Manchester.
United and City started for very, very different reasons. United were started for a bunch of railway workers, many of which were immigrants and of Irish descent which one of the reasons why they've traditionally been seen as out of towners. City was started by the Connell family, a Priest and his daughter (I think we're the only league Club to have a woman founder IIRC), as a way to find something else for the local boys to do as they were creating street gangs and thieving in a very tough time to live.
They kind of grew out of this respective heritage though the years. City still to this very day believe themselves to be intrinsically linked to their community as a way of helping the working classes. United still to this very day see themselves as the Club built for everybody, completely inclusionary of all people from all races and all corners of the world.
Immediately you see the different mindsets and ethos of the respective Clubs. United were the communistic ideal of equality, City were the socialistic idea of community service.
In the early days, both Clubs moved around the city, not really finding their natural home due to a lack of funds and a lack of facilities. United bounced from Newton Heath to Clayton then eventually to Old Trafford. If you think of it like a clock, United went from 1 o'clock in the city, to about 6 o'clock. All of their sites retained a closeness to major railway sites, including Old Trafford which is a stones throw from the Trafford Park sail line. Much of Manchester's history is built on our utilisation of rail to trade.
Just a quick aside here. Liverpool were actually the port where all trade used to come into and it made the area pretty affluent. Manchester, which is a little more inland and was the production centre, then built a Ship Canal from the coast directly into the city and built a railway (the first ever and which an old relative of devineman was one of the drivers) which basically bypassed their city entirely. This is the modern beginnings of the Manchester-Liverpool rivalry as Liverpool accused Manchester of "tukin der jerbs", and United being a railway workers club, well, you can see how it gets going. Old Trafford is next to the docks of the Ship Canal which became an important port too.
Whilst United were trying to find their home around the rails, City was moving too. They started off on the playing fields of Gorton but their first real ground was just in Ardwick then again moved to Maine Road. United were moving around the edges and City who started at about four o'clock on the clock geogrphy of Manchester, were moving inwards towards the centre of the city.
For what it's worth, City were the more affluent of the neighbours at this time for a few reasons. Mainly it's because we moved towards population centres whilst United kept in the industrial centres (again, remembering the ethos upon which both clubs were founded and United's rail ties). This is good to remember because changes in the UK actually made the population centres of this time into working class areas and the old industrial parts of the city into the suburbs where wealthier people lived about 70 years later. City had lots of money and bought their ground off of the old owners, a brewery and with their new riches built the Wembley of the North, Maine Road. Funnily, they were building Wembley at the time and the people who built Maine Road was the Northern division of the company that built Wembley so there was a bit of a competition internally to who could get it finished and in a better quality. Maine Road gave City a new burst of wealth and it still hold the records for any attendance in England outside of Wembley both in a league game (United/Arsenal) and any game (City/Stoke).
Whilst things were going well for the affluent City, United fell into major financial problems. One of the problems with having lots of fans who are railway workers, is that some of them will eventually get back on their train and go home. Around the time that City were hosting England internationals at their (Ardwick) stadium, United were declaring bankruptcy. They were saved because a guy called John Henry Davis bought them up and was determined to make them into a big Club. You have to remember that there weren't just United and City around at this time, there were a good ten or twenty teams around Manchester, with City being the major Club and the others all having decent sized crowds but struggling once City started hosting glamour matches and transportation links in the city became better then started winning trophies.
John Henry Davis was a wealthy guy, owning a big alcohol based business and marrying into the Tate family fortune (Tate as in Tate & Lyle the sugar merchants and the Tate Modern art gallery). Together with a group of businessmen, he took over the ailing United and started to rebuild their ground and invest money in the Club. Actually he didn't really, the class fairy came down and waved her magic wand and Manchester United were now formed and were the biggest Club ever. Ahem.
Just as another aside, there seems to be plans on the table at this point for United to move into the centre of Manchester to try and get bigger attendences but this never got off the ground. The "Manchester Central" name that people think was considered is actually a myth as far as anyone can tell but as another marker of their Irish heritage, they did briefly consider Manchester Celtic. I've always consider Manchester United to be the perfect name for them. Many of the Clubs in Manchester around this time were going out of business due to City and calling the team Manchester: United gave them a sense that it had been absorbed into United. Again, United being the inclusive Club, welcoming all comers to share their experience.
At this point in history, City were the dominant Club in the region and due to this were putting everybody else out of business, who couldn't compete with their huge revenues or drawing power. United were languishing in obscurity somewhat and were funded by a rich investor who did up their stadium, bought them lots of players and made them a real threat to the dominance of City. History isn't without a sense of irony it seems.
There was a wage cap around this time. Footballers were not yet millionaire superstars and often had a couple of jobs on the side. Manchester was still heavily working class area and a production central rather than the cosmopolitan place that London was. One of the things that City did at the time, was break FA rules by paying their players the wage cap but then also giving them bonuses for performance. They were caught and spanked by the FA whilst a bunch of their players were banned from playing. Of course, these players had to be auctioned off and who was the one guy sat in the auction room buying player after player? Ernest Magnall, manager of Manchester United and backed by Henry Davis. They bought them all and won their first major trophies.
The first Welsh Wizard that went from City to United and became a legend was Billy Meredith, a supreme player for his time and is probably still adjudged by historians as one of United's best ever players. He was also the guy who whilst playing for City buggered us up with the FA. He was caught trying to bribe a Villa player to throw a game, asked City to cover it up which we didn't so he ble the whistle on the bonus payments. He's still seen as a legend at City too and actually coached both teams in his later years. The Bryan Kidd of his day, but with more talent (sorry Kiddo). He even went on later to setup the PFA.
Of course, City being the dominant animals at the time still planning their super stadium, weren't going to allow the fact that we were banned for financial doping and docked points stop them, so they nicked United's manager and a couple of players back including Meredith. Magnall's last game in charge of United when he'd already agreed to join City? The Manchester Derby. At Old Trafford. Which City won 1-0. And he celebrated as they scored.
Magnall actually was a major force behind both City's move to Maine Road and United's move to Old Trafford, and he won trophies for both Clubs so he's a legend anyway.
The First World War broke out and the tensions between the Clubs cooled a bit as the British Spirit[emoji]8482[/emoji] kicked in and it was us taking on those dastardly Krauts. Even post war when City were building their Wembley of the North, they considered a ground share with United (who by this time had Davies investment in their ground, the above story is supposed to be concurrent), a new spirit of handshakes all around prevailed.
The inter-war years pretty much went how they pre-war years went. City continued to do well and win trophies including the FA Cup and the league. United not so much.
City got to the FA Cup final in 33 and won it in 34 whilst maintaining high league positions and winning the league in 37. As a marker for things to come for City, they scored 100 goals in their title winning season of 37 then became the only reigning champions ever relegated in 38 despite scoring the most goals in the league (F: 80, A:77). My Grandad points to this moment as the genesis of "Typical City" and says that we were actually a great team but were miles behind tactically but then, my Grandad says a lot. He also says that Kinkladze was half the player of Peter Doherty so **** him. Speaking of elderly relatives, my highly religious and a bit nutty Nan (on the other side) tells me that there was a Catholic-Protestant split in the fanbases too, and I've been told this by quite a few people but never found anything to back it up. This might explain why City and Rangers are close, or we could just both think United and Celtic are *****?
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[–]Manchester City
devineman 116 points 3 years ago
United (after their investor died) fell into financial troubles and relegation until a new class fairy called James Gibson came along, cleared their debts and invested lots of money into them. They still bounced up and down the leagues a bit until the Second World War but they were getting steadily better.
Rosler's Grandad (the Germans) bombed Old Trafford during the war which led to a ground share agreement with City until Gibson convinced the Government to pay for the rebuilding of Old Trafford. Manchester wasn't a city that was hit particularly hard compared to others and indeed many people flocked TO Manchester during the war. My uncle Barry, now sadly deceased, says that he was evacuated from Manchester during the war to Cheadle. When he was dropped off, he laughed and walked home. It took him a few hours or so.
Post-war football history is pretty well covered. City continued in the 50s to gain pretty decent success whilst United appointed Busby and became legends. The real skill Busby had was being the first to appoint his own staff and control transfers, something not really done by the manager at the time which is also why continental Clubs founded during this period still use this model to this day and English Clubs remembering Busby use that model. City were the first in English football to popularise the deep lying centre forwad at this point around later Clough-hater Don Revie.
The Munich Air Disaster in 1958 and the subsequent reprercussions were a big point in the histories of both Clubs. People argue that around this time was the moment that United became bigger than City and were catapulted into worldwide superstardom for the first time but it' a bit of an oversimplification I feel. Whilst Munich definitely created a mass of public sympathy for United and created a lot of fans who were actively routing for them to do well again in an excellent underdog story, the wheels were in motion prior to this. City's popularity was based on City being the population centre and United being the industrial centre. Post war, Manchester was changing as a city. The motor industry was big in Manchester, specifically Old Trafford where they built the Model T Ford, as well as the cotton mills and on the outskirts industries such as coal. The city centre around this point stopped being a population centre of working class and upper class then started to become a commercial centre, full of shops. The affulent people moved out of the centre towards the suburbs leaving only the working class people in their place. In addition to this, Manchester as an industrial manufacturing centre where ships sailed to was declining. The populations spread out further and the city became less important than it was at the genesis of these Clubs, where one could argue that Manchester was the centre of the Industrial Revolution. As the city changed, United were in the best position to capitalise on this and City were in the worst. Within a generation, City had gone from the dominating Club of Manchester that nobody could compete with to being about level with United, to United overtaking them on the success of the Busby Era and the effects of Munich Disaster on the country.
The sixties and seventies were good for both teams and the city in general terms. City had a quick relegation to continue our proud tradition of getting relegated just before we win something, then went on to appoint Mercer and Allison which led to one of the most famous points in our history. Manchester was a great footballing city at this point, with both teams doing well in the league and the cups. We had Bell, Summerbee and Lee; they had Charlton, Best and Law. My Dad and a bunch of people from this era tell me that people generally used to go to both around this period because it was now easy to get around Manchester and the football was so good. When City played at home, United were away and vice versa so they went to whoever was at home. Obviously, this just wouldn't do so we nicked Law, Best walked out of United, Bell got injured, Summerbee (probably because he used to go and get pissed with Best) fell out of form a bit and Lee moved on to Derby. The rivalry started to intensify around the sixties and seventies as the culture of modern fans developed.
By the late 70s, both Clubs were pretty down in the doldrums as the Conservative government came into power and started napalming the working classes. This was really when hooliganism started, as young lads no longer had anything to do apart from struggle to find work all week then go out for a drink, a few pints a decent brawl on Saturdays. Liberalism, Best/Summerbee glamour parties and the flowing football from both teams with a sense of positivity was replaced by a pretty bleak future. The extremes of both sides took over.
During the 80s, United struggled a bit and City totally crumbled under the failed economic plans of Thatcher. Remember that the affluent people had moved out of the city centre as cars and public transport became more available leaving only the working classes on City's doorstep which Thatcher had just decided to see if the ***** could starve them to death or something. Manchester as a city crumbled if I'm honest. Bands of the area played a new style of music for a new style of youth, and football has always been a reflection of the 18-35 culture at the time. The Sex Pistols and Joy Division started playing in the clubs of Manchester, fuelled by a dissatisfaction and alienation from traditional authority, the only future being one of misery and despair. Everybody started living in the moment, future be damned.
City sacked about two hundred managers at this point and obviously were relegated. Usually, this is cause for celebration at City as it means that we're about to go off and win the league or something but in the 80s in Northern working class towns there was no such thing as a rise after a fall. There was just a fall and some **** kicking you in the bollocks.
United has officially taken over City in Manchester at this point and they didn't quite reach the depths that City did due to good management from Sexton, a fanbase that was growing and the Edwards family doing everything they could to fund and promote the Club. Eventually, Ferguson took over in the mid 80s and in his first few years didn't do particularly well by United's high standards. He was helped by a couple of things though. Firstly, his Chairman believed that he was going to sell the Club to a guy called Michael Knighton (for a now amazing £20m) so completely loosened the purse strings in the hope that he could keep United moving forward and would get anything back in any potential sale. This sale fell through and Edwards was forced to float the Club, something that ultimately led to Malcolm Glazer. Secondly, he had a great record in Scotland and had good league finishes banked before he hit a sticky patch. Thirdly, and it seems daft to call this a positive now, but many of his established squad got injured and he had to call up some of his youth players to play in their place. Those players were guys like Giggs and Sharpe (the Scholes/Beckham/Neville generation was years later).
Then United along with some other big Clubs at the time decided to get together and create the idea for the Premier League. Then Hillsborough happened and everybody had to get seats instead of terraces which luckily coincided with Edwards getting money in from floating the Club which put them in a better position financially than most, and Ferguson was off at the races and would go on to immortality doing the things that I'm pretty sure everybody knows here from Cantona through to his youth system through to Cole and Yorke to Ronaldo and Rooney, etc.
City had possibly the worst Chairman in the history of football in Peter Swales. It would take me the same length again to tell you how badly he ****** City up and he took us from a league winning side in the 70s to a bankrupt club in the 90s. Whilst Edwards constantly found new money for United through investment or by floating, and promoted their brand and got their commercial department going, etc, etc, Swales mostly sat around with his chums at the FA and ate biscuits. Comparing Swales and Edwards is like comparing the old traditionalist set in his ways and ignorant to the world to the new upstart plugged into reality and with the talent to make his vision work. It was Microsoft vs Apple, or IBM vs Microsoft if you're of that age. To be honest, under Swales, Maine Road suffered and it fell from the Wembley of the North to a ground that always looked like it was a strong wind away from falling over. In fact, if Hillsborough and the Taylor Report wouldn't have happened, it probably would have fell over. Old Trafford conversely went from an old concrete stadium into a plush and refined all seater, with nice facilities and polite staff. Edwards was an absolute game changer in every sense of the word in football terms and I honestly think that without him, football wouldn't be the sport it is today. So if you guys are sat there reading this in the US and support Barcelona or Spurs or Milan or whomever, you actually owe a bit of thanks to Martin Edwards and how he revolutionised the commercial part of football. He was our Steve Jobs. And he was at those bastards across the road.
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[–]Manchester City
devineman 92 points 3 years ago
For what it's worth, the meeting of the Big Five Chairman which was a secret meeting planned between the Chairman of Arsenal, Spurs, United, Liverpool and Everton would have been a Big Six with two Manchester Clubs, two North London Clubs and two Liverpool Clubs but everybody thought Swales was an establishment prick who would run to the Football League and rat them out. They eventually let him into their little secret a bit later but by both the Chairman at the time and the City fans he was seen as a man who was there purely because he liked being important at the FA rather than actually wanting to do well for his Club and make some money. He was a big City fan, I'll give him that but he was a balloon.
By this time, Manchester was getting into the 90s and started to bounce back. Madchester was all around us and happy faces broke out. The Summer of Love happened when the Stone Roses and the Happy Mondays were plying their trade, a happier music from the Smiths based sadness of the late 80s. I put this down to the fact that everybody was smashed off their **** on ecstasy but with the introduction of the Premier League and United's success, there was a general happiness about the place. City fans even managed to throw out Peter Swales and replaced him with now millionaire former City legend Francis Lee (of the Lee, Bell, Summerbee era earlier). People in the City thought that this would be the resurgence of the 70s era where both Clubs would be strutting their funky stuff on the pitch.
Lee broke down the old crumbling Maine Road and started rebuilding stands such as the famous Kippax, determined to give us the Wembley of the North again. The one problem with this idea is that it is bollocks. You can't recapture lightning in a bottle like City had in the 30s or 70s, you have to build afresh to suit a new audience of now Premier League watchers. Spurred on by his seeming fascination with all things 70s, Lee appointed former World Cup winner and personal friend of his Alan Ball to be City's manager. Stevie ******* Wonder could see this wasn't going to work out well. Lee built two phases of a five part plan for the stadium before he forgot that having a toilet paper based empire might not last forever and he ran out of money, Ball was one of the worst and infuriating managers in City's history who had bright sparks like declaring Buster Phillips as the first £10m player (a winger striker who couldn't shoot, run or cross and ended up getting loaned to Scunthorpe).
Lee eventually fell out with Ball and sacked him for relegating us, appointing United legend Steve Coppell who lasted six days as the manager before he left and was replaced with Frank Clark for a couple of months who was sacked so Joe Royle came in. At least Joe used to played for City and had done alright with Everton. We continued our excellent new found tradition, started under Swales, of sacking a manager every couple of months. Explaining all of their reigns before Royle would take forever, to be honest, I don't even remember some of them. Apparently Phil Neal was in charge for a bit or something? If I wanted to remember that amount of names, I'd be a botanist.
Britpop was kicking off just as Francis Lee was replaced by now FA Chairman David Bernstein as City Chairman. United had gone from strength to strength to strength under the excellent partnership of Ferguson and Edwards and were now just dominating English football in a manner barely ever seen in history. City were in Division Two. Happily, a young Mancunian group fully aware of what it is like growing up in working class areas as a City fan came onto the scene and steadily gained to become the biggest rock band in the world. Songs like Roll With It, Wonderwall and Champagne Supernova summed up the feeling of City fans at that time, a general thought process that if we could just stick with the Club through this patch, we'd someday regain our position in Manchester and in football. Some might say, that we would find a brighter day. United started slipping away from Manchester at this point, but you could say that it was the ultimate goal of the Club when founded all the way back in Newton Heath rail yard. They no longer became "our Club" but became "their Club", the world's Club, the Club that everybody could love and enjoy and be proud of, an achievement for humanity rather than an achievement for Manchester.
City at this time became more withdrawn and protective, probably because we couldn't compare on the more lucrative ground United were on and we fleshed out a different identity. We identified with Oasis and others as Mancunians more, we were Manchester culture, supported by Manchester people. United were for everybody and that's fine, but this City is ours. I think these stereotypes about both Clubs still are accepted despite not really being based in reality. Manchester is pretty split really.
Royle took us up with a dramatic comeback from Division Two on the same week that United won the European Cup with a dramatic comeback win. It kind of sums up the City-United period there, City did something exciting and great. Then United do something exciting and great but somehow just that bit
better than what you just did. Bunch of *****. City were that kid in class who struggles and fights and works hard and finally achieves an A in calculus. United were Stephen ******* Hawking.
From Division Two we were back in the Premier League in a two seasons, so obviously we were relegated back to Division One the season after. Keegan then came to City and brought his brand of mad, attacking almost suicidal football and put us back in the PL and in good contention for a UEFA Cup spot. We brought in guys like Anelka and Foe and even moved to our own new stadium, the City of Manchester Stadium which had no further use after the Commonwealth Games and David Bernstein negotiated a deal with the council which favoured City so heavily that he should have worn a stripey jumper and carried a bag named SWAG (that's what robbers used to call treasure, kids, not whatever those rapper dudes mean). In return we gave the council the Wembley of the North, which despite Lee's two phased five phase plan, became The Highbury of the North, then maybe the Brisbane Road of the North then really the That Pile of Concrete of the North.
United had gone from winning the Champions League and also had their own new plans afoot, taking their global marketing to whole new places which in turn drove up revenues in the PL. Ferguson even brought in Veron to add a bit of flair to his midfield whilst Chelsea were getting envious eyes cast over them due to a certain Russian looking to make an investment, coincidentally after falling in love with football after watching a match at Old Trafford. The globalism that United created under Edwards was starting to bite them in the ****, and takeover bids from "less than optimal" owners such as Rupert Murdoch's Sky, a couple of Irish horse owners who had a bit of a tiff with Fergie and eventually the final nail in the Edwards-United coffin, Malcolm Glazer comes in. Billionaire owners like Roman came in and United became a Club reflecting on the price of their earlier success. They still have Fergie and the owners seemed smart enough to give him money when he wanted it and stay out of his way when he asked for something so have generally gone from strength to strength. When both of the Edwards-Ferguson duo is finally gone and United have to start looking at themselves in a new era, it will be interesting to see the response compared to their historical actions. Will they continue to bethe Club for all? As City are moving up in the world and seemingly have limitless money will they move back to self-identifying with Manchester again and encourage more local fans through ticket drops? For what it is worth, the Glazers give almost nothing to the Manchester United Foundation (their charitable arm) but United's community programs are still there. Will they move again into a different stadium as the city of Manchester generally becomes more affluent and the suburbs grow? As Manchester and Liverpool merge into one city over the next hundred years, what are the fates of the respective clubs? Does any of this matter in a global football market?
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[–]Manchester City
devineman 97 points 3 years ago
As Chelsea are getting taken over, City did quite well in the league which is a signal that we're about to get relegated in a strange reversal of fortunes from earlier in history. They jut scraped staying up though, and true to their traditions, sacked their manager and appointed somebody else who was probably woefully underqualified in Stuart Pearce. Pearce managed to go an entire season scoring 10 goals at home and none after the Xmas period, which was highly entertaining in the same way that watching paint dry in silence in a white room is entertaining. You sort of wonder how more bored you can possibly get which is a game in of itself. Every silver lining has a cloud.
City's new owner after the legend who turned out to be a bit dim in Francis Lee was a combination of John Wardle and a few others. You have to give these guys credit, they kept the Club alive during some very tough periods and often dug into their own pockets to pay wages and the like of. Keegan gave us a bunch of players on high wages that we couldn't shift and we were running out of money again. Selling Sweep to Chelsea saved our skin more than most people would like to admit, we were close to the edge in this period whilst United were raking in record profits. Pearce was forced to play obviously unready youth players like the Sweeps, Richards, Bartons and Irelands, most of which had their promising careers derailed by too much football too soon. City made a public statement that they were willing to consider offers for the Club again. Another former City player Ray Ranson wanted to buy but we'd been down that road and Thaskin Shinawatra put in a bid which was eventually accepted.
The Shinawatra period sums up City's post-70s history unlike any other ownership period. We found a rich billionaire owner who wanted to make us into a global fanbase. He came along to a party we had in Manchester and attempted to sing songs in broken English. He was handing out handshakes and smiles. Everything was going right for us FINALLY. We had our new stadium, we had a billionaire owner wanting to invest in new players, we had a great new manager called Sven fresh off his England career. Everything was finally happening for us again.
Apart from the fact that our happy go lucky owner turned out to be a bloodthirsty tyrant, who was the world's only penniless billionaire and employed a manager who bought a load of crap players for big money who he then sacked then had took the Club a couple of days away from non-existence. ****.
Finally, we got our wish when Sheikh Mansour took over, restarted all of the community programs that had been languishing and underfunded and started to bring in quality whilst building the infrastructure.
You see, this is one of those things that makes me laugh when people say things like "City isn't City any more because of foreign investment". Sheikh Mansour gave us the Club back, he re-established the social aspects of City, kept ticket prices low and invested heavily into the staff so that everything at City is of a high standard. He's our game changer, able to prop up the Club financially whilst making the changes that we fans consider a revolution akin to what Edwards was doing at United. You guys can already see this type of thing through social media and the website, and now the Academy. This might also provide some context to my positivity that I generally display about City and the pride in which I talk about the investment and facilities.
So the rivalry of City and United goes deeper than two Clubs who share the name "Manchester". It's a tale of a duality where one dominates and the other languishes in bankruptcy though our history. A tale of music and social upheaval, of investment and owners both good and bad, of relegations and heartbreaks on one side contrasted with successes nd delights on the other. It's a tale of the philosophy of football Clubs, of what the ultimate goal of them is. Historically, due to this duality of their fates, there's so much resentment on either side spurred through jealousy and comparison. It's the tale of globalisation and the effects of it. Of class warfare. Of joining together in times of disaster. Of cheating players and celebratory managers.
This is why the Mancunian rivalry matters. It has a bearing on the whole city. This city lives for music and football, it always has done back to the huge brass band tradition of the late 1800s that still continues to this day.
But more than anything, those Mancunians steeped in the history of both Clubs know one thing. This is a zero sum game. For City to win, United HAVE to lose and vice versa. There can only be one dominant Club in Manchester and each set of fans believe that they are their club are the chosen ones. In the current battling in the Premier League, they aren't just fighting for the title, they are fighting against a humiliating and long fall towards bankruptcy, relegation and obscurity. We have to win. Our lives depend on it.
