Artists "Selling Out" vs. "Crossing Over"

[r00m112]

Originally Posted by EastCoastPapi

Originally Posted by EastCoastPapi

Originally Posted by IncredibleEv

sometimes the label pressures a certain artist to make more radio-friendly songs and will even set them up with writers and producers to make it happen.

these artists are pretty much sellouts for money (wayne, snoop, fat joe, jim jones, ja rule).

some artists can create their own music which can cross over onto mainstream radio. these are more cross over artists and don't have to sacrifice their own creativity (Jay-z, Nas).

I.E. wayne came with some i shot myself and im 15-17 and i bust my guns and sell coke which was false since day one. He wanted to be like baby, BG, JUVE, and even No Limit... He gained success but wasn't thee best than even Big tymers out shined him. Came with 500 degreez tryna diss juve and was on jay heavy a little before and then with all that iceberg etc. etc., Then went the 50/ dip route and came with squad up mixtapes non stop non stop gained a lil buzz in the street. Wayne was broke than he'll tell u that... Carter was entirely different, he flowed different, sounded different, came with more a street swag but nice. mixtape mixtape etc. etc. getting really hot.. than bapes, sizzurp, dip set driding, etc etc etc, now from carter 2-3-now wallet chains, tight jeans, he became a fake guiter player, with a rock album on thee way, what mad auto tune tracks and maybe an entire auto tune album. Went from good bars, some great flows here and there, to wasting his time on the track breathing and saying anything, mostly which makes no sense.

I mean u can go deeper but overall he drides every trend

QFT. I actually remember around the time of the the first two albums, "The Block is Hot" and "Lights Out," he was stillgetting outshined by everyone else in Cash Money. Who knows, maybe that's what drove him to what he does today, but I'm not feeling it at all.

 

[wushumast3r]

It's such a fine line between selling out and crossing over. Some will argue that anyone who has achieved any mainstream success has sold out in a way. Inmy opinion, selling out is when an artist does something completely antithetical to who they are and who they are marketed as in an attempt to make money. NowI know that as an artist, you always want to change your sound, but there's an extent to how far that goes. Take for example that new Tyrese track. Perfectexample of selling out. It's some autotuned crap over a trance beat. Not even pop... trance.

 

[cb94]

Originally Posted by r00m112

Originally Posted by CB94

Originally Posted by r00m112

Originally Posted by CB94

Originally Posted by r00m112

Originally Posted by CB94

Originally Posted by r00m112

Originally Posted by CB94

One man's terrorist is another man's hero..

Care to elaborate? I see what you are trying to say, but I'm not sure how that totally applies here.

It's a numbers game. In order to successfully "sell out", somebody's gotta buy the $+!%. Therefore, somebody is getting what they feel their money is worth. The artist isn't complaining because his supporters are supplied and hopefully his needs are met in the process. Everybody wins. That's the "Hero" angle.

I don't think it's a numbers game at all. I mean, someone could take the approach of intending to "sell out" with the direction they take their music and still flop big time. Look at Fat Joe's latest album.

Same game. Unfavorable outcome...

But just because he didn't sell records, you are going to say he didn't sell out?

That's the opposite of what I said

Ok, enough of the one liners and actually explain your point, how about that?

@!+%% don't rush me...I was busy.. anyway.. the point is that it's a numbers game..a wager..a gamble of sorts. You're wagering X-amount of"respect" against the odds, hoping that the monetary payout will be substantial. Some cats win. Others lose. It's all the same game though.It's a matter of priorites and what's most important to the artist: hisi ntegrity or his bank statements. Strong cases can be made for either one.

 

[an dee 51o]

Originally Posted by r00m112

The Nas song is probably less commercial, but it does use the beat from an old Sting song.

Ain't no way that "The Message" is commercial at all.

 

[r00m112]

Originally Posted by CB94

Originally Posted by r00m112

Originally Posted by CB94

Originally Posted by r00m112

Originally Posted by CB94

Originally Posted by r00m112

Originally Posted by CB94

Originally Posted by r00m112

Originally Posted by CB94

One man's terrorist is another man's hero..

Care to elaborate? I see what you are trying to say, but I'm not sure how that totally applies here.

It's a numbers game. In order to successfully "sell out", somebody's gotta buy the $+!%. Therefore, somebody is getting what they feel their money is worth. The artist isn't complaining because his supporters are supplied and hopefully his needs are met in the process. Everybody wins. That's the "Hero" angle.

I don't think it's a numbers game at all. I mean, someone could take the approach of intending to "sell out" with the direction they take their music and still flop big time. Look at Fat Joe's latest album.

Same game. Unfavorable outcome...

But just because he didn't sell records, you are going to say he didn't sell out?

That's the opposite of what I said

Ok, enough of the one liners and actually explain your point, how about that?

@!+%% don't rush me...I was busy.. anyway.. the point is that it's a numbers game..a wager..a gamble of sorts. You're wagering X-amount of "respect" against the odds, hoping that the monetary payout will be substantial. Some cats win. Others lose. It's all the same game though. It's a matter of priorites and what's most important to the artist: hisi ntegrity or his bank statements. Strong cases can be made for either one.

That's all I was looking for my dude, and now I can see your point of view, and yes I agree.

 

[r00m112]

Originally Posted by wuSHUMast3r

It's such a fine line between selling out and crossing over. Some will argue that anyone who has achieved any mainstream success has sold out in a way. In my opinion, selling out is when an artist does something completely antithetical to who they are and who they are marketed as in an attempt to make money. Now I know that as an artist, you always want to change your sound, but there's an extent to how far that goes. Take for example that new Tyrese track. Perfect example of selling out. It's some autotuned crap over a trance beat. Not even pop... trance.

I think you pretty much defined it perfectly. If we use your definition, it's a lot easier to classify which cats fall into this categoryversus just gaining mainstream success based on doing what they do.

 

[r00m112]

Originally Posted by an dee 51o

Originally Posted by r00m112

The Nas song is probably less commercial, but it does use the beat from an old Sting song.

Ain't no way that "The Message" is commercial at all.

I disagree. Are you familiar with the original song by Sting "Shape of my Heart" where the beat was taken from? Sting is a mainstreamartist, even pop in some senses, and when I hear a rapper use a beat from that type of song, commercial comes to mind.

 

[fac3 tak30v312]

I think some of you guys don't understand what it means to sell out vs a cross over artists

Selling out is basically changing up your whole style to what ever is "hot" or mainstream at the moment .. Kanye's 808s and heartbreak can beseen as that, but it was more artistic/conceptual than using autotune to make a catchy hook, so I would put that in a grey area ...

Whereas crossing over is taking what is uniquely you and either changing the direction of the mainstream towards you (this is rarely done) or adapting yourstyle/lyrics so it reaches a broader audience

So you gotta ask yourself whoever you're referring to did they have a style of their own to begin with or were they just a copycat act to begin with that alabel is trying to plug in as fast as they can so they could make as much as they can

See now Lil Wayne is a finicky topic since I don't view him as a rapper and he wasn't groomed to be a true rapper .. In every sense of the word he wasgroomed to be a pop star and that's just what he is .. faulting for his changes to me is like attacking Beyonce or Rihanna for changing their style ...What's being and basically has already been done to him was following the 60s Motown model of taking R&B stars and changing them into Pop icons

 

[Master Zik]

There's no difference anymore. I remember if you did a commercial for Pepsi you were selling out. Now you just getting your hustle on. That's why Itook it out of my vocabulary.

Musically, it's even worse since the fanbase of hip hop who are actually consumers have increased and are open/accept more !!@#.

You could say Kanye sold out with 808s but it wouldn't be the case if Diddy di it since he aint !!@# to begin with when it comes to selling out/keeping itreal" Either way the !!@# was whack tho(auto tune). The whole selling out thing comes down to a matter of opinion.

At the end of the day when it comes to the music I feel artists should keep it real with their fans and say what I say "I can never sell out cuz I neverbought in"

 

[r00m112]

Originally Posted by fac3 tak30v312


See now Lil Wayne is a finicky topic since I don't view him as a rapper and he wasn't groomed to be a true rapper .. In every sense of the word he was groomed to be a pop star and that's just what he is

Can you expand on this? I remember when i first heard him on B.G.'s True Story, he must have been what, 12 years old? Then when I heard"Tha Block is Hot" and "Lights Out" I thought he was just following the Cash Money formula of that time. Then he started to grow with 500Degreez, and the Carter 1, where many felt he really matured as a lyracist. After that, things went in a different direction.

 

[eastcoastpapi]

Originally Posted by fac3 tak30v312

I think some of you guys don't understand what it means to sell out vs a cross over artists

Selling out is basically changing up your whole style to what ever is "hot" or mainstream at the moment " (WAYNE iceberg, bapes, chopscrew, dipset, wallet chains, guiter, auto tune, etc)

Whereas crossing over is taking what is uniquely you and either changing the direction of the mainstream towards you (this is rarely done) or adapting your style/lyrics so it reaches a broader audience

So you gotta ask yourself whoever you're referring to did they have a style of their own to begin with or were they just a copycat act to begin with that a label is trying to plug in as fast as they can so they could make as much as they can

See now Lil Wayne is a finicky topic since I don't view him as a rapper and he wasn't groomed to be a true rapper .. In every sense of the word he was groomed to be a pop star and that's just what he is ..

See now...... statement is false he was groomed to be a Rap Star from 9 years old.... pulls a baby quote from memory "we fed them boys pizzaand made them rap 10 hours every day" Its like this man.. remember ms and hs??? if u ever wrote a rap the first thing u prolly stated was like ya i murki got etc etc EVERYBODY at the age in the hood does that %#% tell me im wrong. Nobody back than wrote raps when they was young like i goto school i love girlNOOOO.

Saying he was groomed to be pop star is saying juve, bg, and turk were too they were all in the same boat. Wayne was baby's last opition cuz everybodyleft. when Juve came back he was top dude to be pushed

 

[scotthallwithapick]

Originally Posted by r00m112

Originally Posted by an dee 51o

Originally Posted by r00m112

The Nas song is probably less commercial, but it does use the beat from an old Sting song.

Ain't no way that "The Message" is commercial at all.

I disagree. Are you familiar with the original song by Sting "Shape of my Heart" where the beat was taken from? Sting is a mainstream artist, even pop in some senses, and when I hear a rapper use a beat from that type of song, commercial comes to mind.

Yeah. You have no clue what youre talking about.

 

[r00m112]

Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick

Originally Posted by r00m112

Originally Posted by an dee 51o

Originally Posted by r00m112

The Nas song is probably less commercial, but it does use the beat from an old Sting song.

Ain't no way that "The Message" is commercial at all.

I disagree. Are you familiar with the original song by Sting "Shape of my Heart" where the beat was taken from? Sting is a mainstream artist, even pop in some senses, and when I hear a rapper use a beat from that type of song, commercial comes to mind.

Yeah. You have no clue what youre talking about.

So why is your opinion more valuable than anyone elses? At least I backed up my argument, you contributed ZERO.

 

[incredibleev]

a lot of rappers sample commercial songs for their own non-commercial song. you are saying THE MESSAGE should be considered a commercial track because it usesa sting sample? strongly disagree

 

[Master Zik]

Originally Posted by r00m112

Originally Posted by an dee 51o

Originally Posted by r00m112

The Nas song is probably less commercial, but it does use the beat from an old Sting song.

Ain't no way that "The Message" is commercial at all.

I disagree. Are you familiar with the original song by Sting "Shape of my Heart" where the beat was taken from? Sting is a mainstream artist, even pop in some senses, and when I hear a rapper use a beat from that type of song, commercial comes to mind.

So according to you any rap song that samples a commercial/pop song is then commerical itself?

Think about that for a minute.

 

[eastcoastpapi]

The Message is no way commerical at all. The way the beat was sampled w/ cuts etc. wouldnt justify a commerical pop song even if mr.hudson jumped on it

 

[r00m112]

Originally Posted by EastCoastPapi

The Message is no way commerical at all. The way the beat was sampled w/ cuts etc. wouldnt justify a commerical pop song even if mr.hudson jumped on it

Aiight then I stand corrected.

 

[r00m112]

Originally Posted by Master Zik

Originally Posted by r00m112

Originally Posted by an dee 51o

Originally Posted by r00m112

The Nas song is probably less commercial, but it does use the beat from an old Sting song.

Ain't no way that "The Message" is commercial at all.

I disagree. Are you familiar with the original song by Sting "Shape of my Heart" where the beat was taken from? Sting is a mainstream artist, even pop in some senses, and when I hear a rapper use a beat from that type of song, commercial comes to mind.

So according to you any rap song that samples a commercial/pop song is then commerical itself?

Think about that for a minute.

Actually no, that is not the point I was trying to make. Sorry you interpreted it that way. I'm just a fan of all types of old school music,and when I originally heard the Nas song, I looked at it differently because of where I knew the beat from.

 

[fac3 tak30v312]

Originally Posted by EastCoastPapi

Originally Posted by fac3 tak30v312

I think some of you guys don't understand what it means to sell out vs a cross over artists

Selling out is basically changing up your whole style to what ever is "hot" or mainstream at the moment

Whereas crossing over is taking what is uniquely you and either changing the direction of the mainstream towards you (this is rarely done) or adapting your style/lyrics so it reaches a broader audience

So you gotta ask yourself whoever you're referring to did they have a style of their own to begin with or were they just a copycat act to begin with that a label is trying to plug in as fast as they can so they could make as much as they can

See now Lil Wayne is a finicky topic since I don't view him as a rapper and he wasn't groomed to be a true rapper .. In every sense of the word he was groomed to be a pop star and that's just what he is ..

See now...... statement is false he was groomed to be a Rap Star from 9 years old.... pulls a baby quote from memory "we fed them boys pizza and made them rap 10 hours every day" Its like this man.. remember ms and hs??? if u ever wrote a rap the first thing u prolly stated was like ya i murk i got etc etc EVERYBODY at the age in the hood does that %#% tell me im wrong. Nobody back than wrote raps when they was young like i goto school i love girl NOOOO.

Saying he was groomed to be pop star is saying juve, bg, and turk were too they were all in the same boat. Wayne was baby's last opition cuz everybody left. when Juve came back he was top dude to be pushed

Yeah I fudged a bit with in the beginning part (when he was actually groomed to become a rapstar) but why I use pop star is because he got biggerthan rap and it ties into the whole Motown movement to become mainstream (the rap movement ties into motown not Wayne specifically though he is a part of it).. hell his whole flow is more like a singing style than a Rap flow
Either way if you look at what happened when Motown came on the scene its the same movement with happened to rap when Bad Boy came on the scene and like it ornot Wayne is the epitome of that movement ... maybe some you will get it maybe not

But like I said if you judge Wayne of the level you judge ppl like Rihanna, Beyonce, Pink etc.. it'll make a whole lot more sense ... and in essence Drakeis trying to follow the same model

Something else I wanna add to the whole Wayne rock thing I for one hated it especially when he had the audacity to "pose" with a guitar in promqueen, but then I had to think about it for a sec ..

Starting with the Roots the whole bringing rock into rap thing has always been an element, but always remained more rock than hip hop hell Jay-Z dropped twoalbums yet it never caught fire to the level it did when Wayne dropped lollipop ...

Edit
I know some you are gonna flame me for this comparison but this is what came to mind with Wayne and i'm going to expound on it a little more

In the beginning I would say that and i'm only guessing that the vision for wayne was simply for him to maybe become a teen idol and transition that into agreat rapper .. kind of like what they did with MJ and stevie wonder and tried to do with bow wow was groom them as child star and hope to change it into adultstars
But with wayne and i'm no expert on the cash money camp he never really blew up or became that teen idol, but he always had a certain star quality to him
Kind of like how there are great actors and then there are movie stars ... you pray to get a movie star and hope he could become a great actor but that isusually not true

I'm skipping ahead a bit so when he began to draw in fans showing that he could craft a good song (as far as we know), then things changed into making hima Rap star (regardless of whatever circumstances that lead to this) by that it means overhauling his image, accentuating his personality a bit more
But what I believe is in that process that "thing", that "star" quality, that "it" factor showed itself to be a lot more potentthan anyone even conceived it could be and instead of a following, Wayne ended up creating a movement not on purpose but accidentally