Post Your Greatest Pitcher Ever

the professor greg maddux. in my opinion, the greatest control pitcher ever. he came up in an era where a lot of the pitchers had crazy heat and this man, withhis 88 mph fastball, still gave hitters the business when they stepped to the plate. even though he is no longer with the Cubs, i wish this man all the successin the world.
 
All-time:
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Maybe not the best, but my current favorite:

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I just want to throw this out there as an opinion I have always, ALWAYS had regarding ERAs.

A pitcher's ERA is to ENTIRELY his; it belongs to him and his team.

The team has practically nothing to do with his strikes and balls, but they have a TON to do with his ERA. Pedro has had some INCREDIBLE years of dominantERAs, but what would his ERA look like if he were on Red Sox/Mets teams full of MLB prospects instead of actual MLBers?

But a strikeout is practically all on the pitcher, and it's for that reason that I name Nolan, and for that reason I have always named Nolan.

I remember when I first starting to learn baseball, I thought about the inherent flaw in crediting/faulting a pitcher for his ERA. Sure, he can pitch a certainway to induce a popup, grounder, weak flare to an outfielder, but he still needs the other guy with a glove to make a play. On a strikeout, he doesn't needanyone else; he just Ks the guy.

ERA = HR

If I hit 50 HRs and you hit 50 HRs, aren't we both the same in that category?

But if every single one of my HRs came with nobody on, is that my fault? And if every single one of your HRs came with the bases loaded, is that to yourcredit?

(Sure, we could get into a separate argument of 'Well how many bases loaded opportunities did you have? Did you have some and you failed to produce, onlyhitting HRs when the bases were empty? What about me? Did I have any opportunities to hit solo HRs, but coach wanted me to get on base every timeinstead?', but let's not look too deep into this hypothetical, since it is, after all, just a hypothetical.)

Is that really to your credit that you're going to have 50 HRs and 200 RBIs while I only have 50 HRs and 50 RBIs?

I've always looked at RBIs and ERAs like that. We credit a single person for these numbers, but that's not really fair to every else we're judgingagainst that person.

And speaking of needing 8 solid gloves to help protect your ERA, that's why I mentioned Maddux as my favorite of our time; he plays his position betterthan any pitcher of our time, (and in my opinion, better than any pitcher EVER).
 
Best pitcher ever:

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By the way, he's certainly not the best pitcher ever, but Babe Ruth had some absurdly good pitching numbers. I don't know if they were skewed for onereason or another, but some of the numbers were insane.

Year Ag Tm Lg W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
1914 19 BOS AL 18 8 32 28 16 1 3 0 217.7 166 80 59 3 85 112 6 9 895 1 2.44 2.78 114 1.153
1916 21 BOS AL 23 12 44 41 23 9 3 1 323.7 230 83 63 0 118 170 8 3 1300 1 1.75 2.77 158 1.075
1917 22 BOS AL 24 13 41 38 35 6 2 2 326.3 244 91 73 2 108 128 11 5 1313 0 2.01 2.58 128 1.079
1918 23 BOS AL 13 7 20 19 18 1 0 0 166.3 125 51 41 1 49 40 2 3 660 1 2.22 2.69 121 1.046
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^ You have just lost all rights to ever call any of my jokes corny ever again.

Good job.

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obviously, i've never seen him pitch, but:


[table][tr][td] Cy Young
Cy Young Pitching Stats
[/td] [/tr][tr][td]Year[/td] [td]Team[/td] [td]G[/td] [td]GS[/td] [td]GF[/td] [td]W[/td] [td]L[/td] [td]PCT[/td] [td]ERA[/td] [td]CG[/td] [td]SHO[/td] [td]SV[/td] [td]IP[/td] [td]BFP[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]ER[/td] [td]R[/td] [td]HR[/td] [td]BB[/td] [td]IBB[/td] [td]SO[/td] [td]WP[/td] [td]HBP[/td] [td]BK[/td] [td]HLD[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1890[/td] [td]Spiders[/td] [td]17[/td] [td]16[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]7[/td] [td].563[/td] [td]3.47[/td] [td]16[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]147.2[/td] [td]607[/td] [td]145[/td] [td]57[/td] [td]87[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]30[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]39[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1891[/td] [td]Spiders[/td] [td]55[/td] [td]46[/td] [td]8[/td] [td]27[/td] [td]22[/td] [td].551[/td] [td]2.85[/td] [td]43[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]423.2[/td] [td]1,830[/td] [td]431[/td] [td]134[/td] [td]244[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]140[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]147[/td] [td]12[/td] [td]11[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1892[/td] [td]Spiders[/td] [td]53[/td] [td]49[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]36[/td] [td]12[/td] [td].750[/td] [td]1.93[/td] [td]48[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]453.0[/td] [td]1,826[/td] [td]363[/td] [td]97[/td] [td]158[/td] [td]8[/td] [td]118[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]168[/td] [td]13[/td] [td]8[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1893[/td] [td]Spiders[/td] [td]53[/td] [td]46[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]34[/td] [td]16[/td] [td].680[/td] [td]3.36[/td] [td]42[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]422.2[/td] [td]1,774[/td] [td]442[/td] [td]158[/td] [td]230[/td] [td]10[/td] [td]103[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]102[/td] [td]14[/td] [td]10[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1894[/td] [td]Spiders[/td] [td]52[/td] [td]47[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]26[/td] [td]21[/td] [td].553[/td] [td]3.94[/td] [td]44[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]408.2[/td] [td]1,825[/td] [td]488[/td] [td]179[/td] [td]265[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]106[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]108[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1895[/td] [td]Spiders[/td] [td]47[/td] [td]40[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]35[/td] [td]10[/td] [td].778[/td] [td]3.26[/td] [td]36[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]369.2[/td] [td]1,563[/td] [td]363[/td] [td]134[/td] [td]177[/td] [td]10[/td] [td]75[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]121[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]8[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1896[/td] [td]Spiders[/td] [td]51[/td] [td]46[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]28[/td] [td]15[/td] [td].651[/td] [td]3.24[/td] [td]42[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]414.1[/td] [td]1,781[/td] [td]477[/td] [td]149[/td] [td]214[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]62[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]140[/td] [td]10[/td] [td]10[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1897[/td] [td]Spiders[/td] [td]46[/td] [td]38[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]21[/td] [td]19[/td] [td].525[/td] [td]3.78[/td] [td]35[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]335.2[/td] [td]1,423[/td] [td]391[/td] [td]141[/td] [td]189[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]49[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]88[/td] [td]14[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1898[/td] [td]Spiders[/td] [td]46[/td] [td]41[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]25[/td] [td]13[/td] [td].658[/td] [td]2.53[/td] [td]40[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]377.2[/td] [td]1,554[/td] [td]387[/td] [td]106[/td] [td]167[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]41[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]101[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1899[/td] [td]Perfectos[/td] [td]44[/td] [td]42[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]26[/td] [td]16[/td] [td].619[/td] [td]2.58[/td] [td]40[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]369.1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]368[/td] [td]106[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]10[/td] [td]44[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]111[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1900[/td] [td]Cardinals[/td] [td]41[/td] [td]35[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]19[/td] [td].500[/td] [td]3.00[/td] [td]32[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]321.1[/td] [td]1,325[/td] [td]337[/td] [td]107[/td] [td]144[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]36[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]115[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1901[/td] [td]Americans[/td] [td]43[/td] [td]41[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]33[/td] [td]10[/td] [td].767[/td] [td]1.62[/td] [td]38[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]371.1[/td] [td]1,466[/td] [td]324[/td] [td]67[/td] [td]112[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]37[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]158[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]8[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1902[/td] [td]Americans[/td] [td]45[/td] [td]43[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]32[/td] [td]11[/td] [td].744[/td] [td]2.15[/td] [td]41[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]384.2[/td] [td]1,527[/td] [td]350[/td] [td]92[/td] [td]136[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]53[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]160[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]13[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1903[/td] [td]Americans[/td] [td]40[/td] [td]35[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]28[/td] [td]9[/td] [td].757[/td] [td]2.08[/td] [td]34[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]341.2[/td] [td]1,335[/td] [td]294[/td] [td]79[/td] [td]115[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]37[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]176[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1904[/td] [td]Americans[/td] [td]43[/td] [td]41[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]26[/td] [td]16[/td] [td].619[/td] [td]1.97[/td] [td]40[/td] [td]10[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]380.0[/td] [td]1,475[/td] [td]327[/td] [td]83[/td] [td]104[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]29[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]200[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1905[/td] [td]Americans[/td] [td]38[/td] [td]33[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]19[/td] [td].486[/td] [td]1.82[/td] [td]31[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]320.2[/td] [td]1,238[/td] [td]248[/td] [td]65[/td] [td]99[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]30[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]210[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]10[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1906[/td] [td]Americans[/td] [td]39[/td] [td]34[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]13[/td] [td]21[/td] [td].382[/td] [td]3.19[/td] [td]28[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]287.2[/td] [td]1,150[/td] [td]288[/td] [td]102[/td] [td]137[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]25[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]140[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]8[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1907[/td] [td]Americans[/td] [td]43[/td] [td]37[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]21[/td] [td]15[/td] [td].583[/td] [td]1.99[/td] [td]33[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]343.1[/td] [td]1,328[/td] [td]286[/td] [td]76[/td] [td]101[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]51[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]147[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1908[/td] [td]Red Sox[/td] [td]36[/td] [td]33[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]21[/td] [td]11[/td] [td].656[/td] [td]1.26[/td] [td]30[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]299.0[/td] [td]1,143[/td] [td]230[/td] [td]42[/td] [td]68[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]37[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]150[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1909[/td] [td]Naps[/td] [td]35[/td] [td]34[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]15[/td] [td].559[/td] [td]2.26[/td] [td]30[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]294.1[/td] [td]1,172[/td] [td]267[/td] [td]74[/td] [td]110[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]59[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]109[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]8[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1910[/td] [td]Naps[/td] [td]21[/td] [td]20[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]10[/td] [td].412[/td] [td]2.53[/td] [td]14[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]163.1[/td] [td]638[/td] [td]149[/td] [td]46[/td] [td]62[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]27[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]58[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1911[/td] [td]Naps[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]4[/td] [td].429[/td] [td]3.88[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]46.1[/td] [td]200[/td] [td]54[/td] [td]20[/td] [td]28[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]13[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]20[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1911[/td] [td]Rustlers[/td] [td]11[/td] [td]11[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]5[/td] [td].444[/td] [td]3.71[/td] [td]8[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]80.0[/td] [td]337[/td] [td]83[/td] [td]33[/td] [td]47[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]15[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]35[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][tr][td]Career[/td] [td]G[/td] [td]GS[/td] [td]GF[/td] [td]W[/td] [td]L[/td] [td]PCT[/td] [td]ERA[/td] [td]CG[/td] [td]SHO[/td] [td]SV[/td] [td]IP[/td] [td]BFP[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]ER[/td] [td]R[/td] [td]HR[/td] [td]BB[/td] [td]IBB[/td] [td]SO[/td] [td]WP[/td] [td]HBP[/td] [td]BK[/td] [td]HLD[/td] [/tr][tr][td]22 Years[/td] [td]906[/td] [td]815[/td] [td]82[/td] [td]511[/td] [td]316[/td] [td].618[/td] [td]2.63[/td] [td]749[/td] [td]76[/td] [td]17[/td] [td]7,356.0[/td] [td]28,517[/td] [td]7,092[/td] [td]2,147[/td] [td]2,994[/td] [td]138[/td] [td]1,217[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]2,803[/td] [td]150[/td] [td]157[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][/table]

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^ And unless I'm reading something wrong... 48 complete games.

That's ridiculous.
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Oh, and 168 strikeouts. No biggie.
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See, that's where I disagree with you, Ska. Strikeouts, while do show domination, one on one, I do think they are overrated when determining the overalleffectiveness of a pitcher. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter how you get out the batter, as long as he doesn't score. Answer me this;who would you rather have? A pitcher with 300 K's and 4.50 ERA, or a pitcher with 100 K's and and a 2.00 ERA?

As you equivilate ERA to RBI, I equate K's to dunks. Rip Hamilton needs his teammates to set screens, to score, right? At the end of the day a dunk isstill worth 2 points, even though it looks more dominating.
 
isn't kinda funny how today's athlete is "bigger, stronger, and faster" yet a hundred years ago Cy Young could pitch 50 something games withlike 40 CG's.
 
all the old heads i speak to say sandy koufax was the best. i work wit some dudes, all in their 60's and up, who lived through those days when nyc had 3teams and some of their stories really fascinate me. hearing them tell me old stories about seeing mickey mantle, willie mays, sandy koufax, don drysdale,whitey ford and others play gives me the chills. the best pitchers i ever seen are :

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the PGA tour:
A pitcher with 300 K's and 4.50 ERA, or a pitcher with 100 K's and and a 2.00 ERA?
Well, considering my pick for greatest pitcher, it would be safe to assume that I would go with the 300 Ks/4.50 ERA guy, ESPECIALLY if I learnedthat he was on a team inferior to the team behind the 100Ks/2.00 guy.
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i feel very lucky to have seen Greg maddux pitch 3 times.
he is most definitely the greatest pitcher of our time.
 
Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

the PGA tour:
A pitcher with 300 K's and 4.50 ERA, or a pitcher with 100 K's and and a 2.00 ERA?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Well, considering my pick for greatest pitcher, it would be safe to assume that I would go with the 300 Ks/4.50 ERA guy, ESPECIALLY if I learned that he was on a team inferior to the team behind the 100Ks/2.00 guy.


Well...Let's just agree to disagree then..
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And btw, Pedro never had a good defensive team in Boston, until halfway through his last year here.
 
Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

I just want to throw this out there as an opinion I have always, ALWAYS had regarding ERAs.

A pitcher's ERA is to ENTIRELY his; it belongs to him and his team.

The team has practically nothing to do with his strikes and balls, but they have a TON to do with his ERA. Pedro has had some INCREDIBLE years of dominant ERAs, but what would his ERA look like if he were on Red Sox/Mets teams full of MLB prospects instead of actual MLBers?

But a strikeout is practically all on the pitcher, and it's for that reason that I name Nolan, and for that reason I have always named Nolan.

I remember when I first starting to learn baseball, I thought about the inherent flaw in crediting/faulting a pitcher for his ERA. Sure, he can pitch a certain way to induce a popup, grounder, weak flare to an outfielder, but he still needs the other guy with a glove to make a play. On a strikeout, he doesn't need anyone else; he just Ks the guy.

ERA = HR

If I hit 50 HRs and you hit 50 HRs, aren't we both the same in that category?

But if every single one of my HRs came with nobody on, is that my fault? And if every single one of your HRs came with the bases loaded, is that to your credit?

(Sure, we could get into a separate argument of 'Well how many bases loaded opportunities did you have? Did you have some and you failed to produce, only hitting HRs when the bases were empty? What about me? Did I have any opportunities to hit solo HRs, but coach wanted me to get on base every time instead?', but let's not look too deep into this hypothetical, since it is, after all, just a hypothetical.)

Is that really to your credit that you're going to have 50 HRs and 200 RBIs while I only have 50 HRs and 50 RBIs?

I've always looked at RBIs and ERAs like that. We credit a single person for these numbers, but that's not really fair to every else we're judging against that person.

And speaking of needing 8 solid gloves to help protect your ERA, that's why I mentioned Maddux as my favorite of our time; he plays his position better than any pitcher of our time, (and in my opinion, better than any pitcher EVER).
Click to expand...

WHIP > ERA, IMO. I think that is a more telling tale of how good a pitcher is. Anything 1.0 or less is outstanding. Even at 1.0 that means that apitcher averages one hit or walk given up per inning, but most pitchers don't go a full game so most likely it will always be at least 1.0 or more. Whichmakes Bob Gibsons season even more impressive... Dude had a .853 WHIP in '68
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Another guy who was really solid was Orel Hershiser. 59 consecutive scoreless innings
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That's almost 7 straight games with shutouts...
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I wasn't born yet, and I don't think he's the greatest pitcher ever, but Dwight Gooden's stats in the 1985 season were ridiculous.

24-4 (35 Games Started), 16 Complete Games, 8 Shutouts, 276.7 IP, 268 Ks, 1.53 ERA
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