Ichiro in pursuit of.....Eckstein?

[651akathepaul]

No no...See, you make great points, and I can see exactly why people say he isn't in the argument of the greatest hitter of all time, however, he is stilldoing things that no one has done before, and when he retires it will be more apparent as to why you can throw his name in there.

Every great hitter has/had their specialties. Williams hit over .400 and his OBP was wild, Pujols can hit for power, Ty Cobb was a line drive hitter who couldhit the cover off the ball, Gwynn was a seeing eye single type (by this I mean nothing flashy)...Ichiro just happens to be able to swing at pitches way out ofthe zone and reach on an infield single...So what?

His years of at least 200 hits (Pete Rose had 10, Cobb - 9...Ichiro gets nine straight this year. That's your top 3 ever for 200 hit seasons), hisquickness at reaching 2,000 (by this year), most hits in a season, and the fact his name is already up with Rose and Cobb for his 8th time with a relevant hitstreak all speak for itself...Don't care what anyone says...He's in this argument and will be for sure in 5 years.

 

[juan baller]

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

^When you're talking pure hitters, why should anything but avg and hits matter? Slugging pct?

Not a deciding factor.

Is that you, Joe Morgan?

Because a team of 9 Ichiro's would score 6.6 runs per game (Runs Created per 27 Outs).

A team of Pujols' would score 9.9 runs, Chipper Jones' 8.4 runs, David Wright's 7.7 runs... hell, a team of Jack Cust's would score 6.6 runsper game (same as Ichiro)

 

[651akathepaul]

^ Irrelevant to this argument homie, I'll give you slightly relevent. I'm tellin' you. That's mostly run scoring.

 

[kiddin like jason]

Is that you, Joe Morgan?

I knew there was a reason why I was avoiding this thread.

 

[651akathepaul]

^ Wondering when you would show up? Any thoughts?

 

[juan baller]

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

Every great hitter has/had their specialties. Williams hit over .400 and his OBP was wild, Pujols can hit for power, Ty Cobb was a line drive hitter who could hit the cover off the ball, Gwynn was a seeing eye single type (by this I mean nothing flashy)...Ichiro just happens to be able to swing at pitches way out of the zone and reach on an infield single...So what?

I'm not denying what Ichiro does isn't a skill. My argument is simply that the skill isn't 100% hitting. The ability to reach on an infield singleis mostly due to speed.

Also, if Ichiro lets 4 "pitches way out of the zone" go by, he'd reach first base automatically... as opposed to slapping them for groundballsthat he can only beat out 15% of time at best. That's why a team of Ichiro's would score the same number of runs per games as team of Jack Cust's.

 

[RyGuy45]

i wanna see a .400 avg at the end of the season though. last person i remember coming close was my dads fave player in tony gwynn
Ahh the strike season of '94

Gwynn was batting .394 after 110 games when the strike hit

Remember it like yesterday....and Matt Williams with 43 bombsafter 112 games

 

[651akathepaul]

I'm just arguing for reasons as to why he's in the argument. I never ever said anything about being THE best, or being 100% or anything else for thatmatter.

 

[young halo]

Originally Posted by RyGuy45

i wanna see a .400 avg at the end of the season though. last person i remember coming close was my dads fave player in tony gwynn

Ahh the strike season of '94

Gwynn was batting .394 after 110 games when the strike hit

Remember it like yesterday....and Matt Williams with 43 bombs after 112 games

 

[CP1708]

This is two damn days in a row Osh on my side on somethin.

Need to get a Nash thread goin or somethin

Anywho, as I said, Ichiro is skilled at what he does, slap the ball around, hits bad pitches, yay and yay. But this "he can hit homeruns is he wantstoo"......well since the Mariners do nothing but lose the last 6-7 years with him as their leader, why he don't hit one out when they down late in agame? Why the hell is he still slappin singles so nobody can drive him in?

He gets all these hits because he gets friggin 700 plate appearances a year and never walks. 200 hits great, 500 outs even more great huh?

He is the same as the run and shoot football offense, or a Mike D"Antonio offense, his numbers look sexy because he's out for himself and not winning. See, winning percentage, Ichiro. That's not a good lookin number.


All those guys I listed could either A hit one in the gap, B take a walk, C hit one out (not as much Boggs there, I'll give you that), D hit the samesingle Ichiro hits, E bat in the middle of the lineup and produce runs after runs, F make the pitchers work just as much as Ichiro

Thas a lotta damn letters. Ichiro fouls pitches off, occasionaly gaps one, and usually just slaps a grounder while he sprints with his bat halfway up theline. Again, that is a very tough thing he pulls off, but that don't put his name next to Pujols, Manny, Gwynn, Teddy ballgame etc etc

OVERRATED

 

[juan baller]

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

I'm just arguing for reasons as to why he's in the argument. I never ever said anything about being THE best, or being 100% or anything else for that matter.

By 100% hitting, I meant a lot of the "hits" Ichiro gets are due to his legs not his bat. I'll never understand why being great at legging outgroundballs on pitches way out the strikeout zone should put you in the conversation of best hitter of all-time. Again, even the fastest players can only beatout groundballs only 15% of the time if that... it's much smarter to take the pitch for a ball, work the count in your favor, so you can get something todrive or draw a walk... an added bonus is this tires the pitcher out, increase his pitch count, and allows your teammates to see more of what he'sthrowing.

 

[finnns2003]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

Word. More an Ichiro appreciation type thread. The man is arguably the greatest hitter of all-time.

I hope and pray this is a typo.

A cruel joke.

A hacking

Anything but what is typed up there.

This dude is the most overrated player I have ever seen. Jesus.

shut the hell up. no idea what you're talking about, my god.

that said, ichiro is much appreciated. he and junior are my favorite players ever. can #51 get to 56? i don't know, but i think .400 is more likely.

 

[johndaeyun]

I only wish Ichiro was able to play with Junior in his prime. That would have been something to watch.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by finnns2003

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

Word. More an Ichiro appreciation type thread. The man is arguably the greatest hitter of all-time.

I hope and pray this is a typo.

A cruel joke.

A hacking

Anything but what is typed up there.

This dude is the most overrated player I have ever seen. Jesus.

shut the hell up. no idea what you're talking about, my god.

that said, ichiro is much appreciated. he and junior are my favorite players ever. can #51 get to 56? i don't know, but i think .400 is more likely.

Read the rest of the thread man, I know what I'm talkin about. So do several others.

 

[memp2atl85]

I think MLB teams will screw anybody that gets within arms reach of this record. Like at 40 games, pitch to them one at bat and then walk them after that justso Joe DiMaggio can stay in the record books.

For the record the only baseball record I care about is Nolan Ryan's no hitters.

 

[finnns2003]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by finnns2003

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

Word. More an Ichiro appreciation type thread. The man is arguably the greatest hitter of all-time.

I hope and pray this is a typo.

A cruel joke.

A hacking

Anything but what is typed up there.

This dude is the most overrated player I have ever seen. Jesus.

shut the hell up. no idea what you're talking about, my god.

that said, ichiro is much appreciated. he and junior are my favorite players ever. can #51 get to 56? i don't know, but i think .400 is more likely.

Read the rest of the thread man, I know what I'm talkin about. So do several others.

Give me a #@^^$@ break. You sound clueless, like a lot of others on here. Self-proclaimed 'sports gurus'

We're talking about a guy who owns a .330+ batting average in nine seasons. I've watched hundreds and hundreds of Ichiro's ballgames, and the guyfrom day one to present day still amazes. His ability to find a hole in the infield, the ability for the countless 4-4 and 5-5 games. Breaking a record from solong ago, held by Sisler, has anyone else come close to 262 hits? 3000 hits between two professional baseball leagues.

To talk about his inability to walk is, again, sounding clueless. It has never been his style to walk, yet he still keeps strikeouts to a minimum and makes themost of at-bats. For a guy who has probably watched six Mariners games in the last nine years, stop trying to sound all high and mighty, you don't know#%@^@. I've played this game long enough to know that having a career low BA of .303 is damn good. Having a career high of .372 is even better. Top 5batting average five times in nine years is damn good. Leading the league in hits five times. Best leadoff hitter in the game. This despite having virtually noprotection his entire career. Jose Lopez? Beltre? Vidro? You have to be kidding me.

 

[kiddin like jason]

finnns cracks me up every time.

 

[japanair21]

Originally Posted by Kiddin Like Jason

finnns cracks me up every time.

I hate you. I just felt like I should say that, because it's been too long since we've clashed.


That said, Ichiro is overrated?

 

[DeadsetAce]

the sarcasm BETTER be strong in thread...

 

[daglove20]

Ask the Angels, A's, and Rangers if they think Ichiro is overrated....and how many leadoff men get IBB?

 

[tuna629]

lol the hate for ichiro is strong in this thread ... i bet half of you'all are koreans ...

definitely appreciated. if anyone in the game today is going to even get close to that record (or even pete rose's record), it's him. and this iscoming from an Angels fan!

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by finnns2003

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by finnns2003

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

Word. More an Ichiro appreciation type thread. The man is arguably the greatest hitter of all-time.

I hope and pray this is a typo.

A cruel joke.

A hacking

Anything but what is typed up there.

This dude is the most overrated player I have ever seen. Jesus.

shut the hell up. no idea what you're talking about, my god.

that said, ichiro is much appreciated. he and junior are my favorite players ever. can #51 get to 56? i don't know, but i think .400 is more likely.

Read the rest of the thread man, I know what I'm talkin about. So do several others.

Give me a #@^^$@ break. You sound clueless, like a lot of others on here. Self-proclaimed 'sports gurus'

We're talking about a guy who owns a .330+ batting average in nine seasons. I've watched hundreds and hundreds of Ichiro's ballgames, and the guy from day one to present day still amazes. His ability to find a hole in the infield, the ability for the countless 4-4 and 5-5 games. Breaking a record from so long ago, held by Sisler, has anyone else come close to 262 hits? 3000 hits between two professional baseball leagues.

To talk about his inability to walk is, again, sounding clueless. It has never been his style to walk, yet he still keeps strikeouts to a minimum and makes the most of at-bats. For a guy who has probably watched six Mariners games in the last nine years, stop trying to sound all high and mighty, you don't know #%@^@. I've played this game long enough to know that having a career low BA of .303 is damn good. Having a career high of .372 is even better. Top 5 batting average five times in nine years is damn good. Leading the league in hits five times. Best leadoff hitter in the game. This despite having virtually no protection his entire career. Jose Lopez? Beltre? Vidro? You have to be kidding me.

I already said, he's good at what he does, slapping the ball around, pickin up those singles. Not sure why that hurts so much, but obviously some peopleare bleedin over this.

But as stated, I listed a dozen or so that were/are better hitters, and thinking on it last night, I can add Frank Thomas as well. Anyhoo, when you arecouting those countless 4-4 nights with 4 singles, and usually a loss, do you ever wonder why in a big moment in the 8th inning, the supposedly "hithomeruns when he wants too" Ichiro, doesn't in fact hit a home run? Why is that?

All those singles and steals he piles up 30 games under .500 don't impress me. And as stated previously, I live 3 hours from Seattle, it is the"local" team here in Oregon, which means radio coverage, tv coverage, newspaper coverage, the works. So rest assured, I've seen more then 6games.

Face it, he's nice at what he does, but what he doesn't do is hit for power, take pitches/walks, doesn't lead his team to wins, he just goes outthere everyday to get his 5 plate appearances, and get his 2 singles a night, steal a bag, lose the game, and then do it again the next day. Meanwhile youguys conitnue to worship him while even his own teammates question whether he just wants to "get his". Again, media coverage, there's a lot oftalk out here. I hear lots.

Reyes, Rollins, Hanley, Soriano, Pedroia, all better lead off hitters, and guys I'd rather have on my team. And I'm sure I forgot one or two.

 

[emmanuel goldstein]

ichiro ... one of greatest ever? ... HA ... ... ... you guys kill me

 

[incredibleev]

he is NOT one of the greatest hitters ever

there are tons of hitters in history who hit for ichiro-type averages but also had great OBP and actually drove in runs. Arod and Pujols come to mind, and bothwould be ahead of Ichiro on an all time list.

He's a great hitter but not an all timer. I guess you can consider his consistency in average as all time great, but there are way more well roundedhitters out there and in history.

 

[finnns2003]

Originally Posted by CP1708

I already said, he's good at what he does, slapping the ball around, pickin up those singles. Not sure why that hurts so much, but obviously some people are bleedin over this.

But as stated, I listed a dozen or so that were/are better hitters, and thinking on it last night, I can add Frank Thomas as well. Anyhoo, when you are couting those countless 4-4 nights with 4 singles, and usually a loss, do you ever wonder why in a big moment in the 8th inning, the supposedly "hit homeruns when he wants too" Ichiro, doesn't in fact hit a home run? Why is that?

All those singles and steals he piles up 30 games under .500 don't impress me. And as stated previously, I live 3 hours from Seattle, it is the "local" team here in Oregon, which means radio coverage, tv coverage, newspaper coverage, the works. So rest assured, I've seen more then 6 games.

Face it, he's nice at what he does, but what he doesn't do is hit for power, take pitches/walks, doesn't lead his team to wins, he just goes out there everyday to get his 5 plate appearances, and get his 2 singles a night, steal a bag, lose the game, and then do it again the next day. Meanwhile you guys conitnue to worship him while even his own teammates question whether he just wants to "get his". Again, media coverage, there's a lot of talk out here. I hear lots.

Reyes, Rollins, Hanley, Soriano, Pedroia, all better lead off hitters, and guys I'd rather have on my team. And I'm sure I forgot one or two.

You continue to ignore the factors. Number one the guy is a leadoff hitter, what's with the obsession of homers? His job is to get on base,period. You mention that his stats come with the team '30 games below .500', but that just proves my point. He has absolutely no protection in thelineup. He's been playing with scrubs for a majority of his career. Vidro, Randy Winn, Beltre, Lopez, Betancourt, Aurilia, I don't care who you plugin, they've been awful.

Second point, leading a team to wins. I seem to remember baseball being a 'team' sport. If the guy is doing his job, what's the problem? Again,we're talking about a guy who's had a .350 BA four times in his nine year career. You sound like a majority of the critics who simply don't get it.Thinking he is all about padding his stats. Simply ridiculous. His teammates question him? Are you #@^$#&# kidding me? Guys like Carlos Silva who end upwith ERA's as high as 7 or 8?? Or J.J. Putz who hasn't amounted to half of the ballplayer Ichiro is? I mean c'mon. His 'teammates' are thereason Seattle has missed the playoffs for eight seasons. Give me a list of who called him out, I'll give you ten reasons that player would've beengone on any other ballclub. Bavasi was a fool in his player personnel decisions, don't blame the one guy who went out every night and excelled.

jose reyes with his .286 BA? you'd rather have a guy who has hit .300 just twice since he's been in the majors, over a guy who's hit .303 or higherevery year he's been in the league? pathetic, absolutely pathetic. ichiro has just as many MVP's and batting titles as all the guys you listed, ormore.