Official 2013 NBA Offseason Thread

[CP1708]

I feel as though that its so unlikely to get a good team through the draft. Unless you get a marquee free agent, a dynamo trade, you're stuck in the cellar.

Nope apparently all rebuilding teams should be able to OKC/Boston it.

Points at Memphis, Utah, Orlando, Golden State recent rebuilds. (Orld still constructing but in great shape).

Memphis, good point.

Utah? Orlando? Now you're just trying reaching.

GS? They are that sucky team that tried really hard to make it to the playoffs as a 6-8 seed.

I thought you were looking for contenders like OKC, Boston in 08, etc.

Can't have your cake and eat it.

I hate that I'm spending my last 30 minutes in Berlin on NT talking about this

Indy is built thru the draft aren't they? West is the only big add I can think of.
The Wizards are sloooooowly getting there.

It can be done.
Have a safe flight back man.

JA, my point with Oden isn't big money, its teams giving up on top draft picks (Thomas Robinson) in less than a year, or other 21 year olds (Jermaine O'Neal as an example) but line up for a guy that hasn't played in three years.

How does any of that make sense? That's my point on GO.

 

[shoeking2101]

Not to mention about GSW that they JUST got into the playoffs, and the all star that they had this year wasn't even drafted by them. You don't win through the draft IMO.

In large part because the best players in these drafts are so young. So, unless they are a Lebron James or a Dwight Howard, these players don't really settle into who they really are in the league until they've been in the league for 3, 4 years.

Not saying that it can't be done, but building via the draft takes an incredible amount of luck, with players becoming far more than what you expected them to turn out to be.

 

[law3001]

Bottom line is, rebuilding isn't a black and white science of successfully rebuilding.

It involves luck, good drafting, smart cap use (especially for the small market teams), good coach/front office/organization.

Thats one thing people forget about sports. Take Orlando back in 2000 when they signed Grant Hill, dude had some monster seasons with the pistons and didn't even play a full season after they signed him you can't plan for that. The bulls draft Jay Williams dudes destorys his legs in a motorcycle accident.

Draft is alot of luck too. Durant was a lock to be a beast in the league, but so was Beasley

 

[Deleted member 38182]

Ya Indy is a good example as well.

Flaws in there roster aside, they've done a good job building that team from the ground up.

Thanks man, won't get into Sac till 9 pm tomorrow :x my flight is like right now. 21 hours in total to get home

 

[statis22]

In today's NBA you can make a case that it is better to be lucky than be good. Good drafting is always a good premise but unless you're drafting in the top 5 year after year, building through the draft can be a total crapshoot. And even then having a top 5 pick isn't as sure as it may seem.

Using OKC as the model IMO isn't realistic because how often does team hit in the lottery back to back to back like that?
Durant was a no brainer at 2 even though Presti is on record saying if he had the 1st pick he would have taken Oden.
Westbrook was a total gamble that paid off bigger than anybody could have expected.
You can make a case that their best pick throughout that process was Harden because that was the pick that paid the most dividends and made them a playoff team. And we all know how that turned out.
Ibaka was a great value pick for where he was picked.

I'm not knocking scouting at all and it should be valued a ton but when t comes to drafting, it's definitely not as easy as just scout better. It's tough.

 

[ballinsam23]

It involves luck, good drafting, smart cap use (especially for the small market teams), good coach/front office/organization.

Same could be said by drafting or going the FA route.

My ideal way to rebuild is.....

Year one = tank heavy = top 3 pick
Year two = keep tanking = top 10 pick
Year three = borderline playoff team = top 14 pick

Then surround your young talent with FA signings. I dont like the trade/strictly FA route. My knicks failed at it already numerous times.

 

[CP1708]

Points at Memphis, Utah, Orlando, Golden State recent rebuilds. (Orld still constructing but in great shape).

GSW just got to the playoffs this year. No one even predicted them to have the year that they did. For all we know it could be a fluke. And even so, my point is that no one predicted steph to be a potential franchise player coming into the draft. That's luck. They took a chance and won.

Memphis didn't start moving until they got ZBO and Tony Allen, neither of whom they drafted. Hell, two of their prized draft picks this decade aren't even on the team anymore.

Orlando didn't win at all last year, and they'll probably lose a lot of games again this year. And for what? To get another high draft pick that puts them in the same position. It's a reoccurring cycle unless something drastic changes it.

Utah traded for Boozer to pair him with Dwill to make those playoff runs. As it stands for them now, they are a fringe playoff team at best. Nothing about them says they'll even be in the playoffs again next year, let alone make a dint in the playoffs.

Unless you get lucky in the draft, the good teams in the league have made "that" jump via over avenues aside from the draft.

Man, what?

Not all 12 players come via draft. Your CORE comes thru draft. Conley, Rudy, OJ were a start, Marc was added (thru trade when he was what, 20?)

GS got "lucky". Ok. Paying 4 mil for 20 year old Curry, Klay, Barnes is somehow worse than giving 48 guaranteed to Tyreke? 56 to Iggy?

You build thru 3-4 drafts, that's your core, then trade/sign a piece to push over top.

Curry, Klay, sign Lee, draft Barnes.

Eric Gordon, Blake, DeAndre, Bledsoe, trade for CP3.

Buy Deng during draft, Rose, Noah, sign Boozer.

Minny with Love, Rubio, then not screwing up with Flynn, maybe Williams fits better. They screwed picks up, could have had better core........didn't Memphis have Love and traded him......? ****.

 

[japanair21]

With GO, I feel like the potential is still so high with him. I feel like teams are still willing to see if his knees can manage.

It's not like he's Michael Olowokandi.

I've always been a giant fan of Oden's though, and I want nothing more than for him to succeed.

Yes it's strange how guys like T-Rob don't really get a fair shake in the NBA, but it's not like teams are compromising their futures by acquiring Greg Oden, like the Sixers tried to do with Bynum.

The potential for Greg to be great has always been there. His knees haven't been. It's a low-risk, high-reward gamble.

 

[jumpmantwenty3]

Can someone explain the hype behind Wiggins? I never understood how scouts determine a guy is a top pick based purely off high school vids of the guy dunking over 5'8 dudes

 

[Deleted member 38182]

Throb is the black Tyler Hansborough

 

[cornzilla]

Everyone seems to always forget the Spurs. The perfect team that built through the draft. Their philosophy is simple, draft foreign players because according to Pop, they are actually taught the fundamentals and they aren't coddled at an early age.

 

[durantula]

Can someone explain the hype behind Wiggins? I never understood how scouts determine a guy is a top pick based purely off high school vids of the guy dunking over 5'8 dudes

6'7 6'8 crazy athleticism, nice handle for a highschooler, solid jumper that could use some work, the euro step of a prime dwade, the spin move of monta, great defender, kid would easily be rookie of the year this year, smh. BTW he went to a prep school so he faced some of the top hs talent. Plus hes gone up against all the best in his class and gave all of them the work.

 

[ballinboykz]

Boy, hindsight 20/20, but the Thunder really screwed up on that Beard/Martin trade.

Just to think, the Thunder had KD, Westbrook, Ibaka, Jeff Green, and Harden. Deadly, what could have been...

Anyway, difficulty was that he wasnt totally doing it in OKC anyway. 10 months ago they were so much better off...

 

[law3001]

Boy, hindsight 20/20, but the Thunder really screwed up on that Beard/Martin trade.

Just to think, the Thunder had KD, Westbrook, Ibaka, Jeff Green, and Harden. Deadly, what could have been...

Anyway, difficulty was that he wasnt totally doing it in OKC anyway. 10 months ago they were so much better off...

They was no way to keep all of them they don't thats too much money to throw around. Harden would have left eventually anyway you saw how he balled out in Houston dude was a allstar in waiting.

 

[kal-el-8]

Is anyone taking that "official barber of the Houston Rockets" seriously? 

 

[dt43]

OKC could have kept Harden in exchange for Ibaka.

They ****** up, no way around it.

Can someone explain the hype behind Wiggins? I never understood how scouts determine a guy is a top pick based purely off high school vids of the guy dunking over 5'8 dudes

The scouts aren't just watching HoopMixtape vids. They evaluate him in person and judge how he plays against other elite talent.

 

[CP1708]

The draft isn't regarded well enough in the NBA yet, imo. Either the scouting isn't enough, or teams just don't pay attention or what, I don't know, but so much talent flops while other talents emerge. Some of it may just be pure stupidity, but you have to play it out and not be careless. Some examples.

Minnesota in 07 drafts OJ Mayo and trades for Kevin Love. Smart.
08 Draft Pekovic. Draft and trade Chalmers, another PG
Take Rubio AND Flynn in 09???? Then to be funny, take Lawson and trade him too. (the ****?) But they keep Wayne Ellington.
Steph Curry was sitting there. Love, Pekovic, Steph, Rubio, in TWO YEARS, this could have been a foursome.
2010, Minny takes Wes Johnson......over Gordon Hayward or Paul George.
2011, D Williams over Kawhi, or Klay Thompson. Cavs get Kyrie at 1, could have had one of those guys at 4, or Vucevic.

OKC in 07 gets Durant and Jeff Green, trades Carl Landry (ouch)
Next year they grab Russ and Ibaka (!!!!)
in 09 they get Harden.
10 they take Bledsoe, traded to the Clippers.

Clippers get Gordon and DeAndre.
09 they get Blake.
10 they get Aminou and Bledsoe.
11 pick becomes Kyrie Irving since they traded an unprotected pick. (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Nuggets by the way get Lawson in a trade at 18 and Faried at 22 in back to back years. Good thing these crappy teams drafting in the top 5 every year passed on both of them.


Just 3-4 teams right there, look at what they COULD have been in 3 years, EASY. EASSSSSSSSSY. And some of you are selling me that they HAVE to overpay players we already KNOW won't develop into anything for them outside of middling NBA team. LMAO, the Clippers could have had Kyrie, Gordon, Aminou, Blake, DeAndre with Bledsoe as a 6th man all under 24 at LOW COST and bought 2-3 free agents for middle of the pack deals and been a 9 deep team for the next decade easy. EASY. That's when you can begin to overpay to keep your own pieces in place and once the fanbase is on board with all the talent you've brought in. At that point, you spend your money wisely, or aggressively.

Minny with Pekovic, Love, Paul George, Steph and Rubio in 3 drafts. Good thing they drafted 4 other PG's and a few more stiffs. klasdhfkhadfh;h


Pekovic, Love, George, Steph, and Rubio.........I'm not going to sleep tonight and they aren't even my team. Oh my God.

But hey, they don't need George and Steph when they can overpay 28 million for Kevin Martin, right guys? Have to do it, cuz ya know, you're a mid market team, nobody will come play for you. Yeah.....

 

[Ja's 2¢]

Throb is the black Tyler Hansborough

speaking of Tyler, Pacers rescinded their qualifying offer to him making him an unrestricted FA. Plus the previous report of him saying he wants to be a starter.

 

[championboyz7]

The draft isn't regarded well enough in the NBA yet, imo. Either the scouting isn't enough, or teams just don't pay attention or what, I don't know, but so much talent flops while other talents emerge. Some of it may just be pure stupidity, but you have to play it out and not be careless. Some examples.

Minnesota in 07 drafts OJ Mayo and trades for Kevin Love. Smart.
08 Draft Pekovic. Draft and trade Chalmers, another PG
Take Rubio AND Flynn in 09???? Then to be funny, take Lawson and trade him too. (the ****?) But they keep Wayne Ellington.
Steph Curry was sitting there. Love, Pekovic, Steph, Rubio, in TWO YEARS, this could have been a foursome.
2010, Minny takes Wes Johnson......over Gordon Hayward or Paul George.
2011, D Williams over Kawhi, or Klay Thompson. Cavs get Kyrie at 1, could have had one of those guys at 4, or Vucevic.

OKC in 07 gets Durant and Jeff Green, trades Carl Landry (ouch)
Next year they grab Russ and Ibaka (!!!!)
in 09 they get Harden.
10 they take Bledsoe, traded to the Clippers.

Clippers get Gordon and DeAndre.
09 they get Blake.
10 they get Aminou and Bledsoe.
11 pick becomes Kyrie Irving since they traded an unprotected pick. (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Nuggets by the way get Lawson in a trade at 18 and Faried at 22 in back to back years. Good thing these crappy teams drafting in the top 5 every year passed on both of them.


Just 3-4 teams right there, look at what they COULD have been in 3 years, EASY. EASSSSSSSSSY. And some of you are selling me that they HAVE to overpay players we already KNOW won't develop into anything for them outside of middling NBA team. LMAO, the Clippers could have had Kyrie, Gordon, Aminou, Blake, DeAndre with Bledsoe as a 6th man all under 24 at LOW COST and bought 2-3 free agents for middle of the pack deals and been a 9 deep team for the next decade easy. EASY. That's when you can begin to overpay to keep your own pieces in place and once the fanbase is on board with all the talent you've brought in. At that point, you spend your money wisely, or aggressively.

Minny with Pekovic, Love, Paul George, Steph and Rubio in 3 drafts. Good thing they drafted 4 other PG's and a few more stiffs. klasdhfkhadfh;h


Pekovic, Love, George, Steph, and Rubio.........I'm not going to sleep tonight and they aren't even my team. Oh my God.

But hey, they don't need George and Steph when they can overpay 28 million for Kevin Martin, right guys? Have to do it, cuz ya know, you're a mid market team, nobody will come play for you. Yeah.....

Yeah but like they said. Its luck.
Nobody knows how those players would pan out. Kobe got drafted and traded to the Lakers and the rest is history. So its luck and smart drafting. Derrick Williams looks like a beast coming out of Arizona too and kahn drafting all those pgs never gets old

 

[jj watt]

Half of drafting is luck.

Half of scouting.

Luck in the sense that player you scouted is there when your team picks.

Or luck when another player you scouted is already taken.

Like it's been said over and over.

Seattle has that 1st, they take Oden, not Durant and who knows how everything else lands.

 

[CP1708]

Yeah but like they said. Its luck.
Nobody knows how those players would pan out. Kobe got drafted and traded to the Lakers and the rest is history. So its luck and smart drafting. Derrick Williams looks like a beast coming out of Arizona too

Drafting wisely (or luckily) for 3 years >>>>>>>> overspending on guys washed out or without significant room for improvement.


My current example of someone doin it is Orlando. LOVE what they are up too. Forced to flip their franchise player, they end up with Vucevic, then they wisely sneak in and grab Tobias Harris for JJ Redick. Pair those two with Mo Harkless, draft Victor Oladipo and have a couple tradeable assets left in Jameer, Affalo, and Baby Davis. 4 guys under age 22, all brought in within the last 12 months, now they get another top 3-5-7ish pick next year, and add another piece to these guys. Within 2 more years, they can make any deals needed or maybe sign a vet to fill in any gaps with this core they've built.

It doesn't take forever. It can be done quickly and correctly. 50 million for Tyrekes and Rudy's of the world is a beyond stupid move and just wasting time, plus those players are decent enough to knock you from top of the draft, to the 11th-14th pick where you can't improve as much as you could in the top 5.

There is ZERO defense any other way.


I understand New Orleans having Davis, JRue, Tyreke, Gordon as a core is a nice start, with Anderson and Rivers as secondary pieces, but had they stayed with Davis and Noel and a top pick next year, they could suddenly make a huge OKC type leap. Maybe I'm wrong, but signing Tyreke and JRue stunts their ability to move unless they deal Gordon, but they you dependin on Rivers for something, and that's not gonna work out so well. Iono, we'll see I guess.

 

[jj watt]

Everyone agrees with what the Pelicans are doing is

 

[dt43]

The draft isn't regarded well enough in the NBA yet, imo. Either the scouting isn't enough, or teams just don't pay attention or what, I don't know, but so much talent flops while other talents emerge. Some of it may just be pure stupidity, but you have to play it out and not be careless. Some examples.

Minnesota in 07 drafts OJ Mayo and trades for Kevin Love. Smart.
08 Draft Pekovic. Draft and trade Chalmers, another PG
Take Rubio AND Flynn in 09???? Then to be funny, take Lawson and trade him too. (the ****?) But they keep Wayne Ellington.
Steph Curry was sitting there. Love, Pekovic, Steph, Rubio, in TWO YEARS, this could have been a foursome.
2010, Minny takes Wes Johnson......over Gordon Hayward or Paul George.
2011, D Williams over Kawhi, or Klay Thompson. Cavs get Kyrie at 1, could have had one of those guys at 4, or Vucevic.

OKC in 07 gets Durant and Jeff Green, trades Carl Landry (ouch)
Next year they grab Russ and Ibaka (!!!!)
in 09 they get Harden.
10 they take Bledsoe, traded to the Clippers.

Clippers get Gordon and DeAndre.
09 they get Blake.
10 they get Aminou and Bledsoe.
11 pick becomes Kyrie Irving since they traded an unprotected pick. (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Nuggets by the way get Lawson in a trade at 18 and Faried at 22 in back to back years. Good thing these crappy teams drafting in the top 5 every year passed on both of them.


Just 3-4 teams right there, look at what they COULD have been in 3 years, EASY. EASSSSSSSSSY. And some of you are selling me that they HAVE to overpay players we already KNOW won't develop into anything for them outside of middling NBA team. LMAO, the Clippers could have had Kyrie, Gordon, Aminou, Blake, DeAndre with Bledsoe as a 6th man all under 24 at LOW COST and bought 2-3 free agents for middle of the pack deals and been a 9 deep team for the next decade easy. EASY. That's when you can begin to overpay to keep your own pieces in place and once the fanbase is on board with all the talent you've brought in. At that point, you spend your money wisely, or aggressively.

Minny with Pekovic, Love, Paul George, Steph and Rubio in 3 drafts. Good thing they drafted 4 other PG's and a few more stiffs. klasdhfkhadfh;h


Pekovic, Love, George, Steph, and Rubio.........I'm not going to sleep tonight and they aren't even my team. Oh my God.

But hey, they don't need George and Steph when they can overpay 28 million for Kevin Martin, right guys? Have to do it, cuz ya know, you're a mid market team, nobody will come play for you. Yeah.....

And another inept franchise, the Wizards, gave Minny that #5 pick in 2009 for Mike Miller and Randy Foye. That could have been Curry.

Or even after that, in the first round of 2011 they took two D-league level players who will be out of the league within 1-2 yrs (Jan Vesely and Chris Singleton). Washington's #6 and #18 picks could have been Klay Thompson/Kawhi Leonard/Vucevic + Faried/Tobias Harris.

So all things being equal, Washington could be looking at Wall/Beal/Leonard/Faried/Noel, all under 23. Or maybe Wall/Beal/Porter/Faried/Vucevic. Instead they're overpaying for journeyman SFs. Stupid teams gonna stupid..

 

[CP1708]

And another inept franchise, the Wizards, gave Minny that #5 pick in 2009 for Mike Miller and Randy Foye. That could have been Curry.

Or even after that, in the first round of 2011 they took two D-league level players who will be out of the league within 1-2 yrs (Jan Vesely and Chris Singleton). Washington's #6 and #18 picks could have been Klay Thompson/Kawhi Leonard/Vucevic + Faried/Tobias Harris.

So all things being equal, Washington could be looking at Wall/Beal/Leonard/Faried/Noel, all under 23. Or maybe Wall/Beal/Porter/Faried/Vucevic. Instead they're overpaying for journeyman SFs. Stupid teams gonna stupid..

Yeesh. That's a damn good example too.

Exactly the point I've been trying to make. These teams stop screwing up the draft, they don't throw dumb money at mid level players. All that market blaming crap before the lockout was smokescreen blame deflection.


I don't have all the names, but I know the Suns have sold a ton of picks that turned out to be great players. Loul Deng, Marcin Gortat, Rajon Rondo, Rudy Fernandez, Nate Rob, Captain Jack all players the Suns sold. In the middle of the Nash/Stat/Marion/Bell/Diaw teams they could have had Deng and Rondo off the bench learning the NBA their way. There's your difference between being "good" and winning a title or two.

Crazy stuff, that seems to keep happening to the same teams.

 

[statis22]

So in retrospect if Jan Vesely is considered a bust then Washington pretty much got a do over with the Otto Porter pick.

How Porter develops could be directly tied into whether they can keep John Wall when he becomes a UFA.