Serious Open Discussion on Nike Circa #NT 2007

[bence23]

It went from having the yearly model to having the new weekly release. Keeping up with the Jones's. Nike has us caught in a web of materialism and consumerism. I'm getting older. Slowly trying to free myself.

 

[picknroll24]

From a business perspective you have to admire what Nike has done. They own various aspects of the footwear industry and I do not see that changing anytime soon as long as sports and fitness are a part of American society. All of these limited releases that no one can get their hands on and "hype" help position the brand at the top of consumers minds and as we can see on these boards people are unwilling to try different brands. It is no secret among serious runners that there are better running shoes in the market but to the general consumer with little footwear knowledge Nike is all they know. Until other brands develop better products and effectively market them, Nike is going to stay on top and nothing will change. I also feel that the company has improved on knowing what consumers want, recently there have been less failures like the AF 25, Air Max 360 BB, and so forth they have done a good job of forecasting sales and modifying production to meet those numbers.

 

[nikedealer]

Originally Posted by vood99

Originally Posted by secretzofwar

Originally Posted by NikeDealer


Bruh.. I really could... but Im shocked there are more folks chiming in.. but then again I guess it was to be expected....
As for Nike being its own worst enemy.. I'd agee to an extent... but they always pitch new tech as next best thing and change the original as a bastardaziation.

Instead they could always pitch adding additional tech which will be an option instead of it disappearing in a year.

This. 
An HoH is somewhat of a failed concept, IMO. Only products selling are the limited stuff, so it seems. I've been able to buy some of the mediocre PE's for like $50 from Nordstrom Rack because they simply don't release great ones. 

Also, Nike, why on earth is LeBron not wearing his retail models? He should be giving them some sort of special meaning i.e. Jordan. I'll never be able to buy the shoes he wore last night.

Rock spoke into this a great deal while back. He'll probably chime in again, but it has to do with his camp dictating what gets released and what not. I feel you on him not balling in his GRs though - makes them lose a bit of charm despite their hype.

Correct.... Bron while wanting to have kicks relate and resemble Jordans in some aspects in unreleased fashion doesn't realize the kicks he plays in aren't accessible to everyone else.
Check that.. HE DOES Realize it and really doesn't care.   The sad truth is when Sportswear gets ahold of the Lebron line.. unless Lebron has it in his contract that his line remains with Nike basketball... Sportswear will gut those and they wont be the same performance shoe they once were.  BUT we will get alot of colors and fabrics which weren't released before.

 

[nikedealer]

Originally Posted by Oh YoU MaD

Originally Posted by daaznfella

I'm pretty sure the synthetic material they're now using with fuse, flywire, and materials that are strong, but light, have influenced sneakers today. adidas isn't doing it, and now nike isn't doing it as much really either. you are starting to see less and less shoes today PERIOD with leather, and more on synthetics that provide the same function and are supposed to be even stronger and more stable then old leathers could.

Please don't tell me you have fallen for the gimmicks. Cmon, plastic is much cheaper than leathers/synthetic leathers therefore nike is brainwashing you guys into thinking this new hyper/flywire/fuse garbage is superior than any shoe from the past.

Yet they haven't proved that they make you significantly faster or they can prevent injuries. Look at all the injuries caused by nike's new tech

Michael Jordan didn't need plastic sneakers to win multiple championships. Vince Carter was doing filthy and unspeakable things above the rim with 10lb foot weights. Don't fall for their gimmicks.

Well this is the fact LOST on todays player. If you are told its better you sort of believe it.  Remember the Detroit Pistons trainer suggest his players not wear the Hyperize?  As mentioned D. Rose wears the Adi Lite and has problems.... as well as a few other Adi players.. 
It cant be said enough.. shoes from just 5 and 10 years ago were good enough to win in with Synthetic Leather and Real Leather... and Plastic hasn't proved to do anything that spectacular even in some design aspects.. other than save Nike money overall.

 

[Magic33]

It's a different era

Take for instance how Foams have become the new SB. It's six months in to the year, and there's a 40 page SB topic. We get 40 pages on individual foams before they even drop now. There were only a few of us who cared about foams.

I remember when the other board was the JV team, now it's sort of morphed as members get more "hyper" and younger.

Hopefully everything will come full circle and it's a cycle. You need younger and new members to breathe more life in to the board, because it can also become stale from having the same members in every thread.

 

[columbiaxi]

Nike is also into this "green" initiative and making their product out of water bottles or whatever the hell they do

 

[wallyhopp]

I'm glad many can look through the gimmicks of Nike. A few years back a few designers were stating that synthetic suedes and leathers were not only more durable than the traditional "genuine" materials, but also lighter..... Well.... All it really took was a postal scale and two types of retros. Synthetics came in weighing something like 1 oz. less than the traditional stuff. So yes, in theory you could say synthetics are lighter.. But I would take a heavier ride that is softer and plusher, and just overall more comfortable... People can barely distinguish the 1 to 6 oz. range. So Nike is really throwing those magic words out there to brainwash us

 

[vood99]

Originally Posted by ColumbiaXI

Nike is also into this "green" initiative and making their product out of water bottles or whatever the hell they do

They call it the 'better world' campaign. It's great that they're using water based solvents/glues and recycled soles but they negate those benefits by using synthetic plastic uppers that were probably manufactured with petroleum. However the real kicker is the use of third world labour.

 

[nikedealer]

One thing I will never think is Nike isn't King Dingaling. I know it.. they know it.. most people in this thread know it... but I can speak to their inner workings and know as others they have a way of doing things.. and there's not this huge process of getting things accomplished and decided on.

Some releases are merely a few folks. Sometimes Marketing gets in the way of a good design... and sometimes those leading the design effort are held hostage by an overall initiative hendering their creativity.

Once thing I do know and have said constantly is I respect EVERY designer... no matter what folks think of their designs. Every design isnt for everyone. Its hard as hell to have to be responsible for more than 10 or so designs per few seasons let alone in a year. EVERY year. This is why DNA from previous models are utilized to give inspiration as designers can get design block just like a writer...

 

[vood99]

Originally Posted by WallyHopp

I'm glad many can look through the gimmicks of Nike. A few years back a few designers were stating that synthetic suedes and leathers were not only more durable than the traditional "genuine" materials, but also lighter..... Well.... All it really took was a postal scale and two types of retros. Synthetics came in weighing something like 1 oz. less than the traditional stuff. So yes, in theory you could say synthetics are lighter.. But I would take a heavier ride that is softer and plusher, and just overall more comfortable... People can barely distinguish the 1 to 6 oz. range. So Nike is really throwing those magic words out there to brainwash us

Marketing and marketeers - I equate that with brainwashing. They know that what they're doing presently is not really progressive. Plus a side effect of going synthetic is weight reduction so they put a huge marketing spiel on it and tout it as a great innovation.

 

[schmoosmasha45]

Rock - I was just going to mention those Hyperizes! That was a terrible shoe. Such a disapointement after the first Hyperdunk. Crappy cushioning and zero flywire support. Mine got binned after half a dozen or so wears

You have to hand it to Nike though, can think of few other businesses who have managed quarter on quarter price increases for the last year - 18 months and not suffered any perceptible fall off in business. In fact, thanks to clever marketing / hype creation and no apparent shortage of thirsty hypebeasts profits are probably up (anyone got figures?) And all of this in an economic downturn.........

 

[nikedealer]

Yes.. the one thing you will never hear me complain about is Nike's price point's.

One who has options without a gun to their head is one who needs not complain. I can say just like any other business owner, you are in the business of doing business and making money.

Vood... I used to be one even in the previously stated comment to think the least they can do is bring some jobs back to the US... BUT thats where they are located and employ thousands. Nike is no different than UA, Gucci, LV, Oakley, Adi, and a host of others that CONTRACT factories in Asia. India etc.

The point of being is business is to obtain the best possible product the consumer will accept while maintaining the highest profit margin available. If I didnt get many of the kicks I do via hook up's I know for a fact I would not purchase them with my own money. Especially knowing how much they cost to make. However if I were running Nike I would do alot of the same things even manufacturing products in Contracted Factories.

Obviously I would change a few other business practices... but I'd have my finger on the pulse moreso of certain releases and what quantities to release with certain footwear. With all that said Mark Parker is very involved with particular lines, as he was with scrapping the initial design of the Lebron VI years back and there being a change at the Design Helm.

I also think it's smart of Nike to allow designers to move from category to category designing kicks when at first I thought it was a detriment to particular lines if a designer him/herself had never played the sport.

But understanding the design and research process as well as ALL the resources designers have at their disposal I believe those who have never played the sport are forced to get a better grip on what a player needs by listening to the player. I still think certain designs fall short with the need to market false tech and scale back on materials. Forcing Hyperfuse onto everything or selling us a new tooling is old.. but if consumers keep eating it up.. why not keep selling it.

Case in point again and again. Jordan keeps selling Team Shoes with Air and EVA..... hardly any Zoom or Air Max... just 20+ year old tech in new shoes which are serving consumers well, while Nike is telling you Flywire, Lunar and such IS what is needed to get you to the next level.

None of that is what Jordan needed and Jordan's sales are showing such. In fact when Jordan Brand has a release with Flywire (Melo) Air Max it just doesn't flow well or really look like a Jordan Product... but thats just my opinion.

Again... I could go on and on... but I dont want to be the only one flooding this thread with my opinions lol

 

[secretzofwar]

Well you've got some great opinions Rock, so keep it up!

On the profitability end, a lot of people think of Nike exclusively as the shoes we all buy, but in reality, it's stuff you've never seen being sold in Portugal, the knock-off dri fit sold in Kohl's, and feeding hype machines in China. Though earnings per share have grown consistently, the company's gross margin (important retail metric) has come under pressure thanks to higher fuel/commodity costs.

That's not to say Nike isn't making a ton of money, but they aren't quite as profitable as they were a few years ago with cheap fuel and materials. That being said, as cotton and fuel prices moderate, Nike will benefit even more now that they've raised prices and have showed the ability to sell similar/more quantities at the same prices.

It will be interesting to see if resources are moved around at all with Umbro and Cole Haan being sold.

 

[nikedealer]

Yes... thats something Phil Knight and Mark Parker set as a goal some years ago and that was Nike becoming a 23 Billion dollar company.. .I honestly haven't followed to see if has been reached...

but more importantly Secret as you mentioned their Gross Cost is damn near 3/4's of their Gross Revenue creating a slim Profit Margin... but then that slim Profit Margin is in the Billions.

People dont quite realize Nike pays employee's, factories, cost of footwear, equipment, apparel, and Player Endorsements WITH Wieden and Kennedy Advertising to name a few major costs...

That aint small to say the least.

 

[secretzofwar]

They'll do it pretty easily this year it looks like.

That slim profit margin is still way better than Under Armour, but not close to Lululemon.

 

[nikedealer]

Yeah... many companies would LOVE that Profit Margin in their best year.. let alone their worst..

 

[kicksiscrack]

Refreshing topic!! I miss the days where NT was considered the "nerdy" forum, and ISS had more of the young crowd.

That was the same reason when I was a Subaru owner that I chose NASIOC over other forums.

I have always been more of a lurker/reader than a contributor (except my recent Yeezy rants), but I just wanted to give props for the change of topic!!!

Back to reading this thread...

 

[nikedealer]

Ahhh... the good ole days....

Back when threads could go pages upon pages without pics but have all sorts of in depth discussion on kicks, the business of kicks and complaining with purpose and solutions provided.

Sadly... threads like this can hit page two and three quick because the information provided is no longer the insight the youngsters need.

This too shall pass.

 

[secretzofwar]

Yes, back when NT had a true love of footwear rather than "stunting."

Found some cool pics of Mark Parker's office: http://sobadsogood.com/20...of-nike-ceo-mark-parker/

Knowing how much Nike lurks NT, I'm surprised they haven't made some products geared at us with higher price points because we actually have the money to pay for them. There isn't that much scale in footwear production anyways, so limited quantities at insane prices (talking $300+) would probably hook some of us.

 

[vood99]

Originally Posted by NikeDealer

Yes.. the one thing you will never hear me complain about is Nike's price point's.

One who has options without a gun to their head is one who needs not complain. I can say just like any other business owner, you are in the business of doing business and making money.

Vood... I used to be one even in the previously stated comment to think the least they can do is bring some jobs back to the US... BUT thats where they are located and employ thousands. Nike is no different than UA, Gucci, LV, Oakley, Adi, and a host of others that CONTRACT factories in Asia. India etc.

The point of being is business is to obtain the best possible product the consumer will accept while maintaining the highest profit margin available. If I didnt get many of the kicks I do via hook up's I know for a fact I would not purchase them with my own money. Especially knowing how much they cost to make. However if I were running Nike I would do alot of the same things even manufacturing products in Contracted Factories.

Obviously I would change a few other business practices... but I'd have my finger on the pulse moreso of certain releases and what quantities to release with certain footwear. With all that said Mark Parker is very involved with particular lines, as he was with scrapping the initial design of the Lebron VI years back and there being a change at the Design Helm.

I also think it's smart of Nike to allow designers to move from category to category designing kicks when at first I thought it was a detriment to particular lines if a designer him/herself had never played the sport.

But understanding the design and research process as well as ALL the resources designers have at their disposal I believe those who have never played the sport are forced to get a better grip on what a player needs by listening to the player. I still think certain designs fall short with the need to market false tech and scale back on materials. Forcing Hyperfuse onto everything or selling us a new tooling is old.. but if consumers keep eating it up.. why not keep selling it.

Case in point again and again. Jordan keeps selling Team Shoes with Air and EVA..... hardly any Zoom or Air Max... just 20+ year old tech in new shoes which are serving consumers well, while Nike is telling you Flywire, Lunar and such IS what is needed to get you to the next level.

None of that is what Jordan needed and Jordan's sales are showing such. In fact when Jordan Brand has a release with Flywire (Melo) Air Max it just doesn't flow well or really look like a Jordan Product... but thats just my opinion.

Again... I could go on and on... but I dont want to be the only one flooding this thread with my opinions lol

Rock I hear you re: production in the third word. How would you guys feel if Nike produced some of their super limited product in the USA though? New Balance can manufacture limited runs in the US and remain profitable - why can't Nike do the same.

Case in point, the Yeezy sneaker that retails for $300+ and resells for $1000+. Why can't Nike themselves charge $1000 and manufacture in the US?

** I just want to add that I do not like the Yeezy and I would never pay so much for any sneaker period but there are people willing to pay so much. **

 

[schmoosmasha45]

As ever u are correct guys no-one is forcing anyone to spend money on anything it does always come down to personal choice I completely agree. Also understand the rules of business and answering to shareholders and looking after the bottom line. For me the price point limits of what I'm prepared to pay for what I'm getting in return have been reached (waits for calls of cheap and broke!) - at what point do you guys reckon the mass market will start to push back?

 

[dmxfury]

It will at some point, but not while Nike is as 'trendy' as any company but Apple. But overpriced shoes with subpar quality, horrible release efforts and other factors will catch up. I think their marketing is as good as an Apple but the product isn't always that type of standard. I was saying in the LeBron thread that I am shocked how well their high priced shoes have sold, I could've sworn the downturn was finally going to move the needle in this country with materialistic goods. That individuals would not have a negative debt to savings ratio. Unfortunatley it seems I was wrong, at least with the shoe industry. Ah well, the industry will turn again and shoes will not be overhyped like they are. Quality will come back to the forefront and marketing will only be a variable to a shoes success, not the sole indicator.


Anyway, great thread, great stuff in here. If I can get off the iPad I will to type more. A few final thoughts

1- I think the performance of the plastics and other materials pales with the shoes created 95-02. I also think they don't hold up as well
2- I get disappointed when I can't get a shoe that I actually want, but refuse to pay reseller prices (or retail depending on model) until I have no student loan debt, car payment and credit card debt. I'm not going to pay 200 plus for a shoe. Especially an athletic shoe that isn't guaranteed to last years
3- I know NB doesn't manufacture all their shoes here, but respect the heck that 25% are. It's great
4- The industry could use some closer competition right now, that would help a lot of the issues discussed

 

[just4kicks212]

Originally Posted by NikeDealer


First up:  Will Nike EVER go back to the essence of Basketball Performance Shoes having Leather and not making an ultra light shoe the most important factor but making a well put together performance shoe that has stability, comfort, cushion and good looks its priority because it was once good enough?

To answer your question...... No..... At this point Nike as a COMPANY is trying to break records when it comes to profits.... Nike goal is to be a 15-18 billion dollar company by 2013-2015 (their original goal was 15Billion but they already have that broken so they up'ed it to 18 billion)... If you think about it, it all started in 2008-2009 when Lunarlon and Flywire came about... Nike was pushing the limits of a LIGHTWEIGHT shoe... They even Incorporate Flywire and Fuse Tech in clothing (if you weren't aware)... Also just look at your Nike boxes guys... They say "Considered Design" and the website nikebetterworld.com... that whole Considered Design process is a way to cut cost by using the exact amount of materials needed so that there is no waste... Nike is all about making a RIDICULOUS Profit... And now in 2012 they have just came out with a NEW Tech called "FlyKnit"...  Here is some info I pulled off the internet about it...  
Nike Flyknit features a single-engineered base that eliminates the use of glue, sewing, and cutting in its construction
NIKE has engineered knit for performance to create running footwear that features only the essentials. Employing a new technology called Nike Flyknit, yarns and fabric variations are precisely engineered only where they are needed for a featherweight, formfitting and virtually seamless upper.

With all the structure and support knitted in, the Nike Flyknit Racer’s upper and tongue weigh just 34 grams (1.2 ounces). The whole shoe weighs a mere 160g (5.6 ounces) for a size 9, which is 19% lighter than the Nike Zoom Streak 3, a shoe worn by first, second and third place athletes in the men’s marathon at the 2011 World Championships.

While reducing shoe weight is one aspect of helping runners, the Nike Flyknit upper is also engineered for a precision fit, creating a feeling of a second skin.

An additional environmentally sustainable benefit to Nike Flyknit is that it reduces waste because the one-piece upper does not use the multiple materials and material cuts used in traditional sports footwear manufacture. Nike Flyknit is truly a minimalist design with maximum return.

The computer-controlled weaving technology, which knits the entire upper part of the shoe in a single piece that’s then attached to the sole, promises to cut labor costs and production time while also increasing profit margins and opportunities for personalization. It may even bring some shoe manufacturing jobs back to the U.S. In traditional shoemaking, machines cut scores of pieces that workers must then assemble. By reducing or removing that step, the most labor-intensive part of the process is eliminated—along with the main reason for making shoes in Asia’s cheaper labor markets. “This is a complete game-changer,

 

[jaketreist]

i think what were really trying to get at here is its all fine and dandy that nike uses hyperfuse, flywire and such on their new performance shoes because thats the way the NBA is going lighter faster more explosive. but when they are retroing shoes from the 80s 90s that were made of leather we should get was originally put out we dont deserve a cheaper version

 

[dmxfury]

Definitely it's insulting to us that know how great those shoes were