The Official Anime & Manga Thread Vol: 三

[blakep267]

@ssjj. you also said " I do believe" you DONT KNOW...none of us do.
the thing is you cant even down play the fight because it was 4 kage level guys fighting in a bubble, which high level jutsus were displayed.
and what we saw was the 3rd. stop 3 people period. did he whoop them no. but did he stop thwm for whooping him and destroying konoha. yes..

Nobody is disputing what was said or what happened back in part 1. Dont be mistaken. But things have changed. Thats the point. Hashirama has been hyped up to be a god among men. And that has happened recently. So I cant take something from years ago over something that was recently shown and said

As for why Minato isnt mentioned, well we havent seen enough of his other techniques if he has any. The FTG is great and all, but if somebody like killerbee was able to anticipate it and have a sword ready at minato's belly, idk how much higher id put him over a beast like Hashirama. And also the 2nd hokage had a T/S technique as well, so that may automatically put him above minato

 

[nako xl]

^Minato himself has said "his (Obito's) time/teleportation technique rivals my own and the 2nd's."

I remember reading somewhere that Minato was the fastest ninja ever (and we saw that he's faster than Obito) but lately they've been hyping how fast the raikage and naruto are so minato's speed isn't even as awe inspiring anymore. Unless we take those recent writings to mean look how amazing and fast obito, the raikage, and naruto are and minato's STILL faster than them.

minato was a genius though, so his intelligence plus how fast he could execute plans mid battle was what made him special.

 

[blakep267]

^Minato himself has said "his (Obito's) time/teleportation technique rivals my own and the 2nd's."

I remember reading somewhere that Minato was the fastest ninja ever (and we saw that he's faster than Obito) but lately they've been hyping how fast the raikage and naruto are so minato's speed isn't even as awe inspiring anymore. Unless we take those recent writings to mean look how amazing and fast obito, the raikage, and naruto are and minato's STILL faster than them.

minato was a genius though, so his intelligence plus how fast he could execute plans mid battle was what made him special.

I think you guys are blowing the genius angel out of proportion. Most elite ninja have genius intellect. Besides Naruto and Raikage, most of the elites we've seen are pretty smart.

 

[lexlieno]

Ok, answer me this. What have we SEEN the 1st do to gain him top dog status? Honestly. The only person next to the 3rd who deserves top dog status is Nagato. He actually deserves it over everyone minus the sage. Because he's actually Alive, granted he uses zombies to
Do his bidding.

 

[Gill Baka Esq. LLC.]

Can I ask a question....where the hell is bleach this week?

 

[lexlieno]

That was my question before the debates started

 

[nako xl]

^Minato himself has said "his (Obito's) time/teleportation technique rivals my own and the 2nd's."

I remember reading somewhere that Minato was the fastest ninja ever (and we saw that he's faster than Obito) but lately they've been hyping how fast the raikage and naruto are so minato's speed isn't even as awe inspiring anymore. Unless we take those recent writings to mean look how amazing and fast obito, the raikage, and naruto are and minato's STILL faster than them.

minato was a genius though, so his intelligence plus how fast he could execute plans mid battle was what made him special.

I think you guys are blowing the genius angel out of proportion. Most elite ninja have genius intellect. Besides Naruto and Raikage, most of the elites we've seen are pretty smart.

Ehh... there's pretty smart, genius, and then just mowing over dudes with raw power.

Kisame would just steam roll everyone he saw. A large number of Akatsuki members were like that and they were beating everybody. Naruto, Raikage, and Bee are like that (and most of the chiefly taijutsu practitioners are actually.)

That's why people make a big deal that Minato didn't seem to have any kekkai genkai but would just use his speed and seals and smarts. to be THAT feared/revered and not have any particularly impressive jutsus?  To out think Tobi and Madara in an instant and foil their plans?

 

[donmega]

^Minato himself has said "his (Obito's) time/teleportation technique rivals my own and the 2nd's."


I remember reading somewhere that Minato was the fastest ninja ever (and we saw that he's faster than Obito) but lately they've been hyping how fast the raikage and naruto are so minato's speed isn't even as awe inspiring anymore. Unless we take those recent writings to mean look how amazing and fast obito, the raikage, and naruto are and minato's STILL faster than them.


minato was a genius though, so his intelligence plus how fast he could execute plans mid battle was what made him special.

I think you guys are blowing the genius angel out of proportion. Most elite ninja have genius intellect. Besides Naruto and Raikage, most of the elites we've seen are pretty smart.

Ehh... there's pretty smart, genius, and then just mowing over dudes with raw power.

Kisame would just steam roll everyone he saw. A large number of Akatsuki members were like that and they were beating everybody. Naruto, Raikage, and Bee are like that (and most of the chiefly taijutsu practitioners are actually.)

That's why people make a big deal that Minato didn't seemto have any kekkai genkai but would just use his speed and seals and smarts. to be THAT feared/revered and not have any particularly impressive jutsus?  To out think Tobi and Madara in an instant and foil their plans?

Genius

 

[lexlieno]

Ehh... there's pretty smart, genius, and then just mowing over dudes with raw power.

Kisame would just steam roll everyone he saw. A large number of Akatsuki members were like that and they were beating everybody. Naruto, Raikage, and Bee are like that (and most of the chiefly taijutsu practitioners are actually.)

That's why people make a big deal that Minato didn't seem to have any kekkai genkai but would just use his speed and seals and smarts. to be THAT feared/revered and not have any particularly impressive jutsus?  To out think Tobi and Madara in an instant and foil their plans?

I agree to a certain extent. Minato is up there mainly for ftg however his intelligence puts him in another category. When it comes to genius thats truly what seperates the normal from the greats. Ie bee understanding minatos attack. Kakashi, Tobi, itachi, and Ofcourse oro relied on genius than strength. That made them special.

 

[blakep267]

Ok, answer me this. What have we SEEN the 1st do to gain him top dog status? Honestly. The only person next to the 3rd who deserves top dog status is Nagato. He actually deserves it over everyone minus the sage. Because he's actually Alive, granted he uses zombies to
Do his bidding.

let me ask you, what has Hiruzen done that can top any of the feats weve seen madara and by extension Hashirama do.

Madara's ultimate susanno is one of the most devastating things shown. And shadow clones with full susanno's. Thats beast.
Hashirama - wood dragon, Mokuton, darkness genjutsu, poison flowers.

if were going purely by jutsu shown, Hiruzen is pretty crappy. A katon and a doton were what he threw out there. Ill give him shiki fujin, but his arsenal wasnt very impressive.


And honestly, if you think Nagato is top dog, youre clearly mistaken. Itachi ( did take him out while saving Bee and Naruto) and Naruto with the kyuubi at his disposal could take him out.

 

[blakep267]

^Minato himself has said "his (Obito's) time/teleportation technique rivals my own and the 2nd's."


I remember reading somewhere that Minato was the fastest ninja ever (and we saw that he's faster than Obito) but lately they've been hyping how fast the raikage and naruto are so minato's speed isn't even as awe inspiring anymore. Unless we take those recent writings to mean look how amazing and fast obito, the raikage, and naruto are and minato's STILL faster than them.


minato was a genius though, so his intelligence plus how fast he could execute plans mid battle was what made him special.

I think you guys are blowing the genius angel out of proportion. Most elite ninja have genius intellect. Besides Naruto and Raikage, most of the elites we've seen are pretty smart.

Ehh... there's pretty smart, genius, and then just mowing over dudes with raw power.

Kisame would just steam roll everyone he saw. A large number of Akatsuki members were like that and they were beating everybody. Naruto, Raikage, and Bee are like that (and most of the chiefly taijutsu practitioners are actually.)

That's why people make a big deal that Minato didn't seem to have any kekkai genkai but would just use his speed and seals and smarts. to be THAT feared/revered and not have any particularly impressive jutsus?  To out think Tobi and Madara in an instant and foil their plans?

but what Im saying is, alot of people are considered geniuses. Sasuke, gaara, Neji, Kakashi,Itachi, Shikamaru etc. So I dont really hold being smart as a trump card. it all comes down to jutsu imo and the ideal ninja body. Minato had a superior jutsu (FTG which used seals he learned from Kushina).

Jutsu and essentially either the body or eyes of the sage is what sets people like Shikamaru & Kakashi apart from Sasuke.

 

[lexlieno]

let me ask you, what has Hiruzen done that can top any of the feats weve seen madara and by extension Hashirama do.

Madara's ultimate susanno is one of the most devastating things shown. And shadow clones with full susanno's. Thats beast.
Hashirama - wood dragon, Mokuton, darkness genjutsu, poison flowers.

if were going purely by jutsu shown, Hiruzen is pretty crappy. A katon and a doton were what he threw out there. Ill give him shiki fujin, but his arsenal wasnt very impressive.


And honestly, if you think Nagato is top dog, youre clearly mistaken. Itachi ( did take him out while saving Bee and Naruto) and Naruto with the kyuubi at his disposal could take him out.

Hiruzen has shown that he's more than capable of handling wood jutsu even in old age thanks to Enma. Along with the genjutsu. Yes, the ultimate susanoo is shown to be powerful, yet all 5 kages survived it. So.....you're point being? I don't need to repeat myself about his knowledge of jutsus, you also severely underestimating his taijutsu ability. He's also good with seals seeing as how he blew both kages bodies apart without them even noticing. Also yes Nagato was "defeated" by itachi however, you have to put an asterisk by it. Because of he was in pein mode with the bodies it wouldn't happen. It was also said the only reason he got caught was because he didn't fully know how to use his legs since he hasn't walked in so long. Sounds lame but that's how the story goes.

 

[ssjjfar]

To think in this chapter they said Itachi was a Hokage level genius at age 7. Unless he didn't get any smarter as he got older wouldn't you think he was as smart if not smarter than any of the other Hokages?

Unless he was just using "Hokage Level" as an arbitrary level and not actually in comparison to the actual people. But keeping in mind that this is the 3rd saying it with the other 3 Hokages right next to him, I doubt that would be the case.

 

[blakep267]

let me ask you, what has Hiruzen done that can top any of the feats weve seen madara and by extension Hashirama do.

Madara's ultimate susanno is one of the most devastating things shown. And shadow clones with full susanno's. Thats beast.
Hashirama - wood dragon, Mokuton, darkness genjutsu, poison flowers.

if were going purely by jutsu shown, Hiruzen is pretty crappy. A katon and a doton were what he threw out there. Ill give him shiki fujin, but his arsenal wasnt very impressive.


And honestly, if you think Nagato is top dog, youre clearly mistaken. Itachi ( did take him out while saving Bee and Naruto) and Naruto with the kyuubi at his disposal could take him out.

Hiruzen has shown that he's more than capable of handling wood jutsu even in old age thanks to Enma. Along with the genjutsu. Yes, the ultimate susanoo is shown to be powerful, yet all 5 kages survived it. So.....you're point being? I don't need to repeat myself about his knowledge of jutsus, you also severely underestimating his taijutsu ability. He's also good with seals seeing as how he blew both kages bodies apart without them even noticing.

-Capable of handling it? pls read this chapter http://www.mangapanda.com/93-125-7/naruto/chapter-120.html
Hiruzen got gripped up by mokuton. He needed enma to save him. Handling it wouldve been what naruto did to Madara's mokuton

- 5 kages survived ultimate susanno?- http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/601/6
he tapped tht *** and then left

-explosive tags =/= seals. as I already said. Why do edo's need to dodge simple exploding tags. A seal wouldve been sealing their souls and therefore rendering the edo tensei jutsu defeated for th moment

- also knowledge of jutsu means nothing if you cant counter it. Hiruzen was knowledgable of edo tensei, yet he didnt have the skills to put orochimaru under genjutsu and reverse the jutsu.

 

[ssjjfar]

Side note, did SSJ17 Naruto just get a phantom powerup to prepare for the fight vs SSJ25 Sasuke?

Wasn't some of the Kyubi's Chakra sealed within that shinigami, and with the Hokage's being released from it wouldn't that chakra be released to and go into Naruto/Kurama?

 

[lexlieno]

-Capable of handling it? pls read this chapter http://www.mangapanda.com/93-125-7/naruto/chapter-120.html
Hiruzen got gripped up by mokuton. He needed enma to save him. Handling it wouldve been what naruto did to Madara's mokuton

- 5 kages survived ultimate susanno?- http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/601/6
he tapped tht *** and then left

-explosive tags =/= seals. as I already said. Why do edo's need to dodge simple exploding tags. A seal wouldve been sealing their souls and therefore rendering the edo tensei jutsu defeated for th moment

- also knowledge of jutsu means nothing if you cant counter it. Hiruzen was knowledgable of edo tensei, yet he didnt have the skills to put orochimaru under genjutsu and reverse the jutsu.

Haha you would show that panel. This fool built a tree house to chill in and think of a plan. After Enma was summoned the wood jutsu was a non factor, which I clearly stated. Please, you're comparing the 9tails chakra to a 70 year old mans chakra who's been fighting. Naruto was fresh when destroying the wood and it took all of his power to do it.

Say what you want, they still survived it. Also you don't know the limitations of the ultimate susanoo. Like I said can you even include anything Madara is doing because you don't know the effects on his body because he has unlimited chakra and he's immortal....ie all uchihas have susanoo when they get to that level with ms yet they lose their sight. We still haven't seen anyone with ems in action minus Sasukes Amaterasu attack on zetsu, so we know nothing about the other attacks.

Seals and tags do matter. You keep sayig they're immortal. I'm saying they didn't even notice they were placed. Which means if they weren't immortal they'll be dealing with a problem. If your defense is why would they care, their edos....why would did they defend any of his other attacks?! They know they can't die.


He shouted knowledgable jutsu skills when he was fighting them. Countering with mud and earth, etc on limited chakra. That's the key thing. That's another disadvantage and he still got the Job done. With limited chakra he still took care of business vs 3 practically immortal kage level nins.

 

[lexlieno]

let me ask you, what has Hiruzen done that can top any of the feats weve seen madara and by extension Hashirama do.

Madara's ultimate susanno is one of the most devastating things shown. And shadow clones with full susanno's. Thats beast.
Hashirama - wood dragon, Mokuton, darkness genjutsu, poison flowers.

if were going purely by jutsu shown, Hiruzen is pretty crappy. A katon and a doton were what he threw out there. Ill give him shiki fujin, but his arsenal wasnt very impressive.


And honestly, if you think Nagato is top dog, youre clearly mistaken. Itachi ( did take him out while saving Bee and Naruto) and Naruto with the kyuubi at his disposal could take him out.

You still didn't even answer the question. What have you SEEN the first do besides get sealed by the 3rd???

 

[ssjjfar]

To be fair the 3rd used a I can't beat you, so I will sacrifice myself and you(all) Jutsu to stop them. Same thing the 4th did the Kyuubi.

I still think its impossible to compare characters we barely have seen and can only base on 1 or 2 fight, along with random comments from characters here and there

 

[lexlieno]

To be fair the 3rd used a I can't beat you, so I will sacrifice myself and you(all) Jutsu to stop them. Same thing the 4th did the Kyuubi.

I still think its impossible to compare characters we barely have seen and can only base on 1 or 2 fight, along with random comments from characters here and there

That's the thing. He was at a severe handicap, and still neutralized them all. 70yo chakra vs 3 kage level nins and none of them can die. C'mon son.

 

[ssjjfar]

handicap or not, whether he did it or the 4th, its basically auto win. Just knowing the jutso means he can beat anything regardless of handicap. And 3rd was known for being a master of all jutsu.

 

[lexlieno]

handicap or not, whether he did it or the 4th, its basically auto win. Just knowing the jutso means he can beat anything regardless of handicap. And 3rd was known for being a master of all jutsu.

Being a master of all jutsu doesn't mean much when you run out of chakra. Using strategy that was the only tech he has left that would be effective, and effective it was.

 

[ssjjfar]

.... being a master had nothing to do with the point. It just meant he knew the jutsu.

If he, the fourth or anybody knew and used that jutsu it would be effective. Strategy? Its a last resort jutsu. 3rd and 4th used it same way. Not for strategy, just for the end result.

 

[lexlieno]

.... being a master had nothing to do with the point. It just meant he knew the jutsu.

If he, the fourth or anybody knew and used that jutsu it would be effective. Strategy? Its a last resort jutsu. 3rd and 4th used it same way. Not for strategy, just for the end result.

My point was what the use of knowing the jutsu, when you don't have the chakra to do it?  The end result is the same.  I said strategy based on the way he described why he chose to use the jutsu from the chapters.   It's not always an auto win btw.  If it was oro would have been sealed.  So it does require some type of talent/skill. 

 

[2sappy]

Agreed. Outside of the 2nd, it looks like all the Konoha kages have been pretty easy going...now I wonder if he taught the 3rd how to be a perv.

I think it was Jiraya who brought out the inner perv from Hiruzen with that peeping tom jutsu he developed.

 

[ssjjfar]

My point was what the use of knowing the jutsu, when you don't have the chakra to do it?  The end result is the same.  I said strategy based on the way he described why he chose to use the jutsu from the chapters.   It's not always an auto win btw.  If it was oro would have been sealed.  So it does require some type of talent/skill. 

I'm not sure where your trying to go with the having/not having chakra bit but:

If he had full chakra and used the technique the fight was over.
If he was mid level chakra and used the technique the fight was over.
He was very low on chakra and used the technique and the fight was over.