Nowitness41Dirk wrote:
Look at their playoff career stats and tell me who is better when the heat turns up... It's not close.
KG also takes a huge hit from me for always being afraid of the big shot in crunch time. Dude's whole career is like LeBron's 4th quarter resume for this Finals.
Thats one part of a season, lets look at all aspects, shooting, skillset, defense, leadership, every aspect which makes a player individual great. The only aspect in which dirk edges out kg is team success and not being afraid to take/make clutch shots. If thats all this is the basis of being a great player then dirk would be the undisputed 2nd best pf. He has more success playoff wise then malone, esp if they win the finals, more then barkley.
that logic could be used to say chauncey billups>kidd and nash hell even stockton gp. Did he not lead a team to a championship and multi ecf's? Has he not been more clutch/made big shots then either of those players? And he has had more team success then either of those players? Didnt he win finals MVP?
But if you equate all aspects of their individual games you can clearly see that any of those players are better then chauncey.
I have never understood why people can't seem to figure out that things get looked at and divided up between players individual and team success.
We aren't breaking down a bunch of Boris Diaw's, we're talkin elite players, team leaders, best of the best, and the expectations of these franchise players is to lead their teams to victory. So when you talk about these players career's, the team success MUST be brought into the discussion. But it's merely one aspect. Nobody in here is saying JUST because Billups and his team always go to the conference finals, he's better than Kidd, or Stockton, or whoever. But it's one part of Billups's resume, is it not? It is fair to say that Billups won a title, and has a finals MVP, and Stockton and Kidd do not, correct? Yes it is. Just as it's fair to say that Stockton is the all time leading assist maker, and Billups is not. Stockton had a hall of fame power foward next to him for probably 60% of those assists, while Billups did not. Should we then disqualify John's assist totals since it was a "team" effort to score those buckets?
Originally Posted by
Mamba MVP
By the way great thread idea CP...guess I wasn't important enough to get a PM though
Come on fam, that isn't what I was saying. The PM's were to people who were scaring me in other threads talkin about "Legacies" and what not, I was tryin to slow them down from that talk before people started opening individual threads everywhere. Like the JKidd Appreciation post that opened last week. @#$% was gettin in my way. I was just tryin to gather everything into one thread is all, I knew you'd be in here.
Originally Posted by LDJ
Ive mentioned this when ppl talked about lbj pippen and the fact they always say kobe would/has never done that. Then all of a sudden the thread is like a rat pissin on cotton. Im not taking anything away from kb8 but that season their were times where kobe just said f it, and practically gave up on the lakers, and or just said the hell with them and just making it all about him and not about the team. I find it funny that after 7/8 years of night in night out lbj had to deal with it, and on top of that deal with it living in clevland of all places, and on a team that realistically was never gonna win never will win. Yet kobe only had to endure it 2 seasons and already had 3 rings, and under the table kinda forced the breakup of the dynasty, and basically said hell with the team after the start of a lackluster season.
I feel understand where ppl saying lbj shouldnt have given up, thrown in the towel stayed positive, and kobe never would be that way, but infact he did and the funny part was that he HAD a great team championship team, that because of his attitude was broken up, and he was on a great team that is known for building champions, but the fact he wasnt in that position for not even a whole season he was dissing players, saying folks should be traded, hell saying he wanted to be traded. i Just find it comical that one player gets crucified for never having a good team, and enduring it for damn near 8 years, and another get praised for getting mad/wanting to throw in the towel after a 3peat, because he didnt have a championship team which was in part his fault. I guess haters are gonna hate no matter how hypocritical, ironic it maybe.
I'll go ahead and assume you didn't pay a whole lot of attention to that whole situation. Kobe wasn't pissed being on a team that was losing for a few years. He was pissed that when he signed his long term contract, the front office told him they would indeed rebuild the team around him, and they would get back to winning and contending. Then for 3 years they sat around and did nothing except trade Caron Butler for Kwame Brown. THAT is what Kobe was pissed about.
Lebron hadn't signed a long term extension, he was dangling the Cavs over a fire the entire time he was there, they couldn't get anybody else to go there with him, because nobody knew if he would stay or not. It is not even remotely the same situation as Kobe, who had his contract locked in. The Cavs front office was trying to get guys to come over, but they wouldn't since Bron was up in the air, Lakers front office was doing nothing for 3 years while their star was locked in. Once Kobe demanded action, the front office finally made a deal.
Originally Posted by koolbarbone
I love Ray, especially since he helped the Cs win a championship. However, his struggles in last year's Finals, save for Game 2, are the biggest reason why the Lakers won.
Give me Ray for the entire season, but for one series, one game, one play, I'll take Reggie every single time.
This is exactly why I wanted something like this thread. There are many ways to skin a cat, just as many ways to look at and define NBA careers.
I just stated that to me, Ray is the better overall player compared to Reggie, but when I saw this post right here and he mentions one game, one shot, etc, I was nodding the whole time reading it. I completely agree. And this is where you have to decide, which is more important to you when comparing and trying to list out who goes where in terms of all time rankings.
I love Ray and his game, but I don't know if he had the cold blooded killer instinct that Reggie had. And when trying to win something, you have to have that. I think if Reggie had joined two other franchise guys, he certainly would have found a way to get that title, instead he led his own team his whole career. The debate between the 2, just got tougher when looking at it this way.
