ADOS

[tay1]

The resources they used are the same ones you’re sarcastically trying to scoff at. Keep chasing that bag of money of money though. The rest of us who are more pragmatic will figure out a way to truly help black people in this country for generations to come.

Why has it taken so long for it to happen already?

 

[lamekilla]

Why has it taken so long for it to happen already?

Obama and Black Panther hadn’t happen yet? Lol im being facetious but there seems to be more of a spiritual awakening amongst our community that really values what it means to be black and how much we contribute to this planet. Our generation is living and breathing in this realization and we’ll be the ones to at the VERY LEAST get a serious dialogue started to plant the seeds.

 

[tay1]

Obama and Black Panther hadn’t happen yet? Lol im being facetious but there seems to be more of a spiritual awakening amongst our community that really values what it means to be black and how much we contribute to this planet. Our generation is living and breathing in this realization and we’ll be the ones to at the VERY LEAST get a serious dialogue started to plant the seeds.

I'd say more of a conscious awakening than a spiritual one. And that is happening. Partly due to the effects of social media.

I agree this generation has picked up from the ruins of the destruction for our leaders and throughout the times of the 80s and 90s but there's still plenty to do.

And we have started dialogues. Too many of them. That's one of our problems. We talk too ******* much and we don't do anything. Give you an example. There's this brotha, creator of webuyblack. He's trying to open a grocery store in Atlanta with all black owned products. To get the building, he needs $400,000. He has over 400k followers. Yet at this moment, he's barely at $250 wtih a month having passed. We do all the talking but don't back it up. Many of us are complacent with our misery and this makes it harder to gather resources through our own people, which is one of the many reasons why reparations are needed. It's not a question of if or should we receive it. We need it before our wealth as a people goes all the way to 0 in less than 35 years.

 

[largofool]

The resources they used are the same ones you’re sarcastically trying to scoff at. Keep chasing that bag of money of money though. The rest of us who are more pragmatic will figure out a way to truly help black people in this country for generations to come.

I know you mentioned that your black immigrant parents, who needed the white mans education to siphon from my country in order to contribute to theirs, know the English language secondary to their own.

I’m starting to wonder if that is the case with you. I never scoffed at free education. I scoffed at you suggesting that reparations are divisive and your assertion that free education should be the extent of reparations offered to ados, when we are in in fact due and entitled to much more

 

[lamekilla]

I know you mentioned that your black immigrant parents, needed the white mans education to siphon from my country in order to contribute to theirs, know the English language secondary to their own.

I’m starting to wonder if that is the case with you. I never scoffed at free education. I scoffed at you suggesting that reparations are divisive and your assertion that free education should be the extent of reparations offered to ados, when we are in in fact due and entitled to much more

Boy you lost. This conversation is over.

 

[largofool]

Boy you lost. This conversation is over.

Ados fam, solesupreme93

Take notice of points ignored and unaddressed by our allies

@deuce king #tangibles2020. No black agenda, no vote

 

[hand2handking]

there are immigrant countries that speak english

 

[gry60]

Team ados remain vigilant and cognizant of every these black immigrants/ 1st/2nd generationals claiming to be allies. We have been here for 4 plus centuries and we have black immigrants with about 2 decades of equity in this country telling us what we deserve. #lineagematters.

Take notice of how this black immigrant insists he's in support 101% but says ADOS shouldn't receive land or money.
Take notice of how this black immigrant begrudgingly acknowledges that monetary reparations are due to ADOS after presented with evidence of other marginalized groups receiving cash payments.
Take notice of this black immigrant stating that ADOS quest for reparations should be about helping out all blacks after he realizes our legit claim to land and money.
Now this same black immigrant denigrating ADOS for wanting a hand out from white daddy has his out and wants to receive the benefits our ancestors bled for after saying we weren't entitled to them
Take notice of the language used by this black immigrant and how when it comes to ADOS he uses terms with negative connotation like "throwing money at the situation" to try to diminish our claims.
Take notice of the faux concern of this black immigrant and him saying that problems in the Black community are deeper than wealth gap when we know that the majority of our problems stem from it.
Notice how this black immigrant alludes to ADOS as being financially illiterate.
Notice this black immigrant demanding a plan of action while ignoring the black agenda from ados101.com, which has been posted numerous times in this thread.
Notice that this black immigrant accuses me of projecting a victimhood mentality for demanding reparations. Now notice how he never refers to the recipients of reparations of other groups in the same manner.
Notice this black immigrant saying we and us. You have to remind black immigrants like this that are against the movement for reparations that we are not the same. Lineage matters. We were brought here. Your parents choose to move you here to be subjected to the laws of the white man.

Hahahahaha

"Check out this black immigrant..."

Meanwhile, Republicans in Florida and in the rest of the country are instituting the equivalent of a poll tax for ex-felons to keep them from the voting booth.

You come to this thread, where NOBODY has been against reparations, unlike the real world, where reparations are very unpopular (check the polls, especially the polls among Black Americans), to spew your hate at those who ask how your political inaction will result in checks and what have you.

Keep fighting the Black immigrant "invasion" while your real enemy is sneaking behind your back to give you your tangibles2020.

 

[Maximus Meridius]

How much would it cost?

While the sum owed in reparations for the entirety of anti-black discrimination in the United States is undetermined, the amount of the claim just evaluating slavery in isolation—without the era of Jim Crow that followed—is in the trillions. The market price of the average slave was roughly equal to the price of a house; using relative earnings, a single slave worth $400 in 1850 would today be worth $195,000. As Professor Sandy Darity Jr.—a leading economist and premiere scholar in the area of American reparations— and Prof. Dania Frank have illustrated using the work of Vedder, Gallaway and Klingaman, the gains in wealth to white southerners from ownership of blacks in 1859 was $3.2 million. In today’s dollars, the value of that debt is estimated to be somewhere between $5 to $10 trillion dollars, depending upon the interest rate used for compounding purposes. Economist Larry Neal of the University of Illinois calculated an even more specific number looking just at wages. His research indicated that between the years of 1620-1840, minus the cost of maintenance (medical, food, housing) descendants of slaves in America were owed $1.4 trillion. Using an interest rate of 5%, that’s a total of $8.4 trillion in today’s money just in lost wages.

 

[gry60]

Looks like some Africans would be eligible for reparations...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americo-Liberians


Americo-Liberians, or Congo people or Congau people in Liberian English,[2] are a Liberian ethnic group of African American, Afro-Caribbean and Liberated African descent. The sister ethnic group of Americo-Liberians are the Sierra Leone Creole people, who shared similar ancestry and related culture.[3] Americo-Liberians trace their ancestry to free-born and formerly enslaved African Americans who emigrated in the 19th century to become the founders of the stateof Liberia. They identified there as Americo-Liberians. (Some African Americans – in the more common sense of the term – following resettlement in Canada also participated as founding settlers in Sierra Leone and present-day Côte d'Ivoire.[3]) Although the terms "Americo-Liberian" and "Congo" had distinct definitions in the nineteenth century, they are currently interchangeable and refer to an ethnic group composed of the descendants of the various free and ex-slave African American, Caribbean, Recaptive, and Sierra Leone Creoles who settled in Liberia from 1822.

 

[largofool]

Hahahahaha

"Check out this black immigrant..."

Meanwhile, Republicans in Florida and in the rest of the country are instituting the equivalent of a poll tax for ex-felons to keep them from the voting booth.

You come to this thread, where NOBODY has been against reparations, unlike the real world, where reparations are very unpopular (check the polls, especially the polls among Black Americans), to spew your hate at those who ask how your political inaction will result in checks and what have you.

Keep fighting the Black immigrant "invasion" while your real enemy is sneaking behind your back to give you your tangibles2020.

Yeah, check y’all out. I want ados to be able to differentiate between the fake and the real.

Y’all want credit for “supporting reparations” like you somehow should be celebrated for being noble and acknowledging undeniable fact that America owes a debt to ados.

We are better off without your support. In fact, indifference from you is preferred. At least that way you won’t intentionally sabotage us from receiving our just due by trying to speak on our behalf. Mind your business while we hold our nuts. We don’t need black immigrants interference under the guise of support. Why do you feel the need to jump in and confidently interject that we shouldn’t be compensated fully. That cash for ados is Ill advise. That land shouldn’t be considered. That policy and free education should be all that is rendered. If that’s the support y’all are contributing, no thanks. Who needs enemies with friends like these.

It’s ironically amusing witnessing y’all try so hard to act like we could be working in concert to achieve the goal of reparations for ados since all parties are in obvious support of it but can’t because we’re begging, xenophobic, and financially illiterate blacks who have an affinity for trump

Republicans arent sneaking. They are the type to stab you while looking in your eye as opposed to from the back. They are in power in Florida because the Hispanics, our allies in color, are voting them in. I’ll let you guess the political party with specifics for illegal aliens, but lack tangibles for ados. But we just continue to vote democrat right.

 

[largofool]

@deuce king #tangibles2020. No black agenda, no vote.

 

[gry60]

largofool

Shut up dude. Your insistence on trying to put hard boundaries within the global Black community shows that you are not pursuing reparations out of a sense of justice, but out of hatred (or maybe jealousy) towards those Blacks who came here and made something of themselves.

Did you know that Ghanean, Liberian, Sierra Leonan, or Ivorian immigrants could actually qualify for reparations if:


1/ they descend from those free slaves who resettled on the West Coast of Africa and
2/ have been Americans for more than 10 years?

Those people exist, so you can tone down the anti-Black immigrant rhetoric.

 

[solesupreme93]

A check will do absolutely nothing for our community when the majority of us lack financial literacy, hence why education should be the priority. The black dollar barely circulates within our communities right; dropping a large check on people with no clue how to invest or save will have minimal benefit long term.

idc about what they do with the money. close that weath gap and cut the check. I'm not here to dictate what they do with their money. Although we can add in some financial literacy programs but we still need that check.

 

[solesupreme93]

largofool

Shut up dude. Your insistence on trying to put hard boundaries within the global Black community shows that you are not pursuing reparations out of a sense of justice, but out of hatred (or maybe jealousy) towards those Blacks who came here and made something of themselves.

Did you know that Ghanean, Liberian, Sierra Leonan, or Ivorian immigrants could actually qualify for reparations if:


1/ they descend from those free slaves who resettled on the West Coast of Africa and
2/ have been Americans for more than 10 years?

Those people exist, so you can tone down the anti-Black immigrant rhetoric.

someones upset. None of those groups you named have done anything to help Ados in the last 50 years. We get called Akata while they reap the benefits ADOS ancestors fought and died for.

Also doesnt matter if they have been here for over 10 years they don't qualify for it. Reparations is for ADOS and no other group will try to sneak their way into it. If they want to fight for their own repartions then by all means do it we support it. We just won't be on the front lines for anyone elses issues but ours.

I love my black people all over the world but ADOS has to focus on us. Why is that such an issue?

 

[All Ready]

people really want financial literacy without the finances

nah dog

 

[solesupreme93]

people really want financial literacy without the finances

nah dog

crazy right?
how will you impliment the information without the money?

 

[hand2handking]

FYI ADOS Pan Africanists Today

Kwame Nkrumah

https://www.herald.co.zw/fyi-ados-pan-africanists-today/

At every phase of our struggle for liberation and human dignity, Africans at home and abroad who have courageously and selflessly fought on the front line, all arrive at the conclusion that unity is undeniably the most invaluable weapon at our disposal.

One of Mother Africa’s brightest sons Osagyefo Dr. Kwame Nkrumah told us all “ The forces that unite us are intrinsic and greater than the superimposed influences that keep us apart”, in the heat of battle it becomes extremely necessary to remember the most fundamental lessons that benefit our genuine resistance collectively.
On the African continent specifically, one of our best test cases concerning unity in perpetual motion serves us well, is both Zimbabwe’s 2nd and 3rd Chimurenga primarily because on the Patriotic United Front between ZANU and ZAPU, at height of the protracted armed struggle and the Unity Accord seven years after initial independence in 1980.

As history moved forward the last three administrations of US(The Bush and Obama and Trump currently ) let it be known to all who listen that while Zimbabwe is a small country it presents rather a peculiar problem concerning US interests in the region.

Whether the regime change agents in MDC, ZCTU or the 400 civil society groups whose blind loyalty is to US EU Imperialism, ever acknowledge this publicly, it is Zimbabwe’s political culture that has always been driven by unity, that forced them to become part of the inclusive government with Zanu-PF between 2009 and 2013.

While the example of Zimbabwe takes place on our Mother continent, it serves as an example and inspiration, that front line fighters and supporters of these efforts in the diaspora can not only learn from but aggressively incorporate on the strategical and tactical level.

If there is any indifference or backlash , it will come from quarters who are not comfortable looking to the African continent for insight and direction, because in the final analysis an amputated narrative of the African experience serves as their political and intellectual blueprint.

This amputated narrative which draws a striking resemblance to diced onions or dandruff on our scalps, happens to be the engine behind a social media driven network, that goes by the name American Descendants of Slaves(ADOS). We can only imagine how Bishop Richard Allen and Absalom Jones who started the Free African Society in 1794, would feel about the name ADOS.

The most visible and vocal proponents of the ADOS are a so called African American female and male tandem Ms. Yvette Carnell and Mr. Antonio Moore, Mr. Moore is a graduate of both UCLA and Loyola Law School and Ms. Carnell is a graduate of Howard University.

When articulating the ideological position of the ADOS, Mr. Moore takes on the character of a lawyer in the courtroom, where on the other hand Ms. Carnell who has a blog entitled Breaking Brown, has a more provocative and confrontational style of communication that appears to work for her.

At the forefront of the ADOS network’s political agenda is the age old question of reparations, similar to the manner that naked police terrorism defined Black Lives Matter and Imperialist corporate greed drove Occupy Wall Street movement.

Another characteristic that makes ADOS similar to both Black Lives Matter and Occupy Wall Street, is what appears to be a deliberate choice to have political space, detached from the organized formations who developed and championed the very issue that steers their political efforts and program.

We challenge any and everyone to go back and review the articles of Mr. Moore and blogs of Ms. Carnell and find them humbly recognizing the tireless and selfless work of the Provisional Government of the Republic of New Afrika, the New Afrikan Peoples Organization, NCOBRA(National Conference of Blacks For Reparations In America), Malcolm X Grass Roots Movement, December 12th Movement, and The National Black United Front. Even before these organized formations, the Nation of Islam and Africans who were in the Communist Party many moons ago, also pushed the question of reparations.

Because of our political culture takes on a matralineal character, the heart and soul of the reparations movement inside US borders was the larger than life Garveyite Queen Mother Moore, who took the red black and green flag of the UNIA-ACL and insisted it be the symbol of the reparations movement, that same flag is the symbol of what the internationally acclaimed hip hop group Dead Prez call RBG which stands for Revolutionary but Gangsta.

For whatever reason Mr. Moore and Ms. Carnell decided to yankee doodleize the Reparations question by not only dismissing the New Afrikan approach to reparations, but theoretically and figuratively draping themselves in the US flag.

When it comes to reactionary sentiments, we do have choices, you can either come out of the gate with plantation love like ADOS or wait until your twilight years like the NFL legend Jim Brown and scold Colin Kapernick for desecrating the red white and blue or Kareem Abdul Jabber who boycotted the US Olympics in 1968 over the Vietnam war but as a senior citizen became the cultural ambassador for the US State Department . Sadly this includes James Brown going from singing I’m Black and I’m Proud in the 60’s and then singing Living In America in the movie Rocky IV in the 80’s.

Another disturbing posture by Ms. Carnell and the ADOS network was to give the Pan Africanist movement a eulogy, which metaphorically speaking would be the equivalent of burying a human being alive. While genuine Pan Africanists were either angered or humored by this statement, we are delighted to know exactly Imperialism recruited for this opportunist mission.

When their appetite for for clarity and research increases, the ADOS will discover that the organizers who have pushed reparations in the streets beyond the comforts and confines of social media, gained crucial momentum when the reparations movement took on a Pan Africanist character.

Thanks to their contributions, reparations is a banner that has a home in the Caribbean thanks to the lawsuit by CARICOM and without question the efforts of our comrades in Namibia taking Germany to task for atrocities committed during the colonial era.

Cuba’s revolutionary demand for reparations stemming from the blockade is also part of the mix.

What this exposes is the ADOS refuses to acknowledge the boost Pan Africanist forces gave the reparations question at the UN conference on racism, xenophobia and other related intolerances. that took place in Durban, South Africa back in 2001. All patriotic Zimbabweans remind the world that was also the birth of the Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act.

Concerning relations between Africans at home and abroad a micro nationalist approach is not consistent with Ms. Carnell’s political origin. As a student at Howard University, Ms. Carnell was the Chief Financial Officer of former HUSA President Neville Welch who was born in Guyana, whose Chief of Staff Elsie Aguele was born in Nigeria. Perhaps today Ms. Carmella would say Mr. Welch should have been the head of the Caribbean Student Association and Mr. Aguele should have remained in the African Student Union, and only students born in the US should lead Student Governments at HBCUS.

What Ms. Carnell and Mr. Moore must also recognize is that even though the New Afrikan movement never deviated from the program of seeking five states

in the south seeking five states in the South, at no pointing their history did they consider themselves politically exempt from fighting US-EU Imperialism’s Africa policy.

Since Mr. Moore is a lawyer interested in Reparations, he should know that the late freedom fighter Chokwe Lumumba through NAPO was at the forefront of breaking former US President Ronald Reagan’s travel ban on Libya in 1987. In 2009 Comrade Lumumba persuaded both NAPO and the National Conference of Black Lawyers to sign an appeal to the Obama administration demanding US-EU sanctions on Zimbabwe be lifted immediately.

One of the most consistent organizations that was fought for Reparations based in New York the December 12th Movement, has remained at the forefront of defending the territorial integrity of Zimbabwe.

Every New Afrikan Organization gave platforms to ANC,PAC and AZAPO at their annual conventions.

What ADOS has done is challenged the legitimate forces committed to reparations, to distance themselves from the frauds, who exploited its mileage and don’t understand its roots. This includes Trans Africa Forum founder Randall Robinson and Retired US Congressman John Conyers .Robinson’s book The Debt What America owes to Blacks was a national best seller and Mr. Conyers pushed A reparations bill. Mr. Conyers voted in favor of sanctions on Zimbabwe and Mr. Robinson did nothing when TAF got in bed with the National Endowment for Democracy and worked for US EU regime change in Zimbabwe.

Would ADOS tell Senator and Presidential hopeful Bernie Sanders and former US President Barack Obama if they change their position on Reparations, maintaining sanctions on Zimbabwe is not an issue.

A rather interesting dynamic is that Mr. Moore’s articles are archived by a website called inequality.org,which is a front for the Institute of Policy Studies, financed the face liberal imperialist philanthropy George Soros, which unfortunately means if ADOS like so many others who are eating at Mr. Soros table, their expression of reparations doesn’t consider self determination a principle to die for.

Other ADOS mouthpieces have gone as far as stating Pan Africanism has achieved nothing concrete, if nothing else, as an act of humility and good will, let the Pan Africanist sector of our movement send the most consistent mouthpieces of ADOS a box of library cards.

ADOS front runners and extended mouthpieces should know the 5th Pan Africanist Congress resulted in thirty five countries in Africa liberating themselves from Settler Colonial Rule from 1957-1960, which remains the most rapid swing towards power ever witnessed in modern history.

One wonders if Ms. Carnell and Mr. Moore would have supported the deportation of the Honorable Marcus Mosiah Garvey, because the feel a Jamaican born African could not build the largest mass movement in modern times, that was launched on US soil.

If it was up to them Mr. Moore and Ms. Carnell would have told the writer Claude McKay to stay in Jamaica, as opposed to coming to Harlem to help build the Harlem Renaissance.The follow up would have been to tell Arthuro Schomburg to stay in Puerto Rico and not come to Harlem and start the American Negro Academy or build the Schomburg Library of Black Culture, or even better Kwame Ture should have not been allowed to chair SNCC because he was born in Trinidad.

This also suggests Paul Robeson should have stayed away from Claudia Jones and threw a bash in Harlem when she was deported for joining the Communist Party which violated the McCurran Act.

ADOS had better recognize the CTS which is an acronym to contributors to struggle, which focus on commitment not birth. What if Katherine Dunham and Pearle Primus didnt use dance to teach us about the Haitian Revolution or the anti colonial movement in Africa?

Every so called African American drumming and dancing ensemble, owe their very existence to that great Pan African giant Ahmed Seku Ture.and the PDG who championed the African Cultural Revolution.

What if Langston Hughes told the Cuban born African poet Nicholas Guiilen the poet laureate of the revolution I only want to work with poets of my color born in the US?

What if Fela Kuti never read the autobiography of Malcolm X, given to him by ex Panther Ericka Huggins, which made him embrace his mother’s legacy of struggle and the black power movement he avoided in Britain.

Should Cuba deport Assata Shakur and Nehanda Obiodun and tell them to join ADOS????

How much substance would Manning Marable’s book How Capitalism Underdeveloped Black America coned if he never studied How Europe Underdeveloped Africa who was inspired after reading George Padmore’s How Britain Ruled Africa?

Were SNCC and the Panthers wrong for distributing The Wretched Of The Earth because Frantz Fanon was born in Martinique and fought in the Algerian Revolution?

Lastly if Nnandi Azikwe and the Osagyefo never came to Lincoln University or Edwardo Mondlane and John Chilembwe didn’t attend Oberlin College or Virginia Theological Seminary, how would Ghana,Nigeria,Malawi and Mozambique look today? Would it matter if Amadou Diallo was shot down by the Contee regime in Guinee or the NYPD?.

Let us salute that Spanish speaking African Jesus Chucho Garcia for leading the Afro Descendant movement in the America’s, which is an alternative to a social media network that implies the slaveship was like an express train from Africa to the US with no stops in between.

While defending Pan Africanism falls on our shoulders going back and forth with ADOS is not a substitute for a concrete program.

 

[gry60]

Reparations is for ADOS and no other group will try to sneak their way into it.

Are you trying to argue that there aren't descendants of American slaves in Africa? That would be wrong. In addition, many of those freed Black folks who moved back to Western Africa had to pay for their freedom; they lost money to slavery (in addition to lost wages) and their descendants have the right to demand repayment from the US government, don't they?

I love my black people all over the world

See, I doubt it. If you have to make constant appeals to xenophobic sentiments to defend your position, you can't say the above with a straight face.

 

[solesupreme93]

FYI ADOS Pan Africanists Today

Kwame Nkrumah

https://www.herald.co.zw/fyi-ados-pan-africanists-today/

largofool you want to respond to this or should i?

Majority of the things in that article are over 50 years old...

In the last 50 years ADOS has been pushing and moving Pan Africanism forward. Also MAJORITY of the Black Immigrants in this country don't help push Pan Africanism. There is a few and i respect what they are doing. At the end of the day i want all black over the world to not have to deal with White Supremacy. Thing is ADOS has to focus on ourselves first and other groups hate it. We will no longer be at the bottom. We will no longer be a crutch for other groups.

 

[solesupreme93]

Are you trying to argue that there aren't descendants of American slaves in Africa? That would be wrong. In addition, many of those freed Black folks who moved back to Western Africa had to pay for their freedom; they lost money to slavery (in addition to lost wages) and their descendants have the right to demand repayment from the US government, don't they?


See, I doubt it. If you have to make constant appeals to xenophobic sentiments to defend your position, you can't say the above with a straight face.

stop it slime.. I love black people around the world but i can still be OBJECTIVE to how they treat ADOS. So did those groups not choose to go back to africa? Such as the Liberians for example? They couldn't take it here and dipped. Am i right or wrong?

 

[solesupreme93]

Are you trying to argue that there aren't descendants of American slaves in Africa? That would be wrong. In addition, many of those freed Black folks who moved back to Western Africa had to pay for their freedom; they lost money to slavery (in addition to lost wages) and their descendants have the right to demand repayment from the US government, don't they?


See, I doubt it. If you have to make constant appeals to xenophobic sentiments to defend your position, you can't say the above with a straight face.

Where is your family from??

 

[gry60]

stop it slime.. I love black people around the world but i can still be OBJECTIVE to how they treat ADOS. So did those groups not choose to go back to africa? Such as the Liberians for example? They couldn't take it here and dipped. Am i right or wrong?

Did they or did they not lose wages/wealth from the institution of slavery?

Where is your family from??

See what I'm saying?

 

[largofool]

largofool you want to respond to this or should i?

Majority of the things in that article are over 50 years old...

In the last 50 years ADOS has been pushing and moving Pan Africanism forward. Also MAJORITY of the Black Immigrants in this country don't help push Pan Africanism. There is a few and i respect what they are doing. At the end of the day i want all black over the world to not have to deal with White Supremacy. Thing is ADOS has to focus on ourselves first and other groups hate it. We will no longer be at the bottom. We will no longer be a crutch for other groups.

I’m mobile Right now

 

[hand2handking]