for me with Biden, I'll support him because he's the best option left. I still have a right to criticize him and the Party, writ large, for disproportionately catering to people (high income, "moderate" suburban whites) whose politics is anathema to the survival and thriving of most of humanity.

As far as barbarism is concerned, some people are actively pushing it, Republicans, for instance. Others are trying to ward off even more immediate threats but tragically, it trying to maintain this dysfunctional, murderous, planet killing political system, you end up helping to uphold it and in a much shorter time than you might think, climate crisis will exacerbate inequalities and heighten the existing degree of barbarism and we know who will be disproportionately harmed and destroyed by it. Affluent people can ride out four more years of Trump but they can also last longer in a world with deepening climate crisis and barbarism. Although I would prefer not to test either prediction.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I swear to god, and I may be totally mistaken, but didn't Dirtylicious say "oppression olympics" in the context that different marginalized groups shouldn't compete over who is singularly the most marginalized and therefore whose insights into strategy for emancipation is categorically better.

Did I say because I am black and personally dealt with marginalization that I am more right

Or I'm I saying that you should realize that the marginalization people face motivate their actions in unique ways. So you can't paint with a wide brush

I am calling out your behavior and rhetoric now. Not just blindly trying to dismiss you because you are white and affluent.

You are so in a rush to be condescending you didn't bother take the time to consider my argument.

 

[stuntman mike]

there’s that pesky echo chamber again

 

[RustyShackleford]

The margin between Biden and Trump is fewer people dying and the margin between Bernie and Biden was even fewer people dying. You seemed to take a bit of delight in Bernie losing because you saw him catering to people (poor conservative whites) whose politics were anathema to your survival and well being. You ended up supporting Sanders after Warren left because you saw him as the best option left.

That's the case for me with Biden, I'll support him because he's the best option left. I still have a right to criticize him and the Party, writ large, for disproportionately catering to people (high income, "moderate" suburban whites) whose politics is anathema to the survival and thriving of most of humanity.

As far as barbarism is concerned, some people are actively pushing it, Republicans, for instance. Others are trying to ward off even more immediate threats but tragically, it trying to maintain this dysfunctional, murderous, planet killing political system, you end up helping to uphold it and in a much shorter time than you might think, climate crisis will exacerbate inequalities and heighten the existing degree of barbarism and we know who will be disproportionately harmed and destroyed by it. Affluent people can ride out four more years of Trump but they can also last longer in a world with deepening climate crisis and barbarism. Although I would prefer not to test either prediction.

I said was bitterness from the party lingers. It celary does.

You answered that with saying you would take pleasure in seeing Amash play spoiler knowing what will mean for people you swear you care most about.

And I called out behavior, because it clearly comes from a place or privilege to say such a thing. Also it is behavior you have agreed is problematic and said you would not indulge in. It strips a **** load of context, nuance, and detail to act like the difference between Biden and Trump,and Biden and Sanders are the same. Furthermore, it hand waves a ton of **** to act like my action to Warren losing and having to go with Bernie is the same as the buffoonery you have engaged in since Bernie flamed out.

I'm am not buying this "it goes both ways" ****.

Then you went on to act like it is your right to be an a-hole, while simultaneously complaining about discourse from others.

You have the right to have your opinion. You don't have a right to do unchallenged, or engage in hypocrisy and petulance. You want the privilege to do so, but I am not going along with it.

 

[rexanglorum]

Did I say because I am black and personally dealt with marginalization that I am more right

Or I'm I saying that you should realize that the marginalization people face motivate their actions in unique ways. So you can't paint with a wide brush

I am calling out your behavior and rhetoric now. Not just blindly trying to dismiss you because you are white and affluent.

You are so in a rush to be condescending you didn't bother take the time to consider my argument.

I take objection with the idea that not voting for Biden or even voting for Biden but doing so without sufficient cheer must necessarily come from a position of privilege. That's the consensus here and the argument makes sense. Then I talk with my comrades and get told that voting for Biden comes from a place of privilege.

I some times do rhetorical flourishes that, in retrospect could have conveyed my point in a less antagonist way, I apologize for that. I feel that I do listen to the arguments made here and I push back on behalf of my very marginalized comrades whose perspective, which come from anti privilege, reach pretty different conclusions and conclusions which are more cynical and defiant than mine.

I don't accuse you of being anti poor or transgendered, so I won't waste anytime trying to find quotes of you making statements of that nature. You do offer defenses for liberals, who are much more centrist, than yourself and in that case, I feel obliged to point out that lots of Biden supporters, lots of liberals, do think that poor people are poor because they are lazy and they do think that transfolx are weirdos whose demands for access to public restrooms cost "us" the 2016 election.

Also, while I don't believe unconditionally that the ends universally justify the means, there is an appreciable difference between forcefully arguing against against minimum wage, for example versus arguing for labor militancy. There's a difference between "no black liberals are wrong, we do need to send the army into Chicago" versus "no black liberals are wrong, marxist principles apply to black workers too." I'm not an aesthetic revolutionary so I'm cool with "bourgeois" manners but if our discussions here made a material difference and I was given the choice of being rude but stopping or even delaying climate crisis and its attendant barbarism, I'd be rude. Although I suspect that given those rules, most of us here choose be rude and save lives.

 

[Belgium]

Belgium , to answer your earlier question about the allegations against Biden --

I'm a pragmatist and think utilitarianism isn't a bad way to go, which is why I care more about what an elected official will do rather than something they said or did 30 years ago. But also, I think sexual abuse is reprehensible.

Given that, I'm being a pragmatist here. Currently I'm 50-50 about the current allegations against Biden. I think something happened, but I don't know how far it actually went. There's a spectrum from awkward interaction on one end to truly horrible things on the other end.

But here's the determination I'm making: not whether Biden was guilty, but whether I think it's possible that all of Biden's transgressions surpass those of Donald Trump. That's part one of the equation. Part two is how much good and how much bad would each do in office over the next four years. Based on that, it's pretty clear cut and, sad to say, I don't really care about the allegations in terms of my vote. Donald J Trump all the way!

I do think Tara Reade should get her chance to speak, she should be shown respect, and we shouldn't brush aside such things. The same should go for all of Trump's accusers and victims. Biden didn't have the foresight to pay off Reade and get her to sign an NDA when he had the chance. That seems like a pretty ****ty reason to vote for Trump instead or -- just as bad -- to not vote at all.

If I were to put myself in your shoes I think I would make the same determination. After all in this election, both candidates are plagued by a sexual assault allegation so there’s no way around confronting it. Trump not only faces far more of those but more severe ones as well. Trump also admitted to predatory behavior such as when he and Ivanka conceded that Trump would ‘inspect the goods’ by walking in on naked teens at his miss universe pageants.
Thus if I were to judge based on likelihood, my determination would be that Trump outweighs Biden in this aspect.

I do think the Reade case is exposing a lot of hypocrisy by high profile Democrats, unsurprisingly. See last paragraph.

I’ve previously analyzed Reade’s allegation in this thread and laid out the inculpatory and exculpatory factors I found.
Since then, a former neighbor of Reade claims she was told of the allegation around 2 years after the time it allegedly happened. That neighbor went on the record and said she will still be voting for Biden.
A coworker went on the record as well with a contemporaneous recollection of the incident.

I think there are significant holes in Reade’s story that I’ve previously explained but after these two new corroborations, it certainly looks more likely to be true than not to me.

I would also say that Reade’s allegation currently has more corroboration than Christine Blasey-Ford’s Kavanaugh allegation had. I have more confidence that Blasey-Ford was more likely than Kavanaugh to be truthful but that was mainly based on her sworn testimony. That decision to testify publicly under oath took an incredible amount of guts on her part and drastically increased her credibility. Kavanaugh didn’t handle his testimony well in my view so he largely lost credibility points there.

 

[rexanglorum]

Mother****er all I said was bitterness from the party lingers. It celary does.

You answered that with saying you would take pleasure in seeing Amash play spoiler knowing what will mean for people you swear you care most about.

And I called out behavior, because it clearly comes from a place or privilege to say such a thing. Also it is behavior you have agreed is problematic and said you would not indulge in. It strips a **** load of context, nuance, and detail to act like the difference between Biden and Trump,and Biden and Sanders are the same. Furthermore, it hand waves a ton of **** to act like my action to Warren losing and having to go with Bernie is the same as the buffoonery you have engaged in since Bernie flamed out.

I'm am not buying this "it goes both ways" ****.

Then you went on to act like it is your right to be an a-hole, while simultaneously complaining about discourse from others.

You have the right to have your opinion. You don't have a right to do unchallenged, or engage in hypocrisy and petulance. You want the privilege to do so, but I am not going along with it.

There are material reasons for that bitterness, which is really a result of despair. we have a looming crisis that requires communism or at least robust social democracy and the fact that the majority of the voters in our nominally "left" Party rejected a mild Social Democrat, that doesn't bode well for all of us. Sure, Bernie's campaign had flaws but the fact that Biden's capitalism wasn't categorically disqualifying is, under these circumstances, a death sentence.

If I, on the way out, take pleasure in seeing centrists grandees embarrassed, so what, we are basically already dead.

And yes, someone please post a gif of Barney Gumble's short film.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I take objection with the idea that not voting for Biden or even voting for Biden but doing so without sufficient cheer must necessarily come from a position of privilege. That's the consensus here and the argument makes sense. Then I talk with my comrades and get told that voting for Biden comes from a place of privilege.

I some times do rhetorical flourishes that, in retrospect could have conveyed my point in a less antagonist way, I apologize for that. I feel that I do listen to the arguments made here and I push back on behalf of my very marginalized comrades whose perspective, which come from anti privilege, reach pretty different conclusions and conclusions which are more cynical and defiant than mine.

I don't accuse you of being anti poor or transgendered, so I won't waste anytime trying to find quotes of you making statements of that nature. You do offer defenses for liberals, who are much more centrist, than yourself and in that case, I feel obliged to point out that lots of Biden supporters, lots of liberals, do think that poor people are poor because they are lazy and they do think that transfolx are weirdos whose demands for access to public restrooms cost "us" the 2016 election.

Also, while I don't believe unconditionally that the ends universally justify the means, there is an appreciable difference between forcefully arguing against against minimum wage, for example versus arguing for labor militancy. There's a difference between "no black liberals are wrong, we do need to send the army into Chicago" versus "no black liberals are wrong, marxist principles apply to black workers too." I'm not an aesthetic revolutionary so I'm cool with "bourgeois" manners but if our discussions here made a material difference and I was given the choice of being rude but stopping or even delaying climate crisis and its attendant barbarism, I'd be rude. Although I suspect that given those rules, most of us here choose be rude and save lives.

I didn't argue that being pissed about having to vote for Biden comes from a place of privilege. I said taking pleasure in Amash playing spoiler, allowing Trump to win, comes from a place of privilege. You have routinely made these post over the years about hoping and looking forward to the worst happening if the Dems, and their voters, if they don't nominate Sanders. That is what I singled out as privilege. It is also privilege to complain about discourse one second, when act you have the right to be an ******* the next.

-The Biden voters I was defending were Southern black voters, I clearly stated that. Yes those voters are right of me but these voters don't mostly fit with the **** you pointed out. However they are voters you have made asinine hot takes about. I mention one group but for some reason you want to point out some other group of ****** Biden voters. That it hypocritical of your because even when people in where took their time to single of specific Sanders supporters bad behavior, you were always there pushing back against it taking about most Sanders supporters are not that way. Yet you refuses to talk about others in the same manner your demand people talk about your group.

If you are concerned about nuance now, for me to understand where you are coming from, how about before you want to throw shade, you consider the nuances of the different motivations of voters before you claim they are on the side of barbarism. Just a thought.

 

[cosmiccoffee9]

is it at least fair to say that we no longer have time for incremental change?

that video of human beings--stricken with disease and homelessness--using the main public transit system as a primary residence during a pandemic in a city that is both capital of global trade and the plague´s epicenter.

it will stick with me until the day I die, and I pray that´s no time soon.

2030 could look all types of crazy if nothing substantial about this ****** up society is addressed...hell, 2022.

 

[RustyShackleford]

There are material reasons for that bitterness, which is really a result of despair. we have a looming crisis that requires communism or at least robust social democracy and the fact that the majority of the voters in our nominally "left" Party rejected a mild Social Democrat, that doesn't bode well for all of us. Sure, Bernie's campaign had flaws but the fact that Biden's capitalism wasn't categorically disqualifying is, under these circumstances, a death sentence.

If I, on the way out, take pleasure in seeing centrists grandees embarrassed, so what, we are basically already dead.

And yes, someone please post a gif of Barney Gumble's short film.

Cool

So you are cancelling your family's health insurance if the GOP succeeds in destroying the ACA

You are gonna send you children into the El Paso desert to live in a cage.

You gonna poison your family's drinking water a little more too

Since nothing makes a difference.

Right?

Stop using climate change, and the destruction it will cause mostly future generations as a reason to be flippant about suffering you don't have to endure.

 

[rexanglorum]

Cool

So you are cancelling your family's health insurance if the GOP succeeds in destroying the ACA

You are gonna send you children into the El Paso desert to live in a cage.

You gonna poison your family's drinking water a little more too

Since nothing makes a difference.

Right?

Stop using climate change, and the destruction it will cause mostly future generations as a reason to be flippant about suffering you don't have to endure.

Biden is death but he's death in a hospital with morphine. Trump is death but it's an agonizing death in the desert. Bernie was the experimental treatment that probably wouldn't save us but gave us some hope.

Look, you don't like defending positions you yourself don't take, don't make me defend Bernie or bust. I won't make my comrades' arguments for them because I wouldn't do it as well as they do but suffice to say, there are many counter arguments that hold that Biden's victory could so thoroughly demobilize the liberal left and so thoroughly make the routine, white supremacy shaped violence of the American state even more politically palatable that combined with escalating climate crisis a Biden administration could lead to more kids in cages, more people effectively without access to healthcare compared to a Trump administration checked by Liberal institutions and liberal voters and activists.

A lot of people with no privilege and a deep of understanding of black and/or liberal and/or progressive pro Biden arguments and say "hell no" to Joe Biden's calls to just get "back to normal" and they believe that either the winner of the 2020 election is immaterial or that Biden's presidency would be more destructive than Trumps'. Now you can look at that assessment and you have two choices, 1.) agree with my Latinx and trans comrades and announce that you're not voting for Biden OR 2.) express your sympathy and solidarity but stick to your belief on which tactic is best and tell the trans and Latinx never Biden voters, with whom you share a very similar set of values, that on this matter, they are wrong and their choices will tragically stifle their political goals.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Biden is death but he's death in a hospital with morphine. Trump is death but it's an agonizing death in the desert. Bernie was the experimental treatment that probably wouldn't save us but gave us some hope.

Look, you don't like defending positions you yourself don't take, don't make me defend Bernie or bust. I won't make my comrades' arguments for them because I wouldn't do it as well as they do but suffice to say, there are many counter arguments that hold that Biden's victory could so thoroughly demobilize the liberal left and so thoroughly make the routine, white supremacy shaped violence of the American state even more politically palatable that combined with escalating climate crisis a Biden administration could lead to more kids in cages, more people effectively without access to healthcare compared to a Trump administration checked by Liberal institutions and liberal voters and activists.

A lot of people with no privilege and a deep of understanding of black and/or liberal and/or progressive pro Biden arguments and say "hell no" to Joe Biden's calls to just get "back to normal" and they believe that either the winner of the 2020 election is immaterial or that Biden's presidency would be more destructive than Trumps'. Now you can look at that assessment and you have two choices, 1.) agree with my Latinx and trans comrades and announce that you're not voting for Biden OR 2.) express your sympathy and solidarity but stick to your belief on which tactic is best and tell the trans and Latinx never Biden voters, with whom you share a very similar set of values, that on this matter, they are wrong and their choices will tragically stifle their political goals.

I didn't ask you to defend Bernie or bust. I am directly taking issue with statements you have made, that is, taking pleasure in seeing the Dems lose in the fall. You can claim you don't want that, but you clearly state you would take pleasure in seeing Amash play spoiler. So I am taking issue with something you said, not putting someone's else's nonsense at your feet.

Your argument is based on a couple bad assumptions. First a Sanders presidency and Biden presidency would be very similar because legislation depends on what the marginal vote in the Senate and House will tolerate, not the policy wishes of the President. Biden and Bernie would pass pretty much the same healthcare and climate policy. The main differences are going to be with staffing, and executive orders (which there is limited power for there to be that big a difference anyway), and foreign policy (on paper they are very different, in practice I don't this the gulf between the two will be as great, they both will probably be ****)

For you to make the argument there is going to be this big difference between Bernie's world, and Biden's world, then you would have to compare platforms; to see what they view as the end for America. Not just cherry pick rhetoric. But when you do so your objection about Biden just wanting to revert thing back to a time before Trump falls apart. If we pass Biden's entire platform it would represent a massive positive change for the lives on most Americans. Maybe not as much as you or Sanders would like, but it definitely not enforcing the status quo.

So please don't insult my intelligence.

I am gonna ignore the entire last paragraph, because given you behavior since the last election, in recent weeks, and tonight, I don't believe at all that paragraph is written in good faith.