IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[longstroke]

what one takes away from anything is solely up to that person. i just posted this article to show that even one of the biggest celtics fans and one the biggest basketball followers since the league started to shape itself has kobe as a top 10 player.

But you said this,

Originally Posted by franc  


the point of the article is that kobe has achieved his success his way. just because he has achieved his success in the way that works for him and not in the way you would like does not discredit his achievements and where he stands among the all-time greats. kobe is top 10.

How do you know what the point of the article really was, did you write it?

Most good writers WANT the reader to develop their own opinion of what they put out there, which is exactly what Simmons did in this article and it worked on you.

But just because Simmons suggests that Kobe Bryant is in his top ten, does not mean that those who does not feel that way, should just up and change their minds.

Oh, Bill Simmons said it, we must agree. The Kobe fans on Nike Talk are going to be mad at us if we don't.

 

[darthska]

[quote name="TheGoldenChild"]just admit you dont like kobe and we can move on.. cause you're making it sound like kobe is comparable to smush parker[/quote]Smush Parker? He said he has Kobe in his top 15. You think he has Smush in his top 15?

 

[essential1]

Can't wait till Kobe retires so we won't have to hear the Stan's.

I guess, but you will hear about his career over and over again from every analyst, and basketball historian.

 

[sea manup]

It's the same reason that hookers get attention. It's not because they are actually good at having sex.

are you implying kobe is not actually good at basketball?

 

[alphawolf]

after reading that article i would love to have a partner in crime like kobe. Dude is the kind of guy that would have fought a battle til his death.

 

[sb]

But you said this,

How do you know what the point of the article really was, did you write it?

Most good writers WANT the reader to develop their own opinion of what they put out there, which is exactly what Simmons did in this article and it worked on you.

But just because Simmons suggests that Kobe Bryant is in his top ten, does not mean that those who does not feel that way, should just up and change their minds.

Oh, Bill Simmons said it, we must agree. The Kobe fans on Nike Talk are going to be mad at us if we don't.

the article is just another person that has kobe on their top 10 and is a respected writer that knows the history of the nba.

 

[do be doo]

Of course simmons will hype kobe up

Gotta sell them books.

 

[sb]

Of course simmons will hype kobe up
Gotta sell them books.

simmons doesnt hype kobe. simmons has always argued kobes path to where he is today but never has argued the results of the path. props where props are due.

 

[Jordan8]

How Kobe’s All-Time Record is Average

http://wagesofwins.com/2012/12/06/how-kobes-all-time-record-is-average/

What’s this got to do with Kobe? Glad you asked! Let’s do a similar experiment. Let’s pretend an average player at each position across roughly the span of Kobe’s career took the same number of shots as Kobe. For simplicity, I’ve assumed the players get to the line at the same rate as the average player at their position (Spoiler alert, this will be important) How would said players fare?

Position Points Total All-Time NBA Rank

Point Guard 27,209 9th

Shooting Guard 27,762 7th

Small Forward 28,2501 7th

Power Forward 28,080 7th

Center 29,111 6th

Huh! A very interesting trend emerges! If an average player in any of the given positions could have taken as many shots as Kobe, they’d be in the top 10 all-time NBA scoring list! Luckily, Kobe maintains his lead above all of them, just barely in the center’s

 

[Jordan8]

30k points while Jack Taylorin ya whole career = AVERAGE

1 MVP in 17 years = AVERAGE

Not being the best player on your team for most of your chip seasons = AVERAGE

We really comparing a guy who isnt undefeated in the Finals nor was the main asset in 60% of his rings to MJ?

YES WE ARE OVERRATING KOBE IF TOP 5 ALL TIME IS YOUR RATING FOR A GREAT SHOOTER WHO BENEFITTED PLAYING IN LOS ANGELES

 

[alimuhammad]

IMO Kobe would have had a lot more MVPs jf it weren't for the Colorado situation. MVP is more of a media award. He's never been a fan of the media.

Not arguing any other points lol

 

[fanaticlakerfan]

Great contribution Franco.  I would love to ask Bill Russell if he would want Kobe Bryant for a teammate or in a Celtic uniform.Cannot imagine Kobe fitting into any Celtic team from the Russell era,Havlicek/Cowens era,Bird/McHale/Parrish era ,or Pierce/Garnett/Allen  era. Russell respects Kobe's work ethic and that Kobe leads in his own style without any apologies. It is my opinion(notice the word humble was not used-no one here at this site has a humble opinion) Bryant would not be welcome on any team Russell played for ,coached,or had any influence on.

Everyone talks about MJ's or Kobe's drive and pursuit of perfection as if they invented it.  Russell was "that guy" long before they were:he did not,however,take the joy and fun out of the game for his teammates.  Russell's teammates loved him and he loved them. On the court Russell was a genious and fiercely competitive.I cannot imagine him ever hating on a fellow player(maybe a dirty opponent).Off the court Russell was warm and loveable,and silly. Let's face it,his guffaw is one of the alltime greatest.Sometimes I think he would rather laugh than play basketball. Kobe is aptly nicknamed Mamba.  He has the warmth and personality of a pit viper.  His teammates are cowed by him,intimidated by him,cannot play to their abilities because of him.

I'm a laker fan,always have been,always will be. I grew up worshipping Jerry West.  I've rooted for the lakers since 1965 when I was 10. It was always a joy for me until Kobe Bryant took over the team in a hostile takeover after the 3rd championship season with Shaq. For me,Kobe is top 10 maybe.  Kobe could have been top 5 if he simply chose to play smart team ball instead of All for myself Kobe ball. The man has skills only equaled by a few other players in history.Yet he chooses to play a team game as if it is a one on five game.  As this season continues we will see Kobe gun away,ignoring open teammates,driving Dwight Howard from the Lakers and their bright future.  Pau will be wasted and devalued by Kobe until they trade him. Pau was the missing ingrediant that won two championships. Hopefully Kobe will trust Nash when he comes back. He didn't trust Shaq,he doesn't trust Pau,why will he trust Nash? Trusting Nash will mean fewer touches,fewer points,and more winning time.It will also mean a much more efficient Kobe and perhaps a shot at a championship. 

 

[darthska]

[quote name="LONGSTROKE"]Oh, Bill Simmons said it, we must agree. The Kobe fans on Nike Talk are going to be mad at us if we don't.[/quote]Man, if I've thought something like this once, I've thought it a hundred times.

Here's the thing, though, LONGSTROKE: why do you HAVE TO even comment? And no, that's not a suggestive question (suggesting that you keep quiet); it's a genuinely curious one (curious why you have to comment). And the lines of reasoning "I choose to comment because it's a free country" or "Because I can" are elementary cop-outs. F'real: what is so difficult about letting 'them' be?

There are people who think Kobe is that dude, and are ok w/ those that don't; they're not a problem.

There are those that think Kobe is mad overrated, but are ok w/ those that admonish him; they present no problems.

But then there are those that are so staunch in their opinion of Kobe that it just eats them alive that people have a completely different opinion... and it's like it's their life's mission to 'convert' folks. THIS is where these discussions get heated.
- Kobe fans who can't stomach someone putting Mamba outside of Top 5.
- Non-Kobe fans who can't stomach someone putting Mamba inside of top 5.

This thread... every place the discussion of Kobe's rank takes place... gets out of hand when those 2 opposing forces collide.

Because let's be real, there are definitely Kobe fans who fear that if they disagree with an anti-Kobe article, people like you, me, quick, Deuce, cartune, etc. will come thru cosigning multiple facets of the article.

 

[longstroke]

are you implying kobe is not actually good at basketball?

He's very good, and then also great at certain things, while playing the game of basketball.

His decision making while playing the game, is horrendous. However, I've only seen Kobe Bryant play with a legit point guard during the Olympics, then during All Star games. That's where he does not have to make decisions on who to get the ball to, and then when and where. Also defensively, there is no doubt that he is overrated. I don't care as to who he asks to guard at any time or any place.

Team play, on all sides of the ball, is where Kobe Bryant falls incredibly short.

 

[essential1]

I'm a laker fan,always have been,always will be. I grew up worshipping Jerry West.  I've rooted for the lakers since 1965 when I was 10. . 

Typo?

 

[ill steelo]

I grew up worshipping Jerry West.  I've rooted for the lakers since 1965 when I was 10.

3 Posts. Joined Yesterday

Yea, iight.

 

[sea manup]

He's very good, and then also great at certain things, while playing the game of basketball.

His decision making while playing the game, is horrendous. However, I've only seen Kobe Bryant play with a legit point guard during the Olympics, then during All Star games. That's where he does not have to make decisions on who to get the ball to, and then when and where. Also defensively, there is no doubt that he is overrated. I don't care as to who he asks to guard at any time or any place.

Team play, on all sides of the ball, is where Kobe Bryant falls incredibly short.

short of what? you say his team play is overrated, i have never heard anyone say kobe is magic johnson or steve nash. Most non laker fans dont think he is a good teammate and think he is selfish, so how is he overrated? you say his defense is overrated, compared to who? no one is claiming that hes ron artest or pippen, if you go to the lakers thread you will see plenty of people that wish kobe would play better D, so again, how is he overrated? 

 

[sb]

How Kobe’s All-Time Record is Average
http://wagesofwins.com/2012/12/06/how-kobes-all-time-record-is-average/
What’s this got to do with Kobe? Glad you asked! Let’s do a similar experiment. Let’s pretend an average player at each position across roughly the span of Kobe’s career took the same number of shots as Kobe. For simplicity, I’ve assumed the players get to the line at the same rate as the average player at their position (Spoiler alert, this will be important) How would said players fare?
Position Points Total All-Time NBA Rank
Point Guard 27,209 9th
Shooting Guard 27,762 7th
Small Forward 28,2501 7th
Power Forward 28,080 7th
Center 29,111 6th
Huh! A very interesting trend emerges! If an average player in any of the given positions could have taken as many shots as Kobe, they’d be in the top 10 all-time NBA scoring list! Luckily, Kobe maintains his lead above all of them, just barely in the center’s

which record are you referring to that is average?

 

[longstroke]

short of what? you say his team play is overrated, i have never heard anyone say kobe is magic johnson or steve nash. Most non laker fans dont think he is a good teammate and think he is selfish, so how is he overrated? you say his defense is overrated, compared to who? no one is claiming that hes ron artest or pippen, if you go to the lakers thread you will see plenty of people that wish kobe would play better D, so again, how is he overrated? 

He does not make teammates better, as he is incapable of doing that, as per what's going on in Laker Land right now. Without Phil Jackson and Derek Fisher there, he has no one to help him connect with the other players, which also makes the article by Simmons even more profound.

Kobe Bryant, by reading Russ's book, is finally trying to understand his teammates.

If he isn't a great defender, then makes horrible decisions with the ball, and doesn't make his teammates better, Kobe Bryant is indeed overrated as a complete basketball player, but not as a scorer.

 

[sea manup]

which record are you referring to that is average?

hes talking about his 30k points

 

[sb]

hes talking about his 30k points

you mean the record that only 5 players in the history of the nba are a part of?

 

[sea manup]

He does not make teammates better, as he is incapable of doing that, as per what's going on in Laker Land right now. Without Phil Jackson and Derek Fisher there, he has no one to help him connect with the other players, which also makes the article by Simmons even more profound.

Kobe Bryant, by reading Russ's book, is finally trying to understand his teammates.

If he isn't a great defender, then makes horrible decisions with the ball, and doesn't make his teammates better, Kobe Bryant is indeed overrated as a complete basketball player, but not as a scorer.

he has gone to the finals 7 times (5 wins) as the teams primary ball handler, has been around top 3 in assists for his position for a majority of his career, and is about to enter the top 5 all time playoff assists list. his decision making cant be THAT bad, again no one is saying that he makes better decisions with the ball than chris paul or magic. so how is he overrated when it comes to decision making? 

He has been an above average defender his entire career, who did the lakers go to last year when ty lawson was ripping the defense apart? i dont think anyone thinks kobe is the greatest defender to ever put on a nba uniform, people just see him as an above average defender. so how is his defense overrated?

i mean i can understand the points you are trying to make, but if you want people to give you a serious response you should avoid saying things like "[color= rgb(255, 255, 255)]He does not make teammates better, as he is incapable of doing that"[/color]

"You always hear stories about him before you get there," Morris said. "They say he's this, he's that. But my experience, he's probably one of the best teammates that I've had, on and off the court. He's willing to help me, whether it's on the court or off-the-court situations. Really he's just always there to offer advice.

took me 30 seconds to find that quote from darius morris

 

[longstroke]

he has gone to the finals 7 times (5 wins) as the teams primary ball handler, has been around top 3 in assists for his position for a majority of his career, and is about to enter the top 5 all time playoff assists list. his decision making cant be THAT bad, again no one is saying that he makes better decisions with the ball than chris paul or magic. so how is he overrated when it comes to decision making? 

He has been an above average defender his entire career, who did the lakers go to last year when ty lawson was ripping the defense apart? i dont think anyone thinks kobe is the greatest defender to ever put on a nba uniform, people just see him as an above average defender. so how is his defense overrated?

i mean i can understand the points you are trying to make, but if you want people to give you a serious response you should avoid saying things like "[color= rgb(255, 255, 255)]He does not make teammates better, as he is incapable of doing that"[/color]

"You always hear stories about him before you get there," Morris said. "They say he's this, he's that. But my experience, he's probably one of the best teammates that I've had, on and off the court. He's willing to help me, whether it's on the court or off-the-court situations. Really he's just always there to offer advice.

took me 30 seconds to find that quote from darius morr

If I want people to give me a serious response?

Look all through this thread. No matter WHAT is brought up, any proof, stats, whatever, nobody on this whole thread that had anything to say against Kobe Bryant, will ever be given any credit by the likes of you.

Throughout his career, Kobe Bryant has never been known as a teammate that will make anyone better. Outside of Phil Jackson, who wrote a book stating how difficult it is to deal with Kobe, he, Kobe, is a coach killer and a team killer, as with Shaq and lesser teammates like Parker. It's all about KOBE winning, not the Lakers. It's about his rep, and that's pretty damned clear. Many people, Magic included, had to tell him that he needed to be closer to his teammates, if he really wanted them to hear him, without their taking it as constant criticism. There is only one way to make players better, and Russ stated how to do it in his book, the book that Kobe just read.

Also, I find it hysterical that their are those of you who laughed at Smush Parker and his sentiments toward Kobe, yet you now have the nerve to bring up Darius Morris.

 

[dmxfury]

short of what? you say his team play is overrated, i have never heard anyone say kobe is magic johnson or steve nash. Most non laker fans dont think he is a good teammate and think he is selfish, so how is he overrated? you say his defense is overrated, compared to who? no one is claiming that hes ron artest or pippen, if you go to the lakers thread you will see plenty of people that wish kobe would play better D, so again, how is he overrated? 

This was a smart post given how this thread has gone. I enjoyed reading it, wasted a good half an hour at work last week

 

[sea manup]

If I want people to give me a serious response?

Look all through this thread. No matter WHAT is brought up, any proof, stats, whatever, nobody on this whole thread that had anything to say against Kobe Bryant, will ever be given any credit by the likes of you.

Throughout his career, Kobe Bryant has never been known as a teammate that will make anyone better. Outside of Phil Jackson, who wrote a book stating how difficult it is to deal with Kobe, he, Kobe, is a coach killer and a team killer, as with Shaq and lesser teammates like Parker. It's all about KOBE winning, not the Lakers. It's about his rep, and that's pretty damned clear. Many people, Magic included, had to tell him that he needed to be closer to his teammates, if he really wanted them to hear him, without their taking it as constant criticism. There is only one way to make players better, and Russ stated how to do it in his book, the book that Kobe just read.

Also, I find it hysterical that their are those of you who laughed at Smush Parker and his sentiments toward Kobe, yet you now have the nerve to bring up Darius Morris.

i never said anything about your smush parker post, morris was just the first thing that popped up on google (recent news) for me. i was not trying to say that kobe is the greatest team mate of all time, i used it as a simple example to show you that you were wrong with your statement. 

i still dont understand what you are trying to prove, of course lakers and kobe fans will hype up kobe to the point that some can see him as overrated, but thats just lakers/kobe fans. go to any of the team threads and you will see knicks fans hyping up melo to the point that he seems over rated, clippers fans hyping up cp3 to the point that he seems over rated. its part of being a fan of a team. im sure there are bulls fans that think jordan can cure the blind and walk on water, but does that mean jordan is overrated in general?