Here's what to expect from Gov't Run healthcare...

[juice2352]

Originally Posted by southzeztpdot

hmm lets use one isolated incident to define an entire program. Good job OP you have a bright future ahead of you

Originally Posted by Craftsy21

Cool - you pulled up a bad example of how their system works, that's not anecdotal evidence or anything.


How about pulling up all the currents failures of the system we have in place now? Don't think people have needlessly died here as a result?

How about showing the positives of both?

Quit with this smear campaign already

^^^Exactly my sentiments. It's not like the government arbitrarily decided, "let's not offer medical care before 22 weeks." Itwasn't even their call. "The rules were endorsed by the British Association of Perinatal Medicine." Medical expert opinions WERE used in these policies...it'd be a cop out to blame the government.

 

[jdb1523]

If some of you guys on here supporting this program have all the answers, then why are there Democrats in the House STILL holding this thing up?

This has been a program that has been discussed for YEARS only to be shot down. It WILL NOT pass as-is, and Obama knows this.

And for the record, if we want to cut the cost of healthcare to make it affordable for more Americans, we need TORT REFORM. End of story.

 

[craftsy21]

Originally Posted by JDB1523

If some of you guys on here supporting this program have all the answers, then why are there Democrats in the House STILL holding this thing up?

This has been a program that has been discussed for YEARS only to be shot down. It WILL NOT pass as-is, and Obama knows this.

And for the record, if we want to cut the cost of healthcare to make it affordable for more Americans, we need TORT REFORM. End of story.

I definitely don't have all the answers... but i can't see how a civilized, extremely wealthy nation can't provide healtcare for every man, womanand child in a reasonably organized fashion. even if it's only done in the name of preventing pandemics or whatever. However it has to get done, it has toget done. Medicine in general is broken - it's supposed to be about saving lives and instead it's about the almighty dollar. Conservatives talk aboutour country being morally bankrupt but can't even find it in themselves to push for healthcare reform, given the completely broken, corrupt nature of thecurrent system. It's a %%%*@*% joke.

 

[j burner]

Originally Posted by JDB1523

If some of you guys on here supporting this program have all the answers, then why are there Democrats in the House STILL holding this thing up?

This has been a program that has been discussed for YEARS only to be shot down. It WILL NOT pass as-is, and Obama knows this.

And for the record, if we want to cut the cost of healthcare to make it affordable for more Americans, we need TORT REFORM. End of story.

Yep, but I'm pretty sure all these people jumping on board for reform don't even know the definition of tort, much less understand how itaffects the cost of insurance.

 

[kanyewestjayz4life]

Originally Posted by J Burner

Originally Posted by iBlink

Dirtylicious wrote:

---

When did the proposed plan by Obama involve them taking over health care facilities?
as far as I'm aware of...the proposal is to have a "public option" provider....not a total revamp of medical guidelines

Exactly. The President gives this disclaimer in the most basic language possible at the beginning, middle, and end of every speech he gives on health care reform.

If you want to keep your current provider and doctors, you can. The public option is exactly that... and OPTION. As opposed to the UK and other systems where it's mandatory since they have full government run health care because it's paid for in their taxes.

Funny how the legislation doesn't seem to reflect that statement, go figure...I mean, there is no way a politician could say one thing and do another, that NEVER happens, forgive me. So, you want me to pay for my own private healthcare, AND your public plan? So you want me to pay twice for my own healthcare?



So you just admitted that the Public Option is just that, AN OPTION. How do you retain any credibilty with your orginial post after know we know that you areaware people have the option of choosing it?

If in a full year, this Public Plan makes you pay over $600 dollars more yearly on taxes, I will personally pay pal you the difference.

The fact is the government does not have a single mark in the W column when it comes to running ANY kind of business or service. If you trust the government with your healthcare, you are free to move to the UK.
Um....can we take a second to think of every service provided by the government? Clean Water, Social Security, infrastructure, electricity, wastedisposal, MEDICARE. MEDICARE. MEDICARE

Show me any proof that medicare is less efficient or cost effective than private insurances to both the taxpayers and the people being insured.

Yes, people complain about medicare all the time but complaining about it, is different from wanting to do without it, which I don't think any electedofficials constituients would allow for the end of Medicare.

Just ask your conservatives, who ironically now, emphasis the importance of medicare in their misleading argument that the Public Option will draw funds awayfrom medicare resulting in rationed care for seniors...yeah the same conservatives who voted to cut medicare funds a few months ago.

 

[hovkid]

Originally Posted by J Burner

Chose not to? Spend money on other things? Are you serious?

Are you? I didn't make it up. Are you telling me that there is noone out there without healthcare simply because they didn't feel like paying for it? True story, my boy just paid $15,000 cash for his new car. Does he have healthcare? Nope. Can he afford it? He could have, before he spent his entire bank account on a car.

Are you saying all those people in those pictures decide they rather have a Louis Vuitton bag instead of getting health insurance like to get prescription glasses in order to read better?



Funny you should mention that



And I didn't say ALL, but about half could afford it if they were willing to sacrifice some luxury. How many of those people drove there in their own cars? So, it comes down to whats more important to you, healthcare, or a brand new car or HDTV. Many people chose the car or the TV. Thats all I'm saying, and you're telling me thats not true?



Might as well check out yo boy in those Jordan XII's as well. I KNOW I should not be paying for some dude to wear Jordans.

 

[deuce king]

Unfortunately that's the mentality of the Wealthy and Conservatives.

It's this mentality of "I" work so hard to make that 6-7 figure income so why should "I" have to pay more taxes to support these hood rats with 5 kids whom smooch off the government.

Most I am betting never step foot in the inner cities nor care to. They never befriended a single mother who suffers every day from headaches and cramps and can't get any prescription pain killers. Never see first hand how a new pair of glasses can help a 50 year old grand mother to read better. Never met a 10 year old who can't chew his food without pain because he has never been to the dentist.

Millions of Americans don't have insurance and suffer every single day and these are the people Obama wants to help. I for one support him on this idea and look forward to what he has to say tonight to Congress.



Realist post I read today.

 

[j burner]

Originally Posted by Craftsy21

I definitely don't have all the answers... but i can't see how a civilized, extremely wealthy nation can't provide healtcare for every man, woman and child in a reasonably organized fashion. even if it's only done in the name of preventing pandemics or whatever. However it has to get done, it has to get done. Medicine in general is broken - it's supposed to be about saving lives and instead it's about the almighty dollar. Conservatives talk about our country being morally bankrupt but can't even find it in themselves to push for healthcare reform, given the completely broken, corrupt nature of the current system. It's a %%%*@*% joke.

Nobody said conservatives weren't for reforming and fixing the CURRENT SYSTEM. We just do not agree with the way Obama and the exterme left of theDemocratic party are going about it. You think people in Canada and the UK aren't complaining about their healthcare? They are ready to get rid of theiruniversal healthcare, and here we are trying to start our own version, talking about how good they have it. Brilliant. When was the last time you heard ofsomeone flying to England, or Canada for treatment because they couldn't get it here in the US? Its a fact that people from countries with universalhealthcare come here for treatment because they simply do not have the time to wait for their gov't to approve treatment..

 

[kanyewestjayz4life]

Originally Posted by J Burner

Originally Posted by Craftsy21

I definitely don't have all the answers... but i can't see how a civilized, extremely wealthy nation can't provide healtcare for every man, woman and child in a reasonably organized fashion. even if it's only done in the name of preventing pandemics or whatever. However it has to get done, it has to get done. Medicine in general is broken - it's supposed to be about saving lives and instead it's about the almighty dollar. Conservatives talk about our country being morally bankrupt but can't even find it in themselves to push for healthcare reform, given the completely broken, corrupt nature of the current system. It's a %%%*@*% joke.

Nobody said conservatives weren't for reforming and fixing the CURRENT SYSTEM. We just do not agree with the way Obama and the exterme left of the Democratic party are going about it. You think people in Canada and the UK aren't complaining about their healthcare? They are ready to get rid of their universal healthcare, and here we are trying to start our own version, talking about how good they have it. Brilliant. When was the last time you heard of someone flying to England, or Canada for treatment because they couldn't get it here in the US? Its a fact that people from countries with universal healthcare come here for treatment because they simply do not have the time to wait for their gov't to approve treatment..

J BURNER. OBAMA'S PUBLIC OPTION =/= CANADA AND UK
J BURNER. OBAMA'S PUBLIC OPTION =/= CANADA AND UK
J BURNER. OBAMA'S PUBLIC OPTION =/= CANADA AND UK
J BURNER. OBAMA'S PUBLIC OPTION =/= CANADA AND UK
J BURNER. OBAMA'S PUBLIC OPTION =/= CANADA AND UK
J BURNER. OBAMA'S PUBLIC OPTION =/= CANADA AND UK
J BURNER. OBAMA'S PUBLIC OPTION =/= CANADA AND UK





Now that that is establish, I want you to substantiate your claim that any slight majority of people in the UK and Canada are trying to get rid of theiruniversal health care.

Please, just present one piece of evidence that states any collective representation of the populations of these countries want to get rid of their universalinsurance.

For the love of God, I just want the conservative base to make any attempt to substantiate this claim.

Also, one anecdotal story is not a collective representation because we can play that game all day.

 

[kix4kix]

I usually agree with you Burner but that isn't a US policy, nor would it be.

 

[craftsy21]

Originally Posted by KanyeWestJayZ4life

Originally Posted by J Burner

Originally Posted by Craftsy21

I definitely don't have all the answers... but i can't see how a civilized, extremely wealthy nation can't provide healtcare for every man, woman and child in a reasonably organized fashion. even if it's only done in the name of preventing pandemics or whatever. However it has to get done, it has to get done. Medicine in general is broken - it's supposed to be about saving lives and instead it's about the almighty dollar. Conservatives talk about our country being morally bankrupt but can't even find it in themselves to push for healthcare reform, given the completely broken, corrupt nature of the current system. It's a %%%*@*% joke.

Nobody said conservatives weren't for reforming and fixing the CURRENT SYSTEM. We just do not agree with the way Obama and the exterme left of the Democratic party are going about it. You think people in Canada and the UK aren't complaining about their healthcare? They are ready to get rid of their universal healthcare, and here we are trying to start our own version, talking about how good they have it. Brilliant. When was the last time you heard of someone flying to England, or Canada for treatment because they couldn't get it here in the US? Its a fact that people from countries with universal healthcare come here for treatment because they simply do not have the time to wait for their gov't to approve treatment..

J BURNER. OBAMA'S PUBLIC OPTION =/= CANADA AND UK
J BURNER. OBAMA'S PUBLIC OPTION =/= CANADA AND UK
J BURNER. OBAMA'S PUBLIC OPTION =/= CANADA AND UK
J BURNER. OBAMA'S PUBLIC OPTION =/= CANADA AND UK
J BURNER. OBAMA'S PUBLIC OPTION =/= CANADA AND UK
J BURNER. OBAMA'S PUBLIC OPTION =/= CANADA AND UK
J BURNER. OBAMA'S PUBLIC OPTION =/= CANADA AND UK





Now that that is establish, I want you to substantiate your claim that any slight majority of people in the UK and Canada are trying to get rid of their universal health care.

Please, just present one piece of evidence that states any collective representation of the populations of these countries want to get rid of their universal insurance.

For the love of God, I just want the conservative base to make any attempt to substantiate this claim.

Also, one anecdotal story is not a collective representation because we can play that game all day.



he's not going to provide this stuff. dude ducks all the tough questions because his GOP-nutrider handbook doesn't provide standard answers for thistype of thing, and he doesn't actually think for himself.

 

[duba169]

Originally Posted by J Burner

Originally Posted by JDB1523

If some of you guys on here supporting this program have all the answers, then why are there Democrats in the House STILL holding this thing up?

This has been a program that has been discussed for YEARS only to be shot down. It WILL NOT pass as-is, and Obama knows this.

And for the record, if we want to cut the cost of healthcare to make it affordable for more Americans, we need TORT REFORM. End of story.

Yep, but I'm pretty sure all these people jumping on board for reform don't even know the definition of tort, much less understand how it affects the cost of insurance.

WHERE IS YOUR PLAN?

Oh wait, you think things are fine as is. It's so sad, republicans used to be sensible and educated with differing ideas. Now their just, i don't evenknow what. All you do is impede progress. You can only shout NO NO NO for so long without offering a plan!

And you better not believe all those polls. The republican party is turning independents into democrats just out of spite.

 

[duba169]

Originally Posted by DubA169

Originally Posted by J Burner

Originally Posted by JDB1523

If some of you guys on here supporting this program have all the answers, then why are there Democrats in the House STILL holding this thing up?

This has been a program that has been discussed for YEARS only to be shot down. It WILL NOT pass as-is, and Obama knows this.

And for the record, if we want to cut the cost of healthcare to make it affordable for more Americans, we need TORT REFORM. End of story.

Yep, but I'm pretty sure all these people jumping on board for reform don't even know the definition of tort, much less understand how it affects the cost of insurance.

you're such a smug piece of %%$*

WHERE IS YOUR PLAN?

Oh wait, you think things are fine as is. It's so sad, republicans used to be sensible and educated with differing ideas. Now their just, i don't even know what. All you do is impede progress. You can only shout NO NO NO for so long without offering a plan!

And you better not believe all those polls. The republican party is turning independents into democrats just out of spite.

just so you don't miss the big letters

 

[13saldana13]

Originally Posted by NationalTruckerDave

That's a long read.

I'm sitting here enjoying the discussion and you say this? There's a time and place for everything, but if i'm reading a nice discussion/ argumentIt is annoying to read comments like yours. You add nothing to the discussion and no lulz either.

As for the discussion, I'll hold my thoughts because I hate speaking without knowing. I will add that I'm an illegal mexican and that I don't havehealthcare.my parents can't afford health insurance for my little bro or me. My dad is insured by his work, but even when him and my mom were together theycouldn't afford healthcare for our family.

I can afford my own healthcare now (I'm 1, but I don't have any. I won't lie, I buy a lot of luxeries and stuff I don't need, but I will buyhealtth insurance one day. If I get sick or if I'm in an accident then I know i'l have to face the consequences.

When I was younger though it would suck when I got sick. I remember I woke up one time in the middle of the night with horrible stomach pains and only when mymom saw that it was truly an emergency did she get take me. I think it cost about 3000. I've also suffered of chronic bronchits, my brother used to getreally sick every winter and my mom has had health problems since she was young. It adds up and we pay for it in full as of late, my mom says she no longer isbeing accepted for assisted payments. Btw the money that was given to help pay for the hospital bills helped, but it's not alot.

I know i'm illegal, that's a different discussion ,but I bet there's americans who have gone through the same thing. This reform though won'tcover illegals, but they can't be denied healthcare at an emergency room because of some bill that was passed several decades ago.

Nowadays I stay healthy and read a large amount about health, diseases, illnesses, etc. I would recommend the same to all, just don't read in to it alotyou dn't want to become a hipochondriac (sp).

 

[kanyewestjayz4life]

^If he really wanted to have in intellectual conversation about this he would have addressed my post (reply 45) where I, as thoroughly as I could in 5 mins,detailed and provided information for why we NEED reform.

 

[chickhien]

have we established yet that obamacare isnt a complete overhaul of the current insurance system? im still not sure if this point has been made clear. ive seenit in bold and enlarged quite a few times in this thread, but i dont think it's working.

 

[jdb1523]

Craftsy: I agree with you that medicine is unfortunately all about money, but I don't support a public/governmental option unless there's TORT reform.My dad is a general surgeon, my mom a nurse and I've grown up listening to a million different things at the dinner table. There's A LOT going on inhealthcare guys, it can't and doesn't come down to ONE aspect. Unfortunately insurance companies are the staple of healthcare in the US, and that'sreally the bottom line. However, there are things to be said about: the cost of technology, people taking responsibility for their health, and TORT reform.

And for those that don't know or are interested, TORT reform is essentially a legal reform system in how easily patients can sue doctors. Obama's planis to challenge health insurers on the basis of cost, which is fine and which needs to be done, but when doctors run 2 tests instead of 4 to cut costs, and thepatient sues for malpractice, Obama currently has no intentions of reforming the system in which doctors are sued. Basically, cutting hospital costs STILLleaves doctors way too vulnerable to be sued for malpractice, which can lead to huge settlements, which is insurance companies' main justification for hugecosts. Cutting TORT reform costs would INSTANTLY cut your health insurance.

I'm 100% serious: you guys want a public option, write your Congressman about TORT reform. I enjoy our current system in a lot of ways, my family and Ilive comfortably, but the insurance companies need to be challenged, and supporters and detractors of Obama need to realize that in order to "reform"healthcare.

PM me or quote me if you guys have any questions from, essentially, an "insider"

 

[craftsy21]

I agree entirely about tort reform, that's been an issue for the last 3 presidents and nobody has really gotten it under control.

I still don't think that would solve all our problems - that kind of thinking assumes that the problems in this world are all on patients and there trulyis very little malpractice out there, when in fact there is a TON of it... now that's a bit of a chicken or the egg argument, but the fact remains, tortreform alone is only part of the problem.

A large part, but not nearly the entire picture.

 

[julius wrek]

Hey_

Damn.

J Burner doin' Marley a serious disservice.

Julius F. Wrek

 

[j burner]

KanyeWestJayZ4life wrote:

---

Um....can we take a second to think of every service provided by the government? Clean Water, Social Security, infrastructure, electricity, waste disposal, MEDICARE. MEDICARE. MEDICARE


Um...can we take a second to know what we're talking about before posting?

Water - Your clean water comes from your COUNTY, not the Federal Government. L # 1

Social Security - Are you serious

If ever there was a system touse as an example of Federal Gov't failure, its SS. L # 2

Infrastructure? What infrastructure are you talking about? The infrastructure for what? Be more specific.

Electricity - Your electricity comes from your STATE, not the FED. L # 3

Waste Disposal - Yet again, run by your LOCAL STATE AND COUNTY GOV'T. NOT THE FED. L # 4

Medicare -

You would be the first person I've EVER spoken to that tells memedicaid is run efficiently and properly. There is no way you are going to justify the government running healthcare by telling me they did a good job withmedicaid. L # 5

Just ask your conservatives, who ironically now, emphasis the importance of medicare in their misleading argument that the Public Option will draw funds away from medicare resulting in rationed care for seniors...yeah the same conservatives who voted to cut medicare funds a few months ago.
Funny, because the same liberal Dems who pissed, moaned, shouted and vilified conservatives for wanting to cut medicare funds, are now all for itif . So the point in them pointing that out is to draw attention to the fact that liberals were up in arms when Bush wanted to cut the funding, but now thatObama wants to, it doesn't seem to be a problem. There is a word that begins with "H" thats right on the tip of my tongue.....

 

[harlemkickdiva]

Originally Posted by Craftsy21

Couldn't tell you, my parents had Aetna when I was in college and did not have this problem.

That's exactly the issue here. You don't experience this problem, so therefore, you don't perceive it as a problem. That's the arrogant ignorance we're dealing with in trying to get this bill passed.. people assume that because they have health insurance that everybody should be able to get it if they really wanted to.

AGREED!!!!

I got dropped from my moms insurance because in my state you get dropped when you're 21. My dad is on social security/disability and I got dropped fromthat when I was 18.

So, what do you OP propose when a college student (has a work study job) in Maryland can't apply for MD insurance because she's not resident there...

And can't apply for insurance in NY because according to state guidelines she has no income?

Just because people are uninsured doesn't mean we asked to be or we did something to ourselves....

 

[craftsy21]

Medicare - You would be the first person I've EVER spoken to that tells me medicaid is run efficiently and properly. There is no way you are going to justify the government running healthcare by telling me they did a good job with medicaid. L # 5
there are advocacy groups out there who know a LOT more about this issue than you and i combined, who would say medicare is a great example of agovernment run program. again, just because you hear (anecdotal) horror stories and the numbers don't always look great doesn't mean it's not ahuge improvement over many other solutions, including our current system. Social Security worked until recently.. didn't see you complaining about it thelast 50 years... the world changes, believe it or not. Nothing is permanent. And i highly doubt you'd be screaming any less about healthcare being providedby local government than you would federal... you're just making excuses at this point because you don't have real answers, like everyone here knows bynow.

 

[sundoobie]

Originally Posted by HOVKid

Originally Posted by J Burner

Chose not to? Spend money on other things? Are you serious?

Are you? I didn't make it up. Are you telling me that there is noone out there without healthcare simply because they didn't feel like paying for it? True story, my boy just paid $15,000 cash for his new car. Does he have healthcare? Nope. Can he afford it? He could have, before he spent his entire bank account on a car.

Are you saying all those people in those pictures decide they rather have a Louis Vuitton bag instead of getting health insurance like to get prescription glasses in order to read better?

Funny you should mention that



And I didn't say ALL, but about half could afford it if they were willing to sacrifice some luxury. How many of those people drove there in their own cars? So, it comes down to whats more important to you, healthcare, or a brand new car or HDTV. Many people chose the car or the TV. Thats all I'm saying, and you're telling me thats not true?



Might as well check out yo boy in those Jordan XII's as well. I KNOW I should not be paying for some dude to wear Jordans.

Good catch but how do you know they are not FAKES? Lasttime I went to the Gardena swap meet, some dude was selling fake Jays, Chanel bags, and Vuitton wallets from the trunk of his ride.

And yah I can't deny that a whole lot of people have bad impulses and purchase things that they don't need. A brand new HDTV or pay $250 a month onhealth insurance that you may or may not need. What do you think an average person like your boy would rather spend their money on? Like you mention NOT ALLfall into this category. Some work hard every single day but just can't afford health insurance for their family. So regardless, the premise of thisPublic Option debate is still based on that simple concept of helping these people get health insurance to live a better life.

 

[craftsy21]

[h1][/h1]

[h1] Majority of Americans Believe Health Care Reform 'Myths'[/h1]
LiveScience Staff

LiveScience.comMon Aug 24, 5:05 pm ET

More than 50 percent of Americans believe a public insurance option will increase health care costs, according to a new survey on assertions the White House has called myths.

The national survey, conducted from Aug. 14 - 18, involved a random sample of 600 Americans aged 18 and older living in the 48 contiguous states and Washington, D.C. Respondents indicated whether or not they believed 19 claims about health care reform, each of which is considered a myth by the White House.

The results could speak to the current partisan debate on a proposed health care overhaul. While overall the majority of Americans said they believe many of the assertions, more Republicans and Independents than Democrats stood by the claims.

"It's perhaps not surprising that more Republicans believe these things than Democrats," said study scientist Dr. Aaron Carroll, director of Indiana University's Center for Health Policy and Professionalism Research. "What is surprising is just how many Republicans - and Independents - believe them. If the White House hopes to convince the majority of Americans that they are misinformed about health care reform, there is much work to be done."

Among the results on items the White House considers myths:

• 67 percent of respondents believe that wait times for health care services, such as surgery, will increase (91 percent of Republicans, 37 percent of Democrats, 72 percent of Independents).
• About five out of 10 believe the federal government will become directly involved in making personal health care decisions (80 percent of Republicans, 25 percent of Democrats, 56 percent of Independents).
• Roughly six out of 10 Americans believe taxpayers will be required to pay for abortions (78 percent of Republicans, 30 percent of Democrats, 58 percent of Independents)
• 46 percent believe reforms will result in health care coverage for all illegal immigrants (66 percent of Republicans, 29 percent of Democrats, 43 percent of Independents).
• 54 percent believe the public option will increase premiums for Americans with private health insurance (78 percent of Republicans, 28 percent of Democrats, 58 percent of Independents).
• Five out of 10 think cuts will be made to Medicare in order to cover more Americans (66 percent of Republicans, 37 percent of Democrats, 44 percent of Independents).

There were exceptions.

Fewer participants believe "myths" regarding the impact of proposed changes on current health insurance coverage. For instance, less than 30 percent think private insurance coverage will be eliminated. And just 36 percent think a public insurance option will put private insurance companies out of business.

In addition, only three out of 10 respondents believe the government will require the elderly to make decisions about how and when they will die.

gee... wonder where all the republicans are getting this information from?

 

[boys noize]

Whoever mentioned that we are already paying for those without healthcare hit the bullseye. Why not treat and diagnose problems in people early, as opposed tolater when their conditions are worse? It's coming out of our pockets regardless. I've personally never gone without healthcare because my parents bothmade enough to provide for everyone in our household and I'm now in the fortunate position to receive some of the cheapest healthcare due to my work. Withthat being said, I understand there are people out there that can't afford healthcare, who aren't in the fortunate position I'm in, and NEED it.Something needs to be done.