The Official NBA Collective Bargaining Thread vol Phased in Hard Cap

laugh.gif
 @ the premature celebration a couple of pages ago.

As far apart as both sides are y'all expected everything to be resolved this week?

I've prepared myself for a long lockout; football provides a nice distraction up until February, hopefully the lockout is over by then.
 
laugh.gif
 @ the premature celebration a couple of pages ago.

As far apart as both sides are y'all expected everything to be resolved this week?

I've prepared myself for a long lockout; football provides a nice distraction up until February, hopefully the lockout is over by then.
 
Originally Posted by toine2983


As far apart as both sides are y'all expected everything to be resolved this week?

I've prepared myself for a long lockout; football provides a nice distraction up until February, hopefully the lockout is over by then.
Click to expand...
Last week with all the "positive" news coming out I thought that a resolution coming next week was a real possibility.....
But now, I'm back to my previous stance that there won't be a season whatsoever
ohwell.gif
I just hope that if this goes into next season, that we will be able to field NBA guys in the Olympics
frown.gif
 
Originally Posted by toine2983


As far apart as both sides are y'all expected everything to be resolved this week?

I've prepared myself for a long lockout; football provides a nice distraction up until February, hopefully the lockout is over by then.
Click to expand...
Last week with all the "positive" news coming out I thought that a resolution coming next week was a real possibility.....
But now, I'm back to my previous stance that there won't be a season whatsoever
ohwell.gif
I just hope that if this goes into next season, that we will be able to field NBA guys in the Olympics
frown.gif
 
this is some utter #**$%+!@. I hate how Stern always has a smirk on his face also when they interview him about the subject.
 
this is some utter #**$%+!@. I hate how Stern always has a smirk on his face also when they interview him about the subject.
 
I think the players will have to cave unfortunately, i think stern and the owners have made it pretty obvious that they don't plan on giving in, and that they know the ball is in their court
30t6p3b.gif
 
I think the players will have to cave unfortunately, i think stern and the owners have made it pretty obvious that they don't plan on giving in, and that they know the ball is in their court
30t6p3b.gif
 
Originally Posted by thachosen123

I think the players will have to cave unfortunately, i think stern and the owners have made it pretty obvious that they don't plan on giving in, and that they know the ball is in their court
30t6p3b.gif
Click to expand...

i concur. Owners will continue have other investments besides the NBA, while the players are at the bottom of the barrel, especially these players that have been in a few years. Sad, but the players are going to have to compromise to Stern and his clowns
 
Originally Posted by thachosen123

I think the players will have to cave unfortunately, i think stern and the owners have made it pretty obvious that they don't plan on giving in, and that they know the ball is in their court
30t6p3b.gif
Click to expand...

i concur. Owners will continue have other investments besides the NBA, while the players are at the bottom of the barrel, especially these players that have been in a few years. Sad, but the players are going to have to compromise to Stern and his clowns
 
Been watching youtube highlights of games man. It's gonna suck... luckily imma big CBB fan but still, smh
 
Been watching youtube highlights of games man. It's gonna suck... luckily imma big CBB fan but still, smh
 
Sources: Agents want union to decertify

Five of the most powerful agents in the NBA spoke via conference call Monday about how they can help the players union in its stalemate with the league's owners. Their answer: blow the union up.

Arn Tellem, Bill Duffy, Mark Bartelstein, Jeff Schwartz and Dan Fegan -- who collectively represent nearly one-third of the league's players -- spoke Monday about the process of decertifying the union, according to sources with knowledge of the situation.

The agents' view is that the owners currently have most, if not all, of the leverage in these talks and that something needs to be done to turn the tide. They believe decertification will do the trick, creating uncertainty and wresting control away from the owners.

"The union has been negotiating with the league for a year and a half and the owners haven't changed their stance, so the conversation the agents had was about how to work with the union to enhance its strategy," a person close to the situation said on condition of anonymity. "The feeling is that decertification is the weapon that has to be pulled out of the arsenal, that it's the most effective way to change the dynamics of the negotiations."

The agents have spoken with Billy Hunter, the executive director of the players association, about the need for decertification, but he has thus far resisted their plan. He said Tuesday that the players are not yet considering decertifying.

"We've never really had any discussion about decertification," Hunter said after meeting with the owners. "As you're aware, we've obviously been experiencing some pressure in the media from some of the agents about decertification. That's not a message that has crossed our lips."

Hunter believes he has his own weapon to change the tenor of the talks in the lawsuit the union filed with the National Labor Relations Board.

The suit claims that the NBA is not negotiating in good faith. Hunter said he hopes there will be a ruling within the next few weeks.

If the union wins its suit, the NLRB could declare the lockout illegal and end it, though the number of cases in which the NLRB has done that in the past decade is miniscule. Nevertheless, Hunter is not likely to consider decertification until getting the results of the suit.

The agents could push for an involuntary decertification by getting 30 percent of the league's players to sign a petition saying it supports decertification. And that's almost exactly the percentage of NBA players the five agents represent. While the agents have talked to their players about decertifying, sources say they have not started asking for signatures.

If they were to get 30 percent of the union's membership to sign a petition, the matter would go to a vote before all the league's players. A simple majority would be enough to decertify. 

Not all agents believe decertification is the way, though. Happy Walters, Jeff Austin and Rob Pelinka, who represents Kobe Bryant and union president Derek Fisher, are among the agents who are not pushing for decertification. 

Fisher emerged from Tuesday's labor meetings with a pessimistic view after the two sides made little to no progress during a full committee meeting. 

"I think coming out of today, obviously because of the calendar, we can't come out of here feeling as though training camps and the season is going to start on time at this point," Fisher said. 

That notion was shared by NBA commissioner David Stern. 

"Well, we did not have a great day, I think it's fair to say that," Stern said. "On the other hand, we did say that it is our collective task to decide what we want on the one hand on each side, and two, what each side needs if we choose to work ourselves in such a way as to have the season start on time. That's still our goal." 

Training camps have been expected to open Oct. 3 and the regular season's opening night is scheduled for Nov. 1.


Link
Everyone should check ESPN's TrueHoop Blog too. It's constantly updated with informative posts.
Click to expand...
 
Sources: Agents want union to decertify

Five of the most powerful agents in the NBA spoke via conference call Monday about how they can help the players union in its stalemate with the league's owners. Their answer: blow the union up.

Arn Tellem, Bill Duffy, Mark Bartelstein, Jeff Schwartz and Dan Fegan -- who collectively represent nearly one-third of the league's players -- spoke Monday about the process of decertifying the union, according to sources with knowledge of the situation.

The agents' view is that the owners currently have most, if not all, of the leverage in these talks and that something needs to be done to turn the tide. They believe decertification will do the trick, creating uncertainty and wresting control away from the owners.

"The union has been negotiating with the league for a year and a half and the owners haven't changed their stance, so the conversation the agents had was about how to work with the union to enhance its strategy," a person close to the situation said on condition of anonymity. "The feeling is that decertification is the weapon that has to be pulled out of the arsenal, that it's the most effective way to change the dynamics of the negotiations."

The agents have spoken with Billy Hunter, the executive director of the players association, about the need for decertification, but he has thus far resisted their plan. He said Tuesday that the players are not yet considering decertifying.

"We've never really had any discussion about decertification," Hunter said after meeting with the owners. "As you're aware, we've obviously been experiencing some pressure in the media from some of the agents about decertification. That's not a message that has crossed our lips."

Hunter believes he has his own weapon to change the tenor of the talks in the lawsuit the union filed with the National Labor Relations Board.

The suit claims that the NBA is not negotiating in good faith. Hunter said he hopes there will be a ruling within the next few weeks.

If the union wins its suit, the NLRB could declare the lockout illegal and end it, though the number of cases in which the NLRB has done that in the past decade is miniscule. Nevertheless, Hunter is not likely to consider decertification until getting the results of the suit.

The agents could push for an involuntary decertification by getting 30 percent of the league's players to sign a petition saying it supports decertification. And that's almost exactly the percentage of NBA players the five agents represent. While the agents have talked to their players about decertifying, sources say they have not started asking for signatures.

If they were to get 30 percent of the union's membership to sign a petition, the matter would go to a vote before all the league's players. A simple majority would be enough to decertify. 

Not all agents believe decertification is the way, though. Happy Walters, Jeff Austin and Rob Pelinka, who represents Kobe Bryant and union president Derek Fisher, are among the agents who are not pushing for decertification. 

Fisher emerged from Tuesday's labor meetings with a pessimistic view after the two sides made little to no progress during a full committee meeting. 

"I think coming out of today, obviously because of the calendar, we can't come out of here feeling as though training camps and the season is going to start on time at this point," Fisher said. 

That notion was shared by NBA commissioner David Stern. 

"Well, we did not have a great day, I think it's fair to say that," Stern said. "On the other hand, we did say that it is our collective task to decide what we want on the one hand on each side, and two, what each side needs if we choose to work ourselves in such a way as to have the season start on time. That's still our goal." 

Training camps have been expected to open Oct. 3 and the regular season's opening night is scheduled for Nov. 1.


Link
Everyone should check ESPN's TrueHoop Blog too. It's constantly updated with informative posts.
Click to expand...
 
No problem...just trying to keep everyone up to speed.
Reaction: 'We just took eight steps back'

To this point the NBA labor negotiations can be summed up like this:
Owners: Give us our money back.
Players: You can't have it.

There's no incremental progress to be made on the fundamental difference of the hard salary cap. Either it's in the next collective bargaining agreement or it isn't. And there's also no point in continuing these negotiations until the owners work out a revenue-sharing plan among themselves.

The NBA is asking the players to solve the league's financial issues, even though reduced salaries wouldn't address the economic disparity between local television contracts in Los Angeles and Charlotte or change the fact that it's a lot warmer in Miami than Cleveland. In other words, a hard cap on its own wouldn't assure financial and competitive balance throughout the realm.

The NBA's salary cap -- the first in American professional sports -- was instituted in the 1984-85 season. Since then only nine teams have won a championship. The NFL and NHL have crowned 14 different champions each in that span. Baseball has had 17 different teams win a championship. The NBA has been the least successful at legislating balance. So it's trying to do the next best thing and attempting to legislate profit.

"If it's about small-market teams not profiting, if the owners are really using that as a bargaining tool, if you're really concerned about it, then why aren't you profit-sharing like the other leagues are doing?" Celtics center Jermaine O'Neal asked after a workout at the Impact Basketball facility in Las Vegas Tuesday, after word had spread about the latest impasse in the labor talks.
"So do we accept a deal that totally butchers our game? Because what they don't understand, if you take out mid-tier deals and say, 'Fend for bare minimum at the bottom,' they'll be individualizing our game so severely."
That's something I hadn't thought about. Take away guarantees, turn most rosters into extremes of max guys and minimum guys, and you've got a squad full of guys trying to get their numbers to get paid. I saw that dynamic in play with the Clippers before, when Donald Sterling didn't extend the contracts of any of his free-agents-to-be and it was every man for himself.

Baseball and football teams benefit from players in contract years. They get more home runs, more tackles, more wins. In basketball, selfish goals destroy teams.

Guaranteed, salary cap-eating contracts from players who are injured or underperforming can wreck teams as well, of course. But O'Neal served up a reminder that some apparent solutions create another set of problems.

A flawed system would be better than no system, which is what we have now. There still isn't enough pressure to force a deal anytime soon, not with enough owners willing to lose real games.

The latest breakdown also turned up the talk of decertification, because if union leader Billy Hunter isn't making progress there is a group of agents who would rather take their chances in the courtroom.

That wouldn't assure any quicker resolution, especially because the NBA has taken enough steps to make a case for good-faith negotiations.

"Our intention as a union is to work out something with the owners," O'Neal said. "If we decertify we don't know where that goes. It becomes a legal issue after that."

The mood among the players gathered for games here in Las Vegas was noticeably dimmer than the previous day. On Monday night I asked if the latest set of owner-union meetings actually represented progress, and as a demonstration I took one step closer to a wall some 40 yards away.
"That's progress," Charlotte Bobcats forward Corey Maggette said, taking the most literal definition he could.

On Tuesday, Maggette wasn't feeling the same way.
"We just took eight steps back," he said.

"Someone needs to compromise," Maggette said. "The owners have to compromise.

"We need to have revenue sharing with the teams that are not making money. That's important. I play[ed] for one of the teams that's one of the worst [in revenues], Milwaukee. We've got to have [sharing] with guys like the Lakers and the big-name teams that's making tons and tons of money. Donald Sterling's another guy that makes money even if he loses. We need to figure out a way to get that going."

The players say they've done a better job of financially preparing themselves for this lockout than they did in 1998. Playing overseas is a more viable option than it was then also. At this point the rank-and-file players might be more unified than the owners, who aren't in accord about whether to scrap the season or how to split the revenues once they resume.

But Maggette knows the cold truth.

"I don't care how much money that the NBA players have, you cannot beat billionaires," he said.

That's why I believe the owners will enforce the lockout through the scheduled start of the season, and that when it ends it will be on the owners' terms. In the meantime, I'll pass along the advice that was given to me from a league source Tuesday: "Rhetoric will get louder, so bring your common-sense filter daily and don't get too deep into public comments."


Link
Click to expand...
 
No problem...just trying to keep everyone up to speed.
Reaction: 'We just took eight steps back'

To this point the NBA labor negotiations can be summed up like this:
Owners: Give us our money back.
Players: You can't have it.

There's no incremental progress to be made on the fundamental difference of the hard salary cap. Either it's in the next collective bargaining agreement or it isn't. And there's also no point in continuing these negotiations until the owners work out a revenue-sharing plan among themselves.

The NBA is asking the players to solve the league's financial issues, even though reduced salaries wouldn't address the economic disparity between local television contracts in Los Angeles and Charlotte or change the fact that it's a lot warmer in Miami than Cleveland. In other words, a hard cap on its own wouldn't assure financial and competitive balance throughout the realm.

The NBA's salary cap -- the first in American professional sports -- was instituted in the 1984-85 season. Since then only nine teams have won a championship. The NFL and NHL have crowned 14 different champions each in that span. Baseball has had 17 different teams win a championship. The NBA has been the least successful at legislating balance. So it's trying to do the next best thing and attempting to legislate profit.

"If it's about small-market teams not profiting, if the owners are really using that as a bargaining tool, if you're really concerned about it, then why aren't you profit-sharing like the other leagues are doing?" Celtics center Jermaine O'Neal asked after a workout at the Impact Basketball facility in Las Vegas Tuesday, after word had spread about the latest impasse in the labor talks.
"So do we accept a deal that totally butchers our game? Because what they don't understand, if you take out mid-tier deals and say, 'Fend for bare minimum at the bottom,' they'll be individualizing our game so severely."
That's something I hadn't thought about. Take away guarantees, turn most rosters into extremes of max guys and minimum guys, and you've got a squad full of guys trying to get their numbers to get paid. I saw that dynamic in play with the Clippers before, when Donald Sterling didn't extend the contracts of any of his free-agents-to-be and it was every man for himself.

Baseball and football teams benefit from players in contract years. They get more home runs, more tackles, more wins. In basketball, selfish goals destroy teams.

Guaranteed, salary cap-eating contracts from players who are injured or underperforming can wreck teams as well, of course. But O'Neal served up a reminder that some apparent solutions create another set of problems.

A flawed system would be better than no system, which is what we have now. There still isn't enough pressure to force a deal anytime soon, not with enough owners willing to lose real games.

The latest breakdown also turned up the talk of decertification, because if union leader Billy Hunter isn't making progress there is a group of agents who would rather take their chances in the courtroom.

That wouldn't assure any quicker resolution, especially because the NBA has taken enough steps to make a case for good-faith negotiations.

"Our intention as a union is to work out something with the owners," O'Neal said. "If we decertify we don't know where that goes. It becomes a legal issue after that."

The mood among the players gathered for games here in Las Vegas was noticeably dimmer than the previous day. On Monday night I asked if the latest set of owner-union meetings actually represented progress, and as a demonstration I took one step closer to a wall some 40 yards away.
"That's progress," Charlotte Bobcats forward Corey Maggette said, taking the most literal definition he could.

On Tuesday, Maggette wasn't feeling the same way.
"We just took eight steps back," he said.

"Someone needs to compromise," Maggette said. "The owners have to compromise.

"We need to have revenue sharing with the teams that are not making money. That's important. I play[ed] for one of the teams that's one of the worst [in revenues], Milwaukee. We've got to have [sharing] with guys like the Lakers and the big-name teams that's making tons and tons of money. Donald Sterling's another guy that makes money even if he loses. We need to figure out a way to get that going."

The players say they've done a better job of financially preparing themselves for this lockout than they did in 1998. Playing overseas is a more viable option than it was then also. At this point the rank-and-file players might be more unified than the owners, who aren't in accord about whether to scrap the season or how to split the revenues once they resume.

But Maggette knows the cold truth.

"I don't care how much money that the NBA players have, you cannot beat billionaires," he said.

That's why I believe the owners will enforce the lockout through the scheduled start of the season, and that when it ends it will be on the owners' terms. In the meantime, I'll pass along the advice that was given to me from a league source Tuesday: "Rhetoric will get louder, so bring your common-sense filter daily and don't get too deep into public comments."


Link
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