☆☆ 2012 NBA Finals ☆☆ The King has been crowned; Heat win 2012 NBA Finals! Bron Finals MVP.

Originally Posted by Kevin Cleveland

Are you sure you can't just give him any credit at all because you hate him?

44/37/82, 16.5, 5, 4 and 1.5, really good advanced percentages, 20.6 PER and 14.5 win shares over 122 games. Far from "garbage."

Interesting.  I wonder where all those come from.  Cuz when I went back and looked thru everything, I found a lot of this.  

(It's going to be long, I'm sorry, not my fault.) 
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I saw a top 20 most of his career post. 

Kid in 03, barely did anything for that title.
05, Horry won that series, the vid Doo posted ironically showed all of Horry's plays in that game to flip the series.  Like 2 of those plays, were a pass from Manu. 
But man, in 07 I'm lookin at Manu and 4 points on 1-8 shooting in round 1, 33% for the series.
8 and 6 points the first two games of the next series.  41% for that one.
Played well vs Utah in the WCF, I give him that
Finals?  36%, 3 points, 0-7 game in game 3, and they won anyways.  2.5 assists.  I mean, ok.  He has a good game here and there, but some really atrocious games as well, for a "top 20" type guy. 

So Duncan went OFF in 03, title.  Manu is a kid then.
Horry won them 05  -- Dispute it, please.  Do it. 
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Parker wins the series in 07, with Duncan.  Manu?  Again, some games here and there. 

From then, it's pathetic.  08 vs LA, 10, 7, 7, and 9 in the 4 games they lost.  He did get 30 in their only win.  But really?  4 games he was worthless.  In the conference finals, as a "top 20" guy?  35%  A top 20 guy goes 4 outta 5 sucking that bad?  I also noticed in the 05 finals, he was HORRIBLE on the road, and played good at home.  That doesn't signal me as a guy that is as good as being thrown at me.  Maybe that's just my way of viewing things, I dunno.  I get havin a bad game or so on the road, it happens, but all 3, then play great at home?  That sounds like a role guy to me. 

09 he didn't play, hurt as usual. 

10 they get swept in round 2, he throws out a 2-11, and a 2-8 beauty.  Shot 41% for the 10 games of the playoffs. 

Last year, he hit the one shot to save them a game, but they out in round 1, he really didn't do much. 

Top 20, of the entire NBA?  This resume? 

No real game winners, no real series changing/defining moments, buzzer beaters, he was a kid in 03, saved in 05, and didn't do much in 07, but he was on the squad.  His numbers are not as good as what even I expected.  I don't even think much of him, and I expected a bunch of real nice games, high %'s, PER, all that other stuff, and I saw none of that. 


 

And my OG point was, I’m not a Manu guy, I really don’t think he does anything so damn special.  He’s slithery, he’s a lefty tough herky jerky kind of angle shooter, gets shots off in weird areas, can’t anticipate him well, he’s got quick hands and a pest on D, but he’s not overly physical where he can’t be overmatched by stronger bigger guys. 

 

I get he’s not a scorer type with big numbers, but he isn’t exactly rebounding the hell out of the ball either, he gets 4-5 assists a game for his life, not like he’s John Stockton out there. 

 

 

 
You all think I am nuts about Horry being in, fine, but I have many many many moments/games/series/titles that he helped generate.  And he too did things that don’t show up stat wise, guarding Webber, Sheed, Duncan, Malone, Amare, and whoever else over the years.  Sorry to be a @#$% about this, but damn.  Hell, his tackle of Nash in 07 is bigger than anything Manu ever did.  Am I wrong there? 
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I don’t really care, hall or no hall, I already think the hall is a joke for their inclusions, no big deal, but the true history of the NBA couldn’t be shown without multiple Robert Horry plays/games/moments, the NBA could live on for 200 years and not show a single Manu highlight, and no one would even notice.  To me, that speaks to what a guy brought to the game. 

 

I brought up Bill Walton last night, that guy is in the HOF, but NBA wise, he was nothing.  He played like 4 years, might as well induct Brandon Roy too then.  @#$% Oden might as well get in, his career was derailed too.  lol  Now I know Walton got in for his high school and college work, I understand that, just lamenting that his NBA career was sorely lacking.  JA said “But he was a Finals MVP!!!!!â€
 
Originally Posted by Animal Thug1539

Originally Posted by NobleKane

Originally Posted by Zyzz


id rather be in the office making money then wasting time and money watching the cavs.

to each his own
your missing the point. its to watch blake and cp3... besides irving is looking pretty good right now...

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 exactly. But Zyzz is a well known Rubio-supporter, so by default he's against my garbage Cavs team.

Can't pass up watching #LobCity come to my city and play..

...plus Kyrie vs CP3...
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.

    
im messing with you about the cavs homie
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glad you support them through thick and thin.

Iriving is still trash to me though
 
Originally Posted by JapanAir21


But Horry wins because he has more rings with different teams and hits big shots, right?
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I am not comparing the two players, I don't know why you can't get that thru your skull. I have not one single time said Horry is > than any other player in the history of the NBA. 

Not once. 

His CAREER, is tho.  It is unique.  That can't be disputed.  But that doesn't mean I place him anywhere near any top 50-75-100-150-2500 type list. 

Get over comparing the two players.  Please. 

  
 
Horry won a series by hitting a couple 3's might be the most idiotic rational ever.
And we are talking about shooting % like a certain somebody didn't go 6-24 in the biggest game of his life...Only to have Ron Artest "win" the series.  I mean come one Ron won that ring for Kobe, he doesn't hit that buzzer beater in Pho. on kobe's airball or that 3 in game seven Kobe doesn't even get that ring.  Ron bailed Kobe out man.
 
Tony Parker's game is simple. He drives, he hits mid-range jumpers, he hits floaters. He has a great pick-and-roll with Timmy. That's about it.

Manu is so much more versatile than Tony on both ends. Manu is a terrific player in terms of creating his own shot, getting to the basket, and being able to shoot everywhere on the court. Defense? Manu is lightyears ahead of Tony, even discounting his annoying #+* flops.

What you're doing is nitpicking single games where he performed poorly, but excluding games where he BALLED, 21 against Dallas in the WCF as a rookie in 03. In 05, 32/9/3, 23/4/5, 24/4/6 against Denver. 28/2/4, and 39/4/6 against Seattle. 20/6/5, 26/4/4, 28/4/7 against Phoenix. 26/9/2, 27/3/7, 21/10/3, 23/5/4 against Detroit.

Let's talk about Detroit some more. Yes, he absolutely won Game 5 for them. He balled that game, no doubt.

The other three games they won?

Game 1- Manu 26/9/2 on 10/16 shooting. Horry 7/3/3 on 2/6 shooting.
Game 2- Manu 27/7/3 on 6/8 shooting. Horry 12/6/5 on 4/10 shooting.
Game 5- Manu 15/6/9 on 5/16 shooting. Horry 21/7/2 on 7/12 shooting.
Game 7- Manu 23/5/4 on 8/13 shooting. Horry 15/5/1 on 4/7 shooting.

Horry won them a GAME, I'm not going as far as to say that he was important in winning a series. Horry averaged 14/5/3 on 45% shooting. Manu? 23/7.5/4.5 on 54% shooting.

That's the games they won. Those are the games that will matter in the end. That's just one example, a prime example. I could keep going, and his numbers might not be that great, but come on man, just look at the numbers. Horry won them a game, no doubt. Manu helped carry the series.


I am not comparing the two players, I don't know why you can't get that thru your skull. I have not one single time said Horry is > than any other player in the history of the NBA. 

Not once. 

His CAREER, is tho.  It is unique.  That can't be disputed.  But that doesn't mean I place him anywhere near any top 50-75-100-150-2500 type list. 

Get over comparing the two players.  Please. 


Didn't see that till after you answered. I understand that, you're saying that he is getting in on his career, but man, if a guy all he has to tote is some very good games where he hit big shots, and has a lot of rings, what are we really basing his career on? Him hitting a couple big shots to keep them alive?

AMP brought up a great point. You had Ron Artest who helped Kobe win that in G7. Same situation, except Ron is the superior player. Far superior.
 
Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

Horry won a series by hitting a couple 3's might be the most idiotic rational ever.
And we are talking about shooting % like a certain somebody didn't go 6-24 in the biggest game of his life...Only to have Ron Artest "win" the series.  I mean come one Ron won that ring for Kobe, he doesn't hit that buzzer beater in Pho. on kobe's airball or that 3 in game seven Kobe doesn't even get that ring.  Ron bailed Kobe out man.
If that's your belief, by all means go with it.  Pretty sure Kobe was money that whole 6 games until he went 6-24.  But that's a whole other ball of wax. 

And as for Phoenix, really?  Really? 
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  Game 6, that was Ron?  Game 1, Ron?  Game 2, Ron?  Game 5, Ron absolutely got us that game, I believe that game was tied though, worst we could have had was OT off the Kobe miss, but yeah, Ron.  You stick with that. 

You count that singular play, as the same as what Horry did vs Detroit? 

Horry's shot vs Sac doesn't go in, LA goes down 3-1, that shot didn't change the course of that series/season/title?  Ok.

  
 
Originally Posted by JapanAir21


Didn't see that till after you answered. I understand that, you're saying that he is getting in on his career, but man, if a guy all he has to tote is some very good games where he hit big shots, and has a lot of rings, what are we really basing his career on? Him hitting a couple big shots to keep them alive?

AMP brought up a great point. You had Ron Artest who helped Kobe win that in G7. Same situation, except Ron is the superior player. Far superior.
I said I know that Manu had some games, solid games, sure, but top 20 player in the NBA since he's been in the league?  That was said in here. 

I get a "bad" game here and there.  Everyone has them.  How many did I list for that guy though? 
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  Look at his last FOUR playoff seasons.  Lot of nothing in there. 


Ron has 2 big moments in his playoff life.  The tip in, the 3.  Great moments for us, and for him.  And I replied to AMP about them.  The tip in was a tie game.  The 3 was just to up the lead to 6, we ALREADY led by 3, he just daggered them.  Horry changed losses, into wins.  Do you count those as the same thing? 


I find it funny how easy you guys makin this 7 title thing with 3 teams seem.  I mean, it's so easy, anyone can do it, right?  Just, well, nobody ever has. 
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Lemme ask ya, straight up, say we go another 25+ years.  We're all old and grey.  Most of you anyways, not me.  Anyhoo, at that point, the NBA is 90 years old, Horry still the only one with multiples on 3 teams, does that change your opinion any?  Do you need time to pass to get the significance of it, or just don't matter, 200 years whatever, never never never? 

  
 
No. It doesn't.

Is the fact that he has multiple rings with multiple teams an unprecedented feat and an amazing anomaly? Yes.

Is it enough to get him in the Hall of Fame? No, I'm sorry, I don't agree.

He wasn't pivotal enough in those Championships to get in. That's all.

Did he make crucial plays? Yeah. But was he ever a cornerstone to helping a team win? Not that I consider.

It means his team had a hell of a lot of nailbiters, and the ball was in his hands numerous times. Good for him, but that's not Hall of Fame material to me.
 
You see now why I don't want to get into a back and forth
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it's @+#$++@ never ending because no one gives an inch or can ever admit they were/are wrong
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Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by JapanAir21


But Horry wins because he has more rings with different teams and hits big shots, right?
laugh.gif
I am not comparing the two players, I don't know why you can't get that thru your skull. I have not one single time said Horry is > than any other player in the history of the NBA. 

Not once. 

His CAREER, is tho.  It is unique.  That can't be disputed.  But that doesn't mean I place him anywhere near any top 50-75-100-150-2500 type list. 

Get over comparing the two players.  Please. 

  

So what?
No one agrees with you. No one. 
 
I hate the shot clock violation. I hate when you get 24 seconds of great defense, and just because the player airballs a shot that the defensive team gets penalized for playing great defense. They take away the fast break opportunity, absolutely hate it.
 
Originally Posted by HankMoody

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by JapanAir21


But Horry wins because he has more rings with different teams and hits big shots, right?
laugh.gif
I am not comparing the two players, I don't know why you can't get that thru your skull. I have not one single time said Horry is > than any other player in the history of the NBA. 

Not once. 

His CAREER, is tho.  It is unique.  That can't be disputed.  But that doesn't mean I place him anywhere near any top 50-75-100-150-2500 type list. 

Get over comparing the two players.  Please.   
So what?
No one agrees with you. No one. 
Technically, one person does, but....
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I'm not saying Dallas is a better team than Oklahoma City, but Dallas is very comfortable with this match-up. They showed that last year and with both games earlier in the year. If not for a very good shot from Durant, the season series would be 2-0. The guys are extremely confident against the group. They feel like they can play good enough defense and have enough depth to deal with Durant and Westbrook, and sometimes Harden.

It's when Ibaka, Collison, and guys like that get things done for them, that Dallas has issues with them.
 
Originally Posted by CP1708

^
Do you get the impression that Gordon wants to stay in N.O.?  
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Good to flip Kaman, but I'll wait til I see what they get from Hou. 
did i give you the impression that i did?

i asked a simple question.. and IF he is a restricted free agent, then NO can just match, right?.. which was my point.. simple enough, right?
 
I want to hate the Mavs, but I love the offseason acquisitions they made this offseason, plus Roddy has been healthy more than 2 games in a row though I still think they tend to massively overrate him.

Harden in the starting lineup doesn't work as well as you'd assume, so Brooks put Cook in the starting 2.

And the aforementioned Harden, 2nd highest PER SG in the West and gets 6ftas per while only taking 9 shots, very efficient.
 
Originally Posted by itsaboutthattime

Originally Posted by CP1708

^
Do you get the impression that Gordon wants to stay in N.O.?  
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Good to flip Kaman, but I'll wait til I see what they get from Hou. 
did i give you the impression that i did?

i asked a simple question.. and IF he is a restricted free agent, then NO can just match, right?.. which was my point.. simple enough, right?
Still not clear if a RFA is strictly a money situation or if they have the right to reclaim you no matter what. Cuz what if Gordon chooses to take a cheaper contract  from another team or even if NO matched a max offer he still wanted to play for that other team?

As for the other argument yall should just make that NBA hof thread already. Tired of seeing these forced arguments for why Horry gets in and Manu doesn't.
 
Beaubois has had games where he seems like he can be Ray Allen, and other games where he looks like he can like Wade. But, he's only had maybe two or three games like that. We see the potential. The kid is amazing on defense, and he's very versatile on offense, it just hasn't clicked to put it all together with consistency yet.

Vince has been amazing this year. I am stunned he's played so well. Delonte too. If Lamar can ever come around, we're in great shape.

Westbrook.
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Athleticism is SILLY.
 
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