Early Releases are High Quality Fakes

[soleyz]

I actually agree with you on that part. If the shoe meets all of that criteria, I would call that an authentic shoe. If it's from the same production run that was scheduled by Nike, I'm cool with them making extra pairs and flipping them.
Now explain to me why Space Jams are still in production. We don't have a single clue where these shoes are being made and who's actually making them. For all we know a former factory employee decided to make the Michael Scott Paper Company of shoe production and went on his own.

 

[ninjahood]

Ok but if this was the case and "molds" have been stolen and sold to all these factories then why are their still all these fugazi replica sites hocking these really bad and error filled replicas? All of these so called AAA replicas are still out there yet have blatant and obvious telltale signs. And why do these early release sites run out of shoes just like a regular retailer or never rarely have full size runs of some kicks?
And all those "sample" colorways have always existed which anybody can own for a price of anywhere from $45-65 bucks. I mean aren't there like 8 colorways of Yeezy 2s?
I'm not pro early release sites nor am I pro Nike authorized retailers only. I'm pro me getting the shoes I want hassle free. If by getting them means paying an early site a few bucks more to get them not only months early but at a "fair" aftermarket price instead of sleeping in the cold overnight or haggling with some pimple faced hypebeast kid over price then that's what I'mma do. I won't feel guilty nor will I question the authenticity.

First two paras -

That doesn't matter. We are establishing a definition here - that means defining a concept, not looking at the landscape and retrofitting our conception to match that. ...Like Jeff Van Gundy says about basketball, you have to call it in the air - before you know the outcome.

So, if even one company that produced these "authentic" but unauthorized shoes decided they would run their own production schedule and start producing models on an entirely different schedule than JB, those would have to be authentic too - by your definition. Because, you say all that matters is the same materials and molds. So, these factories can produce any Jordan model shoe for which they have a mold at any time and they are authentic. And, those factories can then sell the mold to others to do the same, and those would be authentic too.

Why that doesn't happen doesn't matter. Under your definition, those would all be authentic pairs.

That's essentially deeming it possible for an entire shadow copy of JB to exist on its own work plans overseas completely separate from Nike and all their products are above board.

Last para -

Sorry, I read this as basically saying I'll tell myself whatever I have to in order to convince myself what I want to believe. And, FTR, I've never in my life spent a single second standing in front of a sneaker store waiting for it to open, nor have I spent over retail to get a shoe in advance. So, please don't think I'm glorifying that aspect of attaining kicks. I hate the "pimple-faced hypebeast kids" as much as you - I'm old enough to be a dad to many of them.

this is where you getting it ****** up.

its not da consumer's responsibility to blow da whistle on factories stealing nike/JB materials and making products that are unauthorized, its NIKE as a company's

job to crack down on internal theft.

cuz da point you're bringing up isn't a authentic VS fake argument, its a ethnics and morality one.

if i go buy a pair of jordans from nike town they're a real pair of jordans...if someone went to niketown, STOLE da pair of jordans and sold em to me 1/2 off

guess what? they're STILL a pair of REAL jordans..it doesn't MATTER if homie stole em from da store, once he sold em to me, all that is out da window.

da real question you should be asking is "do i care that someone is stealing materials when nike/JB isn't looking and cranking out unauthorized runs of classic

jordans on demand?" and da answer is HELL NO, keep em coming

 

[Bert.]

once again ill just end this thread. i dont support or care about early release shoes, those who buy them, good for you.
if they are made in the same factory, same materials, same time as production, same everything, same detail as every single shoe made then how are they fake? someone explain that.

I actually agree with you on that part. If the shoe meets all of that criteria, I would call that an authentic shoe. If it's from the same production run that was scheduled by Nike, I'm cool with them making extra pairs and flipping them.

Now explain to me why Space Jams are still in production. We don't have a single clue where these shoes are being made and who's actually making them. For all we know a former factory employee decided to make the Michael Scott Paper Company of shoe production and went on his own.

well no idea about the space jams, i would consider those fake in a way. sure they are legit materials but they are being what 1-2 years after the release? because these SJ remakes been around since last summer. its fishy but looks like we will never get to the bottom of it.

 

[ninjahood]

What's the point of even copping early? To be the first with them? Smh @ hype beast these day.

cats been copping stuff early to stunt since forever.

al po and rich porter used to cop BMWs from 1988 and da year was still 1985.

 

[sunshineblotters]

Thanks for the response! This topic is definitely controversial.. but really good discussion going on

I see the reason why Coca Cola was so strict on their standards. It looks to me like Coke pushing for stricter quality control was fueled by the thought of being sued from producing products that could be potentially dangerous.

That's probably a good reason why Jordan Brand isn't as strict as Coca Cola on quality control because they're products don't automatically pose as potentially being dangerous.

And also, we're talking about a coke bottle/can compared to a shoe. It seems to me standards would be more difficult for Nike.

I wish Nike would just add something to each of their shoes that would guarantee the shoe was 100% authentic. Some sort of mark or something... (ex. 2012 Cement 4s.. they added the twenty twelve I believe in the middle of the tongue.) So there wouldn't be any arguing or come out with some statement.

Yes they did add that, which makes it easier to spot fakes. But if you bought one of those unauthorized pairs that was the same as a "real" pair in every way, it would still have the words twenty-twelve, after all their authorized laborers knew about it from the start and have access to the machines that would allow them to imprint the words twenty-twelve in such a fine manner. If you do not have access to that machine, then you certainly do not have access to the factories, which means you didnt use materials from the same pool as others. Those in my book are fake. You simply bought similar materials and knew how to make a product indistinguishable from the real thing.

They should really expand on that idea, because it really would work exponentially better if they were all different. Like for instance if the WCs said "Twenty-twelve" then when the militaries came out it should've said "two-zero-one-two" because a high quality fake would expect it to say "twenty-twelve" they would have produced pairs with that mark instead. Then there would be no argument who had access to authentic factory machines, materials, and laborers and who had one of those fakes indistinguishable from the real thing without a closer look. That way nike can at least stump the sales of products we can all agree are fake.

 

[eltouha]

the ultraviolet message on xx1's are the best way imo. no fake shoe maker are going to be bothered making invisible ink.

 

[sunshineblotters]

the ultraviolet message on xx1's are the best way imo. no fake shoe maker are going to be bothered making invisible ink.

Yah, but then who would bother to check?

 

[eltouha]

mate, the cats round here would check even if was a taste test when jb make the outsoles taste just like snozzberries. sole licking nds shoes, i bet they would!

 

[dtb00201]

well no idea about the space jams, i would consider those fake in a way. sure they are legit materials but they are being what 1-2 years after the release? because these SJ remakes been around since last summer. its fishy but looks like we will never get to the bottom of it.

and that's kind of my point. A lot of the same places that were selling the supposed authentic early release pairs were also selling those random remakes and promo shoes. I'm not even saying that all early release shoes are going to be fake. I think it probably originated as taking extra pairs off of the production line and selling them, and that's why the shoes never used to come with the original box, but over time it turned into something else. All I'm saying is, people have posted comparison pics where different leathers, issues with shape, and different colors were used on early pairs in some cases. If we know they're capable of making shoes 3 years later, why is so hard to believe they may be mixing in these pairs with legit ones. Think about the sheer number of early release pairs that hit the market now in comparison to 5 years ago. it doesn't add up to just making a few extra pairs. We're talking about a serious operation here. If there were no differences between the pairs, how is flight club able to spot early release pairs from retail pairs without even being told? People forget that this is how this entire debate started. That guy from the concord thread bought a pair of those space jams last year and they told him they were fake as soon as he put the box on the counter.

 

[djyoung08]

mate, the cats round here would check even if was a taste test when jb make the outsoles taste just like snozzberries. sole licking nds shoes, i bet they would!

:x

True though

 

[o0mojorisin0o]

This thread is way more interesting and factual that the debates lol.

 

[soleyz]

Ultimately, at the end of the day, Nike sells out of all of their retro shoes. Money is made and all is good. They do not make money off the secondary market. (Reselling after you purchase for retail.) And I'm sure cracking down on the inferior products that are being made will cost them a big chunk of change, so why bother right? The only real reason they would do it was to uphold their brand but obviously money is more important.

A lot of people are talking about if it's the same quality then its authentic. But if you see the video above about the High Quality fake Space Jams, you can clearly see the material is almost identical to the authentic pairs, except for some things here and there. (Blue tint soles) Those shoes in my opinion are not authentic at all..I saw a video recently of someone who purchased a pair of Cool XI's from MentalKicks and he read out the ending production date as 12/25/2010..The shoes were officially released two days before that.. I remember because I camped out for them

Anyways, there ARE ways to tell if the shoes were pre-releases or shoes that were not the same shoe from the official release date from my experience at least. You guys should check out solesupremacy's blog as well, they know their stuff.

Overall, its going to come down to what you personally feel about the whole thing. Unless Nike comes out with a statement about what is authentic or not, we will never come to a agreement and these threads will continue to come up.

 

[sunshineblotters]

Overall, its going to come down to what you personally feel about the whole thing. Unless Nike comes out with a statement about what is authentic or not, we will never come to a agreement and these threads will continue to come up.

Again, Nike's definition of authentic would be the shoes that make them money. Authorized B-grades as well as regular old Jordans. Hell if Nike made a definition of what is and isnt authentic, secondhand shoes that were purchased from a Nike account on release date would not be included in that list Their definition would of course be biased.

 

[eltouha]

and that's kind of my point. A lot of the same places that were selling the supposed authentic early release pairs were also selling those random remakes and promo shoes. I'm not even saying that all early release shoes are going to be fake. I think it probably originated as taking extra pairs off of the production line and selling them, and that's why the shoes never used to come with the original box, but over time it turned into something else. All I'm saying is, people have posted comparison pics where different leathers, issues with shape, and different colors were used on early pairs in some cases. If we know they're capable of making shoes 3 years later, why is so hard to believe they may be mixing in these pairs with legit ones. Think about the sheer number of early release pairs that hit the market now in comparison to 5 years ago. it doesn't add up to just making a few extra pairs. We're talking about a serious operation here. If there were no differences between the pairs, how is flight club able to spot early release pairs from retail pairs without even being told? People forget that this is how this entire debate started. That guy from the concord thread bought a pair of those space jams last year and they told him they were fake as soon as he put the box on the counter.

yeah buyer beware on "Early release sites" as well as any reseller sources. it is a bit silly to be buying sj's from them now.

 

[bip roberts]

and that's kind of my point. A lot of the same places that were selling the supposed authentic early release pairs were also selling those random remakes and promo shoes. I'm not even saying that all early release shoes are going to be fake. I think it probably originated as taking extra pairs off of the production line and selling them, and that's why the shoes never used to come with the original box, but over time it turned into something else. All I'm saying is, people have posted comparison pics where different leathers, issues with shape, and different colors were used on early pairs in some cases. If we know they're capable of making shoes 3 years later, why is so hard to believe they may be mixing in these pairs with legit ones. Think about the sheer number of early release pairs that hit the market now in comparison to 5 years ago. it doesn't add up to just making a few extra pairs. We're talking about a serious operation here. If there were no differences between the pairs, how is flight club able to spot early release pairs from retail pairs without even being told? People forget that this is how this entire debate started. That guy from the concord thread bought a pair of those space jams last year and they told him they were fake as soon as he put the box on the counter.

I don't really want to sound like this, but you are pretty much the only other person in this thread with a shred of common sense regarding this issue. And, it's crazy because there are tons of people in this thread who are otherwise quite reasonable and knowledgeable.

The last issue I'll address is the receipt question. A receipt is not a requirement to know that a pair of shoes you buy on the secondary market is legit. But, it does work the other way. A receipt (presuming that wasn't forged LOL) is a proof point that the shoe is not fake. So, not having one doesn't automatically mean the shoe is fake - people lose receipts all the time. I actually try to keep most of my receipts in the shoe's box and I actually do include them when available if I sell somebody a pair. But, getting a receipt does validate the authenticity of the shoe. The receipt itself isn't the issue though, what the receipt is a proxy., a reliable predictor of something else.

And, BTW, Ninja - it's not a moral issue, it's an issue of the meaning of the term "authentic."

I've addressed every question and debunked every false analogy that people think stumps the authenticity argument. I'm done replying on this.

I'll close by saying this - anybody who thinks that the issue of brand authenticity is as simple as materials = authentic is playing checkers on a chess board. The concepts of authenticity, as it relates to branding, is a concept that has been written about extensively and explored through many angles by some of the most noted economists, sociologists, philosophers, and legal minds of the past 100 years. Academia, intellectual property law, and market behavior all point to a deeper, more nuanced concept of authenticity - one similar to that which I'm arguing. People can convince themselves of whatever view they want - either because of cognitive dissonance or because they are unwilling or unable to understand the true depths of this argument in a macro sense. But, the fact that people disagree doesn't mean this is really a debate. What it is is an inconvenient truth.

 

[ninjahood]

homie you doing a whole lot of over thinking in da situation..

its not that hard to comprehend.

if da factories are over producing these kicks on da side that already are in charge of making em when sanctioned by nike, then thats not a fake sneaker.

its unfortunate that nike cant get a handle on da people they contract to make da shoes but hey, its a part of business.

 

[italipino23]

Yeah but those unauthorized joints are slapped together son.

 

[jordan23dotcom]

Well here's another question. Based on your rational of what is fake or not, what if they took "extra parts" of shoes and put together colorways that don't exist? (Cool greys with black pat leather, ect) would they be real too?


Lord, iPhone auto text kills me lol

 

[devildog1776]

this is how i know you dont get it.

those are 2 different brands, and one is knocking off da other one. its not making "fake" polo its making a knock off "me 2"

now if i worked at a factory that made ralph lauren and sewn up my old # of shirts and sold em off to da side, then that grey market.

google why patrick ewing sued next sports back in da day, because they were making TONS and TONS of unauthorized grey market ewings

and selling em to da other markets and wasn't reporting any of those earnings to patrick ewing's management.

it doesn't mean they were fake sneakers, da company was IN CHARGE of making da ACTUAL 

RUN of ewing's sneakers, it means that da other pairs they made were unaccounted and therefore UNAUTHORIZED grey market pairs.

they just cant grasp the concept.... lol

 

[mikeyman14]

Well here's another question. Based on your rational of what if fake or not, what is they took "extra parts" of shoes and out together colorways that don't exist? (Cool greys with black pat leather, ect) would they be real too?

True. YOu guys say its cause of materials being the same but if I wanted to I could make breds with a black patent white cordura upper and according to your theory's since materials the same they're legit.

 

[ninjahood]

Yeah but those unauthorized joints are slapped together son.

so are da authorized joints in recent years, or do i have to direct you to da blunders thread?

 

[ninjahood]

Well here's another question. Based on your rational of what if fake or not, what is they took "extra parts" of shoes and out together colorways that don't exist? (Cool greys with black pat leather, ect) would they be real too?

this is exactly what you're talking about.

way back when, someone took 2 pairs of XI's (a columbia mid & columbia low) and spliced da low's patent leather on da high's uppers..does that make this sneaker

"fake"? no. did nike authorize da person to customize this sneaker? no. so imagine if he had a warehouse full of low and mid XI's and was just splicing em up and selling

em like this, would they be considered fake? no. unauthorized by nike? yes.

 

[bip roberts]

Now, you're overthinking it.

Those are just customs.

That's totally outside the discussion - it's an aftermarket modification like people do with their cars. Those are personal decisions you make with your property - at that point, that is beyond the scope of Nike's "jurisdiction" to authorize. It's an absurd strawman to assume that Nike would have to "authorize" something like that - that would be like Nike authorizing a lace swap. Once they produce a legit product and you purchase it, Nike is now out of the equation. That has nothing to do with authentic product or not. ...If you put an Integra fender on a Civic body - what do you have? You have a custom car.

This is thread is like one big contest to make the most irrelevant hypothetical and most inaccurate analogy possible.

...I know I said I was done, but this is a whole different tangent the discussion is taking now.

 

[ninjahood]

Now, you're overthinking it.

Those are just customs.

That's totally outside the discussion - it's an aftermarket modification like people do with their cars. Those are personal decisions you make with your property - at that point, that is beyond the scope of Nike's "jurisdiction" to authorize. It's an absurd strawman to assume that Nike would have to "authorize" something like that - that would be like Nike authorizing a lace swap. Once they produce a legit product and you purchase it, Nike is now out of the equation. That has nothing to do with authentic product or not. ...If you put an Integra fender on a Civic body - what do you have? You have a custom car.

This is thread is like one big contest to make the most irrelevant hypothetical and most inaccurate analogy possible.

...I know I said I was done, but this is a whole different tangent the discussion is taking now.

oh yea? are you aware that if you modified let's say a LV bag that you paid with your own money, and decided that "hey i want to be on TV with it"

and LV thought you were ruining their brand in some sort of way they would send you C&A letters about it?

son at da end of da day, if da stuff is made by nike workers REGARDLESS of what time, they're real product. its up to NIKE to handle their inventory, not us.

 

[de janeiro]

"grey market sneakers", enough said. It really depends on how you define fakes. Personally I can live with "high quality fakes" that are made from the same silhouette, in the same factory, and by the same workers as the "authorized pairs" because it doesn't really change the aesthetics or the functionality of the shoe.