I've said it before but never really gone full on in depth on my belief that Kobe has had essentially 3 careers. Or 3 turning points in his career, however you view it. The Shaq days winning titles. The after Shaq/Colorado days playing 1 on 5, and the Gasol days. 15 years, 3 different "eras" for Kobe.
I'll break this up for DC so that he can read only part of this if he wants too. This part will be the what has happened so far. Later, I'll do a what might have been, or could have been.
* For Deuce
Kobe has some rings. You can put whatever number you want next to it, I don't wish to argue about it. He just has some.
1 MVP, 2 Finals MVP's (it could be argued he should only have 1, it has been argued...many, many times.
) As of this moment, he is 6th all time NBA scoring list. After about 30 games whenever the next season is played, he will move into 5th. If they play a full season, he could reach 30,000 points. Kareem, Karl, MJ, Wilt, and then Kobe will be the only members of that group, until Lebron gets there in about 6 years or so. If he plays 3 more years, he will get to 6,000 assists, as well as 7,000 rebounds. If he plays those 3 more years, and gets to those numbers, he will be lonely, cuz no one else in the NBA will have those numbers on their resume.........until Lebron does in about 6 years.
I have heard some say that Kobe's numbers are rather pedestrian, he only gets 25 a game, 5 boards, 4.5 assists, etc etc. for his career. That is true, those are his numbers. However, take away his first 2 seasons, where he came off the bench, and played 18-20 minutes a night, and his career averages adjust to 27.4, 5.7 boards, and 5.1 assists, over 13 years.
You could argue that his totals would be lower then, yet he'd still be well over 26K points, and 5K and 5K rebounds and assists. He was only getting 20 minutes a night as an 18 year old, he wasn't doin major work back then, his per game numbers take a dramatic hit, his totals however, do not. Almost shockingly, it works the same for his postseason resume. Take away those 2 years of 17-20 minutes in the playoffs, and his last 13 years would look like 27.2, 5.5 rebounds and 5.1 assists.
Freaking identical. 1,100 regular season games, and 200 postseason games, and his numbers are damn near exact. Pressure, road games, game 7's, games in November in Minnesota, all the same to him. Just go out and try to impose his will. And again, this is over the course of his 3 different "eras" of his career.
Overall playoff wise, same thing, currently 4th all time in points just under 5,300, a dozen assists shy of 1,000, and over 1,000 boards. As I mentioned in his bio, he needs about 75 more assists to be 4th all time in NBA playoff history. That is crazy. I don't care about how many games played and all that, one of the biggest "ball hogs" in all of the NBA, and he could end up right beneath Magic, Stockton, and Kidd in all time assists.
It just sounds absurd. Again, if he plays a couple more years, makes it to the second or 3rd round a time or two, plays like 12-15 games for 2-3 years, he'll break the scoring mark crossing 6,000 points, maybe 1,200 rebounds and assists to go with that. Never been done before.
In terms of just Laker history he holds or will hold damn near every record there is, or be in like 2nd place like assists he'll never pass Magic, or rebounds he'll never pass Kareem, but everthing else, he'll be top 2-3 in every category almost. The Lakers. This ain't the Clippers franchise, this is the LA Lakers. Where elite of the elite play. And he could be ahead of them all. Call me crazy, but that says something about the guy. It's like someone being the leader in a dozen categories for the Yankees. These ain't bums he's passin.
I'll go thru the eras if I can get it right.
18 year old Kobe was as raw as it gets. Knees and elbows, skinny as a rail, hell he made Eddie Jones look fat. But he could run, he could shoot, he could certainly jump. At the time, my favorite Laker was Nick Van Exel. Nick was not the most talented player of all time, but he had stones as big as boulders. The kid had no fear and told the world to go @#$% themselves when they said he couldn't do something. He had no fear, and I loved that about the guy. Kobe came in and their first year they faced Utah in the playoffs. End of a close game came, and in these situations, you couldn't go to the "franchise" guy Shaq, because he couldn't shoot free throws. So the Lakers had to have a plan B. Del Harris looked around for who to take the shots, and Kobe said he would do it. He got the ball and he shot it like a Sacramento King in a big game. All air. Somehow, the Lakers got the ball, swung it around, no one took it and went for their own shot, eventually it got kicked back to Kobe, he shot it again, this time he looked like a different Sac King, same result though, all air. Another O rebound, swing it around, STILL no Laker will take the shot, it goes to Kobe again, no hesitation, rises up, and Peja's it again. 3-3, airballs. Game over, Lakers are out of the playoffs. People blamed the hell out of the kid for it, I smiled. Somebody, is a player. Hell, I knew he wasn't ready at 18, Jesus Christ people, come on. No 18 year old gonna drain that @#$%. But the fact that he stepped up and said gimme the ball, well now that counts for somethin. (course, maybe it counted for the kid just liked to shoot no matter what, I dunno.
)
Couple years go by, the kid gets better and better by the game. You can see it in him. He works hard at his craft, he sponges everything from people, he's always tryin to learn stuff. At 20, he cracks the starting lineup finally during the lockout season. He starts at SF for a while, before the Eddie Jones trade. While at SF, he gets 10-11 boards a night for the first 10-11 games or so, showing he could do what his position on the floor required of him. Once Eddie is traded, he moves to where he will finish his career, as a shooter, uh, playing guard.
Turning 21, Phil Jackson joins LA. Shaq is now in his prime and Phil immediately goes to work on Shaq to get more minutes, and better defense out of him. During the all star break in 2000, Kobe goes up to Gary Payton and asks for tips on playing defense. Kobe watches every single thing Gary does, and then tries to apply it. Seemingly overnight, Kobe becomes a much better defender. In a nationally televised Sunday game, Kobe guards Allen Iverson and gives Allen more trouble than just about anybody I ever seen guard Allen. After escaping the WCF vs Portland in which Kobe played a fantastic series, and one you could argue better than anyone else in that series, the Lakers make it back to the finals. But in game 2, in the opening minutes of the game, Kobe lands on Jalen Rose's foot, and tweaks the @#$% out of it. He' done for the game. And he misses the next game. Shaq and Rice finish out game 2 at home, and get the win to go up 2-0, but in Indy in game 3, they get murdered. Kobe and the trainers work around the clock to get him to play game 4, he does. Close game throughout, it gets sent into OT, and early in OT, Shaq fouls out. 21 year old Kobe steps up, and drains 3 straight 20 footers like they were layups. No more airballs. Later Brian Shaw takes a shot, he misses, Kobe rebounds it and puts it back in. 4 straight shots, 8 points, on the road, in OT, in the Finals, with an injured ankle. Series 3-1, effectively it's over. And Kobe has arrived.
01 leads to a little boredom from some guys, Shaq now has his ring, he's content, the Lakers sort of pace themselves thru the season. Kobe gets a little banged up, misses some time, then comes back in later April, LA wins their final 8 of the season, then goes thru the playoffs like they were playing college teams, 15-1. Now they are repeat champs, not just one timers.
02 is much the same, Shaq gets lazier, Kobe keeps working like a mad man, getting better and better and making All NBA teams, getting MVP votes, leading the team when Shaq takes a month off or so. It's apparent that the plans are for Shaq to dominate during his prime, and once he starts to fade, Kobe will take over and handle the heavy lifting. We all saw that, Kobe did not. He felt like he was ready immediately, and that he worked hard enough, he deserved to run the team. Maybe he was right, maybe he was wrong, either way, the two handled it poorly and it festered and festered for 2-3 years. But before every playoffs, they would put it all aside, and go out and win the title, 2002 being no different.
During the 3 peat years, Kobe had gone for 22, 28, and 25 a game, with 6 boards and 5 assists a game. In the playoffs, he was 21 4 and 4 in 2000, 29, 7 and 6 in 01, and 26, 6 and 5 in 02. Even as a second fiddle, he was the best of the best among guards during that time. And only 23.
2003 was the end of the run, and easily Kobe's finest season. Shaq again took a ton of time off, so Phil asked Kobe to do something for them, carry the offensive load. Kobe responded by averaging 30 points, 7 boards, and 6 assists for the season, along with 2 steals, All league Defense, 13 straight games over 35+ points, including 9 straight 40 point games. He was plain stupid at that time. During that year he dropped 55 on an older Mike, 5 triple doubles, a couple other 50 point games, dunked on Yao, set an NBA record for 12 3's in a game vs Ray Allen he just went nuts. Flat out nuts. In the playoffs he was just as good, getting 30 + in 9 out of the 12 games, and averaging 32, 5 and 5. As I have said though, LA was gassed from playing 60 something playoff games the past 3 years, they ran out of gas. Horry's missed 3 took the wind out of their sails, they couldn't get it back.
04 was big however. Malone and Payton were signed to help bring relief to Shaq and Kobe who carried too much of the burden. Things were going to be epic in LA once again. And then Kobe started a new era, the stupid one. He touched a white girl.
Not just any chick though, a pass around chick, a girl that had more DNA samples than Dexter. And it cost us a TON. Kobe handled it poorly, spoke ill of Shaq, came into Phil's office with attitude, he messed up, got caught, and then got defiant about it all. He could have just said I screwed up, I'll fix it, instead he tried to prove how untouchable he was. It was the straw, camel, etc etc. All that said, we made the finals. Then Kobe really got stupid. He tried to prevent Shaq from getting the credit for title #4. They played fractured because of him, and when Malone tweaked his knee, we had no one to handle Rasheed, and we were done. Kobe should have shut the @#$% up, gotten the title, and then moved on with life afterwards, but he didn't want to settle for that.
The era was over, Shaq was moved, and Kobe was re-signed to a huge contract. The Lakers were now his.
The first year started out fine, he ran the team well, they played ok, they were in the mix for the playoffs, but injuries mounted everywhere. Kobe missed games, Butler missed games, Divac was done, Grant was a shell, just never any full time team. One guy would come back, another would get hurt. Just no rythym to the team. Even the coach got "hurt" so to speak and left.
When it was done, LA missed the playoffs for only the 5th time ever. Kobe was now right in the cross hairs. People were ready for his throat. He and Phil made peace, worked it out, Kobe was now entering his prime, he matured slightly maybe, they were ready to try again.
The next year will be talked about for a long time. Kobe went insane. Having the longest offseason of his career, good health, and no good teammates outside of Lamar, Kobe went 1 on 5 almost all year. It meant great numbers for him, but not for the team per say. He willed them into the playoffs, and they almost game planned an upset over the Suns, and were 1 rebound away from doing so, but the bounce didn't go their way.
After another stellar year from Kobe, and another first round loss, Kobe was now getting vocal about how frustrated he was. He was not pissed about being the man, or even losing, he was pissed the front office had been on vacation for 3 years. Many mistakes had been made after the Shaq deal. They did alright for Shaq, Lamar, Butler, Grant, and a #1 isn't bad for a 32 year old. But afterwards, they went stupid. They did nothing, unless you count trading Caron Butler for Kwame Brown. And Kobe was getting tired of it. They had drafted ok, taking Bynum, getting Jordan Farmar to play C and PG, but nothing else was done to help Kobe in his prime. After Kobe vented infamously to get something done, even asking for a trade, that lasted about 6 hours and was great theatre on NT that day, Mitch woke up and actually started to work. He brought back Derek Fisher, he moved Evans and Cook for Trevor Ariza so Kobe didn't have to defend the best wing anymore, and then he made a great move getting Gasol. Suddenly, LA was deep, and talented and good. Kobe got what he wanted all along, talent around him.
2008 was sort of a blur, getting Gasol was great, but it would have been even better had Bynum been there. Bynum had developed nicely until he blew out his knee, and then Trevor also got injured. Kobe made it back to the finals in a classic matchup with Boston, but having Vlad Radmonovic and Luke Walton defend Paul Pierce sort of popped the ballon. Bynum and Ariza would have helped that team out immensly. Do they win? I don't know. It don't matter, but it would have helped a lot.
2009 came, and LA was pissed about losing in 08. They played solid ball for the entire 9 months and earned their 15th overall title, Kobe's (whatever number you wish to give him) He had what he wanted. People had forgotten Colorado (most of them had, some will never let it go no matter how much penis that girl went thru that summer) But Kobe wasn't done, he wanted to repeat, to lay claim that he was every bit the leader any other franchise hall of famer was. They played sloppy for a while, Kobe started to break down a little with nagging injuries, but all year he made game winner after game winner to save their @#$. They played well enough to reach the finals again, against an old foe, Boston yet again. Kobe was BRILLIANT for 6 games, hell before game 7 people asked before the game if he would be MVP of the series win OR lose.
He played way to out of control, way too in the moment, and struggled all game long. Though he didn't shoot well at all, he played good D and rebounded all day until the 4th when he scored 10 of his 23 and got the assist to Ron Artest of all people to seal game 7, he had won title number (whatever) He was a champion again.
So this year, he came in hoping to get another 3 peat. LA started out on fire, 13-2 and then played like girls the rest of the year, but then turned it on right after the all star break as a sort of we're back type reminder. Yet again, got full of themselves, went back to sleep and finished out the season as a 2 seed, but had to struggle just to get to that. Media wondered all year what the hell they were doing, but assumed they would turn it on when the playoffs started........then they lost game 1.
Chris Paul was epic, the Hornets rattled LA's cage, there was something wrong with the entire team. They got by, then matched up with Dallas and Dirk, for the first time in their careers. LA started off fine, in game 1, went back to sleep and Dirk showed what he was all about, Kobe had a chance to win the game with the last shot, but he came up short. In game 3, they had a chance again to get back in the series, once again Dirk showed them who he was. Game 4 was played by actors in Laker unis.
The 3 peat was over, Kobe is now being asked if he is done.
I don't know what happened this year. I know a few things, several theories, probably a lil of all of it. They were gassed like in 03 from all the games the previous 3 years. Something happened within the locker room. Kobe was worn down from age/games/time. Barnes was worn down and never fully healthy. Ron and Fish lost steps. Lamar wasn't as focused as he was before. Phil wasn't fully involved as usual being his final games. And finally, Dallas just outplayed us, and were on the verge of something special. ALL of this added up to a sweep. Not any one thing more than another, ALL of it.
Over Kobe's career, he's had some amazing wins in the playoffs, and some horrible defeats. Final game of 03 was a blowout, final series in 04 was a disaster, final game of 06 was a blowout, final game of 08 was a blowout, and the final game of 11 was a blowout. Common theme I found in most of these. First half in 06, Kobe came out firing, and nobody else did. Game 6 in 08, Kobe hit like 3 3's early in the first quarter, Boston started leaning his way, nobody else showed up. Last game of 2011, Kobe came out gunning in the first half, nobody else did, and they were done. Is he shooting them out of games, I dunno. He's shot like that in many first quarters, and the team plays fine, not sure what goes on during those blowouts. I will never know, just recognize the theme.
For 2012, Kobe has to hope that the extra month and a half of offseason will heal him and his teammates, remind them of 08 when they got beat so they come in refocused and they can give one last run for a title before they are all put out to pasture.
For various reasons, Kobe is disliked by many. Laker fans piss people off, his attitude, cockiness, selfishness, arrogance, the fact he tried to play and even act like Mike, the fact he won early on turned people off, and then Colorado sealed his fate. Afterwards, he went bunker and just worked on his game. Stayed quiet, tried to just get back to ball. What happened was pretty much the most beautiful of individual performances on history, but it appalled those that held old fashion values of peach basket type basketball in their hearts. But to just look at what one guy could do, during a game, every night for 6 months, it was unbelievable. No one will ever be Mike, but that was as close as we might ever see to it. He was stupid great those years, but LA managment wasted it. They didn't do anything to help him out. I always wished that they would not have overreacted. Trade Shaq, sign Kobe, and go with Kobe, Payton, Butler, Malone, and Grant, with Lamar, Fox and Divac off the bench as well as Rush and Sasha as kids and Walton and George. Add 1 more big man to that team, they could have at least made the playoffs in 05 and given it a shot. But they let Malone walk, traded Payton and Fox, Rush got moved, Walton and George didn't
and they tore it all down. Why? Why do that? Kobe had re-signed, he couldn't dangle them, he was there, why rebuild from scratch, when you really just needed to infuse a little youth, and another big? No need to gut the whole damn roster. Payton, Kobe, Butler, Lamar, Malone as a crunch time 5. How fun could that have been? That team couldn't have has some fun in the 05 playoffs?
It was like Buss's whole plan was to just keep Kobe and do nothing else for 3 years. How the hell did that happen?
Now the non DC version, Kobe could have had several different careers another way. Stay with the Hornets and be built around, maybe he wins a title or two, maybe he bolts via free agency, I dunno. Joins LA the way he did, plays with Shaq, wins the title in 04 giving Shaq 4 Finals MVP's, but they smooth it all out, re-sign both of them, give Malone and Payton a ring each, and then they try to maintain and rebuild around Kobe as Shaq ages. Shaq made it to 2008 in good shape (sort of) By then they could have added a title or two, Kobe would get the majority of credit for those by then, he's not up to 6-7 rings with Shaq, just like Magic and Kareem. Any way you slice it, his career could have gone so many different ways. It's hard to imagine, but they won 3 titles together, and yet their legacy isn't what it should have been. They could have done so much more together. People blame Kobe alot for it, and in a way it is him, but not all him. The guy wanted nothing but to be great at what he did, and win. Shaq wanted to take a month off extra every year, and make it harder on themselves to repeat not getting HC and all that. Kobe worked like a dog, and credit was given to Shaq who sat on his @#$. I work my everyday job, and I work hard (when I'm not on NT that is) and if someone else gets credit for what I do while they have their feet up and eat twinkies all day, I'd be pissed too. I don't know how anyone could see the lazy guys side on that.
Bottom line DC, Kobe has more titles than anyone since Jordan/Pippen/Horry. Whatever credit that needs to be assigned, don't matter, bottom line is, 5 for him, 5 for Fisher, 4 for Duncan, 4 for Shaq, etc etc etc. If he plays up to 18 years all with the LA Lakers, reaches a ton of numbers, still has 5 (or maybe gets to a 6th) reaches the finals 7- (maybe
times, gonna get to 33-34,000 points or so and all his other numbers, he will go down as thee greatest LA Laker to ever lace them up. His resume in terms of sheer numbers, all star games, all NBA stuff, stats, longevity, etc etc, he could have a career second only to Kareem in terms of just filling the stat sheet for almost TWO DECADES. People try to discredit the guy, and at times everyone from Grant Hill, to Penny, to Vince, to TMac, to AI, to Lebron to Melo, Wade, Durant whoever were or are all better than Kobe, and after 15 years, he's still getting 25, 5 and 5 a game, and most of them were done after a nice 5-6 years of playing. It's incredible. If he played these 15 years for the Pacers, people would adore this guy, his fans wouldn't be so bad, but because he is a Laker, and Laker fans are insane typically, his hate factor rises to unknown levels. Mark my words. I didn't like Bird, I didn't like Mike. But when they were gone, I missed them terribly. I didn't realize at the time. I got a second chance when Mike stopped whiffing at curveballs, I made sure to enjoy those 3 years. I don't like Lebron much, but I make sure to enjoy his career, I learned my lesson. You that hate Kobe, you will miss him when he is gone. I promise you you will. He might be a douche bag, but on the court, he was memorable as any.
Right now I think I have him #6, or 7 all time. 3 more years, 1 elite levelish, 1 all star *!! (Ray Allen-Reggie Miller type year) and 1 solid year, his resume will be so stacked, I'll have him 4th all time. If he wins another title, and does it soundly, plus more playoff work, #2-3 all time is not out of the question.
It would be a shame if this got Yuku'd, wouldn't it?
If anybody actually read every word of this, @#$% is wrong with you?
Welcome. We could potentially be without basketball for a while which is sad since this has been one of, if not THEE best seasons in NBA history.
That said, we have some guys that are finishing up their career resumes/legacies as well as people entering new chapters into their bio's. So I thought we would go thru the players that matter and look at what was accomplished this year. You can project ahead, review what you have seen, slot guys in top __ what ever number you choose, top 10, top 20, top 50 all time, whatever you want to do.
Now, this stuff can be touchy, so we want grown ups only at the table. The best quotes will be selected and copy/pasted under spoilers for the players that are being referenced in the OP, this will give a comprehensive look from our NT experts as well as some stats that can be dug up, career lists, etc etc.
If you have suggestions you would like me to add, post them up, I'll talk to some people and we'll see what we can do. I'm not alone in this, I have forewarned several NT regs of this thread, I will be looking towards them for input on ideas.
*Now remember, we are not going to be updating Chris Duhon's career and @#$% in here, this is big boy NBA basketball, top shelf only.
Players we'll be working with.
Shaquille O'Neal
Steve Nash
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Ray Allen
Paul Pierce
Kobe Bryant
Dirk
Jason Kidd
Lebron James
D Wade
Kids like D12, Chris Paul, D-Rose, and Durant will not be addressed in here. They can be mentioned, or brought up, but no need to go thru their career, they are all just getting started, tho clearly they all had outstanding postseasons individually as well as their teams for a couple of them. We'll all be long gone by the time their resumes need to be looked at.
Questions that can be asked/answered, looked ahead to, projected, etc etc.
Big 3 in Boston, is 1 title a success, or failure for their collective careers?
Where will Nash end up to finish his career, in a chase for a title?
Shaq's legacy
Is Duncan done adding to his impressive resume?
Does Kobe have one last run in him?
Dirk and Kidd......TBA
Bron and Wade.......TBA
I found a top 11 all time player list from Brousard during the playoffs on Twitter, I'll post it here as a reference, along with Simmons Pyramid numbers. (If you know of any other media member lists, let me know, I'll put them with these)
MJ
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Russell
Oscar
Hakeem
Duncan
The Bill Simmons Pyramid (all time list with a fancy name )
MJ
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Kobe
Duncan
West
Oscar
Hakeem
Shaq
Moses
Havlicek
Elgin
Julius
Pettit
Malone
Barkley
Lebron
Cousy
Garnett
Isiah
Pippen
Stockton
Rick Barry
Bill Walton.
Admiral
Iverson
Willis Reed
Cowens
Frazier
Sam Jones
Iceman Gervin
McHale
Mikan
Dirk
Nash
Ewing
Payton
Unseld
Kidd
Drexler
Thurmond
DeBusschere
Hal Greer
Cunningham
Worthy
Elvin Hayes
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
Dennis Johnson
Wade
Pierce
Nique
Arizin
Heinsohn
Bernard King
Robert Parish
Nate Archibald
McAdoo
Reggie
Ray
Jerry Lucas
Alex English
Dantley
Pearl Monroe
Pistol Pete
Rodman
David Thompson
Lenny Wilk
Webber
Moncrief
Dumars
TMac
This is his top 75 all time. He mentioned and made room within his top 96 or so for D12, CP3, and Durant, couple more years, I am more than sure we will be placing them in here somewhere. Only other active dude worth noting was Vince, he had him at 83 I believe.
During the season sometime, I believe right around Ray set the all time NBA 3 point record, there were some threads opened about Ray and I was absolutely amazed at how good those threads were. They only made 3-4 pages, but the conversations were eye opening. The main one that caught my eye was the argument that Ray Allen does NOT belong in the HOF.
At first I was stunned at that absurdity. How could someone even be serious about that? Then I continued reading their point. And I'll be damned.......
Gut feeling, yes, he should be in the Hall of Fame. But when looking closer, look at this. For his career, which began in 1996 in one of the best draft classes of all time, Ray has made TWO all NBA teams, one a third team selection, one a second team selection. That second team all NBA? It's fake, so to speak.
Now, hear me out, I like Ray, I like Ray alot, but that second team all NBA is misleading. It was in 2004-05, the year after the Shaq trade and Kobe missed a good 20 something games that year. Kobe still scored 27 a game that year, but missing 20 games hurts you. Kobe, was given third team all NBA. Now my point isn't that Kobe was robbed or any of that garbage, not at all. You miss games, you don't get stuff like that, my point is, at that time, did anyone in the world think that Ray was better than Kobe? Or did Ray belong amongst the elite of the elite at guards, when not a single other season of his career did he qualify as a top 5 guard? This was the basis of that argument a few months back. For as good as Ray Allen is, for as great a shooter, he was NEVER a top flight guard in the league. He never was a legit MVP candidate ever in his career, having one single season as all NBA Third team, and then getting a second team only during the year another elite guard is hurt part of the year does not earn Ray the right to say he was one of the best guards of his era. So now, at the end of his career, he should be a hall of famer?
It was a damn great debate that went on, and as I said, I was stunned that I had never thought of it in that manner. Now, he has been to 10 all star games, so he's not a bum, but how many of those all star selections are truly justified? Alot of those could be name recognition. But over the course of this decade, I can't think of a time where his name is brought up with Shaq, Duncan, Iverson, TMac, Vince, Webber, KG, Kobe, Bron, Durant, true franchise guys that by their presense alone, made you think you had to deal with their teams at some point come playoff time. Ray never gave that vibe.
I certainly think he was underrated a little. His game was/is solid as hell offensively, and he's grown into a better defender than given credit for, but for his entire career, he averages just over 4 rebounds, and 3.5 assists a game.
I was very surprised his totals were that low. He barely hit 5 rebounds a season 1 or 2 times, and he never once hit 5 assists a game, topping out at 4.8. Now you can see why he never really earned top guard honors in the NBA. One other thing you can look at, the Milwaukee Bucks traded him right at the peak of his prime. Age 27, they moved him for an older Gary Payton. I can't really imagine many other 27 year old guards getting moved like that, in a move that didn't net the Bucks anything of true value. That has to say something.
Ray certainly benefited going to Boston late in his career though. It took all of the pressure off of him as being the face of a franchise, he was able to simply blend in and play his role. If became apparent, he is the true definition of a #3 type guy. He blended in perfectly, and hell with Rondo, he might be the #4 guy.
Bottom line though, he's had a very solid career. He's gonne end up in the 24,000 point range, all time leader in 3 pointers, he has a ring, several time all star, great college player, I think he will get into the Hall of Fame. I think his overall game was a little better than Reggie's, but Reggie was a top end guard for almost a decade. Ray was not. So which is/was the better player? I think they will be forever compared and examined. Personnally, I like Ray and his game better than I did Reggie's, but as Kool said perfectly, for a season, I want Ray, but for a series or a game, I want Reggie. To me, that says alot. Off the top of my head, I would think Ray would fit in the top 50 somewhere, but when looking thru his resume, and really breaking it down, now I'm not so sure. 50-55 isn't a bad place to be, but I almost wonder if that is a stretch now. And this from a guy that liked Ray thru his whole career, but never really examined his work, until that thread a few months back, and I was shook to my core. I had no idea.
Interesting note I just remembered, I totally forgot he was drafted by Minny. It could have been KG and Ray for a decade in Minnesota instead of Marbury. It's almost like Ray was destined to play ball with KG at some point. I wish it could have happened while they were both in their prime's, we could have seen a completely different career arc for BOTH of them if that happened.
@Al3xis That was a CRAZY good post....but how come Duncan wasn't mentioned in that Winning Finals comparison chart? He has 3 Finals MVPs and 5 titles. None the less, that was a great break down. Repped!
So, we lost another one today. Tim Duncan, aka the Big Overrated. (Or Big Fundamental if you follow the media)
I've made no secret that I'm not a big believer in Duncan's made up legacy. He's a great player, a great big man, I do not argue that. Repeat, I do not argue that. I fully agree he's one of the best to play in the NBA, but I stop there.
Many others, seem to try and carry him further. They play Timmy by different rules than the others.
For instance, Kobe discussions spin round and round on "Ringzzzzz" And people DEMAND that you can not, and should not ever count team accomplishments with individual glory. You can't use Ringz to further a players career. This is the rule set forth.
But then.......
Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account
@WojVerticalNBA
Tim Duncan retires. No statement. No letter. Just a brief Spurs release: 1,072-438 (.710) record. Five championships. Goodbye No. 21.
Regular season win totals? They counted how many wins the Spurs TEAM had over his 19 years, and listed that IN HIS RETIREMENT ANNOUNCEMENT?
Really? It takes me back to when he played 13 minutes in that game against OKC, and scored 2 points, and had 1 rebound, and I thought man, what would the Spurs do without that guy?
So one guy can't use team achievements, but Tim Duncan can. Got it
The GOAT PF ever. That played Center primarily for 13-14 of his 19 years. We will ignore the fact that Kevin Garnett played PF roughly 70% of the time, while Duncan played Center roughly the same 70% of the time. We'll just keep callin Duncan the Goat. Ok, that's helpful.
Bron, Durant, Steph, Kobe, they all need more help. Duncan can play alongside HOFers his ENTIRE career, with the same HOF coach, his ENTIRE career, and we're going to look right on past that. Sure, I notice the trend.
"He can play forever"
Every game, some **** head announcer says that. While he hasn't played 34 minutes a game since 2008. He played as a part time player for damn near a decade, but every time he put up an 11 and 6, "he's been doin it since Wake Forest, he'll do it forever......." No, he couldn't.
He finishes with 19, 11, and 3 per game for his career. On 50% shooting. From a 7 footer. Garnett takes a helluva lot more midrange shots than Duncan, and he's at .497% Iono guys.
Kobe sucks cuz he went 6-24 in a game 7 of the Finals.
Duncan went 10-27 in a game 7 of the Finals. That was much better than his 5-17 in the same Finals tho.
It just seems that all these other elite NBA guys get ripped and shredded, but Duncan praise is nonstop. Again, he's great. I fully acknowledge he was a great NBA player. But somehow, the media and other NBA fanbases just keep nodding and agreeing with all these things that get said, and don't actually dig into his career, like they do so many others.
"Duncan and Parker and Manu are the winningest trio in NBA history" Well, how many trio's actually play 12-13 years together, under the same coach no less? OF COURSE they are the winningest trio.
I credit him, and the Spurs for getting players to agree to play for less money. Duncan, Parker, Manu, West, Diaw, Green, and however many other ring chasing vets they added over the years took less than market to play on the same team. Credit the org for that. It kept them relevant when they were expiring year after year. Richard Jefferson turning down his player option and not getting anywhere close to the same money afterwards. Doin that helped the Spurs get deeper with Diaw, Green and Splitter, and earn that 5th title. While Duncan played 29 minutes a night and the league praised them for playing "perfect" basketball, or, as the Miami Heat died from their 4th straight Finals run and literally, cramped up and wilted. But hey. They won the title, and Duncan got a freebie. Like his first one, during the lockout year, when he beat an 8 seed for the title, who was missing all their inside guys.
Footnotes matter for some players, apparently they do not count for Duncan. That may be his most impressive achievement in the NBA.
His personality has probably both worked for and against him. Never pushed as the face of the NBA and could be easily glossed over at times. And on the other hand, the scrutiny in certain moments never came with it. Maybe the player of his generation, but the post-MJ era kinda sucked. Big Fundamental but lined drived FT's and finished across his body for 10K points without ever using a left hand. Greatest PF ever even if he played C. He has a weird career to me, even passing up a #1 draft selection maybe 2 years in a row at Wake Forest. Mr. Loyalty but was *this* close to leaving for ORL and the Spurs never gave him a reason to look again. I've never been able to really grasp his career for such a simple player. You knew exactly what he was and what to expect and I still can't really solidly give an answer on his standing.
You can't have one without the other in regards to SAS and TD but I wish we could get a 10 year run or so out of Buford/Pop to maybe gauge things further. Maybe they flop, maybe they keep chugging along. Never going to know, I'd assume.
All-Timer but I think I also stop short of putting him in the Top 5-6 mix. 8-10 feels more appropriate.
I'll say this much for him - he fared a lot better head to head vs prime Shaq than I had thought. 22 year old Duncan slapped 29/11 against 26 y/o Shaq in a 4 game sweep. Did not remember that until today.
- #17 all time in total points
- #7 all time in total rebounds (#4 all-time in defensive rebounds)
- #6 all time in total blocks
- top 100 all-time in assists
- #6 total postseason points
- #3 total postseason rebounds
- #28 total postseason assists
- #36 total postseason steals
- #1 total postseason blocks
- #2 most playoff wins in NBA history
- #1 in career postseason double-doubles
I remember watching that Fisher shot live too. Funny how as I got older the more I gravitated towards the spurs. First clip I was praying for Fisher to make that, where as I wanted SA to win so bad that year.
So, we lost another one today. Tim Duncan, aka the Big Overrated. (Or Big Fundamental if you follow the media)
I've made no secret that I'm not a big believer in Duncan's made up legacy. He's a great player, a great big man, I do not argue that. Repeat, I do not argue that. I fully agree he's one of the best to play in the NBA, but I stop there.
Many others, seem to try and carry him further. They play Timmy by different rules than the others.
For instance, Kobe discussions spin round and round on "Ringzzzzz" And people DEMAND that you can not, and should not ever count team accomplishments with individual glory. You can't use Ringz to further a players career. This is the rule set forth.
But then.......
Regular season win totals? They counted how many wins the Spurs TEAM had over his 19 years, and listed that IN HIS RETIREMENT ANNOUNCEMENT?
Really? It takes me back to when he played 13 minutes in that game against OKC, and scored 2 points, and had 1 rebound, and I thought man, what would the Spurs do without that guy?
So one guy can't use team achievements, but Tim Duncan can. Got it
The GOAT PF ever. That played Center primarily for 13-14 of his 19 years. We will ignore the fact that Kevin Garnett played PF roughly 70% of the time, while Duncan played Center roughly the same 70% of the time. We'll just keep callin Duncan the Goat. Ok, that's helpful.
Bron, Durant, Steph, Kobe, they all need more help. Duncan can play alongside HOFers his ENTIRE career, with the same HOF coach, his ENTIRE career, and we're going to look right on past that. Sure, I notice the trend.
"He can play forever"
Every game, some **** head announcer says that. While he hasn't played 34 minutes a game since 2008. He played as a part time player for damn near a decade, but every time he put up an 11 and 6, "he's been doin it since Wake Forest, he'll do it forever......." No, he couldn't.
He finishes with 19, 11, and 3 per game for his career. On 50% shooting. From a 7 footer. Garnett takes a helluva lot more midrange shots than Duncan, and he's at .497% Iono guys.
Kobe sucks cuz he went 6-24 in a game 7 of the Finals.
Duncan went 10-27 in a game 7 of the Finals. That was much better than his 5-17 in the same Finals tho.
It just seems that all these other elite NBA guys get ripped and shredded, but Duncan praise is nonstop. Again, he's great. I fully acknowledge he was a great NBA player. But somehow, the media and other NBA fanbases just keep nodding and agreeing with all these things that get said, and don't actually dig into his career, like they do so many others.
"Duncan and Parker and Manu are the winningest trio in NBA history" Well, how many trio's actually play 12-13 years together, under the same coach no less? OF COURSE they are the winningest trio.
I credit him, and the Spurs for getting players to agree to play for less money. Duncan, Parker, Manu, West, Diaw, Green, and however many other ring chasing vets they added over the years took less than market to play on the same team. Credit the org for that. It kept them relevant when they were expiring year after year. Richard Jefferson turning down his player option and not getting anywhere close to the same money afterwards. Doin that helped the Spurs get deeper with Diaw, Green and Splitter, and earn that 5th title. While Duncan played 29 minutes a night and the league praised them for playing "perfect" basketball, or, as the Miami Heat died from their 4th straight Finals run and literally, cramped up and wilted. But hey. They won the title, and Duncan got a freebie. Like his first one, during the lockout year, when he beat an 8 seed for the title, who was missing all their inside guys.
Footnotes matter for some players, apparently they do not count for Duncan. That may be his most impressive achievement in the NBA.
There was no hate, or salt in that. Just reflections on stuff we've all heard.
****, look above. Got folks what iffing Dunc never choked in 2013 or .4? He'd "have" 7.
Like Horry's hip check didn't knock out the Suns.
Or the lockout, 8 seed Knicks, MJ retiring didn't happen.
Or Horry missing the 3 in 03.
The what ifs almost knock him down to nothin, but we don't do that for Timmy, only positive talk huh? Everyone else gets diminished, but not TD, nooooooo sir.
There was no hate, or salt in that. Just reflections on stuff we've all heard.
****, look above. Got folks what iffing Dunc never choked in 2013 or .4? He'd "have" 7.
Like Horry's hip check didn't knock out the Suns.
Or the lockout, 8 seed Knicks, MJ retiring didn't happen.
Or Horry missing the 3 in 03.
The what ifs almost knock him down to nothin, but we don't do that for Timmy, only positive talk huh? Everyone else gets diminished, but not TD, nooooooo sir.
I'm not talkin about today, I'm talkin about over years. For years they've said things like this. I'm just pointing it out. If you're gonna pretend you've never heard any of those examples I gave, that's on you.
