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I'm a Lebron fan not a Cav's fan.. can't wait to see how the Heat's roll when season starts up.
not a Heat's fan btw.
Soooo, has LeBron surpassed Kobe as the most hated? Vol. Dan Gilbert
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by got shoes,
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I'm a Lebron fan not a Cav's fan.. can't wait to see how the Heat's roll when season starts up.
not a Heat's fan btw.
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Yes, he is ruining his legacy. I could tell myself over and over that Gilbert Arenas hasn't ruined his legacy, but just because I say it in my head doesn't make it true. Literally every bball fan I've talked to has said that Lebron is ruining his legacy with this move. Not that he won't go down as a great player, but he had the potential to go down as a top 10 player, or possibly even the GOAT, and now that has gone to %#!#.
This quote takes precedent over ANYTHING that comes out of Bryant Gumbel's mouth regarding Lebron's decision. I'll take the word of a current player who is clearly non-biased over a talking head whose basis for their viewpoint is due STRICTLY to how Lebron conducted himself.
..and the word is coming from Mr. "anything is possible" KG?
Where in that quote, did KG imply that Lebron should go play second-fiddle to another superstar in his prime? KG and Lebron were not in the same situation. the T-Wolves were wack every year he was there, with the exception of their 04 WCF run. He had experienced more 60-LOSS seasons than 60-win seasons. I can almost guarantee to you that if KG was in the same situation and Minnesota had just won 60+ games twice, he would not have left. And if he did leave, he sure as hell wouldn't have teamed up with Kobe or Duncan.
DJs what is your deal with this issue, man? You're one of my favorite NTers, but you've been defending Lebron like Gloria the past couple days? You can't block out people's reasonable, logic arguments by saying "You're just a hater" when literally EVERYBODY in the media (including current/former players) is basically saying the same thing.
What reason would Bryant Gumbel have to hate on Lebron? He's not some message board Lakers fan.. same goes for guys like Barkley and Reggie. Barkley in particular has been on Lebron's nuts since he came into the league.. You gonna call him a "hater" as well? At some point, you have to realize that, while there are some haters out there, a lot of people find legitimate reason to criticize Lebron's move. People wanted Lebron to live up to his self-proclaimed "Chosen 1" and "King James" title and push himself to his full potential as a player.. now we will likely never see that from him. That's why people are criticizing him.. it's not all "hate."
If you can't back up what you're saying other than posting your dismay from him due to how he conducted himself leading up to "The Decision," then yes...in my eyes that's hate. There are many other opposing viewpoints that i've given credit to in this thread, and I can definitely appreciate where other folks are coming from. In addition, I can understand why people may view him differently. However, when you can't separate his persona from what he actually does on the basketball court, that's a problem...no? I'm not a Lebron fan by any means....but I will defend his decision to CHOOSE where he wanted to play. I'll stand by this notion till he hangs em' up, but no matter what he chose to do....he would have been scrutinized. There was NO WAY he could have won. Lebron in a matter of a week divided many hoops fans for better/worse....he's now the most polarizing figure in the NBA...
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Yes, he is ruining his legacy. I could tell myself over and over that Gilbert Arenas hasn't ruined his legacy, but just because I say it in my head doesn't make it true. Literally every bball fan I've talked to has said that Lebron is ruining his legacy with this move. Not that he won't go down as a great player, but he had the potential to go down as a top 10 player, or possibly even the GOAT, and now that has gone to %#!#.
This quote takes precedent over ANYTHING that comes out of Bryant Gumbel's mouth regarding Lebron's decision. I'll take the word of a current player who is clearly non-biased over a talking head whose basis for their viewpoint is due STRICTLY to how Lebron conducted himself.
..and the word is coming from Mr. "anything is possible" KG?
Where in that quote, did KG imply that Lebron should go play second-fiddle to another superstar in his prime? KG and Lebron were not in the same situation. the T-Wolves were wack every year he was there, with the exception of their 04 WCF run. He had experienced more 60-LOSS seasons than 60-win seasons. I can almost guarantee to you that if KG was in the same situation and Minnesota had just won 60+ games twice, he would not have left. And if he did leave, he sure as hell wouldn't have teamed up with Kobe or Duncan.
DJs what is your deal with this issue, man? You're one of my favorite NTers, but you've been defending Lebron like Gloria the past couple days? You can't block out people's reasonable, logic arguments by saying "You're just a hater" when literally EVERYBODY in the media (including current/former players) is basically saying the same thing.
What reason would Bryant Gumbel have to hate on Lebron? He's not some message board Lakers fan.. same goes for guys like Barkley and Reggie. Barkley in particular has been on Lebron's nuts since he came into the league.. You gonna call him a "hater" as well? At some point, you have to realize that, while there are some haters out there, a lot of people find legitimate reason to criticize Lebron's move. People wanted Lebron to live up to his self-proclaimed "Chosen 1" and "King James" title and push himself to his full potential as a player.. now we will likely never see that from him. That's why people are criticizing him.. it's not all "hate."
If you can't back up what you're saying other than posting your dismay from him due to how he conducted himself leading up to "The Decision," then yes...in my eyes that's hate. There are many other opposing viewpoints that i've given credit to in this thread, and I can definitely appreciate where other folks are coming from. In addition, I can understand why people may view him differently. However, when you can't separate his persona from what he actually does on the basketball court, that's a problem...no? I'm not a Lebron fan by any means....but I will defend his decision to CHOOSE where he wanted to play. I'll stand by this notion till he hangs em' up, but no matter what he chose to do....he would have been scrutinized. There was NO WAY he could have won. Lebron in a matter of a week divided many hoops fans for better/worse....he's now the most polarizing figure in the NBA...
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Hmmm....interesting. But there is something that both Chuck and Miller have in common. And on top of it all, Chuck was trying to end his career with a ring. Again....i'll go with Garnett's quote because there are no sour grapes attached.
Yeah, they are both legends. You can go with Garnett's quote all you want to champ, either way at the end of the day as far as basketball players go Miller/Barkley>Garnett, and you can take that to the bank champ.
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Hmmm....interesting. But there is something that both Chuck and Miller have in common. And on top of it all, Chuck was trying to end his career with a ring. Again....i'll go with Garnett's quote because there are no sour grapes attached.
Yeah, they are both legends. You can go with Garnett's quote all you want to champ, either way at the end of the day as far as basketball players go Miller/Barkley>Garnett, and you can take that to the bank champ.
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at the end of the day as far as basketball players go Miller > Garnett
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at the end of the day as far as basketball players go Miller > Garnett
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There's nothing great about wasting time on a lower tiered team as 'the guy' attempting to win it all IMO. Especially if the struggle is unnecessary. Just makes that player look like a fool.
7 seasons as 'THE GUY' and he has 1 finals appearance to show for it. Y'all want him to go another 5 seasons on a similar team trying to win as other teams in his conference get even better. I'm not seeing what's 'great' about stacking the odds against yourself like that.
Webber, Miller or Barkley can't speak on that anyway. Their success stories for this scenario couldn't even be counted on one finger let alone 1 hand.
7 seasons as 'THE GUY' and he has 1 finals appearance to show for it. Y'all want him to go another 5 seasons on a similar team trying to win as other teams in his conference get even better. I'm not seeing what's 'great' about stacking the odds against yourself like that.
Webber, Miller or Barkley can't speak on that anyway. Their success stories for this scenario couldn't even be counted on one finger let alone 1 hand.
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There's nothing great about wasting time on a lower tiered team as 'the guy' attempting to win it all IMO. Especially if the struggle is unnecessary. Just makes that player look like a fool.
7 seasons as 'THE GUY' and he has 1 finals appearance to show for it. Y'all want him to go another 5 seasons on a similar team trying to win as other teams in his conference get even better. I'm not seeing what's 'great' about stacking the odds against yourself like that.
Webber, Miller or Barkley can't speak on that anyway. Their success stories for this scenario couldn't even be counted on one finger let alone 1 hand.
7 seasons as 'THE GUY' and he has 1 finals appearance to show for it. Y'all want him to go another 5 seasons on a similar team trying to win as other teams in his conference get even better. I'm not seeing what's 'great' about stacking the odds against yourself like that.
Webber, Miller or Barkley can't speak on that anyway. Their success stories for this scenario couldn't even be counted on one finger let alone 1 hand.
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and garnett has surpassed barkley too just because he has a ring
so please
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and garnett has surpassed barkley too just because he has a ring
so please
Here's my thing. This "Chosen 1" and self described "King" who has acted like the NBA should be thankful for his arrival and we should all be grateful for what he gives us on the court each game, and has acted this way since he first stepped foot onto an NBA court, and has talked about winning titles and being up there with the all time greats, a week before he was begging Bosh to take a sign and trade to Cleveland? Why? A) he didn't want to be a bad guy and leave his home, and B) he could add a legit 2 man to his squad to help him in the postseason.
What happened? Bosh said no, and went to Miami. So what did Bron do then? Recruit someone else? Nope. He ran. He ran like Red back to his car after Debo wouldn't give him his bike back, arms flailing and all. He knew he would be screwed in Cleveland and Wade and Bosh would have a better shot at big things. So he simply left. The "Chosen 1" The "King" ran to another team cuz he knew his wasn't good enough.
MAYBE if he had signed with the Heat first, and then those other two came on board, maybe in the public's perception he would have looked a little bit better. Possibly. But that's not how it all unfolded, and now he will forever be thought of as the guy that ran when the going got tough.
Here's my thing. This "Chosen 1" and self described "King" who has acted like the NBA should be thankful for his arrival and we should all be grateful for what he gives us on the court each game, and has acted this way since he first stepped foot onto an NBA court, and has talked about winning titles and being up there with the all time greats, a week before he was begging Bosh to take a sign and trade to Cleveland? Why? A) he didn't want to be a bad guy and leave his home, and B) he could add a legit 2 man to his squad to help him in the postseason.
What happened? Bosh said no, and went to Miami. So what did Bron do then? Recruit someone else? Nope. He ran. He ran like Red back to his car after Debo wouldn't give him his bike back, arms flailing and all. He knew he would be screwed in Cleveland and Wade and Bosh would have a better shot at big things. So he simply left. The "Chosen 1" The "King" ran to another team cuz he knew his wasn't good enough.
MAYBE if he had signed with the Heat first, and then those other two came on board, maybe in the public's perception he would have looked a little bit better. Possibly. But that's not how it all unfolded, and now he will forever be thought of as the guy that ran when the going got tough.
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Now that you've explained your viewpoint, I pretty much agree.
A lot of people were cracking jokes for the last ~3 years saying Lebron was going to leave Cleveland, and now that he actually left they're turning around and bashing him for leaving his hometown, as if they gave a damn about Cleveland or Ohio in the first place. I'm not gonna be one of those flip-floppers.. as far as I'm concerned, he had every right to leave Cleveland (the egregious manner in which he left aside).
However, I have to disagree that there was no way he could have won. If Lebron wanted to leave so badly, he could have just gone to the Bulls, a lot of people wouldn't have said a damn thing about that, including myself. Obviously Cleveland would still be salty, but from everyone else's perspective it would have been regarded as a great move. If Lebron wanted to lose in the public eye, this was probably the best way to do it out of all his options.
Your last paragraph is exactly why he's rubbing so many people the wrong way. I heard on the radio yesterday that Lebron has managed to piss off every major media market in the US. Chicago, NY, LA...the whole decision process was so poorly handled, and now he's (for lack of a better word) a heel. Not even loved in his home state. I think if he stayed in Cleveland you would have a lot of people questioning that move. They'd say how he may go down with the likes of Miller, Malone, Barkley, etc as great, but ringless players. If he finished his career with either no rings...or even one, there would be a ton of "what ifs" looking back to 7/1/10 when he could have jumped ship to a different city. Even with one ring (if he had stayed in Cleveland), the detractors would be out in full force saying "king who?" comparing him to Mike/Magic, etc etc....this is why I'll always say that this was a no-win situation for the guy. Lebron is no spring chicken either. Even at 25 years old, he has a lot of wear/tear on his body. I still maintain that players who jump to the NBA from HS have a much smaller window to achieve what they can in the NBA than someone else who had taken a different path. Honestly, these Lebron debates have brought out the best in NT. There is NO middle ground...either you're in his corner, or you're not. I think the one thing that everyone can agree on is how badly he dragged out "The Decision," and how he looked after. Once we get past all of that, the REAL debates start up.
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Now that you've explained your viewpoint, I pretty much agree.
A lot of people were cracking jokes for the last ~3 years saying Lebron was going to leave Cleveland, and now that he actually left they're turning around and bashing him for leaving his hometown, as if they gave a damn about Cleveland or Ohio in the first place. I'm not gonna be one of those flip-floppers.. as far as I'm concerned, he had every right to leave Cleveland (the egregious manner in which he left aside).
However, I have to disagree that there was no way he could have won. If Lebron wanted to leave so badly, he could have just gone to the Bulls, a lot of people wouldn't have said a damn thing about that, including myself. Obviously Cleveland would still be salty, but from everyone else's perspective it would have been regarded as a great move. If Lebron wanted to lose in the public eye, this was probably the best way to do it out of all his options.
Your last paragraph is exactly why he's rubbing so many people the wrong way. I heard on the radio yesterday that Lebron has managed to piss off every major media market in the US. Chicago, NY, LA...the whole decision process was so poorly handled, and now he's (for lack of a better word) a heel. Not even loved in his home state. I think if he stayed in Cleveland you would have a lot of people questioning that move. They'd say how he may go down with the likes of Miller, Malone, Barkley, etc as great, but ringless players. If he finished his career with either no rings...or even one, there would be a ton of "what ifs" looking back to 7/1/10 when he could have jumped ship to a different city. Even with one ring (if he had stayed in Cleveland), the detractors would be out in full force saying "king who?" comparing him to Mike/Magic, etc etc....this is why I'll always say that this was a no-win situation for the guy. Lebron is no spring chicken either. Even at 25 years old, he has a lot of wear/tear on his body. I still maintain that players who jump to the NBA from HS have a much smaller window to achieve what they can in the NBA than someone else who had taken a different path. Honestly, these Lebron debates have brought out the best in NT. There is NO middle ground...either you're in his corner, or you're not. I think the one thing that everyone can agree on is how badly he dragged out "The Decision," and how he looked after. Once we get past all of that, the REAL debates start up.
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IMO, Wade in the drivers seat. No matter what happens, he will have +1 on Bron no matter how many titles they win. And Wade was the sole reason for that 06 ring.
Let's say they win 2, Bron dominates and gets MVP for one, Wade takes over and gets MVP for the other. 3 titles Wade, 2 Bron, 2 MVP's Wade, 1 for Bron. Depending on how their careers total up in terms of raw numbers, Wade could get a slight nod, or at least, he will have done "more" IMO because of 06.
The NBA is such a different animal. Because it's 5 on 5 and one man can make such a difference, legacies are so fluent in how they are percieved. We RARELY ever hear any credit sent Clyde Drexlers way. He has a ring. He avoided being lumped in with Bark, Pat, Reggie, Stock and Malone etc, and yet, we don't exactly put him up there with other greats either.
GP got his ring in Miami as well, but I don't hear much credit sent his way.
They got them at the time when they weren't the face of a franchise.
Bron is certainly younger, and has plenty of time to be sure, but when it's all said and done, Wade IS the face of that franchise, and will be probably forever. Wade has a shot at being with the Heat 11-12-13 years or whatever, all the numbers/leaders of the franchise will have his name FIRST. That's big. It really is in terms of legacy, or at least when we're cashing in all your career chips.
If Bron went anywhere else, he had a decent shot imo at saving SOME face. Clips, he tries to salvage their team, destroy that curse, make people believers of them. Bulls, the return of that team, follow in MJ's shadow, maybe try to do it better then MJ did. New York, the life, the mecca, the lifestyle, a rabid fanbase. Cleveland would simply be staying home, NJ? Eh, they didn't have too much of an angle, I honestly think if they landed Wall, with Lopez, and free agent #2, Bron could have made that a very very nice situation. Jersey lost out when they lost Wall IMO. But Miami, of all the situations, was taking the easy route, the cop out. He wasn't trying to lead anymore, or be the leader, he was getting in line, behind his buddies. He's not quite Shaq in that respect, but he's close. Shaq been chasin for a few years now. Getting in line behind Wade was sad to me. That ain't what this "Chosen 1, King" was supposed to do. But maybe I'm wrong.
I agree though, the window ain't all that big. Next postseason Wade will be what, 29? Bron 26. And both got a LOT of tread on them tires already. Factor in a possible work stoppage of some sort, and they could be in danger of a season or so there as well. So I dunno about 5 years of dominance, I don't see that. There's plenty of young bucks out there that are chasin that ring just as hard. And all it takes is one off series, one ankle twist, to ruin an entire season for these 3, and then they gotta climb up all over again the following year. I see 1 to 2 TOPS out of this trio. But that's just me and my prediction. I remember Shaq and Kobe was supposed to win 5-6-7 rings themselves, and that didn't work out as we had hoped. Hope we all still here to compare notes after this all comes to end to see where we stand.
Let's say they win 2, Bron dominates and gets MVP for one, Wade takes over and gets MVP for the other. 3 titles Wade, 2 Bron, 2 MVP's Wade, 1 for Bron. Depending on how their careers total up in terms of raw numbers, Wade could get a slight nod, or at least, he will have done "more" IMO because of 06.
The NBA is such a different animal. Because it's 5 on 5 and one man can make such a difference, legacies are so fluent in how they are percieved. We RARELY ever hear any credit sent Clyde Drexlers way. He has a ring. He avoided being lumped in with Bark, Pat, Reggie, Stock and Malone etc, and yet, we don't exactly put him up there with other greats either.
GP got his ring in Miami as well, but I don't hear much credit sent his way.
They got them at the time when they weren't the face of a franchise.
Bron is certainly younger, and has plenty of time to be sure, but when it's all said and done, Wade IS the face of that franchise, and will be probably forever. Wade has a shot at being with the Heat 11-12-13 years or whatever, all the numbers/leaders of the franchise will have his name FIRST. That's big. It really is in terms of legacy, or at least when we're cashing in all your career chips.
If Bron went anywhere else, he had a decent shot imo at saving SOME face. Clips, he tries to salvage their team, destroy that curse, make people believers of them. Bulls, the return of that team, follow in MJ's shadow, maybe try to do it better then MJ did. New York, the life, the mecca, the lifestyle, a rabid fanbase. Cleveland would simply be staying home, NJ? Eh, they didn't have too much of an angle, I honestly think if they landed Wall, with Lopez, and free agent #2, Bron could have made that a very very nice situation. Jersey lost out when they lost Wall IMO. But Miami, of all the situations, was taking the easy route, the cop out. He wasn't trying to lead anymore, or be the leader, he was getting in line, behind his buddies. He's not quite Shaq in that respect, but he's close. Shaq been chasin for a few years now. Getting in line behind Wade was sad to me. That ain't what this "Chosen 1, King" was supposed to do. But maybe I'm wrong.
I agree though, the window ain't all that big. Next postseason Wade will be what, 29? Bron 26. And both got a LOT of tread on them tires already. Factor in a possible work stoppage of some sort, and they could be in danger of a season or so there as well. So I dunno about 5 years of dominance, I don't see that. There's plenty of young bucks out there that are chasin that ring just as hard. And all it takes is one off series, one ankle twist, to ruin an entire season for these 3, and then they gotta climb up all over again the following year. I see 1 to 2 TOPS out of this trio. But that's just me and my prediction. I remember Shaq and Kobe was supposed to win 5-6-7 rings themselves, and that didn't work out as we had hoped. Hope we all still here to compare notes after this all comes to end to see where we stand.
IMO, Wade in the drivers seat. No matter what happens, he will have +1 on Bron no matter how many titles they win. And Wade was the sole reason for that 06 ring.
Let's say they win 2, Bron dominates and gets MVP for one, Wade takes over and gets MVP for the other. 3 titles Wade, 2 Bron, 2 MVP's Wade, 1 for Bron. Depending on how their careers total up in terms of raw numbers, Wade could get a slight nod, or at least, he will have done "more" IMO because of 06.
The NBA is such a different animal. Because it's 5 on 5 and one man can make such a difference, legacies are so fluent in how they are percieved. We RARELY ever hear any credit sent Clyde Drexlers way. He has a ring. He avoided being lumped in with Bark, Pat, Reggie, Stock and Malone etc, and yet, we don't exactly put him up there with other greats either.
GP got his ring in Miami as well, but I don't hear much credit sent his way.
They got them at the time when they weren't the face of a franchise.
Bron is certainly younger, and has plenty of time to be sure, but when it's all said and done, Wade IS the face of that franchise, and will be probably forever. Wade has a shot at being with the Heat 11-12-13 years or whatever, all the numbers/leaders of the franchise will have his name FIRST. That's big. It really is in terms of legacy, or at least when we're cashing in all your career chips.
If Bron went anywhere else, he had a decent shot imo at saving SOME face. Clips, he tries to salvage their team, destroy that curse, make people believers of them. Bulls, the return of that team, follow in MJ's shadow, maybe try to do it better then MJ did. New York, the life, the mecca, the lifestyle, a rabid fanbase. Cleveland would simply be staying home, NJ? Eh, they didn't have too much of an angle, I honestly think if they landed Wall, with Lopez, and free agent #2, Bron could have made that a very very nice situation. Jersey lost out when they lost Wall IMO. But Miami, of all the situations, was taking the easy route, the cop out. He wasn't trying to lead anymore, or be the leader, he was getting in line, behind his buddies. He's not quite Shaq in that respect, but he's close. Shaq been chasin for a few years now. Getting in line behind Wade was sad to me. That ain't what this "Chosen 1, King" was supposed to do. But maybe I'm wrong.
I agree though, the window ain't all that big. Next postseason Wade will be what, 29? Bron 26. And both got a LOT of tread on them tires already. Factor in a possible work stoppage of some sort, and they could be in danger of a season or so there as well. So I dunno about 5 years of dominance, I don't see that. There's plenty of young bucks out there that are chasin that ring just as hard. And all it takes is one off series, one ankle twist, to ruin an entire season for these 3, and then they gotta climb up all over again the following year. I see 1 to 2 TOPS out of this trio. But that's just me and my prediction. I remember Shaq and Kobe was supposed to win 5-6-7 rings themselves, and that didn't work out as we had hoped. Hope we all still here to compare notes after this all comes to end to see where we stand.
Let's say they win 2, Bron dominates and gets MVP for one, Wade takes over and gets MVP for the other. 3 titles Wade, 2 Bron, 2 MVP's Wade, 1 for Bron. Depending on how their careers total up in terms of raw numbers, Wade could get a slight nod, or at least, he will have done "more" IMO because of 06.
The NBA is such a different animal. Because it's 5 on 5 and one man can make such a difference, legacies are so fluent in how they are percieved. We RARELY ever hear any credit sent Clyde Drexlers way. He has a ring. He avoided being lumped in with Bark, Pat, Reggie, Stock and Malone etc, and yet, we don't exactly put him up there with other greats either.
GP got his ring in Miami as well, but I don't hear much credit sent his way.
They got them at the time when they weren't the face of a franchise.
Bron is certainly younger, and has plenty of time to be sure, but when it's all said and done, Wade IS the face of that franchise, and will be probably forever. Wade has a shot at being with the Heat 11-12-13 years or whatever, all the numbers/leaders of the franchise will have his name FIRST. That's big. It really is in terms of legacy, or at least when we're cashing in all your career chips.
If Bron went anywhere else, he had a decent shot imo at saving SOME face. Clips, he tries to salvage their team, destroy that curse, make people believers of them. Bulls, the return of that team, follow in MJ's shadow, maybe try to do it better then MJ did. New York, the life, the mecca, the lifestyle, a rabid fanbase. Cleveland would simply be staying home, NJ? Eh, they didn't have too much of an angle, I honestly think if they landed Wall, with Lopez, and free agent #2, Bron could have made that a very very nice situation. Jersey lost out when they lost Wall IMO. But Miami, of all the situations, was taking the easy route, the cop out. He wasn't trying to lead anymore, or be the leader, he was getting in line, behind his buddies. He's not quite Shaq in that respect, but he's close. Shaq been chasin for a few years now. Getting in line behind Wade was sad to me. That ain't what this "Chosen 1, King" was supposed to do. But maybe I'm wrong.
I agree though, the window ain't all that big. Next postseason Wade will be what, 29? Bron 26. And both got a LOT of tread on them tires already. Factor in a possible work stoppage of some sort, and they could be in danger of a season or so there as well. So I dunno about 5 years of dominance, I don't see that. There's plenty of young bucks out there that are chasin that ring just as hard. And all it takes is one off series, one ankle twist, to ruin an entire season for these 3, and then they gotta climb up all over again the following year. I see 1 to 2 TOPS out of this trio. But that's just me and my prediction. I remember Shaq and Kobe was supposed to win 5-6-7 rings themselves, and that didn't work out as we had hoped. Hope we all still here to compare notes after this all comes to end to see where we stand.
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