Let's talk about onside kicks for a minute...

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Anyone catch this article in ESPN the mag this week? Pretty interesting - goes on to say that basically you are better off in many instances going for onsidekicks everytime out, and you're especially better off if you mix them in just a lot more frequently but keep the element of surprise with them.
[h2]The Insider: Shunning onside kicks[/h2] [h3]Coaches are costing their teams wins by avoiding this basic play[/h3]

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By Peter Keating
ESPN The Magazine
Archive

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Getty ImagesJared Strubeck, doing what he did better than anyone else the past four years in college football.

This article appears in the August 24 issue of ESPN The Magazine in the new Insider column spot near the front of the volume.

Jared Strubeck was the best at what he did in all of college football the past four seasons, a threat to change the course of any game. So why have you never heard of him? Because his specialty, the onside kick, is the last resort for losing teams. Or so his coaches believed. Guess what? They're wrong. Yet another exhibit in the case to be made that football coaches are the ultimate in conservative thinking.

From 2005 through 2008, Strubeck and the San Jose State Spartans recovered the most onside kicks in FBS (eight) and had the best recovery rate (61.5%, minimum 10 attempts). "I got to where I was controlling the ball 100%," he says. "We knew where it was going, how high it was going and who was going to run to it."
To read more about this and understand the methodology behind successful onside kicks and what it can do for a program, you must be an ESPN Insider.
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But the one variable Strubeck couldn't control was how often his coaches rolled the dice, which ended up being just 13 times in four seasons. Around the country, the tactic has been even less popular: College teams have tried just 616 onside kicks since 2004, or about one every 12 games.

So when you flip on your flat-screen to catch your favorite school's opener, you're sure to see new recruits, sparkling helmets -- and stale strategic thinking. Sure, your team might have spent the summer working on flea-flickers and other gadgets. But, as usual, the coach is confusing standard trickery with honest-to-goodness creative thinking. This time of year should be about keeping an open mind and examining new philosophies. The onside kick, when properly used, could be worth one or two wins a year. And yet it's stigmatized to the point that it's the most underutilized play in college football.

We hear you laughing. We know onside kicks reek of desperation, not strength. That they come late in lopsided games, when overmatched teams need to get the ball back and start heaving Hail Marys. We know that teams sometimes recover one or two or even four in a game and still get blown out, as Idaho did last September in a 51-28 loss to Western Michigan. According to ESPN Statistics and Information, FBS teams are just 77-474 in games where they've attempted at least one onside kick in the past five years. The only team to recover more than one onside kick in a win last season was Florida Atlantic, which rode two successful pounces to beat Florida International 57-50 in OT. That ain't exactly Florida-Oklahoma for the national title.

We also realize the recovery of onside kicks is random. Even the top kickers, like Strubeck, say the best they can offer their team is the chance to touch the ball first; nobody can guarantee what happens next.

But conventional wisdom has a way of limiting progress. To understand why a new approach to onside kicking is in order, let's do a little math. (Seriously, just a little.)

When any drive begins, it has what statisticians call an expected value -- the average number of points a team can expect to score, based on previous outcomes for teams with the same field position. (For instance, a team with first and goal at the 1-yard line will score, on average, about six points.) Using this knowledge and a couple of other key pieces of data, it's possible to figure out the costs and benefits of onside kicks. Colleges kick off from the 30, and the average onside try travels 13.9 yards. So, assuming the kicking and receiving teams recover at the same place, the gain from grabbing an onside kick is the expected value of starting a drive at your own 44-yard line (about 2.1 points). The risk is the expected value (about minus-3.0 points) of your foe taking over at the 44. Based purely on that info, you'd have to recover about 60% of kicks for the strategy to pay off.

Seems daunting, right? Well, that's before you consider that the alternative -- booting the ball deep -- has its own costs. Drives after kickoffs begin, on average, at the returning team's 32-yard line. That's just a 24-yard difference from onside land. And for risking those 24 yards, you get the chance to keep the ball. When you look at all the variables present with both kinds of kicks and factor in the 24-yard difference, you need to recover just 33% of onside tries for the reward to outweigh the risk. FBS teams actually snag 30.7% of onside attempts, which is pretty close.

Keep in mind that all the numbers we've used are averages, and not all teams are created equal. In other words, poor coverage teams that allow foes to start drives closer than the 32 actually have more of a mathematical incentive to gamble.

Even more critical is the element of surprise. Chris Meidt, who is now a ******** assistant, became known for his aggressive play-calling as the head coach at D3 St. Olaf College from 2002 to 2007. "When we were behind late in games, only about 20% of our onside kicks were successful," Meidt says. "But in surprise situations, we recovered about 75% of the time." Meidt's numbers are close to data from the pros: From 1996 to 2006, one in six onside kicks was successful in the NFL, according to Football Outsiders. But that breaks down to a 14% rate when teams were losing in the fourth quarter and a whopping 71% at all other times. (The NCAA doesn't record such data, another reason the benefit of onside kicking is a well-kept secret.) Think about that disparity for a moment, then consider all the tactical changes that would be required against a team capable of executing an onside kick at any time. Do you replace beefy blockers with good-hands guys? Keep two returners deep or just one? There's an inherent advantage just in keeping teams guessing.

"If you recover an onside kick, it's just like getting a turnover," says Meidt, who has a math degree and an MBA and who loves to talk about game theory. He adds, "And even if you don't, your opponent has to spend time preparing for and defending against it."

What's more, if a team were to onside kick relentlessly, you'd think eventually it would lose that surprise factor, expose special-teamers to more brutal collisions and succeed less often. But the data argue otherwise. College teams that have tried at least 10 onside kicks since 2004 have recovered them 39% of the time (62-for-158), a higher rate than teams with fewer attempts (127-for-458, or 28%).

So why aren't more teams dribbling the ball off the tee while ahead or to start the third quarter or against USC? For one thing, the game's code, while unwritten, is clear: Rely on strength and speed, not gimmicks. Oregon converted an onside kick in the third quarter of an October 2006 game while leading UCLA 27-6, and the play still draws angry comments on YouTube. (Postscript: The Ducks won by just 10 points.) Plus, coaches are deeply risk-averse. Research shows most are biased toward conventional wisdom -- they'll routinely punt on fourth down or stick with the PAT conversion chart even when it works against them. Apparently, they will reflexively kick deep, too. "If you do the standard thing and it fails, nothing happens," says Hal Stern, chairman of UC Irvine's statistics department, who has researched football strategy. "If you do something radical and it fails, you get blamed."

And so, while the status quo has many champions, the onside kick awaits its own.

Just ask Jared Strubeck. The kicker with the pinpoint accuracy of a Greg Maddux fastball hasn't had a single offer from an NFL team. He is finishing classes and plans to join the California Highway Patrol.

Peter Keating is a senior writer for ESPN The Magazine who helped to develop the Ultimate Standings, an annual concept for the Magazine. You can find his archives here.


I personally wish more teams would try this - especially teams with great defenses.
 
No coach would take the first leap and do it on a consistent basis. The odd's are in your favor I guess, but say for example things suddenly went wrongfast and the team started losing games because of it. The perceived odds aren't going to matter to the public or front office at that point and the coachwould be on the hotseat because he's the one who made the final call...
 
Originally Posted by JPZx

No coach would take the first leap and do it on a consistent basis. The odd's are in your favor I guess, but say for example things suddenly went wrong fast and the team started losing games because of it. The perceived odds aren't going to matter to the public or front office at that point and the coach would be on the hotseat because he's the one who made the final call...
yeah that's kinda what the one guy in the article says - it would have to work early on for you not to get fired
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they aren't going to stick it out and wait for the law of averages to comeback around for you.
 
That'll only work in college ball, I don't see it happenin in the NFL, same w/ the option
 
Originally Posted by Dathbgboy

That'll only work in college ball, I don't see it happenin in the NFL, same w/ the option

I don't know man - defenses are much tougher in the NFL, giving up an extra 30 yards isn't THAT big of a deal if there's a chance you take apossession away from the other team one in 3 tries.

Now whether you could do that or not is the question - but like the article said, if the other team had to seriously prepare for you to possibly onside kickeverytime out and you had a precision kicker like this guy who's main job was to kick these things a certain way.. I think it would be interesting.

But I doubt we'll ever see it.
 
If you had a specific guy that you put in there when you want to get something like that done...you'd be taking away the element of surprise, wouldn'tyou? You'd have to have a kicker who can boot it down the field 60-70 yards off the tee but also be able to chop it across the ground 10 or so yards withaccuracy so your guys can recover it before the other team does.

if you take away the element of surprise, the odds of you being able to get positive fortunes out of it on a consistent basis diminish rapidly in my opinion.
 
Originally Posted by JPZx

If you had a specific guy that you put in there when you want to get something like that done...you'd be taking away the element of surprise, wouldn't you? You'd have to have a kicker who can boot it down the field 60-70 yards off the tee but also be able to chop it across the ground 10 or so yards with accuracy so your guys can recover it before the other team does.

if you take away the element of surprise, the odds of you being able to get positive fortunes out of it on a consistent basis diminish rapidly in my opinion.
Well yeah - but i'm assuming this guy can kick the ball downfield pretty well, too.. I don't think he got a job as a kicker to begin withbased on his onside kicking ability alone.

I was just assuming if you had a specialist kicker he'd be able to provide deep kicks, as well... to provide that element of surprise.
 
See, I could see some gimmicky bastard like Mike Leach or June Jones, or some non-BCS team trying to pull this off...

But Mack Brown, Urban Meyer, Bob Stoops, or Pete Carroll?
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No way...

Even if you're rockin a dominant defense, asking them to stop teams starting possessions on your 40 on a consistent basis is stupid...
 
Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

See, I could see some gimmicky bastard like Mike Leach or June Jones, or some non-BCS team trying to pull this off...

But Mack Brown, Urban Meyer, Bob Stoops, or Pete Carroll?
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No way...

Even if you're rockin a dominant defense, asking them to stop teams starting possessions on your 40 on a consistent basis is stupid...
But the numbers disagree with this sentiment.
 
Originally Posted by Craftsy21

Originally Posted by JPZx

If you had a specific guy that you put in there when you want to get something like that done...you'd be taking away the element of surprise, wouldn't you? You'd have to have a kicker who can boot it down the field 60-70 yards off the tee but also be able to chop it across the ground 10 or so yards with accuracy so your guys can recover it before the other team does.

if you take away the element of surprise, the odds of you being able to get positive fortunes out of it on a consistent basis diminish rapidly in my opinion.
Well yeah - but i'm assuming this guy can kick the ball downfield pretty well, too.. I don't think he got a job as a kicker to begin with based on his onside kicking ability alone.

I was just assuming if you had a specialist kicker he'd be able to provide deep kicks, as well... to provide that element of surprise.
Yeah....although what I was trying to say (I didn't explain it very well) is that if you carried two kickers, one who you have working ononside kicking 100% on the time so he could become better & better in order to give the team the best chance possible to recover those kicks...and then asecond kicker that would be your regular guy who would be in the game for kickoffs, field goals, and extra points.

You're right, the guy that you'd specialize to be the "onside guy" could probably do everything the other kicker could do, but to have anytype of success with this strategy I think you'd need to have the kicker working on it almost 100% of the time in order to master it therefore it'sjust a breeze when he gets in the game.
 
the numbers part is interesting.....but what they dont take into account is NFL players > CFB players..... dudes in the NFL are stronger....quicker....andgranted it goes both ways i wouldnt in the NFL....
 
Originally Posted by JPZx

If you had a specific guy that you put in there when you want to get something like that done...you'd be taking away the element of surprise, wouldn't you? You'd have to have a kicker who can boot it down the field 60-70 yards off the tee but also be able to chop it across the ground 10 or so yards with accuracy so your guys can recover it before the other team does.

if you take away the element of surprise, the odds of you being able to get positive fortunes out of it on a consistent basis diminish rapidly in my opinion.
That's actually more of a problem in college, not the NFL. A lot of college teams have different guys for kick offs and field goals/PATs. NFLteams generally have the same guy, so it would be easier. Roster spots in the NFL are a premium commodity, so they try to package their kicks into two guys:tongue:unter and a guy who does everything else.
 
and if a coach loses one game because this strategy backfires and it costs the school a BCS bowl trip and 8 million dollars , he's fired no questionsasked.
 
soooo if the other team gets one first down they are in fg range ... if they dont gain ANY yards, your offense starts inside their 20 after the punt ... illkickoff ...
 
If you started doing this teams would just adjust their defense accordingly and prepare for it....even if that means getting fooled and them kicking it deep onyou, oh well. But there's no way a professional football team will consistently GIVE UP onside kicks without adjusting and stopping it.
 
Originally Posted by Nek32

If you started doing this teams would just adjust their defense accordingly and prepare for it....even if that means getting fooled and them kicking it deep on you, oh well. But there's no way a professional football team will consistently GIVE UP onside kicks without adjusting and stopping it.
That's why you keep them guessing. do it more frequently, but not everytime. do it at unexpected times, too... this raises your percentage alot.

soooo if the other team gets one first down they are in fg range ... if they dont gain ANY yards, your offense starts inside their 20 after the punt ... ill kickoff ...


Numbers don't support that teams are scoring points at that high of a clip, even starting at that good of field position. that's the whole point ofthis article.
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