- Feb 5, 2014
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Yea when I say overrated I mean people are treating him like a top 20 player right now. Right now he's ok, but potential means you ain't done nothing yet. Who here would actually take Harper over Jose Fernandez?
2016 MLB thread. THE CUBS HAVE BROKEN THE CURSE! Chicago Cubs are your 2016 World Series champions
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by proshares,
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- May 2, 2012
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Dat Smoak game-ending DP 
. Great dive and snag.
. Great dive and snag.
- Jan 12, 2003
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Historic is a bit strong.
- Feb 12, 2005
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The Mariners would.
- Feb 12, 2005
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Dat Smoak game-ending DP
Gold glover this year.
- Feb 23, 2010
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Good points Pro, agree on all. I was just thinking that overuse in terms of breaking balls, not necessarily on fastballs/velocity, would be the issue. But like you said who am I to argue with The Man himself
. And re: parents, after watching Friday Night Lights/Varsity Blues I'd imagine that happens a lot in Texas, etc. Also I looked up Rodon...
Those of you who follow me on Twitter saw me voice my displeasure over NC State's usage of left-hander Carlos Rodon, the best college player in this year's draft class, on Friday night. Rodon, who has pitched with a 50- or 55-rated fastball all year, was going on short rest on Friday, but showed up (paradoxically) with more velocity, sitting at 92-94 mph and touching 96.
NC State then decided to push Rodon to 134 pitches, sending him back out to start his final inning after he'd already thrown 118 pitches, an acceptable, if upper-bound, number for a 21-year-old pitcher. This was a clear example of a coaching staff putting their own interests over those of a pitcher, a perfect example of moral hazard at work in amateur baseball, one that calls for regulation by the NCAA.
The Wolfpack, despite having two of the best college players in the country this year, are 5-11 in the ACC so far (19-14 overall) and in danger of missing the NCAA tournament, a result that would be devastating given their talent level. The potential cost of missing the tournament is so high that the coaching staff has the incentive to try to win at all costs, including asking players to do things that may not be in their own best interests, such as throwing 134 pitches in one outing. Only one MLB pitcher did that in all of 2013: Tim Lincecum, in his July 13 no-hitter. (In fact, since the start of the 2010 season, only four MLB pitchers have thrown 134 or more pitches. Three were no-hitters, one was Brandon Morrow's 17-strikeout one-hitter in 2010, and all four spread those pitches over nine innings rather than Rodon's 7 2/3 innings.)
Rodon has a potential $6-7 million payday in front of him, and putting him at any risk like this, real or perceived, is wrong. The reaction within the industry, among sources with whom I've spoken, was unanimously negative. Rodon shouldn't have been sent back out for the eighth inning, period.
I hope there are no ill effects from this kind of outing, but it is inevitable that we will eventually see a pitcher used too heavily in his draft year and then blow out shortly thereafter, costing him a large payday. Causality is irrelevant at that point; the mere perception of misuse will lead to serious consequences -- from recruiting to a potential lawsuit -- for the coaching staff in question. That may be what it takes to get the NCAA involved to put a stop to this kind of nonsense.
NC State then decided to push Rodon to 134 pitches, sending him back out to start his final inning after he'd already thrown 118 pitches, an acceptable, if upper-bound, number for a 21-year-old pitcher. This was a clear example of a coaching staff putting their own interests over those of a pitcher, a perfect example of moral hazard at work in amateur baseball, one that calls for regulation by the NCAA.
The Wolfpack, despite having two of the best college players in the country this year, are 5-11 in the ACC so far (19-14 overall) and in danger of missing the NCAA tournament, a result that would be devastating given their talent level. The potential cost of missing the tournament is so high that the coaching staff has the incentive to try to win at all costs, including asking players to do things that may not be in their own best interests, such as throwing 134 pitches in one outing. Only one MLB pitcher did that in all of 2013: Tim Lincecum, in his July 13 no-hitter. (In fact, since the start of the 2010 season, only four MLB pitchers have thrown 134 or more pitches. Three were no-hitters, one was Brandon Morrow's 17-strikeout one-hitter in 2010, and all four spread those pitches over nine innings rather than Rodon's 7 2/3 innings.)
Rodon has a potential $6-7 million payday in front of him, and putting him at any risk like this, real or perceived, is wrong. The reaction within the industry, among sources with whom I've spoken, was unanimously negative. Rodon shouldn't have been sent back out for the eighth inning, period.
I hope there are no ill effects from this kind of outing, but it is inevitable that we will eventually see a pitcher used too heavily in his draft year and then blow out shortly thereafter, costing him a large payday. Causality is irrelevant at that point; the mere perception of misuse will lead to serious consequences -- from recruiting to a potential lawsuit -- for the coaching staff in question. That may be what it takes to get the NCAA involved to put a stop to this kind of nonsense.
NC State Wolfpack starter Carlos Rodon is expected to be one of the first few players taken in the upcoming amateur draft. However, his coaches certainly isn’t being careful with his precious arm. In a complete game loss to Georgia Tech on Friday, Rodon threw 132 pitches. Overall, Rodon allowed one run on six hits and two walks while striking out 15.
As Chris Crawford of MLB Draft Insider noted on Twitter, Rodon has tossed a total of 379 pitches over his last three starts, an average of 126 pitches per start. It’s one thing for a veteran Major League pitcher to average 126 pitches over three starts, but it’s very concerning that the Wolfpack have been riding Rodon’s arm so heavily. As his age implies, the 21-year-old’s arm is still developing and still getting used to a strenuous workload.
ESPN’s Keith Law wrote a column on April 13 raising concern after NC State had Rodon throw 134 pitches. Law criticized Rodon’s coaching staff for making him throw so many pitches:
This was a clear example of a coaching staff putting their own interests over those of a pitcher, a perfect example of moral hazard at work in amateur baseball, one that calls for regulation by the NCAA.
The plight of college athletes has gained some publicity lately with Northwestern football’s quest to unionize and University of Connecticut basketball player Shabazz Napier telling the media that some nights he went to bed “starving”. It’s easy to see the abuse of top-tier pitchers and it’s even easier to see why it happens.
NC State Wolfpack baseball head coach Elliott Avent and associate head coach Tom Holliday don’t get more money or more job security by protecting Rodon. Taking him out of the game after 90 pitches means the team would need to rely on inferior pitchers, making them more likely to lose games. And when the team loses more games, that reflects poorly on the coaching staff. Rodon won’t be giving Avent ten percent of his signing bonus, so what is Avent’s motivation to do anything other than ride Rodon’s arm into the ground, vying for wins?
Unfortunately, Rodon is in a sticky situation. He can’t say no to his manager, as insubordination will stick with him throughout his professional career and it will make him an easy target for controversy. But he also shouldn’t have to put up with being forced to throw nearly 130 pitches every time he pitches. NC State’s season ends on May 17, so Rodon only has another handful of starts to make before he can look forward to starting his professional baseball career. Let’s hope that the miles put on his arm only makes him stronger, and doesn’t make him any more likely to turn into the next Mark Prior.
As Chris Crawford of MLB Draft Insider noted on Twitter, Rodon has tossed a total of 379 pitches over his last three starts, an average of 126 pitches per start. It’s one thing for a veteran Major League pitcher to average 126 pitches over three starts, but it’s very concerning that the Wolfpack have been riding Rodon’s arm so heavily. As his age implies, the 21-year-old’s arm is still developing and still getting used to a strenuous workload.
ESPN’s Keith Law wrote a column on April 13 raising concern after NC State had Rodon throw 134 pitches. Law criticized Rodon’s coaching staff for making him throw so many pitches:
This was a clear example of a coaching staff putting their own interests over those of a pitcher, a perfect example of moral hazard at work in amateur baseball, one that calls for regulation by the NCAA.
The plight of college athletes has gained some publicity lately with Northwestern football’s quest to unionize and University of Connecticut basketball player Shabazz Napier telling the media that some nights he went to bed “starving”. It’s easy to see the abuse of top-tier pitchers and it’s even easier to see why it happens.
NC State Wolfpack baseball head coach Elliott Avent and associate head coach Tom Holliday don’t get more money or more job security by protecting Rodon. Taking him out of the game after 90 pitches means the team would need to rely on inferior pitchers, making them more likely to lose games. And when the team loses more games, that reflects poorly on the coaching staff. Rodon won’t be giving Avent ten percent of his signing bonus, so what is Avent’s motivation to do anything other than ride Rodon’s arm into the ground, vying for wins?
Unfortunately, Rodon is in a sticky situation. He can’t say no to his manager, as insubordination will stick with him throughout his professional career and it will make him an easy target for controversy. But he also shouldn’t have to put up with being forced to throw nearly 130 pitches every time he pitches. NC State’s season ends on May 17, so Rodon only has another handful of starts to make before he can look forward to starting his professional baseball career. Let’s hope that the miles put on his arm only makes him stronger, and doesn’t make him any more likely to turn into the next Mark Prior.
That picture in the Law article pretty much says it all, look at his face.
dat struggle
:x
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For seasons as a 20/21 year old, historic is on the dot. Just because Mike Trout is out here having 10+ WAR seasons and shattering everything we think about baseball doesn't mean Harper is some bum now a 20 year old with his style who can smack 20 HR's in that park, score 98 times, steal 18 bases and slash .340/.477 on base and slugging then come back as a 21 year old off an injury smack 20, steal 11, slash .368/.48 is having a historic start to his career. Just because his RBI totals are low and his batting average is below .300 doesn't mean he's struggling.
If you're starting a franchise, you usually don't start with stud pitchers over "5 tool" hitters. You always take the hitter. Because what's to stop JoFer from becoming a Kerry Wood/Mark Prior horror story? There's way too much risk to take a pitcher over a hitter in that scenario.
But, to each their own.
frink85
Oh I definitely agree about the overuse argument too like I was saying, I think if you know a kid can't throw a curve/slider/cutter and you continue to force him to try and learn for a long period of time, there's a huge risk of elbow damage.
You would think parents are smart and worried about their kids welfare but you wouldn't believe the amount of parents that are taking their kids to get TJS at an early age when they have no elbow damage. Just because they believe in the fallacy that after TJS you have increased velo and that = you'll be better and more sought after. You'll have increased velo sure but is it worth putting a kid through that major surgery?
a 20 year old with his style who can smack 20 HR's in that park, score 98 times, steal 18 bases and slash .340/.477 on base and slugging then come back as a 21 year old off an injury smack 20, steal 11, slash .368/.48 is having a historic start to his career. Just because his RBI totals are low and his batting average is below .300 doesn't mean he's struggling.If you're starting a franchise, you usually don't start with stud pitchers over "5 tool" hitters. You always take the hitter. Because what's to stop JoFer from becoming a Kerry Wood/Mark Prior horror story? There's way too much risk to take a pitcher over a hitter in that scenario.
But, to each their own.
frink85
Oh I definitely agree about the overuse argument too like I was saying, I think if you know a kid can't throw a curve/slider/cutter and you continue to force him to try and learn for a long period of time, there's a huge risk of elbow damage.You would think parents are smart and worried about their kids welfare but you wouldn't believe the amount of parents that are taking their kids to get TJS at an early age when they have no elbow damage. Just because they believe in the fallacy that after TJS you have increased velo and that = you'll be better and more sought after. You'll have increased velo sure but is it worth putting a kid through that major surgery?
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I never used the words struggling or bum at all, guy is a the goods but the media tends to overrate him a bit since they want to sell the sport. You don't find a commercials calling him a legend a bit excessive for a 21 year old player who has yet to do anything?
Being over-rated =/= bad player.
Being over-rated =/= bad player.
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I think people are arguing in terms of actuality. The media is a whole different realm. I hate them.
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Archie Bradley (21) and Yordano Ventura (22) should be on the list, Pro.
do work son
Banned
- May 22, 2010
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jewbacca
Banned
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All college aces like Rodon get over extended, that's nothing new.
In my opinion arm injuries come from bad mechanics and poor arm conditioning, and when there's a mixture of the two, you're asking trouble.
Many pitchers, even top level college pitches, don't learn how to properly use their legs in their delivery until reaching pro ball. Just as an example, Wacha and Ross Stripling (dodgers prospect who recently had TJ) both experienced spikes in velocity after leaving A&M cause they were not taught how to properly use their legs in their deliveries.
Poor arm conditioning plays a huge role too. It's not really shocking that there is a huge number of guys who need TJ during spring training because their arms are not properly conditioned and start throwing max effort too fast.
The more you throw, the stronger and better conditioned your arm is going to be. There is a huge difference between just playing catch to condition your arm and going out there and throwing max effort. When you hear those outlandish stories about the Japense pitchers throwing like 200 pitch bullpens or whatever, I guarantee you they are literally just playing catch off the mound working on their mechanics.
Cliff notes: poor arm conditioning and bad mechanics lead to arm surgeries. A lot of players don't know how to condition and take care of their arms to begin with.
In my opinion arm injuries come from bad mechanics and poor arm conditioning, and when there's a mixture of the two, you're asking trouble.
Many pitchers, even top level college pitches, don't learn how to properly use their legs in their delivery until reaching pro ball. Just as an example, Wacha and Ross Stripling (dodgers prospect who recently had TJ) both experienced spikes in velocity after leaving A&M cause they were not taught how to properly use their legs in their deliveries.
Poor arm conditioning plays a huge role too. It's not really shocking that there is a huge number of guys who need TJ during spring training because their arms are not properly conditioned and start throwing max effort too fast.
The more you throw, the stronger and better conditioned your arm is going to be. There is a huge difference between just playing catch to condition your arm and going out there and throwing max effort. When you hear those outlandish stories about the Japense pitchers throwing like 200 pitch bullpens or whatever, I guarantee you they are literally just playing catch off the mound working on their mechanics.
Cliff notes: poor arm conditioning and bad mechanics lead to arm surgeries. A lot of players don't know how to condition and take care of their arms to begin with.
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Why are players still sliding to 1st? Bryce Harper the latest victim...
- Feb 12, 2005
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Makes you appear that you're hustling more...Bryce trying to make amends.
jewbacca
Banned
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Why are players still sliding to 1st? Bryce Harper the latest victim...
???
Harper got hurt sliding into 3rd.
But on the subject of sliding into 1st, Harold Reynolds is an idiot. He was on MLBN last week talking about about how it's faster to slide into first base. Dude had be dying. If sliding was faster, you'd see track athletes diving and sliding at the finish line lol
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???Why are players still sliding to 1st? Bryce Harper the latest victim...
Harper got hurt sliding into 3rd.
I hear you.
I'm saying his start is historic not that he's a legend. That part of your argument I totally understand. I just don't think he's overrated unless we're talking strictly about the media/those commercials.
That's what I mean when I say it's a historic start.
jewbacca
I feel like we're saying the same thing, just different routes to it 
champcruthik
I think I'm the only one not high on Archie. Kid is worse than Bauer with the command/control but everyone is calling for him to be in the majors. He has so much work to do.
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Ace/horse potential though. Critics constantly question Zack's command, both he and Archie will figure it out.
Bradley is struggling in the minors once the general public clamored for his call-up.
Polanco better than Tavares and Buxton?
Bradley is struggling in the minors once the general public clamored for his call-up.
Polanco better than Tavares and Buxton?
mr marcus
Banned
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never seen so many people get hurt sliding this early in the year
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Pro, just re-read Law's preface. Ventura and Bradley aren't eligible under his conditions, so disregard.
jewbacca
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http://lockerdome.com/mlbmemes/6170045562753857/6565587287559700
Braun taking out his teammates with friendly fire. SMH.
Braun taking out his teammates with friendly fire. SMH.
- Dec 19, 2013
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When I first saw the headline I honestly thought it was roid rage.
jumpmanfromdabay
Banned
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#LetzBone
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Harper most likely headed to the DL it's always something with DC's superstars...
Great game pitched by Tanner Roark yesterday
it's always something with DC's superstars...Great game pitched by Tanner Roark yesterday
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