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You know Tight Ends weren't used like that bad then
The point is Edmunds was one of the better ones
The point is Edmunds was one of the better ones
QB THREAD - 2x quarterbacky award winner: Lamar Jackson
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Exactly, they weren't really offensive threats, hence little help for any QB in the big picture
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Please don't use Pro Bowls in arguments btw. Ryan Mathews, Jermaine Gresham, Matt Cassel, Dwayne Bowe, Marcedes Lewis, Vince Young, Ronnie Brown, Derek Anderson, Braylon Edwards, Marion Barber, Miles Austin, Doug Martin and CJ Spiller are all Pro Bowlers.
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No they were inline
They weren't used like Gonzalez, Graham and Gronk were they lined up in the slot
They were still weapons who were helped teams though
Marino had way better tight ends compared to Elway
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Pro Bowlers are way more watered down now with the current format than they were in the 1980-1990s
Sure you may have suspect Pro Bowlers who get in by default but 2 times? nah
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Ok dude, I don't even know what you want at this point. For me to discredit Marino because he had a complete team with a star tight end named Ferrell Edmunds? This has been the point that's been harped on for pages. This is the main piece of evidence that Marino had good teams. I'm willing to say whatever you want at this point, so if that's the narrative then I co-sign 
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Dan Marino was a great quarterback probably top 5 but to say he's the GOAT is laughable
He had just as much of a supporting cast as many other great quarterbacks
To say Marino is the best says you just value passing yards and TDs but don't value winning, ball security, clutchiness or leadership
He had just as much of a supporting cast as many other great quarterbacks
To say Marino is the best says you just value passing yards and TDs but don't value winning, ball security, clutchiness or leadership
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DeadsetAce
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elpablo21
i don't mean to use that a sole reason in judging a QB...but how can you discount it so much? hell, it's the reason most people have Joe Cool as GOAT...his performance in big games (not saying I do, but so many football people do)
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Great post back there, CP. Took the time to read it and it's the same scramble that I have when trying to evaluate QB's. The information is a tangled web of variables and it's impossible to arrive at one formula that organizes everything. Basically, everyone settles on a few principles that outweigh others. Things such as stats or titles are a big part of lots of people's argument, but at this point, I can only use it as a part of the equation. These days, I trust my instincts and rely on the eye test. Obviously, that's a luxury that I don't have for quarterbacks going back to a certain point. It's all fun to argue, but the eye test still needs to be put into context and perspective. It's fun to talk about, but obviously the masses won't ever agree. I think that's why it's so intriguing to hear everyone's "formula" and reasonings/counter arguments.
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When I was rambling, I kind of laughed at how many guys BEST years, were not titles, and "lesser" years they won plenty of titles.
Magic won a title as a rookie. Clearly he wasn't at his peak as a rookie. But it's an example.
Elway won his 2 when he was old and slower, clearly not his peak.
The MJ/Kobe/Bron examples I used at the time.
Hell, Brady won his as a kid, now that he's BRADY, he hasn't won yet. (tho, he was 2 miracles away from doing so)
Ben in his 2nd year, not even CLOSE to how good he is now, and he isn't winning now.
Just striking how their greatness doesn't line up with the year's they actually win. Peyton's one win, during his worst postseason run, but Rex Grossman.
Just a really strange way things line up. And I just rambled my way thru it, wasn't sure if I was really making any sort of point.
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Agree, it's so hard to make these sweeping an definitive statements because we all give different weights to these variables. Unless it's something outlandish (i.e. Troy Aikman is the GOAT QB) then it should be a fluid discussion and opinions instead of absolutes
Chester, DMX, for those of you begging to know what Ferrell Edmunds is about (and I know we all are), he played 66 games in Miami in 5 seasons. He had 1,600 yards and 10 touchdowns in his 5 seasons. 33 catches his rookie year, a career high for him. 117 total.
Dan Marino probably had nothing to do with him making those 2 "pro bowls."
Dan Marino probably had nothing to do with him making those 2 "pro bowls."
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Peyton- 0 probably will be 1 or 2
Brady- 0 probably Randy Moss maybe Gronk?
Marino-2
Montana- 4
Kelly-4
Aikman- 4
Favre- 1
Elway-2
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elpablo21
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I agree it should be part of the equation. I didnt mean to come off as absolving him of any fault, it should count and matter in where he lies within the list of all time greats. I just dont know how much of the equation it should be used to judge his overall legacy and how far it drops him down the list (for me at least)
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Anyone ever get the sense that Peyton is alone on offense?
I'm not talking about his weapons and such, but more of the behind the scenes stuff. I wish I could be in the quarterback room and offensive meetings with Peyton dating back to maybe his 3th to 6th year in the league. I get the sense that he's wearing two hats all the time and it's too much. QB and OC. I don't think any one man or QB can do it on his own and it might be an excuse, but I feel like it's a big part of why he's struggled so tremendously in the postseason.
At a certain point, his OC's became nothing more than a person of input, but after the game plan, the execution all starts and goes through Peyton. We already know he's one of the only ones that literally look to call or change every play at the line every pre-snap. He's always wanted it done his way. It looks like it goes beyond just rapport with receivers and RB alignment and what not. He knows so much about the game that he's trying to dictate where each individual on offense needs to be all between the whistles as the play clock winds down.
If he lessened his load I think he would be better, but I'm not so sure Peyton can play without having so much control. He's too far invested into this style that he's become his own worst enemy. Doing too much and in the NFL, it doesn't matter who you are, you'll get beat.
That might be wrong, but I think there's at least some grain of truth to this and it's definitely a sense I get when watching him on the sidelines and on the field, both pre and post snap.
I'm not talking about his weapons and such, but more of the behind the scenes stuff. I wish I could be in the quarterback room and offensive meetings with Peyton dating back to maybe his 3th to 6th year in the league. I get the sense that he's wearing two hats all the time and it's too much. QB and OC. I don't think any one man or QB can do it on his own and it might be an excuse, but I feel like it's a big part of why he's struggled so tremendously in the postseason.
At a certain point, his OC's became nothing more than a person of input, but after the game plan, the execution all starts and goes through Peyton. We already know he's one of the only ones that literally look to call or change every play at the line every pre-snap. He's always wanted it done his way. It looks like it goes beyond just rapport with receivers and RB alignment and what not. He knows so much about the game that he's trying to dictate where each individual on offense needs to be all between the whistles as the play clock winds down.
If he lessened his load I think he would be better, but I'm not so sure Peyton can play without having so much control. He's too far invested into this style that he's become his own worst enemy. Doing too much and in the NFL, it doesn't matter who you are, you'll get beat.
That might be wrong, but I think there's at least some grain of truth to this and it's definitely a sense I get when watching him on the sidelines and on the field, both pre and post snap.
DeadsetAce
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probably belongs in here more than in WIR...
DeadsetAce
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i think there's definitely some truth to it. he's like a supercomputer. trying to process it all and get everything down to a science. problem is, the game doesn't get played like a computer processes info. variables change. he's like the person that studies too hard for the exam and just out thinks themselves.
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Chester, DMX, for those of you begging to know what Ferrell Edmunds is about (and I know we all are), he played 66 games in Miami in 5 seasons. He had 1,600 yards and 10 touchdowns in his 5 seasons. 33 catches his rookie year, a career high for him. 117 total.
Dan Marino probably had nothing to do with him making those 2 "pro bowls."
You know damn well those went horrible numbers for Tight End in that time periodEdmunds gets injured
Who do the Dolphins happen to fall into Keith Jackson!
Arguably the best tight end of the era
Keith Jackson was 3 time All Pro up to then and in his prime at 27
Doesnt fit the narrative of Marino had no help though
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Names of said HOFers?
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Then you're gonna play a pissing contest of this guy is a better HOF than that HOFerIf you want to discredit them go look them up yourself
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Marino had How many??? I know of one coach and a couple lineman... unless i missed something.
I'm slightly younger than CP... and I can't really add anything that CP hasn't already said.
I can only emphasize this... Dude, just stop. You don't know what you're talking about.
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Chester, DMX, for those of you begging to know what Ferrell Edmunds is about (and I know we all are), he played 66 games in Miami in 5 seasons. He had 1,600 yards and 10 touchdowns in his 5 seasons. 33 catches his rookie year, a career high for him. 117 total.
Dan Marino probably had nothing to do with him making those 2 "pro bowls."
Edmunds gets injured
Who do the Dolphins happen to fall into Keith Jackson!
Arguably the best tight end of the era
Keith Jackson was 3 time All Pro up to then and in his prime at 27
Doesnt fit the narrative of Marino had no help though
And Keith Jackson played 2 years in Miami (3 including the year Marino was out)
Listen, I know you are desperate to try and prove something, but get this thru your head. Jackson, Edmunds, Clayton, Duper, Fryar, McDuffie, John Offerdahl, Jeff Cross, Bryan Cox, Jason Taylor, Zach Thomas, Sam Madison, etc etc etc didn't all play at the same time. Marino was there 17 years. He had decent players with him, but not all at the same time, like you are trying to claim.
At some point, you need to comprehend that and stop rolling them all into one roster. Use Google better please.
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Ive never claimed all those dudes were on one team dude
When I counted the Pro Bowlers, I stopped at 1994 which you said was end of Marinos prime
Google
Yes I have used to Google to confirm my recollections as do you
When I counted the Pro Bowlers, I stopped at 1994 which you said was end of Marinos prime
Yes I have used to Google to confirm my recollections as do you
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