Here's what to expect from Gov't Run healthcare...

Originally Posted by Dirtylicious

When did the proposed plan by Obama involve them taking over health care facilities?
as far as I'm aware of...the proposal is to have a "public option" provider....not a total revamp of medical guidelines

Originally Posted by Dirtylicious

When did the proposed plan by Obama involve them taking over health care facilities?
as far as I'm aware of...the proposal is to have a "public option" provider....not a total revamp of medical guidelines

Originally Posted by Dirtylicious

When did the proposed plan by Obama involve them taking over health care facilities?
as far as I'm aware of...[color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]the proposal is to have a "public option" provider....not a total revamp of medical guidelines[/color]

I have lost all my patience with this healthcare debate. Why is everyone so gotdamn dense. People like you OP keep us from taking this monumental step in favorfor the status quo. I am completely baffled at how anyone can even conceive defending our current health system.
 
they also scared of da competition and it will "drive em out of business"
eyes.gif
 
Originally Posted by Craftsy21

Isn't it pretty obvious there are countless Americans in need of health care?

They're just lazy - why should we have to pay for them because they can't go get a job and get their own healthcare?
grin.gif



Really? So myself being a full time student who has a part time job that doesn't provide me with healthcare. Yet I make too much to qualify for cheap 3rdparty care and it's too expensive to get the one I'm offered. And my mom can't put me under her plan yet I'm a dependent under her is toolazy? Well honestly you need to shut up and stop talking. Stop putting people who don't have healthcare in the group that is too lazy. Because there areplenty of people like me who work hard but can't get AFFORDABLE care. Key word is AFFORDABLE if you can't read or need it capitalized because youcan't pick out the important words in a sentence.

BTW I really hate wishing bad things upon people but I'd love to see someone close to you who doesn't have healthcare get some terminal disease thatcan be treated so that the person can be denied insurance because it's a pre-existing condition. Our healthcare system is flawed right now. Accept it. We should adopt either a Japanese, English, or French system. But then again we have all these capitalists who think socialism will bring on the USSR to theUnited States right? Yet we have socialistic systems already set up.
 
Originally Posted by Craftsy21

Isn't it pretty obvious there are countless Americans in need of health care?

They're just lazy - why should we have to pay for them because they can't go get a job and get their own healthcare?
grin.gif


Unfortunately that's the mentality of the Wealthy and Conservatives.

It's this mentality of "I" work so hard to make that 6-7 figure income so why should "I" have to pay more taxes to support these hoodrats with 5 kids whom smooch off the government.

Most I am betting never step foot in the inner cities nor care to. They never befriended a single mother who suffers every day from headaches and cramps andcan't get any prescription pain killers. Never see first hand how a new pair of glasses can help a 50 year old grand mother to read better. Never met a10 year old who can't chew his food without pain because he has never been to the dentist.

Millions of Americans don't have insurance and suffer every single day and these are the people Obama wants to help. I for one support him on this ideaand look forward to what he has to say tonight to Congress.
 
Originally Posted by Biggie62

Originally Posted by Craftsy21

Isn't it pretty obvious there are countless Americans in need of health care?

They're just lazy - why should we have to pay for them because they can't go get a job and get their own healthcare?
grin.gif

Really? So myself being a full time student who has a part time job that doesn't provide me with healthcare. Yet I make too much to qualify for cheap 3rd party care and it's too expensive to get the one I'm offered. And my mom can't put me under her plan yet I'm a dependent under her is too lazy? Well honestly you need to shut up and stop talking. Stop putting people who don't have healthcare in the group that is too lazy. Because there are plenty of people like me who work hard but can't get AFFORDABLE care. Key word is AFFORDABLE if you can't read or need it capitalized because you can't pick out the important words in a sentence.

BTW I really hate wishing bad things upon people but I'd love to see someone close to you who doesn't have healthcare get some terminal disease that can be treated so that the person can be denied insurance because it's a pre-existing condition. Our healthcare system is flawed right now. Accept it. We should adopt either a Japanese, English, or French system. But then again we have all these capitalists who think socialism will bring on the USSR to the United States right? Yet we have socialistic systems already set up.


Hey chief - i'm on your side. that was sarcasm, hence the smiley.
laugh.gif




It's this mentality of "I" work so hard to make that 6-7 figure income so why should "I" have to pay more taxes to support these hood rats with 5 kids whom smooch off the government.

I'd like to say it was just those rich people who were holding this back from happening, but what's actually happened in this country is this rich guyshave convinced the middle and lower classes that this plan is evil because of the world "socialism" - now you've got ******s in the streetsprotesting against their own best interests, not realizing they've been completely played.

Rich guys I can understand not wanting this to go through.. their wealth depends on other people's poverty. They will do whatever they can to keep thepoor down.

But the middle class has somehow been convinced they are closer to the rich than the poor... which is just stupid, the rich are trying to eliminate the middle,too... and it ain't by making them part of the rich.
laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted by Craftsy21

Isn't it pretty obvious there are countless Americans in need of health care?

They're just lazy - why should we have to pay for them because they can't go get a job and get their own healthcare?
grin.gif


edited
 
Originally Posted by Craftsy21

Originally Posted by Biggie62

Originally Posted by Craftsy21

Isn't it pretty obvious there are countless Americans in need of health care?

They're just lazy - why should we have to pay for them because they can't go get a job and get their own healthcare?
grin.gif

Really? So myself being a full time student who has a part time job that doesn't provide me with healthcare. Yet I make too much to qualify for cheap 3rd party care and it's too expensive to get the one I'm offered. And my mom can't put me under her plan yet I'm a dependent under her is too lazy? Well honestly you need to shut up and stop talking. Stop putting people who don't have healthcare in the group that is too lazy. Because there are plenty of people like me who work hard but can't get AFFORDABLE care. Key word is AFFORDABLE if you can't read or need it capitalized because you can't pick out the important words in a sentence.

BTW I really hate wishing bad things upon people but I'd love to see someone close to you who doesn't have healthcare get some terminal disease that can be treated so that the person can be denied insurance because it's a pre-existing condition. Our healthcare system is flawed right now. Accept it. We should adopt either a Japanese, English, or French system. But then again we have all these capitalists who think socialism will bring on the USSR to the United States right? Yet we have socialistic systems already set up.

Hey chief - i'm on your side. that was sarcasm, hence the smiley.
laugh.gif




My bad bro I just read it and got heated.
 
I really can't think of a good reason why anyone would decline health care ...even if people "THINK" its gonna be crappy health care ...itsbetter then not having any health care coverage *shrug*
 
Originally Posted by Craftsy21

It's this mentality of "I" work so hard to make that 6-7 figure income so why should "I" have to pay more taxes to support these hood rats with 5 kids whom smooch off the government.

I'd like to say it was just those rich people who were holding this back from happening, but what's actually happened in this country is this rich guys have convinced the middle and lower classes that this plan is evil because of the world "socialism" - now you've got ******s in the streets protesting against their own best interests, not realizing they've been completely played.

Rich guys I can understand not wanting this to go through.. their wealth depends on other people's poverty. They will do whatever they can to keep the poor down.

But the middle class has somehow been convinced they are closer to the rich than the poor... which is just stupid, the rich are trying to eliminate the middle, too... and it ain't by making them part of the rich.
laugh.gif


And I'm sorry for you misunderstanding but you are already supporting the hood rats with 15 children. It's called medicaid and it getstaken out of your pay check already. So whether we are rich or middle class we all support hoodrats with welfare and medicaid. Atleast now the middle classcan get good healthcare for once that couldn't afford it before.
 
Originally Posted by Biggie62

Originally Posted by Craftsy21

Isn't it pretty obvious there are countless Americans in need of health care?

They're just lazy - why should we have to pay for them because they can't go get a job and get their own healthcare?
grin.gif

Really? So myself being a full time student who has a part time job that doesn't provide me with healthcare. Yet I make too much to qualify for cheap 3rd party care and it's too expensive to get the one I'm offered. And my mom can't put me under her plan yet I'm a dependent under her is too lazy? Well honestly you need to shut up and stop talking. Stop putting people who don't have healthcare in the group that is too lazy. Because there are plenty of people like me who work hard but can't get AFFORDABLE care. Key word is AFFORDABLE if you can't read or need it capitalized because you can't pick out the important words in a sentence.

BTW I really hate wishing bad things upon people but I'd love to see someone close to you who doesn't have healthcare get some terminal disease that can be treated so that the person can be denied insurance because it's a pre-existing condition. Our healthcare system is flawed right now. Accept it. We should adopt either a Japanese, English, or French system. But then again we have all these capitalists who think socialism will bring on the USSR to the United States right? Yet we have socialistic systems already set up.



I have some questions for you: Do you have a cell phone? Do you have a TV? If so, do you have cable? How many pairs of shoes do you own? Do you have a car?Do you have Playstation or Xbox? You better be typing this from the computer lab at your school, because if you can't afford your own healthcare, howcan you afford a computer? I'm not trying to single you out, but my point is how many people who "can't afford" healthcare could afford itif they were willing to give up their LUXURIES to pay for their NEEDS. The fact is that 15% of the country does not have healthcare, of that 15%, half of themdo not have carry healthcare because they choose not to, they chose to spend their money on other things. Which means about 7.5 % of the country islegitimately without healthcare or a means to get it. So we should throw the whole system out and start over for 7% ? You're telling me there is no wayto fix the existing problems without the government stepping in and completely revamping the entire system and adding a universal public option? Thatsridiculous. The cost and consequenses of the reform by far outshadow any benefit that it may bring.
 
Dirtylicious wrote:
When did the proposed plan by Obama involve them taking over health care facilities?
as far as I'm aware of...the proposal is to have a "public option" provider....not a total revamp of medical guidelines




Exactly. The President gives this disclaimer in the most basic language possible at the beginning, middle, and end of every speech he gives on health carereform.

If you want to keep your current provider and doctors, you can. The public option is exactly that... and OPTION. As opposed to the UK and othersystems where it's mandatory since they have full government run health care because it's paid for in their taxes.
 
Originally Posted by KanyeWestJayZ4life

Originally Posted by Dirtylicious

When did the proposed plan by Obama involve them taking over health care facilities?
as far as I'm aware of...the proposal is to have a "public option" provider....not a total revamp of medical guidelines

Originally Posted by Dirtylicious

When did the proposed plan by Obama involve them taking over health care facilities?
as far as I'm aware of...the proposal is to have a "public option" provider....not a total revamp of medical guidelines

Originally Posted by Dirtylicious

When did the proposed plan by Obama involve them taking over health care facilities?
as far as I'm aware of...[color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]the proposal is to have a "public option" provider....not a total revamp of medical guidelines[/color]
 
So we should throw the whole system out and start over for 7%
explain to me how the proposal does this?
I don't get where this is coming from


fact is we already pay for the uninsured's healthcare....through unpaid emergency room visits (that the hosp eats and then gets back from the state) andthrough medicaid.
 
Originally Posted by iBlink

Dirtylicious wrote:
When did the proposed plan by Obama involve them taking over health care facilities?
as far as I'm aware of...the proposal is to have a "public option" provider....not a total revamp of medical guidelines


Exactly. The President gives this disclaimer in the most basic language possible at the beginning, middle, and end of every speech he gives on health care reform.

If you want to keep your current provider and doctors, you can. The public option is exactly that... and OPTION. As opposed to the UK and other systems where it's mandatory since they have full government run health care because it's paid for in their taxes.
Funny how the legislation doesn't seem to reflect that statement, go figure...I mean, there is no way a politician could say one thing and doanother, that NEVER happens, forgive me. So, you want me to pay for my own private healthcare, AND your public plan? So you want me to pay twice for my ownhealthcare?

The fact is the government does not have a single mark in the W column when it comes to running ANY kind of business or service. If you trust the governmentwith your healthcare, you are free to move to the UK.
 
I'd like to say it was just those rich people who were holding this back from happening, but what's actually happened in this country is this rich guys have convinced the middle and lower classes that this plan is evil because of the world "socialism" - now you've got ******s in the streets protesting against their own best interests, not realizing they've been completely played.

Rich guys I can understand not wanting this to go through.. their wealth depends on other people's poverty. They will do whatever they can to keep the poor down.

But the middle class has somehow been convinced they are closer to the rich than the poor... which is just stupid, the rich are trying to eliminate the middle, too... and it ain't by making them part of the rich.
I agree. The Republicans are using a smear campaign very similar to Karl Rove's tactics in winning Bush his second term. They smeared JohnKerry to oblivion. In 2004, the magic word for them was FLIP FLOP. In 2009, the scary word now is SOCIALISM. They used the negative Republican sentimentsurrounding Obama as momentum to smear this Public Option Bill. For example the people that are screaming on top of their lungs are screaming FALSE facts. Imean how stupid are you to be arguing on something and you don't even know the true details stated in the bill.

I'll give it the Right though because it has worked. Regardless of facts, they were able to turned this idea of a public option to a negative. The endingresult? Americans are bamboozled yet again and Obama's approval rating tumbled significantly.

And you know whose winning in all this? The Media! Media is loving every moment of this political soap opera regardless of how many lives will be affected.Great way for media outlets like Fox News to sell their product.

The fact is that 15% of the country does not have healthcare, of that 15%, half of them do not have carry healthcare because they choose not to, they chose to spend their money on other things.
15% equals to 50 million Americans. Do you know how many Americans that is? The total population in California alone is 36 million people.

Chose not to? Spend money on other things? Are you serious?

Are you saying all those people in those pictures decide they rather have a Louis Vuitton bag instead of getting health insurance like to get prescriptionglasses in order to read better? Your analogies and reasoning are out of touch with reality bro. You're making yourself look really ignant up in here.
 
Originally Posted by J Burner

Originally Posted by Biggie62

Originally Posted by Craftsy21

Isn't it pretty obvious there are countless Americans in need of health care?

They're just lazy - why should we have to pay for them because they can't go get a job and get their own healthcare?
grin.gif

Really? So myself being a full time student who has a part time job that doesn't provide me with healthcare. Yet I make too much to qualify for cheap 3rd party care and it's too expensive to get the one I'm offered. And my mom can't put me under her plan yet I'm a dependent under her is too lazy? Well honestly you need to shut up and stop talking. Stop putting people who don't have healthcare in the group that is too lazy. Because there are plenty of people like me who work hard but can't get AFFORDABLE care. Key word is AFFORDABLE if you can't read or need it capitalized because you can't pick out the important words in a sentence.

BTW I really hate wishing bad things upon people but I'd love to see someone close to you who doesn't have healthcare get some terminal disease that can be treated so that the person can be denied insurance because it's a pre-existing condition. Our healthcare system is flawed right now. Accept it. We should adopt either a Japanese, English, or French system. But then again we have all these capitalists who think socialism will bring on the USSR to the United States right? Yet we have socialistic systems already set up.


I have some questions for you: Do you have a cell phone? Do you have a TV? If so, do you have cable? How many pairs of shoes do you own? Do you have a car? Do you have Playstation or Xbox? You better be typing this from the computer lab at your school, because if you can't afford your own healthcare, how can you afford a computer? I'm not trying to single you out, but my point is how many people who "can't afford" healthcare could afford it if they were willing to give up their LUXURIES to pay for their NEEDS. The fact is that 15% of the country does not have healthcare, of that 15%, half of them do not have carry healthcare because they choose not to, they chose to spend their money on other things. Which means about 7.5 % of the country is legitimately without healthcare or a means to get it. So we should throw the whole system out and start over for 7% ? You're telling me there is no way to fix the existing problems without the government stepping in and completely revamping the entire system and adding a universal public option? Thats ridiculous. The cost and consequenses of the reform by far outshadow any benefit that it may bring.


Okay let me answer. I bought a stolen iphone for 100 bucks 2 years ago. TV I bought back in HS in 03, same with 95% of my shoes, I have no car,playstation was a gift from friends for my 21st, and my laptop I bought from money I had saved up since HS so when I go to college I could buy myself a REALLYgood laptop and it was saved when I had healthcare under my mom. Things I have are luxuries but they were bought way before I was dropped from my momshealthplan. Now tell me why a healthplan doesn't support a child that is a full dependent going to school under the parent? And my mom has a decent HMOwith Aetna. Bluecross said the same thing and so did healthfirst. Stop defending a flawed system. I understand your rationalization, but it just doesn'thold in the long run.
 
i feel for the mother.. but if this is the case for all babies born 22 weeks or younger.. why is this the first case we're hearing about? and whyaren't there exceptions? premature babies are born everyday and that includes the UK.
 
Originally Posted by iBlink

Dirtylicious wrote:
When did the proposed plan by Obama involve them taking over health care facilities?
as far as I'm aware of...the proposal is to have a "public option" provider....not a total revamp of medical guidelines


Exactly. The President gives this disclaimer in the most basic language possible at the beginning, middle, and end of every speech he gives on health care reform.

If you want to keep your current provider and doctors, you can. The public option is exactly that... and OPTION. As opposed to the UK and other systems where it's mandatory since they have full government run health care because it's paid for in their taxes.
 
Originally Posted by J Burner

Originally Posted by iBlink

Dirtylicious wrote:
When did the proposed plan by Obama involve them taking over health care facilities?
as far as I'm aware of...the proposal is to have a "public option" provider....not a total revamp of medical guidelines


Exactly. The President gives this disclaimer in the most basic language possible at the beginning, middle, and end of every speech he gives on health care reform.

If you want to keep your current provider and doctors, you can. The public option is exactly that... and OPTION. As opposed to the UK and other systems where it's mandatory since they have full government run health care because it's paid for in their taxes.
Funny how the legislation doesn't seem to reflect that statement, go figure...I mean, there is no way a politician could say one thing and do another, that NEVER happens, forgive me. So, you want me to pay for my own private healthcare, AND your public plan? So you want me to pay twice for my own healthcare?

The fact is the government does not have a single mark in the W column when it comes to running ANY kind of business or service. If you trust the government with your healthcare, you are free to move to the UK.
Unless you've read every bit of this resolution, I don't think you should make the claim of knowing what is and isn't mentioned. Ifyou have, however, anazlyzed everything within the 1000+ pages, carry on.
 
Originally Posted by Craftsy21

Isn't it pretty obvious there are countless Americans in need of health care?

They're just lazy - why should we have to pay for them because they can't go get a job and get their own healthcare?
grin.gif


1. That's a really terrible analysis of why people can't get health insurance. I guess I, the college student, am lazy because I'msupporting myself through undergrad in 3 yrs w/honors, and law school next fall and cannot afford health insurance. But that's besides the point. Even ifyour piss poor hypothesis of the variable "laziness" accounting for why people can't afford insurance hold true, you are still missing the point.I'll spell it out.
  • Insurance companies now are focusing on consumer driven plans rather than managed care plans, which results in higher and higher premiums far out pacing the rate of monetary growth (as far as for the indiv and the whole nation). Consumer driven plans are targeted towards the indiv not companies.This has resulted in just completely outrageously priced insurance for the average citizen making on average 35k.
  • In the past 10 years premiums have doubled in a much faster pace than income has.
  • Worst it, as it looks, insurance premiums are going to keep doubling over the next few years.
  • In summation less and less employers are offering their employees insurance.
  • Keep in mind over 70% of americans make less than 50k a year and the average household member makes $24,000 per house hold member.
  • The average family income is around 47,000 with 10,728. being the average spend per families spend yearly on health insurance.
  • Using the conservative measure of "affordability" of insurance = spending less than 11%(i think) of income on insurance, insurance is hardly affordable currently at 22% (average spent per fam/ average family income) being spent on healthcare.
2. The most understated issue about reform is not the people who do not have insurance but rather the people with insurance.
  • Do you know the number one cause of bankruptcy? That's right, medical bills. Alaraming right?
  • What's even more alarming is 80% of those who have filed for bankruptcy because of medical bills had insurance at the time of the bankrupting illness.
  • How can this be you ask? Well...its pretty easy. Insurance companies have every incentive to cancel your contract and not pay the $20,000 bill for an ambulance right and doctor treatment. That is why more than 1 out of every 5 claims filed by insured people are dropped.
  • Droppage or rescissions could be reasons like, "pre-existing conditions such as cancer, asthma...list goes on and on. Or something like, nothing notifying the insurance company you bumped your knee when you were 5 on the playground...literally the reasons are that trivial.
3. The Public Option would finally provide competition in order to lower costs. I'm really far to lazy to go in debt on this point now.

In summation, the status quo is plain unsustainable. Insurance is unafforable to over the majority of americans. Even those with insurance, aren'tprotected. Public Plan is simply a way of keeping the other insurance companies safer. You trust your goverment to run a war, post office, pave roads, publicsafety, and yet when it comes to your health you'd rather trust private business sharks who are looking to maximize profits? Makes no sense to me.
 
Chose not to? Spend money on other things? Are you serious?
Are you? I didn't make it up. Are you telling me that there is noone out there without healthcare simply because they didn't feel likepaying for it? True story, my boy just paid $15,000 cash for his new car. Does he have healthcare? Nope. Can he afford it? He could have, before he spenthis entire bank account on a car.

Are you saying all those people in those pictures decide they rather have a Louis Vuitton bag instead of getting health insurance like to get prescription glasses in order to read better?



Funny you should mention that



And I didn't say ALL, but about half could afford it if they were willing to sacrifice some luxury. How many of those people drove there in their owncars? So, it comes down to whats more important to you, healthcare, or a brand new car or HDTV. Many people chose the car or the TV. Thats all I'msaying, and you're telling me thats not true?
Now tell me why a healthplan doesn't support a child that is a full dependent going to school under the parent? And my mom has a decent HMO with Aetna. Bluecross said the same thing and so did healthfirst. Stop defending a flawed system. I understand your rationalization, but it just doesn't hold in the long run.

Couldn't tell you, my parents had Aetna when I was in college and did not have this problem.
 
Originally Posted by Craftsy21

Cool, i can play this game too OP.


[h1][/h1]
[h1]The failure of U.S. healthcare[/h1]
February 28, 2009 in Medical Industrial Complex, Myths & Truths | 2 comments

failure.png
The U.S. spent 16 percent of its Gross Domestic Product (GDP) - a cool $2 trillion - on health care in 2005.[sup]1[/sup] Considering this enormous expenditure, we should have the best medicine in the world. We should be reversing disease, preventing disease, and doing minimal harm. However, careful and objective review shows the opposite.

The U.S. ranks just 34th in the world in life expectancy and 29th for infant mortality. Of 13 countries in a recent comparison, the United States ranks an average of 12th (second from bottom) for 16 available health indicators.[sup]2[/sup]

40 million people in this country do not have health insurance. The exorbitant cost of health care seems to be tolerated based on the assumption that better health results from more expensive care, despite studies that as many as 20% to 30% of patients receive contraindicated care.[sup]3[/sup]

Even worse, a recent study by Dr. Barbara Starfield published in 2000 in the prestigious Journal of the American Medical Association demonstrated that iatrogenic incidents (events caused by medical intervention) are the 3rd leading cause of death in this country, causing more than 250,000 deaths per year. Only heart disease and cancer kill more people.

Dr. Starfield estimates that, each year, medical errors and adverse effects of the health care system are responsible for:
  • 116 million extra physician visits
  • 77 million extra prescriptions
  • 17 million emergency department visits
  • 8 million hospitalizations
  • 3 million long-term admissions
  • 199,000 additional deaths
  • $77 billion in extra costs
As grim as they are, these statistics are likely to be seriously underestimated as only about 5 to 20% of iatrogenic incidents are even recorded[sup]4[/sup], and outpatient iatrogenic statistics only include drug-related events and not surgical cases, diagnostic errors, or therapeutic mishaps[sup]5[/sup] . Other analyses which have taken these oversights into consideration estimate that medical care is in fact the leading cause of death in the U.S. each year.

Starfield believes that a major contributor to the poor performance of the United States on health indicators is the high degree of income inequality in this country. Countless studies in the medical literature document the adverse effects of low socioeconomic position on health. New research suggests the adverse effects not only of low social position but, especially, low relative social position in industrialized countries.[sup]6[/sup]

Perhaps the words "health care" have given us the illusion that medicine is about health. In fact, western medicine is not a purveyor of healthcare but of disease-care. When the number one killer in a society is the health care system, that system has no excuse except to address its own urgent shortcomings. Unfortunately, until this happens partaking in allopathic medicine itself is one of the highest causes of death as well as one of the most expensive ways to die.


Just STOP it.
tired.gif



Game, set and match
 
Couldn't tell you, my parents had Aetna when I was in college and did not have this problem.
That's exactly the issue here. You don't experience this problem, so therefore, you don't perceive it as a problem. That's thearrogant ignorance we're dealing with in trying to get this bill passed.. people assume that because they have health insurance that everybody should beable to get it if they really wanted to.
 
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