***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[rexanglorum]

No one came close to saying this. So spare me

No one said you didn't criticized white supremacy or secretly racist. But some of the **** you guys say, many of the left say, leads me and many others to believe that you have not truly grappled with how powerful of a force white supremacy is in America, and that it can live in harmony along side far left economic policies.

Too many use the fact they identify socialist/marxist/leftist as reason to dismiss anyone that points out problematic dynamics within the coalition.

Also Marxist, you included, insinuate nefarious motives all the damn time. It is only when called out do you measure and walk **** back.

We have been down this road before, I have no interest is going down it tonight

I insinuate nefarious motives when we have politicians, political parties and companies who act nefariously and rig our economy and political system to the point that we get to decide, quite literally, between a president who wants to shoot dissenters in the face or shoot dissenters in the leg.

I don't think you're nefarious but I do think you're wrong to act like a few podcasters and college kids, who have reductionists view, do damage any where near the scale of the damage done by out aesthetically "woke" ruling class.

 

[rexanglorum]

It was.



I'm glad you reject the concept of "accelerationism."

I say that without irony, in case you're concerned. My comments are directed at class-reductionists.


You're misunderstanding the quote. He's saying 0/1, meaning "you're wrong," he doesn't identify as a Trump supporter...

I wasn't in that thread so I'm relying on your account of what happened.


More to the point, what percentage of Marxists do you think are class reductionist and what percentage to do you think are sympathetic to white supremacy?

 

[DLF]

Thoughts? I'll give mine below.




WEAK. What a weak statement. This is why George W Bush is a LOSER. Why is he trying to make peace? NO. You have to DO-MI-NATE. You have to destroy. You have to burn. You have to show them who is the boss.

This is not a time for discussion or discourse. It is a time for disruption and destruction. We have to DESTROY the libs. Send them a message that, in this country, speaking out will NEVER be tolerated, unless you are speaking out about beach access or getting a haircut. No American should have to go 3 months without a haircut. That is the real injustice in America right now.

George needs to know his place. It is DISRESPECTFUL and OUT OF LINE for him to imply that an American president is not doing a SUPERJOB. And not one mention about how handsome Donald J Trump looked yesterday holding up that Bible? George Bush? NAH. More like, George Soros's Puppet.

This the truth man

have to kill all hope. Remember when General Snow let Katniss Eberdeen gain momentum, what did that lead to? The fall of districts and eventual fall of the utopian society he had built. Time to crush the libs. With a bible in one hand and rpg in another while riding a horse, the messiah shall prevail. Save us for we have sinned oh great one we bow down to you

 

[IATT]

 

[whywesteppin]

This the truth man

have to kill all hope. Remember when General Snow let Katniss Eberdeen gain momentum, what did that lead to? The fall of districts and eventual fall of the utopian society he had built. Time to crush the libs. With a bible in one hand and rpg in another while riding a horse, the messiah shall prevail. Save us for we have sinned oh great one we bow down to you

No, but I remember when Jon Snow tried to make peace with the Wildlings and soon after ended up

Spoiler

dead

 

[hipstermike]

This will all be worse with the current hurricane predictions this season, ramping up to Katrina indicators

 

[IATT]

dwalk31

 

[IATT]

 

[mplsdunk]

why would that make you go home?

just get your lasers and fireworks. They’ll leave.

 

[IATT]

 

[Sharpshoeter13]

maaan, dude’s been doing this **** for a long *** time.

 

[MVP]

 

[Nike Jordan]

Speaking of Law & Order...

 

[boris]

It's a crazy time when George Bush and Pat Robertson sound sane.

 

[rexanglorum]

It strikes me as odd that the opposition to socialism is that by abolishing one hierarchy, capitalism, you cannot guarantee that it will abolish another hierarchy, white supremacy. So the solution is to not abolish capitalism and instead plead with it to diminish the severity of capitalist and white supremacist hierarchies.

Now RustyShackleford I know that you have a skeptical view of Marxism. That's too bad. Liberation from the bonds of capitalism is necessary though not a sufficient precondition for ending white supremacy.

For those who are open to Marxism but concerned that it is maniacally focused on class at the exclusion of race, please consider that Marx and his cothinker Engels, analyzed and remarked among the inseparability of capitalism from the enslavement and subsequent exploitation of Africans and the domestic exploitation of the unwaged labor of women, respectively. Marx died in 1881 and thinkers and practitioners of Marx has added and enriched and expounded upon his insights to this day. Many of the most notable of these people were leaders of anti colonial movements in the global South and the Black Panthers right here in our own country, hardly a roster of affluent white men hell bent on laundering white supremacy.


Lastly, Methodical Management I have to be honest. Every interaction we've had since I started to support Bernie and voice support for abolishing economic power structures boils down to you throwing out a back handed "you're pretty not class reductionist, for a Marxist." You were cool when I rejected white supremacy, an ideology which I tolerated for far too long in my life, to be sure. Yet when I later on started to wholesale reject capitalism, that was too far.

I'm a Marxist and a socialist and that makes me part of a community which I'm proud of. Like all communities, we have our problems and we have people in our community whose own personal conduct and world views are not always exemplary. But it feels offensive having to be told that our belief system is invalid because each and every member of our community is not perfect in every facet. believe me, we hate the red scare pod more than you do because their awful racial, gender and even body politics has probably scared off people who are on the fence about moving from liberalism over to leftism.

Now you are one of if not the most passionate and sharp advocates for social justice that I have come across and surely you know that if whites supremacy is to be abolished and the wounds that it has caused are to be healed, there can be no sanctity of private property. Concentrated capital must be broken up. In order to achieve such an end, it will require radicals, radicals in theory and in practice. It will require working with people whose politics are not ideal in every way but who share the resolve that hierarchies have now have to go. Typically, though tragically not always, people who categorically oppose one sort of hierarchy are relatively easy to convince that they should *** other hierarchies to their list of hierarchies to be abolished.

Even if you may not be a Marxist or a socialist or an anarchist, the sort of reforms that I know you want will require people who are more radical, on economics and political theory, than you or I might be. Consider the fact that we, for all intents and purposes, do not live in a democracy and it becomes even clearer that our political fates are bound up at this point.

So to you and RustyShackleford please don't forget who the biggest enemy is and don't let me forget it either.

 

[whywesteppin]

STEVE KING IS LOSING TONIGHT

THERE IS HOPE FOR AMERICA

 

[whywesteppin]

Steve King is widely recognized as the most racist and most vile [former] member of Congress. He has lost today in his primary in Iowa.

He is so racist that he would not endorse Coal Gang because "coal is black."

**** him.

 

[elpablo21]

 

[gry60]

dwalk31

I can relate. Sadly.

 

[whywesteppin]

just to be clear though, that is not a blackhawk.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I insinuate nefarious motives when we have politicians, political parties and companies who act nefariously and rig our economy and political system to the point that we get to decide, quite literally, between a president who wants to shoot dissenters in the face or shoot dissenters in the leg.

I don't think you're nefarious but I do think you're wrong to act like a few podcasters and college kids, who have reductionists view, do damage any where near the scale of the damage done by out aesthetically "woke" ruling class.

-You have not measured your insinuations and assertions of nefarious motives that well. Let us get serious now.

-Did I did not say anything about socialist being more dangerous, or doing more damage than anyone else. I don't know how me pointing about problematic behavior all of a sudden turns into me acting one group are worst actors than another. And if one group is so destructive, why would just saying "I'm better than that" be sufficient.

You are acting like just because I say that leftists have a blind spot on race or are condescending on the subject at times, or their analysis lacking, that I am calling them you all class reductionist, or worse racist. It is like you need to frame my argument in this way so you can take issue with it. To act like someone is being unfair to your group. Dude, all I am saying that even if someone means well, even if they are mostly a good actors, that can believe and do problematic ****. Not as problematic as other groups, but still problematic.

Like my original claim was not that socialist are secretly racist, it is that they view the problem of white supremacy as subordinate to class issues. Not that don't care at all, but that they argue that the ills of capitalism are the bigger issue. So my problem is not only with the class reductionist that says "it is not about race/white supremacy it is about class," but also the people that say "race/white supremacy is definitely involved, but people give it too much weight." The former group is a minority in the leftist movement, but the latter group is quite large IMO. Even worse, people that expand on those positions to dismiss "identity politics," "diversity," "representation," and "wokeness" as liberal distractions to the real cause. Instead of thinking about how those things can help further the fight for economic and social justice. Like the views of the ****tiest white liberal are ascribed to every left-leaning non-leftist person.

Wokeness to you might mean something ****ty liberals do to distract from the cruelty of neoliberal capitalism (I think that is fair characterization given many of your post), so it is a net negative. Wokeness to me, especially how I got introduced to the term as a teenager, was people realizing the injustices that people of color face (more specifically black people), so to me, it is a net positive. This is a small example of the blind spots I am talking about—the unintentional condescending take. But there are many others.

I am not saying most people that want socialism want it because they think white supremacy is part of the deal. I am saying that socialist in general don't think long and hard enough about how white supremacy (something they are against) and transform itself to live comfortably along with side socialism, if America were ever to become a socialist country. Also, if America were able to get there, if the political coalition socialist built, on the worker solidarity foundation they built it on, would be willing and able to defeat it. I am skeptical it would be.

I am not calling leftist secret racist, not saying most are sympathetic to white supremacy. But as a black man, often I am taken aback at how a group (who is disportionately white) who claim to be such great allies, who ask they take a leap of faith on them, who ask me to accept the same ****ty compromise of putting the concerns of moderate white people first and foremost (albeit a different group of moderate whites than white liberals ask), don't think they as a whole can do a little better. But are instead ascribe ****ty arguments to anyone making a criticism to deem it unfair, and insist on pushing back on arguments they think people are making instead of what they are actually saying

But whatever, man. You do you.

 

[elpablo21]

 

[Based Jesus]

It's like they're trying to piss people off in NYC. Growing up as a kid going to school in Harlem you knew that 96th was the line between the haves and the have-nots. You could stand on the north end of the street and look behind you to see the ghetto and then look to the south side and see a completely different city, almost devoid of people that looked like you. They might as well have drawn a red line down the middle of the street. What this says to all NYers is what we already knew, that the NYPD only cares about the protection of white property and lives.

 

[RustyShackleford]

It strikes me as odd that the opposition to socialism is that by abolishing one hierarchy, capitalism, you cannot guarantee that it will abolish another hierarchy, white supremacy. So the solution is to not abolish capitalism and instead plead with it to diminish the severity of capitalist and white supremacist hierarchies.

Now RustyShackleford I know that you have a skeptical view of Marxism. That's too bad. Liberation from the bonds of capitalism is necessary though not a sufficient precondition for ending white supremacy.

For those who are open to Marxism but concerned that it is maniacally focused on class at the exclusion of race, please consider that Marx and his cothinker Engels, analyzed and remarked among the inseparability of capitalism from the enslavement and subsequent exploitation of Africans and the domestic exploitation of the unwaged labor of women, respectively. Marx died in 1881 and thinkers and practitioners of Marx has added and enriched and expounded upon his insights to this day. Many of the most notable of these people were leaders of anti colonial movements in the global South and the Black Panthers right here in our own country, hardly a roster of affluent white men hell bent on laundering white supremacy.


Lastly, Methodical Management I have to be honest. Every interaction we've had since I started to support Bernie and voice support for abolishing economic power structures boils down to you throwing out a back handed "you're pretty not class reductionist, for a Marxist." You were cool when I rejected white supremacy, an ideology which I tolerated for far too long in my life, to be sure. Yet when I later on started to wholesale reject capitalism, that was too far.

I'm a Marxist and a socialist and that makes me part of a community which I'm proud of. Like all communities, we have our problems and we have people in our community whose own personal conduct and world views are not always exemplary. But it feels offensive having to be told that our belief system is invalid because each and every member of our community is not perfect in every facet. believe me, we hate the red scare pod more than you do because their awful racial, gender and even body politics has probably scared off people who are on the fence about moving from liberalism over to leftism.

Now you are one of if not the most passionate and sharp advocates for social justice that I have come across and surely you know that if whites supremacy is to be abolished and the wounds that it has caused are to be healed, there can be no sanctity of private property. Concentrated capital must be broken up. In order to achieve such an end, it will require radicals, radicals in theory and in practice. It will require working with people whose politics are not ideal in every way but who share the resolve that hierarchies have now have to go. Typically, though tragically not always, people who categorically oppose one sort of hierarchy are relatively easy to convince that they should *** other hierarchies to their list of hierarchies to be abolished.

Even if you may not be a Marxist or a socialist or an anarchist, the sort of reforms that I know you want will require people who are more radical, on economics and political theory, than you or I might be. Consider the fact that we, for all intents and purposes, do not live in a democracy and it becomes even clearer that our political fates are bound up at this point.

So to you and RustyShackleford please don't forget who the biggest enemy is and don't let me forget it either.

 

[Based Jesus]

Yikes smh