Champions League knockout stage draw

[jada2001retro]

Oh and I do know the goal Ronaldo scored in the 1st leg was the first goal Lloris conceded in 600+ minutes.

 

[persiafly]

Originally Posted by NIMFH

Excellent reasoning Jada. The strong facts and thoughtful analysis that back up your opinion are just brilliant . Thanks for such a remarkable contribution.

And by the way, I'm not saying Barça is the best team ever based off of this tie. I'm doing it based on the squad's overall body of work. 

 But for real it's a really tough argument to make for Valdes or any other goalkeeper being better than all others. I don't think he faced any shots against Stuttgart today. When Barca controls the ball so well in the midfield, it's hard for other teams to make Valdes work very hard. 
Iker, Julio Cesar, Buffon, Lloris are all world class and I don't know on what basis you'd pick Valdes over them. 

 

[jada2001retro]

Since the 31st of January, Lyon have not lost and Lloris has only let 2 goals in the net.

Valdes on the other had has let in 7 and Barca have lost and this includes 2 draws and 1 loss.

Just saying...

 

[nimfh]

Do we realize that we're comparing PSG, Toulouse, Lens, Sochaux, Nice, Boulogne and Saint Etienne to Getafe, ATL. Madrid, Racing, Malaga, Almeria and Valencia? Can you name a player off the top of your head from any of those teams besides PSG? None of those French teams would make it out of the Spanish 2nd Division.

I understand Valdes doesn't face many shots, but look at Cristiano's two point blank attempts back in November, look at his mano-a-mano with Zigic just this past week, watch the 2009 UCL final and see him block Ronaldo and Park time after time, watch the 2006 UCL final and watch him drive Henry nuts, watch last years semis and see him come out on top on FOUR mano-a-mano situations with Drogba. The dude just comes to play in the big games. Most of the goals he surrenders are the result of Barça's poor zone blocking.

 

[persiafly]

I don't think it's that relevant that his team was playing weaker teams, because his team itself is weaker, therefore he should be facing a somewhat similar amount of shots, if not more. Maybe in one on one situations Valdes faces better players, but I think the "he faces better teams" argument is better suited for defenses as a whole than for goalkeepers. He still faces professional football players in a European league and that 600 minute shutout streak is impressive no matter how you slice it.

And I could come up with specific saves to make an argument for all the other keepers as well. If you want to go back to 2006, Buffon's performance in the WC was one of the main reasons they won. You wanna talk streaks? How about not letting in a single goal from an opposing team in the flow of play for a whole World Cup? One own goal and one penalty. And his save on Zidane's header in the overtime period was absurd and incredible, basically won the cup for Italy.

I could make similar arguments about other keepers.

 

[nimfh]

If we're talking about Buffon in 2006 we can't forget that Italy had the best defensive performance a squad has ever had in a WC and that Italy plays the catenaccio style of play. Furthermore, I'm not arguing that Valdes was on top four years ago, I'm saying I believe he's in the best form right now.

I do think it's very relevant that he's facing weaker competition. Not only is OL's defensive line miles ahead of any other French team's, drastically reducing the amount of shots Lloris faces, but there's no way you're arguing that a goalkeeper faces the same odds against Vaclav Sverkos or Toifilou Maoulida as he does against Cristiano Ronaldo or Samuel Eto'o.

I'm a Lloris fan and I'm not saying his 600-minute streak isn't impressive, but you have to take it with a grain of salt.

 

[ROYGBiV]

dont really care for this seasons champion league but hope Barca gets but up againts Inter or Man U cus i do hate Messi with a passion

 other than that hope Roma ( my team) will make it next year. Totti FTW

  * crossses fingers we keep Toni  *

 

[jada2001retro]

How could you hate Messi? I think even Real fans like him, the kids brilliant and not an ounce of cockiness in him. His parents definitely raised him correctly.

 

[ROYGBiV]

Originally Posted by Jada2001Retro

How could you hate Messi? I think even Real fans like him, the kids brilliant and not an ounce of cockiness in him. His parents definitely raised him correctly.

def feel you in that sense but i just dont like Messi.. lol still got the bitter taste in my mouth when they knocked us out the world cup

 plus if things go as planned and we end up 2nd in our group we more than likly will face them. SALTY YES

  

 

[oskar kokoshka]

Gourcuff

Milan are crazy for letting this kid go

 

[hoosiers4life]

Originally Posted by NIMFH


Do we realize that we're comparing PSG, Toulouse, Lens, Sochaux, Nice, Boulogne and Saint Etienne to Getafe, ATL. Madrid, Racing, Malaga, Almeria and Valencia? Can you name a player off the top of your head from any of those teams besides PSG? None of those French teams would make it out of the Spanish 2nd Division.

Andre-Pierre Gignac, Blaise Matuidi, Moussa Sissokho
No Cheating. Boom.

Casillas > Valdes, Valdes is 3rd choice for Spain, he has the same number of caps as Manuel Almunia, 0.

Valdes is one of those guys that makes some saves that make you think wow, this guy is good, then he has huge mistakes. I don't think there's really any arguing that he has the best back 4 in the world in front of him.  The thing that kills the Spanish league to me is the gap between the top 2 and the field.  Even Valencia and Athletico just have a few great players, nothing like what Real and Barca put out there.

I also think its silly to say that teams like PSG and Toulouse wouldn't make it out of the Spanish 2nd division. Really? Ligue 1 is on the come up. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they leapfrog the Bundesliga and maybe even Serie A in the next few years and get that 3rd spot in the UEFA coefficients, or at least compete for it. 

 

[nimfh]

Yes, I am very serious about the Ligue 1 teams not getting out of Liga Adelante. Hercules, Cartagena, Betis, Real Sociedad and Llevant are above the level of the teams OL has faced lately.

And while we're at it, if it's about results, Barça has lost two damn games with Valdes in goal all season. TWO. Playing against world-class competition, too. I don't think the "Valdés has a great back four" argument holds weight in this particular comparison because Cissokho, Cris, Boumsong and Réveillère are easily the top defensive unit in Ligue 1.

Again, I like Lloris but you need to take his domestic performance with a grain of salt. Coupet was a superduperstar in France just a couple years ago and was an utter bust in Spain. The one French goalkeeper to have succeeded abroad lately was Barthez (who coincidentally is probably the goalie that Valdés reminds me the most of), and even he wasn't particularly consistent.

I'll give you that Valdés has his 4 or 5 brain farts every year, but take this and the last year's samples: against Zaragoza in a 6-1 game, against Racing in a 4-1 game, against Atlético Madrid in a 6-1 game and against Espanyol in a meaningless game with a 10-point lead while looking ahead to the UCL round of 16 match against OL. In big games, he is a monster.

And with this I think we can end this discussion. Even though we've all tried to make reasonable arguments here, evaluating a goalkeeper is way too subjective for us to come to an agreement. You prefer Lloris, I rather go to war with Valdés and that's that. Nobody's wrong here, and nobody is definitely right. It's all opinions.

I have a post on my website about the ties I'd like to see in the quarterfinals. Who would you guys like to see facing each other?

 

[erascism]

Valdes has improved over the years, but I think he is the benefactor of Barca's ability to hold possession for most of their games. He ranks pretty low in saves amongst La Liga keepers. How would he fare on another club? If I am Del Bosque, I still rate Diego Lopez over Valdes at this point.

 

[nimfh]

Valdés is probably not seeing the National Team any time soon. His personality is rather mercurial and Del Bosque won't risk it, nor should he. The one time Luis Aragonés called him up to Madrid for a bonding session with about 30 other players who were in the running to go to the Eurocup, Valdés blew up and raised hell so badly that the proceedings had to be suspended.

I'm not sold on Diego López for the same reason most of you aren't sold on Valdés. He's great in spurts, but this year he isn't anywhere near the form he displayed last year. He does have a great future and is very young soccer-wise because he barely played for 3 or 4 years backing up Casillas. If I'm Del Bosque I'd take Palop as the 3rd goalie. He's been excellent in Sevilla's marquee matchups except for his subpar showing against CSKA, and it would be a great way to pay homage to a warrior's career. It's not like the 3rd stringer is looking at any significant playing time anyhow.  

EDIT- Bonus "You don't want Valdés in your team hotel for 6 weeks" story. Last season the dude was charged for battery when he punched a man out because he felt that said man asking Valdés' PREGNANT girlfriend to stop smoking INSIDE THE MOVIE THEATER was disrespectful.

 

[persiafly]

It's all good man. You're dedicated to the cause of Valdes but it's pretty clear that there is no real reason to consider him to be the best goalkeeper in Europe. You can say he doesn't play for Spain because of his attitude or whatever, but I think the whole country would revolt if Iker was benched for Valdes, and it has nothing to do with attitude or chemistry. That's like me saying Fabregas is the best player in the world even though he doesn't even get burn on his own national team.

 

[nimfh]

Hell, I would revolt, and I hate Spain and Madrid. All I'm saying is he's been excellent throughout the season. As a side note, talk in Madrid is that Florentino is seriously considering gunning for a new goalkeeper, which would be the dumbest of all his dumb moves.

As a heads up, if any of you can tune in to the Europa League match between Atletico Madrid and Sporting, go ahead and do so. It's an excellent game early into the second half, as if Valencia and Bremen's 4-4 wasn't enough for thrilling matches tonight.

 

[wayne looney]

not CL but Fulham scored 4 against Juventus after an early Trezeguet goal to win on aggregate by one (5-4) in the Europa League

Dempsey had the winner

 

[marionthebarberian]

Brad Friedel >> vv

 

[solidsnake]

Originally Posted by Carlos Tevez

Originally Posted by PersiaFly

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Messi is a level above any other player in the world right now, and he's the best player since Zidane, right now better than the two Ronaldos and Ronaldinho have ever been.

As always people can't just appreciate a great player, you have to overreact and make crazy statements. Better than Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo, or Ronaldinho EVER played? EVER? Ronaldo in his El Phenomeno days? C. Ronaldo in his 42 goal season? Ronaldinho in his late PSG/early Barca days? Not arguing either way but I hate when people just throw out these grand statements. 

Yes he is. None of them were this dominant. 6 Trophies in 1 season. You take him out of the Barca line-up last season and who knows if they win anything. Lets also not forget that he carried Argentina in the U20 WC and that he helped Argentina win Olympic gold in Beijing.

Unlike Ronaldo, Messi is a team player who knows when to pass the ball and when to shoot. Just compare their assist numbers over the years. Ronaldo's 42-goal season was inflated due to him taking all of Man Utd's PKs and free-kicks (long and short).

As great as Ronaldinho was in 2005 and 2006, he did not perform his best in the KO-stages of the UCL. He did not do very much in the KO-stage the season Barca won the UCL. Look at how great Messi was in last season's KO-stage. Other than against Chelsea, he beasted against everyone else.

Fat Ronaldo didn't have much European success and obviously wasn't as complete of an attacker as Messi (due to playing a different position...it's not something I'm taking away from him). Think about it, Messi is doing this against the best clubs in the world. Based on overall impact, Messi is far more influential than Ronaldo was.

Messi is unstoppable for Barca and can be just as unstoppable for Argentina if Cokadonna gets his tactics right.

Right now:
1. Messi
2. Rooney
3. Ronaldo

Edit:
Messi has 21 goals in 42 career matches in Europe.
C. Ronaldo has 23 goals in 64 career European matches.
Ronaldinho has 26 goals in 65 career matches in Europe.
Ronaldo finished with 37 goals in 73 matches.

Messi will probably surpass C. Ronaldo's total in this year's edition of the UCL. Messi also has way more assists in Europe than Ronaldo. He'll also eventually score more European goals than Ronaldinho and he's the only player in this discussion that is scoring at as a prolific rate in Europe as Fat Ronaldo despite playing in a more withdrawn position than Fat Ronaldo. Enough said.

Woah, calm down there my man. However great Messi is, and undoubtedly he is, he is not better than Ronaldo (R9). That's not to say he wont end up being better than him, but currently he cannot claim that crown. Is Messi better than C. Ronaldo? Probably, is Messi better than Ronaldinho at his prime? Probably. Better than R9? Not yet. And just as a side note for Tevez and the rest of my American cousins, statistics do not rule the sport of football like they may in basketball for example, if they did than many a legendary players would be seen as useless. See Zidane, Scholes, Giggs, Gerrard, Rivelino, Sócrates, Matthäus, Francescoli etc...

 

[nimfh]

Fulham is really giving new meaning to the words "homefield advantage". They've destroyed Manchester United, Liverpool and Juventus at home and the three home games they've dropped came against Aston Villa, Arsenal and Chelsea. Very impressive.

I absolutely agree with solidsnake about stats in soccer. Determining most players' worth by statistics is akin to determining an offensive tackle's greatness by his touchdowns. Puyol has arguably been Barça's most important player this decade and he's scored all of 6 goals in the past 11 years.

 

[persiafly]

Who thinks the Dempsey goal was intentional?

I can't decide one way or the other. It was perfectly placed but it seemed like more of a cross when it left his foot, and there was a teammate on the far post.

 

[carlos tevez]

That Dempsey goal didn't look intentional to me. You gotta respect this dude though...he's the only American attacker who's performed well in Europe over the past few years (Donovan only did it for a few months).

I agree that stats dont mean as much in soccer as they do in other sports however I think they can be helpful when comparing players like Messi, Ronaldinho, C. Ronaldo who've played in the same competition (UCL) and domestic league in the same era. It's obviously difficult to compare players across eras.

Another interesting stat I read today:
-Messi in his first 6-seasons as a professional has scored 10-less goals in his club career than Zidane did in 18-seasons (Messi is likely to score 11 more goals by the end of the season)
-Messi has 21 less career assists than Zidane

Still too early to make that comparison though

 

[jada2001retro]

Messi will end up being one of the best ever to play the game, I mean look at him now...

On another note...at 6am EST tomorrow they will have the draw, so by the time I wake up for work at 7am I will know who we are playing...pretty nervous, I think we can handle anyone besides Barca and Utd pretty easily. Would like to see us get CSKA or Bordeaux really bad though.

 

[babam11218719]

Please put Inter, UTD, Barca and someone else on the same half. That would be so great. I honestly don't think we could beat Utd, Barca or Inter over two legs. Put us in a Champions League final though and anything can happen.

 

[blaxoid]

I pray to god Bayern get Arsenal