What's wrong with Gay Marriage?

[pleasurephd]

Originally Posted by tkthafm


We agree it's not physical, but then how about claiming it to be a mental illness/disorder/condition. I know what I'm saying isn't "PC" but looking at it from the other side, why not ? I know it was once more widely viewed that way but activism & changes in norms ended it. 

Here's this from the APA: http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

Is homosexuality a mental illness or emotional problem?

No. Psychologists, psychiatrists, and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, a mental disorder, or an emotional problem. More than 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself, is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information.

In the past, the studies of gay, lesbian, and bisexual people involved only those in therapy, thus biasing the resulting conclusions. When researchers examined data about such people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was quickly found to be untrue.

In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of the new, better-designed research and removed homosexuality from the official manual that lists mental and emotional disorders. Two years later, the American Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting this removal.

For more than 25 years, both associations have urged all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that some people still associate with homosexual orientation.

Maybe you can shed more light on this, but what scientific studies can possibly rule out if something is a mental disorder or not. Isn't it a gray area that depends on what the scientist views "normal" behavior to be in the first place ? For example, it says "data was examined" ... what ? 

I really can't I'm not a psychologist I'm a biologist. So to be honest as a biologist I don't categorize psychology as a science on the same classification as biology, chemistry, and physics. Not that I by any means consider it a pseudoscience, but in psychology there is a lot more room for interpretation, not true facts. So my biological definitions and rules do not apply. Whether a psychologist classifies homosexuality as a disease is there individual definition. 

 

[pleasurephd]

Originally Posted by tkthafm


We agree it's not physical, but then how about claiming it to be a mental illness/disorder/condition. I know what I'm saying isn't "PC" but looking at it from the other side, why not ? I know it was once more widely viewed that way but activism & changes in norms ended it. 

Here's this from the APA: http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

Is homosexuality a mental illness or emotional problem?

No. Psychologists, psychiatrists, and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, a mental disorder, or an emotional problem. More than 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself, is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information.

In the past, the studies of gay, lesbian, and bisexual people involved only those in therapy, thus biasing the resulting conclusions. When researchers examined data about such people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was quickly found to be untrue.

In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of the new, better-designed research and removed homosexuality from the official manual that lists mental and emotional disorders. Two years later, the American Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting this removal.

For more than 25 years, both associations have urged all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that some people still associate with homosexual orientation.

Maybe you can shed more light on this, but what scientific studies can possibly rule out if something is a mental disorder or not. Isn't it a gray area that depends on what the scientist views "normal" behavior to be in the first place ? For example, it says "data was examined" ... what ? 

I really can't I'm not a psychologist I'm a biologist. So to be honest as a biologist I don't categorize psychology as a science on the same classification as biology, chemistry, and physics. Not that I by any means consider it a pseudoscience, but in psychology there is a lot more room for interpretation, not true facts. So my biological definitions and rules do not apply. Whether a psychologist classifies homosexuality as a disease is there individual definition. 

 

[cwrite78]

Originally Posted by TimCity2000

tkthafm wrote:

---

Why would it be wrong or incorrect to classify homosexuality as a disease or disorder ?   

so what's the cure?  lemme know, and i'll make an appointment....

private meetings with your in the closet pastor.

but try to schedule it after they rape the alter boys so they can sit on their high horse and tell you how homosexuality is bad, even though 5 seconds ago they "practiced" it, along with rape.

sarcasm, obviously.

 

[cwrite78]

Originally Posted by TimCity2000

tkthafm wrote:

---

Why would it be wrong or incorrect to classify homosexuality as a disease or disorder ?   

so what's the cure?  lemme know, and i'll make an appointment....

private meetings with your in the closet pastor.

but try to schedule it after they rape the alter boys so they can sit on their high horse and tell you how homosexuality is bad, even though 5 seconds ago they "practiced" it, along with rape.

sarcasm, obviously.

 

[|A-Man|]

Originally Posted by do work son

Originally Posted by cartune

Nothing.
Nothing is wrong with Pedophilia, Polygamy, Incest, Bestiality, etc either.

Let em all get married. Im tolerant of all sexual preferences. 

What you disagree? Yous intolerant 

if you are comparing gay marriage to pedophilia and bestiality then there won't be any point even attempting to reason with you.

The ignorance, it is astounding.

Can't help but pity those who use the slippery slope argument.

 

[|A-Man|]

Originally Posted by do work son

Originally Posted by cartune

Nothing.
Nothing is wrong with Pedophilia, Polygamy, Incest, Bestiality, etc either.

Let em all get married. Im tolerant of all sexual preferences. 

What you disagree? Yous intolerant 

if you are comparing gay marriage to pedophilia and bestiality then there won't be any point even attempting to reason with you.

The ignorance, it is astounding.

Can't help but pity those who use the slippery slope argument.

 

[tkthafm]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by tkthafm


We agree it's not physical, but then how about claiming it to be a mental illness/disorder/condition. I know what I'm saying isn't "PC" but looking at it from the other side, why not ? I know it was once more widely viewed that way but activism & changes in norms ended it. 

Here's this from the APA: http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

Is homosexuality a mental illness or emotional problem?

No. Psychologists, psychiatrists, and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, a mental disorder, or an emotional problem. More than 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself, is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information.

In the past, the studies of gay, lesbian, and bisexual people involved only those in therapy, thus biasing the resulting conclusions. When researchers examined data about such people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was quickly found to be untrue.

In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of the new, better-designed research and removed homosexuality from the official manual that lists mental and emotional disorders. Two years later, the American Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting this removal.

For more than 25 years, both associations have urged all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that some people still associate with homosexual orientation.

Maybe you can shed more light on this, but what scientific studies can possibly rule out if something is a mental disorder or not. Isn't it a gray area that depends on what the scientist views "normal" behavior to be in the first place ? For example, it says "data was examined" ... what ? 

A mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological or behavioral pattern generally associated with subjective distress or disability that occurs in an individual, and which is not a part of normal development or culture. Such a disorder may consist of a combination of affective, behavioural, cognitive and perceptual components. The recognition and understanding of mental health conditions has changed over time and across cultures, and there are still variations in the definition, assessment, and classification of mental disorders, although standard guideline criteria are widely accepted. A few mental disorders are diagnosed based on the harm to others, regardless of the subject's perception of distress. Over a third of people in most countries report meeting criteria for the major categories at some point in their lives.



The distress and disability homosexuals feel about their sexual orientation is not inherent, it has more to do with how society treats them. Most homosexual people are fine the way they are, the problem isn't with homosexual people the problem is with homophobes making their lives a living hell


-In the dark ages of science and medicine they made attempts to "cure" homosexuality as a mental illness using various cognitive therapies and failed miserably. It is as difficult to change a person's sexual orientation as it is to change their personality traits and DNA.


For example, if a kid is a minority at a school and gets bullied and picked on everyday. Would it be fair to focus on changing everything about him and labeling him abnormal just to cater to the majority who have a problem with his race. Let that marinade for a second. Until homosexuals start going to the mental clinics in droves to seek help with changing their homosexuality, it is not a psychological illness


Well, it does say only generally associated with distress, but I can see your point.
For the record I don't think being gay is something that can be changed or 'cured'.

 

[tkthafm]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by tkthafm


We agree it's not physical, but then how about claiming it to be a mental illness/disorder/condition. I know what I'm saying isn't "PC" but looking at it from the other side, why not ? I know it was once more widely viewed that way but activism & changes in norms ended it. 

Here's this from the APA: http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

Is homosexuality a mental illness or emotional problem?

No. Psychologists, psychiatrists, and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, a mental disorder, or an emotional problem. More than 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself, is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information.

In the past, the studies of gay, lesbian, and bisexual people involved only those in therapy, thus biasing the resulting conclusions. When researchers examined data about such people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was quickly found to be untrue.

In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of the new, better-designed research and removed homosexuality from the official manual that lists mental and emotional disorders. Two years later, the American Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting this removal.

For more than 25 years, both associations have urged all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that some people still associate with homosexual orientation.

Maybe you can shed more light on this, but what scientific studies can possibly rule out if something is a mental disorder or not. Isn't it a gray area that depends on what the scientist views "normal" behavior to be in the first place ? For example, it says "data was examined" ... what ? 

A mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological or behavioral pattern generally associated with subjective distress or disability that occurs in an individual, and which is not a part of normal development or culture. Such a disorder may consist of a combination of affective, behavioural, cognitive and perceptual components. The recognition and understanding of mental health conditions has changed over time and across cultures, and there are still variations in the definition, assessment, and classification of mental disorders, although standard guideline criteria are widely accepted. A few mental disorders are diagnosed based on the harm to others, regardless of the subject's perception of distress. Over a third of people in most countries report meeting criteria for the major categories at some point in their lives.



The distress and disability homosexuals feel about their sexual orientation is not inherent, it has more to do with how society treats them. Most homosexual people are fine the way they are, the problem isn't with homosexual people the problem is with homophobes making their lives a living hell


-In the dark ages of science and medicine they made attempts to "cure" homosexuality as a mental illness using various cognitive therapies and failed miserably. It is as difficult to change a person's sexual orientation as it is to change their personality traits and DNA.


For example, if a kid is a minority at a school and gets bullied and picked on everyday. Would it be fair to focus on changing everything about him and labeling him abnormal just to cater to the majority who have a problem with his race. Let that marinade for a second. Until homosexuals start going to the mental clinics in droves to seek help with changing their homosexuality, it is not a psychological illness


Well, it does say only generally associated with distress, but I can see your point.
For the record I don't think being gay is something that can be changed or 'cured'.

 

[buscape]

How is this thread 18 pages long? The question was answered in the first reply. Always trying to lowkey start an argument.

 

[buscape]

How is this thread 18 pages long? The question was answered in the first reply. Always trying to lowkey start an argument.

 

[daytona 5000]

As long as I don't hear them ramming each other through my wall at night, I couldn't care less.

 

[daytona 5000]

As long as I don't hear them ramming each other through my wall at night, I couldn't care less.

 

[an dee 51o]

Originally Posted by Cobra Kai

I would just like to offer the question of...

Who in this world has raised more gay children? Heterosexual or Homosexual parents?

Why should people be punished for loving who they choose to love?

The last time I had sex, me and the woman used a condom. (and I'm raised catholic. Huge taboo).

Me and her were in as much sin as two gay people having intercourse or wanting to be married.

With the amount of heterosexual divorces in this country alone, how can you judge someone wanting to actually get married for love?

This.

I mean, we're not asking you guys to go find a gay best friend (mine is but that's beside the point). Just let them live. People swear that if gay marriage is legalized, some deluge of gays will start popping up everywhere. All of you guys interact with gay people on a daily basis, you just have no idea. Everyone has had a gay friend or classmate or teacher or even family member without knowing. I guarantee that.

 

[an dee 51o]

Originally Posted by Cobra Kai

I would just like to offer the question of...

Who in this world has raised more gay children? Heterosexual or Homosexual parents?

Why should people be punished for loving who they choose to love?

The last time I had sex, me and the woman used a condom. (and I'm raised catholic. Huge taboo).

Me and her were in as much sin as two gay people having intercourse or wanting to be married.

With the amount of heterosexual divorces in this country alone, how can you judge someone wanting to actually get married for love?

This.

I mean, we're not asking you guys to go find a gay best friend (mine is but that's beside the point). Just let them live. People swear that if gay marriage is legalized, some deluge of gays will start popping up everywhere. All of you guys interact with gay people on a daily basis, you just have no idea. Everyone has had a gay friend or classmate or teacher or even family member without knowing. I guarantee that.

 

[deuce king]

Some interesting points have been made here.  I will respond to some of those things later on tonight.

 

[deuce king]

Some interesting points have been made here.  I will respond to some of those things later on tonight.

 

[-Red-]

To those that use the Biblical "argument" (or any other religious-based reasoning) against state-sanctioned gay marriage, do you also support the outlawing of divorce?  Or even better, do you think premarital sex should be illegal since participation also constitutes what you consider to be a "sinful lifestyle?"

I would like some actual responses to this...

 

[-Red-]

To those that use the Biblical "argument" (or any other religious-based reasoning) against state-sanctioned gay marriage, do you also support the outlawing of divorce?  Or even better, do you think premarital sex should be illegal since participation also constitutes what you consider to be a "sinful lifestyle?"

I would like some actual responses to this...

 

[do work son]

Originally Posted by red mpls

To those that use the Biblical "argument" (or any other religious-based reasoning) against state-sanctioned gay marriage, do you also support the outlawing of divorce?  Or even better, do you think premarital sex should be illegal since participation also constitutes what you consider to be a "sinful lifestyle?"

I would like some actual responses to this...

that's exactly my point. whether you agree with it or not, divorce is legal and premarital sex is legal so why isn't gay marriage legal? the claim that "all sins are equally bad" supports that if divorce and premarital sex are both legal, so should gay marriage. unless you're trying to make premarital sex and divorce illegal.

it's not so much whether you support gay marriage or not, it's about supporting the right for gays to marry

 

[do work son]

Originally Posted by red mpls

To those that use the Biblical "argument" (or any other religious-based reasoning) against state-sanctioned gay marriage, do you also support the outlawing of divorce?  Or even better, do you think premarital sex should be illegal since participation also constitutes what you consider to be a "sinful lifestyle?"

I would like some actual responses to this...

that's exactly my point. whether you agree with it or not, divorce is legal and premarital sex is legal so why isn't gay marriage legal? the claim that "all sins are equally bad" supports that if divorce and premarital sex are both legal, so should gay marriage. unless you're trying to make premarital sex and divorce illegal.

it's not so much whether you support gay marriage or not, it's about supporting the right for gays to marry

 

[-Red-]

Originally Posted by do work son

Originally Posted by red mpls

To those that use the Biblical "argument" (or any other religious-based reasoning) against state-sanctioned gay marriage, do you also support the outlawing of divorce?  Or even better, do you think premarital sex should be illegal since participation also constitutes what you consider to be a "sinful lifestyle?"

I would like some actual responses to this...

that's exactly my point. whether you agree with it or not, divorce is legal and premarital sex is legal so why isn't gay marriage legal? the claim that "all sins are equally bad" supports that if divorce and premarital sex are both legal, so should gay marriage. unless you're trying to make premarital sex and divorce illegal.

it's not so much whether you support gay marriage or not, it's about supporting the right for gays to marry

Yup.  The good old "pick-and-choose."

Maybe one of these anti-gay marriage posters will surprise us and support outlawing premarital sex, cohabitation, etc.

 

[-Red-]

Originally Posted by do work son

Originally Posted by red mpls

To those that use the Biblical "argument" (or any other religious-based reasoning) against state-sanctioned gay marriage, do you also support the outlawing of divorce?  Or even better, do you think premarital sex should be illegal since participation also constitutes what you consider to be a "sinful lifestyle?"

I would like some actual responses to this...

that's exactly my point. whether you agree with it or not, divorce is legal and premarital sex is legal so why isn't gay marriage legal? the claim that "all sins are equally bad" supports that if divorce and premarital sex are both legal, so should gay marriage. unless you're trying to make premarital sex and divorce illegal.

it's not so much whether you support gay marriage or not, it's about supporting the right for gays to marry

Yup.  The good old "pick-and-choose."

Maybe one of these anti-gay marriage posters will surprise us and support outlawing premarital sex, cohabitation, etc.

 

[frankmatthews]

I have a couple questions I would like to add to this.

-Would it be correct to say that the issue of choosing to be gay or being born gay is central to this argument?  In that, if one was born a certain way there is absolutely no valid reason to restrict them from activities (not even getting into rights) that everyone else is free to enjoy, whereas if one believed gay people choose their lifestyle then there is really no basis to go changing laws because some people decided they don't want to live by it or that it shouldn't apply to them?

-If I'm bisexual can I marry a man AND a woman?

-If one day science proves without a doubt that people are born gay and that a person could be tested to see if they were born gay, would it not be highly possible and even probable that there would be a large number of people who were gay but were not born that way?   Does this make any difference?   Would it still be considered natural for these gays?  Would one think same sex relations/marriage purely of choice is a healthy development for a society. 

-Say that gay marriage was legalized years ago and at this point it was completely accepted and there was no more discrimination or inequality, not even a funny look.  Now imagine 100 years into the future, what would that society look like in terms of gender roles, platonic, heterosexual, and homosexual relationships?  Societal interactions?  How would evolution factor in?


You know this whole issue came to a head for me while watching an episode of Seinfeld, it was the one where a woman wrote an article about Jerry and said that he and George were gay.  The whole show they kept having to emphatically explain to people that they were not gay, and they always followed up with "Not that theres anything wrong with that".

See, although they made sure to be politically correct and respectful, they wanted to make sure people knew they weren't gay, they didn't want to be considered that themselves, it bothered them. 

Point is, you can get people to oblige you and accept you, and say there is nothing wrong with gay marriage. But as long as people are firmly opposed to having that in their own lives there will always be a disconnect there.  And that is speaking lightly.  When it comes down to it, we are talking about an act that most straight males would fight to the death to prevent from happening to themselves, something that would be considered the most vile, disrespectful, violative, emasculating thing you could do to a man, a truly tragic and soul-shattering experience.  You can get a person to accept that other people do this in their own lives with consent, but to get people to officially condone and incorporate this behavior into the fabric of our society where our children are growing up way too quickly is gonna be a tough nut to crack as long as such extreme feeling and emotion is attached to the sexual aspect of it.  Same goes for the religious aspect but thats all nonsense to me anyway.

 

[frankmatthews]

I have a couple questions I would like to add to this.

-Would it be correct to say that the issue of choosing to be gay or being born gay is central to this argument?  In that, if one was born a certain way there is absolutely no valid reason to restrict them from activities (not even getting into rights) that everyone else is free to enjoy, whereas if one believed gay people choose their lifestyle then there is really no basis to go changing laws because some people decided they don't want to live by it or that it shouldn't apply to them?

-If I'm bisexual can I marry a man AND a woman?

-If one day science proves without a doubt that people are born gay and that a person could be tested to see if they were born gay, would it not be highly possible and even probable that there would be a large number of people who were gay but were not born that way?   Does this make any difference?   Would it still be considered natural for these gays?  Would one think same sex relations/marriage purely of choice is a healthy development for a society. 

-Say that gay marriage was legalized years ago and at this point it was completely accepted and there was no more discrimination or inequality, not even a funny look.  Now imagine 100 years into the future, what would that society look like in terms of gender roles, platonic, heterosexual, and homosexual relationships?  Societal interactions?  How would evolution factor in?


You know this whole issue came to a head for me while watching an episode of Seinfeld, it was the one where a woman wrote an article about Jerry and said that he and George were gay.  The whole show they kept having to emphatically explain to people that they were not gay, and they always followed up with "Not that theres anything wrong with that".

See, although they made sure to be politically correct and respectful, they wanted to make sure people knew they weren't gay, they didn't want to be considered that themselves, it bothered them. 

Point is, you can get people to oblige you and accept you, and say there is nothing wrong with gay marriage. But as long as people are firmly opposed to having that in their own lives there will always be a disconnect there.  And that is speaking lightly.  When it comes down to it, we are talking about an act that most straight males would fight to the death to prevent from happening to themselves, something that would be considered the most vile, disrespectful, violative, emasculating thing you could do to a man, a truly tragic and soul-shattering experience.  You can get a person to accept that other people do this in their own lives with consent, but to get people to officially condone and incorporate this behavior into the fabric of our society where our children are growing up way too quickly is gonna be a tough nut to crack as long as such extreme feeling and emotion is attached to the sexual aspect of it.  Same goes for the religious aspect but thats all nonsense to me anyway.

 

[dunks r nice]

I don't find anything wrong with it.