FREE Palestine! END the Occupation! STOP the Bombings! EDIT: BEGIN THE BOYCOTTS! PLEASE READ

[mo matik]

Originally Posted by mr delorean

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

Wars are started, lands are exchanged, to the victor goes the spoils.

I'm convinced that 90% of people on NT are still barbarians. This simply is not how things work anymore. Maybe 100 years ago this was fine, but in 2009 you cannot just invade a country, take their land, and occupy it as if it is your own. Thats why we have the U.N. and why the Geneva Conventions happened. I cannot beleieve that so many people can be so calouse to the rights of other human beings.

in 2009 women and homosexuals should also be treated with the same respect as anyone else, but hardline islam doesnt uphold that, either. why cherry pick how anything should or shouldnt "work" in 2009?


I don't know what you mean exactly by "hardline" Islam, but I would think you would know that Islam does not condone the prejudiceagainst women, and homosexuality is still not accepted in most of the world, including America, the most modernized country of them all.

Women were treated terribly before the introduction of Islam.

Then Islam brought rights and equality.

After the Prophet (pbuh) passed away, slowly things began to revert back to how things were before Islam was introduced.

You sounded smart until now.

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by mr delorean

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

Wars are started, lands are exchanged, to the victor goes the spoils.

I'm convinced that 90% of people on NT are still barbarians. This simply is not how things work anymore. Maybe 100 years ago this was fine, but in 2009 you cannot just invade a country, take their land, and occupy it as if it is your own. Thats why we have the U.N. and why the Geneva Conventions happened. I cannot believe that so many people can be so calouse to the rights of other human beings.

in 2009 women and homosexuals should also be treated with the same respect as anyone else, but hardline islam doesnt uphold that, either. why cherry pick how anything should or shouldnt "work" in 2009?



This is not a religious debate. I wasn't justifying anything "hard line Islam" does. For the record, Hasidic Jewish people feel the exact sameway about homosexuals and women as "hard line Muslims" do. I posted an article here a few months ago about groups of young Jewish men who went aroundparts or Israel stoning young women for doing something as small as wearing the color red.

Your response had nothing to do with what I was talking about though.

 

[callhimar]

Actually, in that YouTube video, the first guy is right in saying that Huntington drew up this "Clash of Civilizations" idea. He was the first tomention it in the 90's, and then after 9/11 everyone picked it up and ran with it because it was the simplest way to explain why "they" hate"us."

 

[tbone95860]

PAPER: OBAMA CAMP READYTO OPEN UP DIALOGUE WITH HAMAS... DEVELOPING...


The incoming Obama administration is prepared to abandon President Bush's doctrine of isolating Hamas by establishing a channel to the Islamistorganisation, sources close to the transition team say.

The move to open contacts with Hamas - which could be initiated through the US intelligence services - would represent a definitive break with the Bushpresidency's ostracising of the group.

The Guardian has spoken to three people with knowledge of the discussions in the Obama camp.

There is no talk of Obama approving direct diplomatic negotiations with Hamas early on in his administration, but he is being urged by advisers to initiatelow-level or clandestine approaches, and there is growing recognition in Washington that the policy of ostracising Hamas is counter-productive.

A tested course would be to start contacts through Hamas and the US intelligence services - similar to the secret process through which the US engaged withthe PLO in the 1970s. Israel did not become aware of the contacts until much later.

Richard Haass, a diplomat under both presidents Bush who was named by a number of news organisations this week as Obama's choice for Middle East envoy, supports low level contacts with Hamas provided there is a ceasefire in place and aHamas-Fatah reconciliation emerges.

Another potential contender for a foreign policy role in the Obama administration suggested the president-elect would not be bound by the Bush doctrine ofisolating Hamas. "This is going to be an administration that is committed to negotiating with critical parties on critical issues," they said.

There are a number of options that would avoid a politically toxic scenario for Obama of seeming to give legitimacy to Hamas.

"Secret envoys, multilateral six-party talk-like approaches. The total isolation of Hamas that we promulgated under Bush is going to end," saidSteve Clemons, the director of the American Strategy Programme at the New America Foundation.

"You could do something through the Europeans. You could invent a structure that is multilateral. It is going to be hard for the Neocons toswallow," he said. "I think it is going to happen.

However, one Middle East expert close to the transition team warned: "It is highly unlikely that they will be public about it."

The two weeks since Israel launched its military campaign against Gaza have heightened anticipation abouthow Obama intends to deal with the Middle East. He adopted a strongly pro-Israel position during the election campaign, as did his erstwhile opponent andchoice for secretary of state, Hillary Clinton. However, it is widely thought Obama will adopt a more even-handed approach once he is president.

Obama's main priority now, in the remaining days before his inauguration, is to ensure the crisis does not rob him of the chance to set his own foreignpolicy agenda, rather than merely react to events.

"We will be perceived to be weak and feckless if we are perceived to be on the margins, unable to persuade the Israelis, unable to work with theinternational community to end this," said Aaron David Miller, a former state department adviser on the Middle East.

"Unless he is prepared to adopt a policy that is tougher, fairer and smarter than both of his predecessors you might as well hang aclosed-for-the-season sign on any chance of America playing an effective role in defusing the current crisis or the broader crisis," he said.

Obama has defined himself in part by his willingness to talk to America's enemies. But the president-elect would be wary of being seen to givelegitimacy to Hamas as a consequence of the war in Gaza.

Bruce Hoffman, a counterterrorism expert at the Georgetown school of foreign service, said it was unlikely Obama would move to initiate contacts with Hamasunless the radical faction in Damascus was crippled by the conflict in Gaza. "This would really be dependent on Hamas's military wing having suffereda real, almost decisive, drubbing."

Even with such caveats, there is growing agreement, among Republicans as well as Democrats, on the need to engage Hamas to achieve a sustainable peace inthe Middle East - even among Obama's close advisers.

In an article published on Wednesday on the website of Foreign Affairs, but apparently written before the fighting in Gaza, Haass, who is president of theCouncil on Foreign Relations writes: "If the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas continues to hold and a Hamas-PA reconciliation emerges, the Obamaadministration should deal with the joint Palestinian leadership and authorise low-level contact between US officials and Hamas in Gaza."

The article was written with Martin Indyk, a former US ambassador to Israel and an adviser to the incoming secretary of state, Hillary Clinton.

"The change of perceptions is underway," said Alistair Crooke, director of the Conflicts Forum who was a former security adviser to the EU'sMiddle East envoy. "However, it hasn't translated yet into something substantive."

Last month, General Anthony Zinni, who was Bush's envoy to the Middle East, called on Obama to enage Hamas and move quickly to reach a peace deal.

The willingness for conditional engagement with Hamas marks a sharp break with the world view of the Bush administration.

Obama has said repeatedly that restoring America's image in the world would rank among the top priorities of his administration, and there has beenwidespread praise for his choice of Hillary Clinton as secretary of state and Jim Jones, the former Marine Corps commandant, as his national securityadviser.

He is expected to demonstrate that commitment to charting a new foreign policy within days when the president-elect is expected to name a roster of envoyswho will take charge of key foreign policy areas: Iran, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, India-Pakistan, and North Korea.

Both Obama and Clinton adopted solidly pro-Israel positions during the election campaign. Last May, Obama sacked an adviser, Rob Malley, after it emerged hehad met Hamas officials while working for the International Crisis Group.

In June, Obama told the Israeli lobbying group Aipac he supported Jerusalem as the undivided capital of Israel. That runs contrary to longstanding policythat the future of Jerusalem be decided through negotiation between Israel and the Palestinians.

In a visit to Israel one month later, Obama said he identified with efforts to protect Israeli cities from Hamas rockets.

Obama has further frustrated and confused those who had been looking to the incoming administration for a more even-handed approach to theIsraeli-Palestinian conflict by his refusal to make any substantive comment on Israel's military campaign on Gaza, nearly two weeks on.

He told a press conference on Wednesday: "We cannot be sending a message to the world that there are two different administrations conducting foreignpolicy. Until I take office, it would be imprudent of me to start sending out signals that somehow we are running foreign policy when I am not legallyauthorised to do so."

He added: "This silence is not as a consequence of a lack of concern."

 

[mr delorean]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Originally Posted by mr delorean

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

Wars are started, lands are exchanged, to the victor goes the spoils.

I'm convinced that 90% of people on NT are still barbarians. This simply is not how things work anymore. Maybe 100 years ago this was fine, but in 2009 you cannot just invade a country, take their land, and occupy it as if it is your own. Thats why we have the U.N. and why the Geneva Conventions happened. I cannot beleieve that so many people can be so calouse to the rights of other human beings.

in 2009 women and homosexuals should also be treated with the same respect as anyone else, but hardline islam doesnt uphold that, either. why cherry pick how anything should or shouldnt "work" in 2009?

I don't know what you mean exactly by "hardline" Islam, but I would think you would know that Islam does not condone the prejudice against women, and homosexuality is still not accepted in most of the world, including America, the most modernized country of them all.

Women were treated terribly before the introduction of Islam.

Then Islam brought rights and equality.

After the Prophet (pbuh) passed away, slowly things began to revert back to how things were before Islam was introduced.

You sounded smart until now.

i dont care what does or does not sound smart to you. here it is, simplified, for you: if you were an openly gay individual, would you feelsafer living in the US, or an islamic middle eastern/african nation? i am convinced you wont answer that honestly.

 

[theconditioner]

Interesting article, Tbone. I really hope that the Obama administration engages with Hamas, but i'm very skeptical at this point.

 

[paliplaya2010]

Originally Posted by mr delorean

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

Wars are started, lands are exchanged, to the victor goes the spoils.

I'm convinced that 90% of people on NT are still barbarians. This simply is not how things work anymore. Maybe 100 years ago this was fine, but in 2009 you cannot just invade a country, take their land, and occupy it as if it is your own. Thats why we have the U.N. and why the Geneva Conventions happened. I cannot beleieve that so many people can be so calouse to the rights of other human beings.

in 2009 women and homosexuals should also be treated with the same respect as anyone else, but hardline islam doesnt uphold that, either. why cherry pick how anything should or shouldnt "work" in 2009?



first of all islam brought liberty to women, get your facts straight. and i believe in a country like us and other not religion based governments homosexualsshould have the same rights as anyone, but does christianity condone homosexuals? so would a christian based government condone homosexuals, same thing forislam. if that isnt convincing i dont no what is

 

[callhimar]

mr delorean

Not going to respond to what I said?

 

[tylerdub]

Originally Posted by ThunderChunk69

Originally Posted by Praise The X I

MCDONALDS
BURGER KING
COKE
PEPSI
STARBUCKS
KFC
FUDD RUCKERS
PIZZA HUT
CHILIES
THEY ARE GIVING 100% OF PROFIT TO ISRAEL TO CONTINUE THE ASSAULT ON PALESTINE! 100% PROFIT!!!!! BOYCOTTTTTT!

noted

I am going out to buy 1 of something from each of these fine businesses.

 

[pull a fredo]

Originally Posted by tylerdub

Originally Posted by ThunderChunk69

Originally Posted by Praise The X I

MCDONALDS
BURGER KING
COKE
PEPSI
STARBUCKS
KFC
FUDD RUCKERS
PIZZA HUT
CHILIES
THEY ARE GIVING 100% OF PROFIT TO ISRAEL TO CONTINUE THE ASSAULT ON PALESTINE! 100% PROFIT!!!!! BOYCOTTTTTT!

noted

I am going out to buy 1 of something from each of these fine businesses.

+1

Except for Fudd Ruckers. The nearest one is 91 miles away.

 

[tbone95860]

UN Security Council calls for Gaza cease-fire...

Attack on Israel from Lebanon threatens 2nd front...

Pressure increases on as toll rises...

Olmert: Army could step up op in Gaza...

Hotline opened after leaks of military secrets...

Under pressure at UN...

TIME MAG: WHY ISRAEL CAN'T WIN...

 

[mo matik]

Originally Posted by mr delorean

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Originally Posted by mr delorean

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

Wars are started, lands are exchanged, to the victor goes the spoils.

I'm convinced that 90% of people on NT are still barbarians. This simply is not how things work anymore. Maybe 100 years ago this was fine, but in 2009 you cannot just invade a country, take their land, and occupy it as if it is your own. Thats why we have the U.N. and why the Geneva Conventions happened. I cannot beleieve that so many people can be so calouse to the rights of other human beings.

in 2009 women and homosexuals should also be treated with the same respect as anyone else, but hardline islam doesnt uphold that, either. why cherry pick how anything should or shouldnt "work" in 2009?

I don't know what you mean exactly by "hardline" Islam, but I would think you would know that Islam does not condone the prejudice against women, and homosexuality is still not accepted in most of the world, including America, the most modernized country of them all.

Women were treated terribly before the introduction of Islam.

Then Islam brought rights and equality.

After the Prophet (pbuh) passed away, slowly things began to revert back to how things were before Islam was introduced.

You sounded smart until now.

i dont care what does or does not sound smart to you. here it is, simplified, for you: if you were an openly gay individual, would you feel safer living in the US, or an islamic middle eastern/african nation? i am convinced you wont answer that honestly.


Of course I would feel safer in the US, but the US is also the most modern country in the world, yet homosexuals still don't have rights andare still persecuted.

How can you expect a 3rd world country to modernize faster than the US?

As a Muslim I would feel more safe in the Middle East rather than in the US, but the US is more modern. Prejudice and persecution exists everywhere, not justin the Middle East.

I don't see your point. The only thing I see from your initial post is a misinterpretation of Islamic teachings, which I was correcting you on.

 

[mr delorean]

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

Originally Posted by mr delorean

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

Wars are started, lands are exchanged, to the victor goes the spoils.

I'm convinced that 90% of people on NT are still barbarians. This simply is not how things work anymore. Maybe 100 years ago this was fine, but in 2009 you cannot just invade a country, take their land, and occupy it as if it is your own. Thats why we have the U.N. and why the Geneva Conventions happened. I cannot believe that so many people can be so calouse to the rights of other human beings.

in 2009 women and homosexuals should also be treated with the same respect as anyone else, but hardline islam doesnt uphold that, either. why cherry pick how anything should or shouldnt "work" in 2009?

This is not a religious debate. I wasn't justifying anything "hard line Islam" does. For the record, Hasidic Jewish people feel the exact same way about homosexuals and women as "hard line Muslims" do. I posted an article here a few months ago about groups of young Jewish men who went around parts or Israel stoning young women for doing something as small as wearing the color red.

Your response had nothing to do with what I was talking about though.



the minute your argument moves to "their side is just as bad as our side", all credibility is lost. i dont have a dog in this fightbecause if it were up to me the US would immediately drop all global tax funded foreign aid, especially to israel.

you can play the political word game as long as you want, but it is intellectually dishonest to pretend this issue isnt religion-based. whether this is 2009,or 1909, i posted before that might is right. im not doing an editorial on the morality of it, but it is reality. as far as the UN goes, it is currently animpotent joke of an organization with absolutely no clout, and the geneva convention has been rendered only worth adhering to when convenient. after all, its2009, right? twenty-first century warfare is an unconventional urban battlefield where those rules are mostly obsolete.

 

[mr delorean]

Originally Posted by theconditioner

Interesting article, Tbone. I really hope that the Obama administration engages with Hamas, but i'm very skeptical at this point.

obama is already on record pledging the full support of the US to israel, and that israel must exist as a state by any means necessary. i dontknow that he left much of a door open for meaningful negotiations after more of the same political rhetoric weve heard for decades.

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by mr delorean

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

Originally Posted by mr delorean

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

Wars are started, lands are exchanged, to the victor goes the spoils.

I'm convinced that 90% of people on NT are still barbarians. This simply is not how things work anymore. Maybe 100 years ago this was fine, but in 2009 you cannot just invade a country, take their land, and occupy it as if it is your own. Thats why we have the U.N. and why the Geneva Conventions happened. I cannot believe that so many people can be so calouse to the rights of other human beings.

in 2009 women and homosexuals should also be treated with the same respect as anyone else, but hardline islam doesnt uphold that, either. why cherry pick how anything should or shouldnt "work" in 2009?

This is not a religious debate. I wasn't justifying anything "hard line Islam" does. For the record, Hasidic Jewish people feel the exact same way about homosexuals and women as "hard line Muslims" do. I posted an article here a few months ago about groups of young Jewish men who went around parts or Israel stoning young women for doing something as small as wearing the color red.

Your response had nothing to do with what I was talking about though.

the minute your argument moves to "their side is just as bad as our side", all credibility is lost. i dont have a dog in this fight because if it were up to me the US would immediately drop all global tax funded foreign aid, especially to israel.

you can play the political word game as long as you want, but it is intellectually dishonest to pretend this issue isnt religion-based. whether this is 2009, or 1909, i posted before that might is right. im not doing an editorial on the morality of it, but it is reality. as far as the UN goes, it is currently an impotent joke of an organization with absolutely no clout, and the geneva convention has been rendered only worth adhering to when convenient. after all, its 2009, right? twenty-first century warfare is an unconventional urban battlefield where those rules are mostly obsolete.


But it really isn't religion based, and the longer it takes people to realize that then the longer this whole situation is going to beportrayed as "us" against "them."

This is an issue of nationalism. It only happens that there are two separate religions pitted against one another. The Palestinian people want their land backfrom the Zionist occupiers.

I wasn't going to the their side is just as bad as our side argument, but I was just stating the facts. This is what happens in the ultra-religious Jewishcommunities because it needs to be shown. People need to understand that it isn't just some crazy Muslim people, but crazy everyone who are stuck in ultraConservative old ways.

Those rules should not be obsolete when pertaining to the right to freedom of an entire people. When an apartheid system is set up something needs to be doneabout it, and when land is stolen from people who had settled it for centuries the something needs to be done.

 

[theconditioner]

Originally Posted by mr delorean

Originally Posted by theconditioner

Interesting article, Tbone. I really hope that the Obama administration engages with Hamas, but i'm very skeptical at this point.

obama is already on record pledging the full support of the US to israel, and that israel must exist as a state by any means necessary. i dont know that he left much of a door open for meaningful negotiations after more of the same political rhetoric weve heard for decades.

I know... http://niketalk.yuku.com/reply/4271066#reply-4271066http://niketalk.yuku.com/reply/4271066#reply-4271066

 

[callhimar]

[h1]Israel 'shelled civilian shelter'[/h1]
Israeli forces shelled a house in the Gaza Strip which they had moved around 110 Palestinians into 24 hours earlier, the UN quotes witnesses as saying.

The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) called it "one of the gravest incidents" since the beginning of the offensive.

The shelling at Zeitoun, a south-east suburb of Gaza City, on 5 January killed some 30 people, the report said.

Israel says it has looked into the allegations and they are unfounded.

Israeli foreign ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said no Israeli soldiers had been in the area on the day the incident was supposed to have happened.

The OCHA report said: "According to several testimonies, on 4 January Israeli foot soldiers evacuated approximately 110 Palestinians into a single-residence house in Zeitoun (half of whom were children) warning them to stay indoors.

"Twenty-four hours later, Israeli forces shelled the home repeatedly, killing approximately 30."

The UN said those who survived and were able walked 2km to the main north-south road to be transported to hospital in civilian vehicles.

"Three children, the youngest of whom was five months old, died upon arrival at the hospital," the report said.

'No safe haven'

Allegra Pacheco, of OCHA in Jerusalem, said they were not accusing the Israelis of a deliberate act, but said the incident needed to be investigated.

She also said they were concerned at claims by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) that ambulances were only allowed access to the neighbourhood on Thursday - four days after the alleged incident.

The ICRC on Thursday accused Israel of failing to fulfil its duty to help wounded civilians in Gaza.

"In Gaza, there is a severe protection of civilians crisis. There is no safe haven, no safe space, for all the civilians, particularly children," Ms Pacheco told the BBC.

"Since the ground operation, the number of children killed has risen by 250%."

An estimated 770 Palestinians and 14 Israelis have died in nearly two weeks of Israel's air and ground offensive against the Palestinian militant group Hamas.

The UN Security Council has called for an immediate ceasefire and the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza.

Unjustifiable.

 

[theconditioner]

Wow. Horrible.

This stuff has got to stop.

http://www.timesonline.co...e_east/article5482850.ece

In that statement, the ICRC said its team had discovered four emaciated children living next to the corpses of their dead mothers in a house on which there were 12 dead bodies lying on mattresses. In another house, they found 15 survivors of the Israeli bombardment, several of them wounded, and, in a third, three corpses.

Meysa Fawzi al Samuni, 19, said soldiers forced her and dozens of others to move into the warehouse-like home of another resident. Two men who left the house to pick up a relative were struck by "a missile or a shell," she said.

"My husband went over to them to help, and then a shell or missile was fired onto the roof of the warehouse. Based on the intensity of the strike, I think it was a missile from an F-16," B'Tselem quoted her as saying.

"After the smoke and dust cleared a bit, I looked around and saw 20-30 people who were dead, and about 20 who were wounded. As far as I know, the dead and wounded who were under the ruins are still there."

 

[theconditioner]

http://www.youtube.com/wa...finkelstein.com/index.php

 

[callhimar]

This is disgusting.

And no one is doing anything to stop it. It really is unbelievable that this can still be allowed to go on while the world just watches.

 

[mo matik]

History continues to repeat itself.

 

[tbone95860]

Israel: At least 300 Hamas gunmen killed in groundop...

 

[hazeleyed honey]

I will wait for other figures to come up. I do not see the IDF as a legitimate source.

Most civilians and doctors (even international doctors) proclaim they have not seen many dead militants compared to actual civilian deaths. Only a few, butmost of the dead have been civilians.

On the news today on some Arab sattelite news channel, I saw a Gazan woman talking saying it is BS that Israel has been killing militants because all she hasbeen seeing is dead families. A grandfather was saying that on the streets all you see is dead bodies of teenagers with head pieces blown off, missing limbs,and some of them are unrecognizable. The kids cross by them all scared they will have the same fate, but he tells the kids to just keep going and there is somuch they can do in order to survive this massacre.

 

[cekpethobce]

 

[thunderchunk69]

Originally Posted by pull a Fredo

Originally Posted by tylerdub

Originally Posted by ThunderChunk69

Originally Posted by Praise The X I

MCDONALDS
BURGER KING
COKE
PEPSI
STARBUCKS
KFC
FUDD RUCKERS
PIZZA HUT
CHILIES
THEY ARE GIVING 100% OF PROFIT TO ISRAEL TO CONTINUE THE ASSAULT ON PALESTINE! 100% PROFIT!!!!! BOYCOTTTTTT!

noted

I am going out to buy 1 of something from each of these fine businesses.

+1
Except for Fudd Ruckers. The nearest one is 91 miles away.

so you're not only supporting war, you're also picking sides... awesome