LeBron Haters Call To Arms! (The Haters Unification Thread)

[CP1708]

For those that have used the weak East argument and somehow found resistance from people, some of the evidence, examined and posted on the internet yesterday that had everyone hot takin.

Would'ya look at that.....

Ok, looked at.......

Kobe:
1998 Seattle 61 Wins

2000 Phoenix 53, Portland 59, Indiana 56
2001 Portland 50, Sacramento 55, San Antonio 58, Philly 56
2002 San Antonio 58, Sacramento 61, New Jersey 52
2003 Minnesota 51
2004 San Antonio 57, Minnesota 58

2008 Denver 50, Utah 54, San Antonio 56
2009 Houston 53, Denver 54, Orlando 59
2010 OKC 50, Utah 53, Phoenix 54, Boston 50



LeBron:
2007 Detroit 53

2011 Boston 56, Chicago 62

2013 San Antonio 58
2014 Indiana 56
2015 Chicago 50, Atlanta 60


Few notes.

Kobe played in both the 99 and 12 shortened years, where only 1-2 teams even won 50. Bron played in the 12 season, OKC would have been a 50 win team with a full year.

Kobe had a couple of 49's, and a 48 also under his belt. Bron had a lot of 38, 40, 41's.

Kobe missed the 05 playoffs, the last 3 years, the two strike shortened years, and still amassed 24. And when everyone starts to point at Shaq, and Pau, I'm going to post pictures of Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Ray Allen (who got him the 13 title and a 50+ series win)


6 NBA Finals, and you have a total of 7 series wins vs teams over 50 Wins? That is the DEFINITION of cakewalk thru a weak East, every, damn, year. Jesus Christ, Kobe beat 10 teams in 3 seasons, TWICE!!!!
Bron has 7 over the course of an entire 13 year career? :x

 

[copped]

For those that have used the weak East argument and somehow found resistance from people, some of the evidence, examined and posted on the internet yesterday that had everyone hot takin.
Ok, looked at.......

Kobe:
1998 Seattle 61 Wins

2000 Phoenix 53, Portland 59, Indiana 56
2001 Portland 50, Sacramento 55, San Antonio 58, Philly 56
2002 San Antonio 58, Sacramento 61, New Jersey 52
2003 Minnesota 51
2004 San Antonio 57, Minnesota 58

2008 Denver 50, Utah 54, San Antonio 56
2009 Houston 53, Denver 54, Orlando 59
2010 OKC 50, Utah 53, Phoenix 54, Boston 50



LeBron:
2007 Detroit 53

2011 Boston 56, Chicago 62

2013 San Antonio 58
2014 Indiana 56
2015 Chicago 50, Atlanta 60


Few notes.

Kobe played in both the 99 and 12 shortened years, where only 1-2 teams even won 50. Bron played in the 12 season, OKC would have been a 50 win team with a full year.

Kobe had a couple of 49's, and a 48 also under his belt. Bron had a lot of 38, 40, 41's.

Kobe missed the 05 playoffs, the last 3 years, the two strike shortened years, and still amassed 24. And when everyone starts to point at Shaq, and Pau, I'm going to post pictures of Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Ray Allen (who got him the 13 title and a 50+ series win)


6 NBA Finals, and you have a total of 7 series wins vs teams over 50 Wins? That is the DEFINITION of cakewalk thru a weak East, every, damn, year. Jesus Christ, Kobe beat 10 teams in 3 seasons, TWICE!!!!
Bron has 7 over the course of an entire 13 year career? :x

this is undeniable...as much as he is a great player...but come on, anyone who thinks this dude didn't take advantage of one of the worst eastern conference in NBA history, where 2 or 3 years, the 8th seed was below .500...

not his fault, but still puts a dent into his difficulty....

put any of those lakers teams or san antonio teams in the east and they win 65+ every year...

 

[Lovetohate3000]

Lbj never been as good as proclaimed....goat status, I have to laugh at that..
Now dude has been exposed for having everything handed to him... playing in the JV conference....

....when the grass is cut the snakes will show... Lmao...

 

[al3xis]

It's impossible to ignore. But this would be of more relevance if the Hawks weren't classified as awful while winning 60 this year. Pretty arbitrary number, but it's a good one to have in Kobe or Tim's corner.

Kobe missed the 05 playoffs, the last 3 years

It's not like he would have won any if he was there though, you know?

And when everyone starts to point at Shaq, and Pau, I'm going to post pictures of Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Ray Allen (who got him the 13 title and a 50+ series win)

We also can point at the Lakers and Phil Jackson. Meanwhile the Miami Heat in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2015 have 3 playoff appearances, 0 series wins and a total of 4 playoff games won.

The dirty little secret in Miami is during the Pat Riley regime they've been out of the 1st round 5 times in the 16 non-LeBron years. While they made 4 straight Finals in 4 years with him. Pat Riley. 5 of 16 just getting out of Round 1. I was surprised at that myself and I'm the last person to believe in that winning culture nonsense they spew.

I don't need to give you a rundown on Lakers history or Phil's.

The Cavs have 37 non-LeBron years. 3 years they've been out of the 1st round in 37 years. LeBron era? 6 out of 8 years, two non showings as a teenager.


Yes, it was good to get context on how bad the East actually is. It's awful. That chart is hard to ignore. Kobe, and others have had more difficult paths.

But, context is also needed on what has been done with and what's been done without him. Along with the type of organizational structure is needed to advance deep in the playoffs. The West has been filled with better coaches, front offices and players for over a decade now. But yes, he's had an easy path. An easy path franchises in the East haven't capitalized on, except wherever he is playing.

 

[CP1708]

It's not like he would have won any if he was there though, you know?

I wasn't implying it as a he would have won more, I was using it moreso as a balancing between the two players, as Kobe has been in the league longer, but he's had seasons where he wasn't available to make hay, so to speak, on LeBron. If you get what I'm saying. Between his 19 years, and Bron's 13, the 6 of Kobe's (2 lockout short seasons, 2 first round and outs vs Suns, and 4 injured/no playoff years) Bron has his first two teenage years, and one lockout short season.

I was sort of leveling the seasons total, which shows that the 24-7 disparity isn't just cuz Kobe been in the NBA longer.


And I like the dirty little Riley secret, that's a damn good find, I hadn't noticed that.


I am trying to find a likening with Bron in the East, and the 2 I have so far are Will Smith examining the box office, and deciding that Sci-Fi movies are his meal ticket to box office success, not necessarily his success as an artist, or Oscar threat, etc. He makes money, he gets paid, he puts up big box offices, but he's not a true threat to get the Gold.

Or, like dominating at Ohio St and the Big Ten, you might scratch out a title or two, but for the most part you dominate the crappy conference, and then get dismantled by the SEC, where real teams are. (this would have worked better before this year maybe I should have used the Pac 12. )

He gets numbers, he wins series, and he creams a ton of East teams. But to this point, when he meets up with the West, he's been shown the door. I mean, from 03-11, he had ONE single series win vs a 50 win squad, and that team was coming off multiple multiple multiple deep playoff runs, and likely ran out of gas. That's context, that does not help his case.

2011 Boston would not help his case contextually either. Nor would the 2013 aging Spurs, really. So yes, there's context, but some of it doesn't help his argument either.


You know I have strong beliefs in you can't win a 4th straight Finals, etc, and to that point, I was right last year. But I didn't even realize these type of numbers til this year. I didn't see the complete cakewalk he was livin off of, and even still, the Heat ran out of gas last year anyways. Had they faced 10+ 50 win teams over the course of those 3--4 years, he would never have even come close to a Finals run in that 4th year. But in this version of the East, I guess it is doable. And it will continue it seems, as Anthony Davis, Wiggins, and now this year's #1 and #2 picks all end up out West, amongst the bottom teams of an already strong conference.

Even when he loses, he wins. Cavs could lose Love this offseason, and still walk thru the East next year, and really only have to win one single tough series to hoist the O'Brien.


As for the Hwaks, 60, they struggled to get out of round 1 vs a 38 win Nets team. And went to the wire every game with a 46 win Wizards team. And then were swept. That's the worst 60 win team we've ever seen, and you know it.

 

[Clyde Frog]

Sorry if already posted, even though I dont know why it would be.

 

[copped]

It's impossible to ignore. But this would be of more relevance if the Hawks weren't classified as awful while winning 60 this year. Pretty arbitrary number, but it's a good one to have in Kobe or Tim's corner.
It's not like he would have won any if he was there though, you know?
We also can point at the Lakers and Phil Jackson. Meanwhile the Miami Heat in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2015 have 3 playoff appearances, 0 series wins and a total of 4 playoff games won.

The dirty little secret in Miami is during the Pat Riley regime they've been out of the 1st round 5 times in the 16 non-LeBron years. While they made 4 straight Finals in 4 years with him. Pat Riley. 5 of 16 just getting out of Round 1. I was surprised at that myself and I'm the last person to believe in that winning culture nonsense they spew.

I don't need to give you a rundown on Lakers history or Phil's.

The Cavs have 37 non-LeBron years. 3 years they've been out of the 1st round in 37 years. LeBron era? 6 out of 8 years, two non showings as a teenager.


Yes, it was good to get context on how bad the East actually is. It's awful. That chart is hard to ignore. Kobe, and others have had more difficult paths.

But, context is also needed on what has been done with and what's been done without him. Along with the type of organizational structure is needed to advance deep in the playoffs. The West has been filled with better coaches, front offices and players for over a decade now. But yes, he's had an easy path. An easy path franchises in the East haven't capitalized on, except wherever he is playing.

thats all good, but the 3 finals he lost only ONCE was he considered the under dog..and the two he won he was favorite to win****

and that is not because he is superman, that is because he truly did have a stacked team...

so i don't see how that argument holds or has any relevance...regardless what the heat did before he arrived, he had a good enough team to win 3-4 titles easily...

thats like saying the bulls won 6 with mike and haven't won any without him...that makes mike the greatest ever based off of that? no.

his team was better than the mavs & his team was better than the spurs BOTH times...

 

[al3xis]

2011 Boston would not help his case contextually either. Nor would the 2013 aging Spurs, really

The Celtics came back the next year and took the Heat to 7. The Spurs came back the next year and beat them in 5. I don't know why that would be put into a negative context. The Spurs just had got done steamrolling the West. Celtics had a healthy Big 4 and Rondo on top of his game.

But to this point, when he meets up with the West, he's been shown the door

IF he won this year, that's 3-3 - winning two series as an underdog, knocking off two MVP's and the best franchise of the last 20 years. I would put that as a feather in his cap if anything. IF he were to do it, he probably won't. But that's still the thing, he's 30 on a team where he's the oldest rotation player. He's going to get multiple shots at this still. He might come up short, might break through one or two more times.

but the 3 finals he lost only twice was he considered the under dog

They were favored against Dallas, underdogs to OKC in '12, favorites in '13 vs SA, and underdogs in '14. Went 2-2. Heavy Underdog this year, heavy underdog in 2007. So what's your point with this?

 

[copped]

The Celtics came back the next year and took the Heat to 7. The Spurs came back the next year and beat them in 5. I don't know why that would be put into a negative context. The Spurs just had got done steamrolling the West. Celtics had a healthy Big 4 and Rondo on top of his game.
IF he won this year, that's 3-3 - winning two series as an underdog, knocking off two MVP's and the best franchise of the last 20 years. I would put that as a feather in his cap if anything. IF he were to do it, he probably won't. But that's still the thing, he's 30 on a team where he's the oldest rotation player. He's going to get multiple shots at this still. He might come up short, might break through one or two more times.

lol wut?

only the first loss to duncan in 2007 was he considered an underdog...

spurs were not favorite either time....look at the odds....and he was favorite against the mavs, okc...

 

[al3xis]

spurs were not favorite either time....look at the odds....and he was favorite against the mavs, okc...

I really don't care much about this, but you're wrong.

2014:

http://www.si.com/nba/point-forward/2014/06/02/nba-finals-odds-spurs-heat-favorite-2014

2012:

http://www.covers.com/articles/articles.aspx?theArt=277492

Favorite:
2011, 2013.

Underdog:
2007, 2012, 2014, 2015.

And that's from Las Vegas, not opinion. I don't even think it benefits him to win as an underdog for 'legacy' - if you're that good you should be a favorite- aside from this year with an injured team.

thats like saying the bulls won 6 with mike and haven't won any without him...that makes mike the greatest ever based off of that? no.

I'm not sure there's been a better reference on how much organizational structure matters more than this:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1994.html

 

[CP1708]

Allen we might have to talk via PM. It could flood in here.

 

[MVP]

Spurs steamrolled the West? You mean the same ones that got taken to 7 gsmes by Dallas and went 6 w/o Serge for 2 games. Those juggernaut Spurs?

 

[Deleted member 37467]

Yea, homie is dead wrong about LBJ being favored in all those Finals.

I knew for a fact OKC was favored and SA was favored last year, glad someone found the info because I didn't feel like digging it up,

 

[Truth]

Spurs/Heat were even money last finals. I know bc I bet on the Spurs series price

 

[al3xis]

Spurs steamrolled the West? You mean the same ones that got taken to 7 gsmes by Dallas and went 6 w/o Serge for 2 games. Those juggernaut Spurs?

No, I mean the Spurs in 2013 that went 12-2 vs LA, GS and Memphis. So yeah, those Spurs.

 

[Deleted member 37467]

Spurs/Heat were even money last finals. I know bc I bet on the Spurs series price

Even money when you bet, sure, SA opened up as the favorite, tho.

I bet Miami and believe I got +105, pretty sure SA opened up @ -125.

 

[copped]

i shouldn't of said odds....i meant public/professional opinion on who was going to win...

regardless favorite to win is usually on paper, and if its on paper that means who had the better roster in those finals


spurs vs. cavs -- spurs

heat vs. mavs - heat

heat vs. okc - heat

heat vs. spurs - heat

heat vs. spurs - heat

gs vs. cavs - GS

that's how i feel, i am a spurs fan to the death but i'd be lying if i thought they were going to win in 2013, but last year i felt it was even odds/toss up...

and i don't get your argument about structure of an organization....pat riley got him CHRIS BOSH and dwyane wade in their prime for 2-3 years...cavs got him kevin love, jr smith, shumpert, mozgov, with kyrie, thompson, varajao still on the squad...

are you serious right now? if you seriously think he got the bad end of the stick because of the organization, give me a break...other than a couple of early years with the cavs, he has had a championship team since 2010 with a weak eastern conference to boot...

 

[copped]

someone should post all rosters lebron has had in he finals vs. his opponents...

other than GS and spurs in 07, his roster was better in each and every case...

 

[al3xis]

Did I say that? The Heat did well until the Final year. The Cavs did well this season. Bulls, Spurs and Lakers have had mainstays. ONE coach, one or at most, two GM's. This is LeBron's 3rd coach/FO regime he's taken to the Finals. This doesn't fit in somehwere in the story? The East is terrible, yes. But it's not an accomplishment to switch teams in the summer, have a rookie coach, over haul the roster in January and still wind up here? Not to mention the team he left behind can't scrape together enough wins to make the playoffs in said conference. Kinda evens things out in my mind (this season).

But Hey, if we want to use 50 win seasons the benchmark, that's cool. I can't win.

And if you're valuing tv talk and fans opinions on a Finals series odds over Las Vegas, I can't help you.

 

[Deleted member 37467]

@ the backpedal.

 

[ThaxbyChamblis]

 

[kingkoopa]

Cavs are going to beat the Warriors sadly

 

[dmxfury]

Vegas odds are not the best way to determine the 'favorite'. The lines aren't set based off pure 'chance to win'

Regardless I don't know why there is so much debate about who was the favorite and who wasn't

 

[QU!K]

No matter how much you want to hate Bron it's hard to deny he's THE GUY of the post shaq/duncan/kobe era

Jordan
Hakeem
Jordan
Shaq/duncan/kobe
Lebron

 

[mister friendly]

Who cares if Lebron is the guy of the post Duncan/Lakers era?

Kobe was the guy of the post Jordan era

And you hate the stuffing out of Kobe, so I don't know why it's relevant