2015 NY Knicks offseason thread, Los Almighty appreciation thread

[dmvisrnb]

^Russell or Towns, I agree. I do not want to see Okafor here.

I really wish there was a way to get Boogie. He is the best C in the league and clearly unhappy in that hell hole out in Sacramento. It's probably impossible tho unfortunately...

 

[hsalem]

I can't understand the Okafor slander in here.

Dude has his weaknesses, and his performance last night had everything to do with the high pace of the game and not being fed the ball. He was 7/9 from the field. 

But I do agree that KAT needs to be taken at Number 1. He is just too skilled on both sides of the ball.

I SWEAR TO GOD IF THE KNICKS TRADE THIS ******* PICK........

 

[8pm at msg]

I'll take any of the three. I don't think you can go wrong with either of them.

 

[johnnyredstorm]

Okafor would come in and average at least 15 points per game. Dude has the footwork, hands, strength, and skills offensively to thrive in the NBA. free throw shooting, well, this is a common issue with big men. he passes exceptionally well out of double teams. he reads defenses well and knows quickly when he needs to get rid of it. he's good at reestablishing position.

i rather have towns just because i think he has the higher ceiling, but i'll take okafor over russell everyday of the week.

 

[onewearz]

i agree , i noticed Okafor passes out the double good too last night , even seen him put english on a pass

got this feeling though that if we got a 1-3 pick, Phil is going Kentucky, done deal.

 

[johnnyredstorm]

i honestly dont want russell unless we're stuck with him at 3. you gotta get the big man if you're picking 1 or 2.

 

[you go boy]

if we get the 3rd pick which is likely who we pick mudiay or russell?

 

[ballinsam23]

I've never been high on KAT, but i'll admit i only watched him during the beginning of the season. Will keep a very close eye on him once the tourney starts though.

I'll trade our top 3 for Noah + Butler though.

if we get the 3rd pick which is likely who we pick mudiay or russell?

100% Russell

 

[the gr8est]

Okafor would come in and average at least 15 points per game. Dude has the footwork, hands, strength, and skills offensively to thrive in the NBA. free throw shooting, well, this is a common issue with big men. he passes exceptionally well out of double teams. he reads defenses well and knows quickly when he needs to get rid of it. he's good at reestablishing position.

i rather have towns just because i think he has the higher ceiling, but i'll take okafor over russell everyday of the week.

I never denied the fact that Okafor could probably average at least 15 ppg here. In fact I said he could probably average close to 15 and 10 right off the bat. However, looking past his scoring I just do not think Okafor does enough things that would help the Knicks win if we chose to build around him. Name me any team that has had success WINNING around a big man who doesnt play good defense? I mean look at what Cleveland is going through with KLove right now. He always put up monster #s with Minnesota and is as gifted as a scorer and rebounder as they come but he has always been a liability on defense and he never could even reach the playoffs in Minnesota. Now he is surrounded by a championship contending roster led by the best player in the NBA and his defense continues to be a major liability. In all seriousness Cleveland probably shouldnt have given up Wiggins to get him.

Looking around the NBA, ALL of the best big men in the league are at least very solid defenders. Most of the best ones are elite. I mean look around at the league right now at the dominant centers. Marc Gasol, Anthony Davis, Joakim Noah, Dwight Howard, Cousins, etc. All of those guys play defense. I dont trust handing the keys to the franchise to another big man who doesnt play defense. I dont know how all of yall wouldnt at least be skeptical of doing so considering our past with big men who dont play defense here in NY and considering that we are already led by a superstar player who isnt exactly known for his defense.

I think the 2 biggest needs to put around Melo are a true quarterback point guard who can run the offense and make scoring come a lot easier for Melo (as George Karl suggested recently should be priority #1 for the Knicks) and a center who can hopefully help us out with his scoring but more importantly anchor the team defensively. That is why I want the Knicks drafting Towns or Russell above anybody else.

Its not that im bashing Okafor, I recognize what he does and what he could bring to the table here in NY. But if I am looking to build a championship contender around a player in this draft, I see that with Russell and I see that with Towns. I bet Okafor could probably average 20+ in a couple of seasons but I think there will always be too many issues with the rest of his game to lead a championship caliber team unless you can pair him with a really good defensive 4, kind of like what Memphis has done by pairing Marc Gasol to mask Z-Bo's defensive deficencies (except in reverse because Okafor is the center in this scenario).

Just in general less and less big men are as successful in today's NBA than guards are, which makes me absolutely baffled why everyone says "you need to take one of the 2 centers over Russell because Russell is a guard." I think in general the concept of you needing to draft a center ahead of a point guard is an outdated notion. I can understand the idea of a center or a point guard being valued more highly in the draft than wing players are, but if you look around the NBA, team success is easily more highly correlated with the ability of a team's starting PG than any other position. By far.

And I get that the same rules dont necessarily apply for Phil Jackson and his famed triangle offense which typically devalue the role of a point guard. And that same reasoning is why I have Emmanuel Mudiay ranked 4th or 5th on the Knicks draft board despite the fact that I think he could be the best or 2nd best prospect in terms of raw potential. Mudiay is an athletic freak ball dominating distributing point guard that currently has an atrocious jump shot. Because of that, Mudiay might be an excellent player to build around for most of the NBA teams that hand the ball to a PG and let them create offense through pick and rolls and drive and kicks (think D'Antoni-ball), but he is far from the ideal triangle point guard. If D'Antoni is coaching this team right now in all honesty I probably have Mudiay as the #1 prospect in terms of who I would want but he does not fit what we are trying to build in NY and as long as Phil Jackson is here we should try and build our team in the way that has worked for him.

However, Phil is going to have to make adjustments to his system as well. It is no longer 1996. Sure Phil might value certain characteristics for a point guard than Mike D'Antoni, but he is still going to have to get a lot more out of his PG play than he did with the Bulls and the Lakers. Enter D'Angelo Russell. Russell is a 6'5 point guard (amazing size) who does just about everything you can ask for a triangle point guard. In addition to his favorable size (something that Phil has always desired in his point guards), he has incredible passing vision, is an unbelievable shooter from the outside (shooting a remarkable 43% from down town despite being basically the only focus from opposing defenses), and is a born/natural leader.

He has been ridiculously efficient across the board this season. He has had monster scoring nights all while maintaining his very efficient shooting %s. He is averaging more than 19 PPG on the season (more than any other freshman in the country),  and he also averages more than 5 assists and rebounds per game displaying his ability to do it all.

I truly 100% believe that all of New York City and especially Derek Fisher would fall in love with this kid if he became a Knick. Just watch him play. He has a great way about him which almost forces you to root for him while watching him play. He has a coolness about him on the court while also playing with a toughness and carrying a chip on his shoulder that is great to watch. His smooth assassin style of play and his ability to score from basically anywhere on the floor reminds me a lot of Steph Curry or Brandon Roy. Many scouts have said that they see a lot of aspects of both Steph Curry and James Harden is Russell's game, the two leading candidates for MVP right now, so I dont understand why we must listen to outdated notions that we need to target a center ahead of him.

In addition to his skill-set, his overall demeanor reminds me a lot of Derek Fisher when he played in the sense that his teammates have a tendency to gravitate around him and respect his leadership despite Russell being only a freshman. D'Angelo Russell would come to the Knicks and immediately demand respect on the floor and in the locker room. He would become the immediate future of this franchise and the best/most complete PG the Knicks have had since Clyde.

He would be the QB that this team needs possibly more than anything else moving forward and is the type of QB/PG that George Karl was talking about when he said that it is necessary to have when trying to build a winning team around Carmelo Anthony. Melo is always better while playing with a PG who commands respect and makes his teammates better (like Andre Miller, Chauncey Billups, and Jason Kidd), and I think that Melo and D-Lo would make a great team until Melo is ready to pass on the torch.

I dont understand the notion that a center has to be drafted ahead of Russell. I would get it if both of these centers were playing better this season or were loaded with more potential but that is not the case. Across the board, Russell has arguably been the most impressive freshman player in the country this college basketball season. I could get it if his size is an issue but here we have a true point guard who is 6'5.

If Russell has a chance to become the Knicks franchise point guard and a player who can legitimately put himself in the same category as the likes of Curry, Harden, Westbrook, etc. then I think he is worth a gamble as much or more than both Towns and Okafor.

Curry, Harden, and Westbrook were all in a similar position to Russell in their respective drafts. All 3 were highly touted prospects that all went very high in the draft, but all of them were not viewed as the kind of cant miss prospect they ended up becoming. All of them faced questions about how well they would translate into the NBA. Curry and Harden faced questions about their athleticism and kind of being in between positions, Westbrook because he was too unproven beyond his athletic ability. All 3 were able to translate their ability into the NBA and become far better than anyone would have thought when they were drafted.

D'Angelo Russell is having a better freshman season than any of those 3 players and I do not see why Russell isnt capable of finding similar success in the NBA. He has the kind of skill set that would allow him to thrive in today's NBA, the kind of skillset that could see him become the perfect modern triangle point guard. The X-Factor to the triangle offense finding a place in today's PG-driven NBA.

Here is a good read from Grantland about Russell I stumbled upon recently: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/whos-that-guy-ohio-states-dangelo-russell/

 

[flyeed]

^my man just wrote down too much to read, and then at the end puts a link for more stuff to read

 

[the gr8est]

 
^my man just wrote down too much to read, and then at the end puts a link for more stuff to read

I knew I was gonna get called out for that 

Also to add one more thing... If you didnt choose 00 Britney, I dont know if I could fully trust you 

 

[gregzzy23]

one day I'm gonna read an entire gr8 post, one day

 

[yeeupp]

You guys think this years number 1 pick can get KD? OKC would never

 

[herbshuttles15]

You guys think this years number 1 pick can get KD? OKC would never

 

[johnnyredstorm]

i watched enough of Russell today to know I only want him if we're stuck at 3. Good player, talented, but he's nowhere near ready nor capable of taking a game over like the other two. he's gonna need 2-3 years to while the other guys can step in and play right away. i have very little interest in him.

 

[nick.]

i really want Towns. If we get Okafor or Russell fine but Towns i think has the highest ceiling.

7' 19 year old kid with decent range on his jumper, elite shot blocker, and a good on ball defender

 

[johnnyredstorm]

towns has the highest ceiling, okafor is the biggest guarantee and russell has bust potential.

 

[8pm at msg]

i watched enough of Russell today to know I only want him if we're stuck at 3. Good player, talented, but he's nowhere near ready nor capable of taking a game over like the other two. he's gonna need 2-3 years to while the other guys can step in and play right away. i have very little interest in him.

Don't know if I can agree with that statement boss. At one point he was the best freshman during the season, the numbers he was putting up were utterly ridiculous. He's come back down to earth a bit since then but he's definitely NBA ready based off of skill set. The wide open NBA game would be perfect for him.

 

[johnnyredstorm]

to me he doesn't look as nba ready as the other 2 guys. it's the second time i felt that way. first being a couple of months ago. he's talented, but i honestly am worried that he'll struggle at times at the next level. he's a good passer, good playmaker, but he worries me at times. okafor and towns dont worry me at all. if we're stuck at 3, i'm fine with the pick and welcome it, but if i have the luxury of the other 2, i'm taking them.

 

[xbiker47]

one day I'm gonna read an entire gr8 post, one day

 

[8pm at msg]

to me he doesn't look as nba ready as the other 2 guys. it's the second time i felt that way. first being a couple of months ago. he's talented, but i honestly am worried that he'll struggle at times at the next level. he's a good passer, good playmaker, but he worries me at times. okafor and towns dont worry me at all. if we're stuck at 3, i'm fine with the pick and welcome it, but if i have the luxury of the other 2, i'm taking them.

I dig. He does have his flaws....tall but slight build so who does he defend. Probably gotta be a full-time SG with some weight gain, I can't see him chasing around PGs. And good PFs/Cs tend to have a bigger impact overall in the long-run. It's an understandable preference.

 

[johnnyredstorm]

yeah I'm sure he'll become a good pro, but he just worries me too much to choose over the other 2. if we're stuck with him, i'm obviously not gonna be mad, hell i rather have him than mudiay, but i can't justify taking him over okafor or towns. guys at that size with as much skill and talent as those 2 can't be passed up.

 

[Master Zik]

I wouldn't trade our pick unless it was for a bonafide star. Most of the stuff I'm hearing in here are for scraps or bums.

If Sac wants to give up Cousins I might take it. Think Phil definitely would. Aint no way OKC giving up KD or Russ

Granted I don't watch college ball so I don't know how good these projected top picks will be in the league. I do expect us to get the #1 or #2 pick by the draft though.

 

[hsalem]

Gr8 stays righting the novels 

But yeah, watched Russell today. impressed by the way he found his shot and his quick release. Just wasn't falling. also, his team is horrible.

Where are you guys getting the insight that is giving you the confidence to definitively say Mudiay over Russell?

 

[the gr8est]

Just saying D'Angelo Russell is a Freshman. He is 6'5 and more of a pure Point Guard than Stephen Curry was when he entered the draft and Steph was a Junior. D-Lo is also averaging more points per game than any other freshman and is shooting a better % from deep than Curry ever did at Davidson.

I dont see how that could possibly be labeled as "bust potential." This dude is the complete package and he will be a threat in the league. Just look at the make up of the NBA today and tell me that D'Angelo Russell doesnt have the tools to be an elite PG in this league. You probably would have said the same thing about Curry leaving Davidson or Harden at ASU.

Putting NBA careers aside and just comparing the 3 strictly as draft prospects, I definitely think that Russell would be the highest ranked prospect of the 3 at the time they all entered the Draft. And he is also the youngest. I compare the 3 because they all have very similar games, and both Harden and Curry have become 2 of the league's best players despite not being touted as cant miss franchise player prospects and neither having out of this world physical ability (Russell is probably the most physically gifted of the 3 in that he probably has the best combination of size/speed).

So after missing out on viewing Curry and Harden as "cant miss" prospects (even though I LOVED Steph at Davidson and BADLY wanted him to fall to the Knicks at 8 when D'Antoni was our coach and I left that draft heartbroken when we ended up with Jordan Hill instead 

), I dont want the Knicks to make the same mistake and miss out on drafting a player like D'Angelo Russell for another big who doesnt defend like Okafor. 

Im not sure if any of them have "bust potential" per se, but I could definitely see Okafor's lack of defensive ability/versatility and just his overall appearance of lacking hunger at times (especially at the end of close games) driving Knicks fans crazy down the road and causing him to get constantly murdered by the NY media.

Not to mention as Ive said many times I would be very wary of trying to build our team around ANOTHER big with defensive issues. I get it the dude is a beast in the post, but the best big men all play defense in this league and the ones who dont rarely win.

Especially in NY. Just looking at our recent history, all of our most successful big men in recent memory have played defense. Compare the likes of Ewing, Oakley, Camby, Kurt Thomas, Tyson with the other big men we have seriously invested in recently years with defensive issues like Curry, Z-Bo, Amare, and Bargnani and it demonstrates that you gotta play defense to make it in NY. You gotta play defense to win over Knicks fans, and I just dont see it in Okafor. Its a very serious worry of mine. Definitely my largest concern amongst the 3 top players.