What non-J's has Tinker Designed

[Sinner]

I might have missed it, but I couldn't find the AT1 patent...

 

[menoforegon]

Originally Posted by nkwu11

what's aaron cooper oding now adays?

He still has some projects here and there, but for the most part he is mentoring the younger designers in the 'Kitchen'.

I forgot to mention that you will definitely see Tinker and Phil at the `08 Olympic Trials in Eugene. I don't know how close you can get to themconsidering that they will be extremely busy mingling with all the coaches, VIP's, guests, athletes, etc. etc.. Since we are an official partner for theevent, Nike's presence will be in full force and well represented all over the place. Should be an exciting event!

 

[rudemiester]

Originally Posted by MenofOregon

P.S., if anyone gets a chance to talk to him please don't ask him "annoying" questions about the "future of Jordan Brand", or any ridiculous questions about "retros", or why Jordan Brand released "this color and that color" etc. etc.. He tends to shy away and divert from questions like that. It flat out bugs him. So please show proper respect in talking to him because he is a Nike Executive and a VP.

So I'll assume you guys have heard the frequent and nonstop complaints from disgruntled collectors and fans about retros..."Nike Air,"weak colorways, no mesh on the Air Max retros, smaller air bubbles etc etc...Why wont Nike give one of its most loyal consumer groups what they want? Is itbecause the merchandise will end up purchased regardless of whos happy or not?

I cant seem to figure out how reversing certain changes to make the shoes how they were before would hurt the company so it befuttles me as to why they wouldmake the changes in the first place. Care to shed some light?

 

[menoforegon]

Originally Posted by Rudemiester

Originally Posted by MenofOregon

P.S., if anyone gets a chance to talk to him please don't ask him "annoying" questions about the "future of Jordan Brand", or any ridiculous questions about "retros", or why Jordan Brand released "this color and that color" etc. etc.. He tends to shy away and divert from questions like that. It flat out bugs him. So please show proper respect in talking to him because he is a Nike Executive and a VP.

So I'll assume you guys have heard the frequent and nonstop complaints from disgruntled collectors and fans about retros..."Nike Air," weak colorways, no mesh on the Air Max retros, smaller air bubbles etc etc...Why wont Nike give one of its most loyal consumer groups what they want? Is it because the merchandise will end up purchased regardless of whos happy or not?

I cant seem to figure out how reversing certain changes to make the shoes how they were before would hurt the company so it befuttles me as to why they would make the changes in the first place. Care to shed some light?

For the answer to your question, please read SinnerP's second to the last reply. And then read my reply immediately after that.Thank you.

 

[rudemiester]

^I saw that and I understand that he's not involved with the retros. My question was directed towards you. I wanted to know if you could possibly shed anylight on the situation. Just curious. Thanks.

 

[menoforegon]

Well, we're not demanding that you buy all of our products. If you don't like a certain style, design, or colorway you're not required to purchaseit. It may be to someone else's liking or personal taste. You have other choices. If you were really a "loyal consumer" you would purchase theshoe based on its performance/design or "true, nostalgic value" not "resale or collector value". There will always be complaints due to thediversity of the consumers. We can't cater to everyone's own personal taste in this world, so the bottom line is ........you make the decision.

 

[rudemiester]

If you were really a "loyal consumer" you would purchase the shoe based on its performance/design and "true value" not "resale value". We can't cater to everyone's own personal taste in this world, so the bottom line is ........you make the decision.
I never purchased anything based on resale value...And I understand that Nike cant cater to everyones needs. You said loyal consumers purchasebased on performance/design and that was the nail I was hoping you'd hit. What sparked my curiosity as it pertains to this subject was the changing ofcertain design/performance aspects that didnt help make certain shoes better in many peoples aspects. Like if Nike releases an original one way say in 1990 andits an off the meter success why taint said product upon rerelease a decade plus later when the originals are unwearable? Understandably, times change andtechnologies are produced that enhance the performance of a shoe....but strictly from a design standpoint why fix what isn't broken?

 

[menoforegon]

The first part of your last sentence pretty much sums it up.

I think a lot of people on this message board fail to appreciate the fact that we have "retroed" certain past models that would otherwise be hardto obtain normally. The "retro" should be purchased due to its "nostalgic significance" regardless if it has a JUMPMAN on the back insteadof "Nike Air", or leather instead of mesh, etc. etc.. If it doesn't have a certain design cue that the original had then simply don't buy it.For those that covet the shoe and simply must have it, they will get the opportunity. In addition, it gives the owners of the original models a slightdistinction and sense of "nostalgic pride".

Another unfortunate factor in this equation is the "variant" industry and the selling of unlicensed, non-authentic Nikes. Another factor is thereselling business.

 

[d e beatup]

Originally Posted by MenofOregon


The first part of your last sentence pretty much sums it up.

I think a lot of people on this message board fail to appreciate the fact that we have "retroed" certain past models that would otherwise be hard to obtain normally. The "retro" should be purchased due to its "nostalgic significance" regardless if it has a JUMPMAN on the back instead of "Nike Air", or leather instead of mesh, etc. etc.. If it doesn't have a certain design cue that the original had then simply don't buy it. For those that covet the shoe and simply must have it, they will get the opportunity. In addition, it gives the owners of the original models a slight distinction and sense of "nostalgic pride".

Another unfortunate factor in this equation is the "variant" industry and the selling of unlicensed, non-authentic Nikes. Another factor is the reselling business.

I'm not fully understanding your logic. How does Nike equate loyalty? Do they equate it with adoration of excellenceand innovation or is it simply defined by sheep who are blinded by the Swoosh? Of course everyone's needs can't be catered, but many simple requestsaren't that hard to honor and I don't understand why.

And I really can't come to grips with your description of a "loyal customer". To me, it sounds as ifyou're insinuating that it should be a blessing for a customer to be able to purchase your products. Loyalty is a two-way street. There are certain Mom& Pop joints that I make an effort to put money into their registers because they show me loyalty by giving me excellent customer service, giving out adiscount or hookup every once in a while, making me feel like my time and money is valued. I'd be a fool to keep going to their store if they gave me somesnobby attitude & didn't at least attempt to make me feel welcome.

I was a fan of Mike as a player and that carried over into his sneaker line also. I was a very loyal customer, saving mostof my paychecks and hard earned cash during high school to purchase products with a Jumpman on it. But over the past four years, the loyalty hasn't beenreciprocated so I scaled back tremendously.

I saved my cash to purchase the Nubuck XII pack, but their website crashed & I was forced to pay ridiculous resellerprices, only to see the shoes end up in Athlete's Foot months later. I had money reserved that could've went to essentials in order to get the LaserIV's online, but I jumped through several hoops all night long to come up empty handed in the midst of another blown online release. If I do happen tolike a particular LS model, I don't even have the option to, since they're capped at sz. 13 now, when I am a 14.

So my "loyalty" to Jordan Brand is but a faded memory now. I have no problem paying for a Supreme AF1 (at least Iknow I'm getting quality leathers and detail) but I'll rarely purchase a retro Jordan because I like to wear shoes more than twice before the toeboxneeds a Botox hit.

And the whole "collectors" argument in regards to Nike Air is a load of b.s. I know it, you know it, Gentryknows it, & everyone else does also. If a movie theater re-releases a film, they're not going to bastardize elements to "keep the originalspecial" for the collectors. If you were a true collector, you wouldn't care about what everyone else has because you'd be content with knowingthat you have the original in your possesion; just like an art collector wouldn't waste time worrying about people who purchase replica paintings. Theonly valid reason I can come up with is that it allows the company another opportunity to re-re-re retro certain models for one more go around. Retros oforiginal colorways should be exactly as they were when the model initially dropped. Do whatever you please with retro+ models, fusions, crossovers, all thatstuff.

 

[menoforegon]

If you are talking specifically about Jordan Brand, your comments would best be suited for the Footwear PLM. But the bottom line is, you chose what greatlengths you had to go through to obtain the product. That was solely your decision. Unfortunately, it didn't turn out the way you would've liked.It's not a "blessing" to purchase our products, it's a choice; one that only you can make for yourself. That goes with anything sold intoday's market. You have other options.

 

[wallyhopp]

this is probably furthest from the truth, but many retros look like the colors were chosen based off of 50x50 google picture. I know some of that stuffcan't be truly planned but its only gotten worse. Technology aside, we're talking colors. I don't know where or who that lies on but the QC islacking.

examples: http://www.sneakerfiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/nike-dt-max-96-retro-released-2.jpg

instantly you notice the midsole splatter missing, gold stitched swoosh gone, airbag is not gold. I can take the banana toe and smaller airbag and attributethat to newer technology but the rest can NEVER get a pass from me.

another simple example: air trainer 1 2000 retro: green color is just totally different from the orginial. is that a technology issue?

or this trainer max 91, which is basically just a whole new colorway from the OG:

 

[menoforegon]

I see your point WallyHopp. In most cases, it is pretty difficult to exactly replicate a color from over 10, 15, 20 years ago. Theinks, dyes, patterns, etc., take a slight variation over the years. It also depends on the factory itself (machinery and material upgrades) that produces theshoe. I'll admit, some of us are a little surprised ourselves when we receive the product from the factory, but we cannot return back hundreds of thousandsof dollars worth of merchandise because of slight differences.

Some cases we purposely "switch things up" due to certain restrictions such as "earth friendly" materials, non-toxic inks, hazardous waste,etc..

I see the differences in color that you're referring to:

 

[thagreatj]

I just wish yall would go back to the OG air bubble size.

AM 93 look horrible wit the baby bubbles when the og bubbles were flat out ignorant in their size. Take for instance the air penny 2's, the airbubble (forme) makes that shoe and when it gets retroed, its gonna look dismal in comparison.

my only gripe, and i have never popped an airbubble on a shoe (unless it had that little window on the bottom, like the penny 3's...i might be mistaken onthe #)

 

[hovkid]

Originally Posted by MenofOregon


If you are talking specifically about Jordan Brand, your comments would best be suited for the Footwear PLM. But the bottom line is, you chose what great lengths you had to go through to obtain the product. That was solely your decision. Unfortunately, it didn't turn out the way you would've liked. It's not a "blessing" to purchase our products, it's a choice; one that only you can make for yourself. That goes with anything sold in today's market. You have other options.

No offense but I have to say you are full of %!@# on that one. When product is limited you put us in a position where we are lucky to purchase yourproducts. I don't know who you are or where you work, but if you work at Nike and had any balls you'd walk into Gentry's office and beat him overthe head with a bat.

 

[menoforegon]

Originally Posted by HOVKid

Originally Posted by MenofOregon


If you are talking specifically about Jordan Brand, your comments would best be suited for the Footwear PLM. But the bottom line is, you chose what great lengths you had to go through to obtain the product. That was solely your decision. Unfortunately, it didn't turn out the way you would've liked. It's not a "blessing" to purchase our products, it's a choice; one that only you can make for yourself. That goes with anything sold in today's market. You have other options.

No offense but I have to say you are full of %!@# on that one. When product is limited you put us in a position where we are lucky to purchase your products. I don't know who you are or where you work, but if you work at Nike and had any balls you'd walk into Gentry's office and beat him over the head with a bat.

No offense taken. But you did choose to stand in line on release day by your own power, or whatever measures you went through, taking a chance that youmay not be able to purchase the product. That means you put yourself in that position. You made a choice. We're not responsible for what the public doeseveryday, nor release days. We are however, responsible for putting out the products according to our production schedules/guidelines/procedures. Now we dounderstand that there have been a lot of unfavorable and unfortunate situations. We cannot control everything. Ultimately, the public is responsible forthemselves. Again, everyone has choices. Unfortunately, they don't always turn out in everyone's favor.

Gentry is not the problem. He's doing what he's suppose to be doing, what he was hired for, his job. If you want to fault someone for doingtheir job, then A LOT of people in this world would be in trouble. I'm not so sure that all of you know what Gentry really does enough foreveryone to warrant so much hatred towards him. Keep in mind people that Roman, Josiah, and Gemo make decisions as well in Jordan Brand. IT'S ACOLLABORATIVE EFFORT. HOVKid, can you tell me Gentry's exact job title and what his exact job duties areand what he does on a daily basis with Jordan Brand? If anyone can answer those questions correctly then yes, you have every right to be upset with him.

 

[blco02]

BTW, here's a cool article about Tinker's beach house in Oregon.

http://www.coastalliving.com/coastal/homes/architecture/article/0,14587,1583735,00.html

 

[wallyhopp]

heres more that we came up with.

http://niketalk.com/topic/22613?page=1

the uptempos on page 3 is just one example. To me, and thats just me, costs out weigh the benefits here. whos gonna notice the color is 3-4 shades OFF otherthan people here at NT? why try to find a bright green inner bubble color when you have yellow lieing around in the factory. itll save you money.

thats how i see the chlorophylls too. they probably had the kermit the frog material lying around somewhere and not the mean green color needed, but whosreally gonna notice. is it truely worth the work to correct this problem? bottom line no.

its a tough situation. i understand the business side, but still disaproove. yet by buying, i guess i am ultimately telling nike, NO YOU DO NOT CARE AFTERALL.its a vicious cycle.

the perfect colorway infusion with a perfect shoe design is just external bliss. it's what grew us to liking them so much when they came out. 10 yearslater when a retro is made, it's just not the same. I guess itll never be

heres just another example. i dont think theres one perfect retro

The gold/black splatter air bubble was integral in making that shoe what it was... Now its just a generic mess as seen on ebay and finishline with salestotally lacking.

GOLD does not equal YELLOW no matter how nike is selling it.

Close enough is the new nike standard

 

[skylarkster]

My biggest problem, and my biggest philosophy over the years on NT is that retro is ruining future designs. Retros will never go out of style but I severelyhope that it dies down. It seems that almost all of Nike's "new" product, that is to say non-retro, keeps resorting back to design cues of thepast when they need to move on and start forward-thinking again.

Amare's first STAT shoe (designed by Jason Petrie) wasn't bad, but it was basically just an update on a Barkley shoe. The entire Air Force 25 line wasa joke. The Jordan XX1 and XX2 sat on shelves while the Grape V caused mass rioting.

It's about design morale. When Tinker designed his Jordans he was thinking ahead and with purpose. Retros have de-motivated the design process becauseit's a business of money, so I get the feeling that the design of say, the Jordan XX1 was corrupted because JB is focused way more on how fast Aqua VIIIswill sell out if they release them.

 

[wallyhopp]

retros have been around since the beginning though. the air trainer 1's in the white/grey/black/green colorway were so popular they "retroed"atleast 2 more times after its initial release in a 6 year time span since its release. even when it was rereleasing, nike was droppping gems and new models.its all about a perfect balance. you cant retro everything and when you do, you cant throw out 25 LS colorways.

its a balance that nike perfected early on because they were dropping gems every single year and the retros didnt overshadow the actual new models.

nike just needs to create new better models that arent overshadowed by 15 year old designs

 

[d e beatup]

Originally Posted by MenofOregon

I see your point WallyHopp. In most cases, it is pretty difficult to exactly replicate a color from over 10, 15, 20 years ago. The inks, dyes, patterns, etc., take a slight variation over the years. It also depends on the factory itself (machinery and material upgrades) that produces the shoe. I'll admit, some of us are a little surprised ourselves when we receive the product from the factory, but we cannot return back hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of merchandise because of slight differences.

It's understandable that in instances it can be more difficult to replicate some older models. I don't see,however, how you can be surprised at the results of the product and can't return "hundreds of thousands of dolllars worth of merchandise" becauseof the differences. What is the purpose of a look-see sample, wear-test one or a production sample? Isn't it to verify that the sample is what you arepaying for?

I think it's more along the lines that there are people in high positions that could either care less or aren'tknowledgeable enough to tell the difference on many small details. Don't tell me that the pull tab wasn't red in order to "appease thecollectors" either. Now on technological fronts, I understand that there are limitations. I've read that issues with the "iciness" ofclear sole shoes can't go past a certain degree as of yet because of a correlation with traction. I believe the purpose of the smaller air bubble isbecause it's less likely to burst or leak than the larger ones. That's acceptable. But there's no excuse for passing off that yellow on the DTMax retro as "gold" like the original featured. Either do it right or don't do it all.
It looks like WallyHopp summed it up already, "Close enough is the new Nike standard."

 

[menoforegon]

You have to understand the business of production, production methods, and production standards to realize the situation. There's a lot of hidden criteriainvolved. I'm not going to "break down" the dimensions of the business on this message board or I'd be here all night. Unless you own a shoefactory, have visited a shoe factory, or have direct contact with a shoe factory, then you'll have a better understanding.It's not as simple as most ofyou think. Believe me, we all wish it was! It would make life easier for all of us.

Keep in mind d e beatup, samples are NOT the final product, so variations could occur.

I think we've deviated enough from the original topic. The discussion and comments were insightful for me, so thanks to all who posted. But the bottom lineis ...........you do have a choice.

 

[betolz]

The bottom line for me is, "Close enough is the new Nike standard."

That attitude surely wasn't the one that got them to the top.

Nike retro = swingman. Awful image for the brand.

 

[size twelve]

i just wish that it wouldn't be too much for nike to actually follow their own corporate maxims. number V especially, but I and VIII are sorely lackingthese days.


attitudes like the one exhibited in this post really make me not want to purchase any more nike this year.

i know in the grand scheme of things, i'm one little consumer in a huge world, but still, damn.


acting like it's a privilege for us to fork over our hard-earned money to the temple of the swoosh? makes me wanna just fuhgeddaboutit. seriously.

 

[kickinheadz1010]

Damn this turned ugly pretty quick...

From what I've read, posters DO have a choice and it is a choice that they, more often than not,
are reluctant to make. Bu then again this is hardly an appropriate sample size.

 

[b1lly hoyle]

The designer of the Air Jordan II, Bruce Kilgore , is still very much with us. In fact, he re-designed and released the Air Force 1 2007.

Tracy Teague designed the AF25.

Nike quality is getting continually worse. I DO have a choice in purchasing, but hearing the "shop elsewhere" attitude is nothing short ofdisheartening.

Sure there's production difficulties -- but that's an easy excuse. I know firsthand the awful decisions that are made, and that cheaper materials,leathers, and appearances are chosen purposely.

Once-loyal customers are turning their backs. There's a countless number of shoes I would've bought this yearthat I passed on due to quality.

The DT Max being a great example. That shoe IS a swingman version to the original. The appearance isn't remotely close.

The other thing Nike forgets about, and something that Tinker so often stresses himself, is that true innovation is through performance. I don't like ashoe because somebody put a clear plastic upper onto it, made the heel carolina blue, limited its production numbers and charged $150 for it....I like a shoebecause it performs.

Nike Retro shoes don't perform. They're gutted of their technology, ridden of key functional elements and cheapened in materials, just making for worsedurability over time. I don't want to hear that I have other choices...'cause all that says to me is that thought and effort isn't being put intothe products that we love so dearly.