- Aug 21, 2005
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Houston Rockets Thread 2024/2025 - NBA DraftTime, Sheppard On Deck
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by Peep Game,
- Start date
- Jun 14, 2013
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Either an eloquent troll job or they done found Harden's mom's burner on Twitter. Na this is crazy, y'all should go check the tweets. It really sounds like Tilman ****** everything up, which I don't put it past him at all
- Jun 9, 2020
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I’m talking about the Durant version warriors, and y’all know that, but it’s easier to be dismissive and post emojis.
The only true chance the rockets had was 2017-2018 but Chris Paul got hurt. No other version of the rockets was getting past Golden State with Steph Klay and Dray. As good as Harden is, he wasn’t getting past that team with banged up Chris Paul and Eric Gordon as his 2nd and 3rd option. If that’s your indictment against him, we’ll just agree to disagree.
imo, the biggest issue is we’ve had the last few years is Tilman hamstringing Daryl and cutting costs.
The only true chance the rockets had was 2017-2018 but Chris Paul got hurt. No other version of the rockets was getting past Golden State with Steph Klay and Dray. As good as Harden is, he wasn’t getting past that team with banged up Chris Paul and Eric Gordon as his 2nd and 3rd option. If that’s your indictment against him, we’ll just agree to disagree.
imo, the biggest issue is we’ve had the last few years is Tilman hamstringing Daryl and cutting costs.
- May 10, 2013
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Again, the rockets were up going into the 4th or late in both those games without CP3. Not sure why that’s being ignored. They were in position to win and couldn’t close. That’s where the 0-20 something 3 point streak began and an adjustment wasn’t made. Even though coaching should have made an adjustment, your star player should know when he’s cold and make the adjustment.
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- Jun 1, 2011
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I wouldn’t be shocked if this was true, cause it’s been known that the ‘Will J’ account on twitter is a Bill O’Brien burner. Everything lined up too perfectly for that not to be it.
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- Jun 9, 2020
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did you expect Harden, Gordon, Ariza, and Tucker to beat Steph, Klay, Dray, and KD? Bless your heart.
- Apr 28, 2020
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FACTS. Thank you.
- May 10, 2013
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that’s your rebuttal? You’re deflecting. Again, they were up 3-2 and had the lead going into the 4th or late in the game in BOTH games. Are you are Harden’s payroll? Star player was bricking 3s with a lead in close out games and couldn’t make the adjustment to possibly drive or go mid range? Bless your heart. Thought you were better than that.
- Jun 9, 2020
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they lead at half of both games, not going into the fourth.
in any event, if your argument is that Harden is to blame for losing those 2 games because we led at half but didn’t close out, then I respectfully disagree. The series ended when we lost Paul because, imo, it became Harden/EG/Tucker/Ariza vs Steph/Klay/Dray/KD and one of those groupings is exponentially better than the other. A heavy underdog losing a game is not an indictment against the underdog’s best player imo.
- Jun 1, 2011
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Though this is true in the general sense, we all know that specific game was much more nuanced than that. They were launching those 3s cause they weren’t getting any calls in the paint that the Warriors were terribly getting every time on the other end. That doesn’t even include the two Harden 4 point plays that were wiped out by the refs, including one where Klay undercut him on the same type of play that Bogut did on Kawhi.
Regardless, Harden shouldn’t be in a Rockets in the near future, but shouldn’t at all rush on the first deal. It should be King’s ransom style, and whatever benefits the team most. So if Morey wants to give up Simmons, Thybulle, and a bunch of picks to continue that relationship, go right ahead.
Also, to show how bad the optics are for how Harden is dealing with this, a good number of media outlets are actually saying positive things about the Rockets and making sense about it. The media has done that in ages, and Harden being 100% gone should continue that trend.
- May 10, 2013
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I completely get this, but to continue jacking up threes when you clearly see you’re cold from the arc is nonsensical. Now I don’t put all that on James. That’s on coaching and not making an adjustments. But James isn’t an idiot. He has a high enough basketball IQ to know to make an adjustment. That’s just seems like stubbornness.
Side note - Woj talking on SVP just now word for word, “James has gotten virtually everything he’s asked for in his time there. Everything was designed around him. And so he’s always been able to get what he wants with that Rockets organization.” But I was told that wasn’t the case today.
- Aug 21, 2005
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- Jun 9, 2020
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this is what I’m talking about. I think it’s pretty clear. Insinuating I’m trolling or related to harden just because we disagree on allocation of blame for the last 3-4 seasons is pretty weak.
in the first 2 years the Warriors had KD, they went 32-6 in the playoffs. 3 of those losses are to Houston. Blaming harden for not beating a team that literally no one could beat doesn’t make sense to me, especially considering that a harden led team is the only one that gave GSW any semblance of competition.
- Feb 9, 2009
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Say what you want about 2018 but 2019 was huge HUGE failure. It isn’t talked about enough.
- Jun 9, 2020
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i don’t entirely disagree, but I don’t think it’s as this egregious failure some make it out to be. It’s not like KD sat the whole series. He missed 1 quarter in game 5 and sat game 6.
Going back to what I raised earlier, the bigger issue in 2019 was Tilman cutting costs and not letting Morey get us into the luxury tax to improve the team. Resulted in our bench minutes being Austin Rivers, Gerald Green, Iman Shumpert, and Kenneth Faried. Adding in CPs steep decline to the massive turnover, that team was doomed.
- Feb 9, 2009
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At bare minimum that series should’ve went back to the Bay for Game 7 and you lose
because the the 2 best guys on the team are being babies.
because the the 2 best guys on the team are being babies.
- Jun 9, 2020
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Agree we should’ve forced a game 7 but also think we could’ve won in 6 if Chris Paul just showed up. He averaged 15/6 on 39/27/77 in games 1-5 and couldn’t get by Kevon Looney or Jonas Jerebko while also making 40+ million dollars. It’s even more frustrating because each game was decided by between 4-6 points. That’s why I disagree when people pin that series on Harden like 1) it isn’t a team game, 2) his second best player was AWOL, and 3) steph/klay/Dray/KD are just much better than harden/Paul/Gordon/Tucker.
- Jun 14, 2013
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That Shumpert mention just made me remember how garbage that trade was because our dumbass owner was trying to cut costs.
IIRC it was something like Ryno + Melton for Knight and Chriss, and then we flipped that PLUS picks for Shumpert.
I didn't agree with paying Ariza 15m, but their failure of spending money to upgrade that 2018 team really resulted in us signing Ennis, which didn't work out, and then having to try to make Shumpert work, while giving up a ridiculous amount of assets. Not to mention, House also didn't play for a while since he didn't have a contract, and he was terrible in those playoffs as a result as well.
All this just reminds me that there is so much more nuance that I've forgotten.
**** Tilman, he really stinks. I hope he's finally done meddling, but that's wishful thinking.
Btw, pure cap on Harden getting whatever he wants. The Russ thing I get, but Tilman had a huge hand in that as well (his son was vocal about wanting CP3 gone too and that's practically gonna be the future owner of our team
). But other than that, what else? Because if he really got what he wanted, we would've went to the lux tax every damn year to upgrade the team, Tucker would've got his extension, etc etc. Woj has not been 100% accurate with this entire Harden saga; he's honestly lost some credibility as his sources have been all over the place.
IIRC it was something like Ryno + Melton for Knight and Chriss, and then we flipped that PLUS picks for Shumpert.
I didn't agree with paying Ariza 15m, but their failure of spending money to upgrade that 2018 team really resulted in us signing Ennis, which didn't work out, and then having to try to make Shumpert work, while giving up a ridiculous amount of assets. Not to mention, House also didn't play for a while since he didn't have a contract, and he was terrible in those playoffs as a result as well.
All this just reminds me that there is so much more nuance that I've forgotten.
**** Tilman, he really stinks. I hope he's finally done meddling, but that's wishful thinking.
Btw, pure cap on Harden getting whatever he wants. The Russ thing I get, but Tilman had a huge hand in that as well (his son was vocal about wanting CP3 gone too and that's practically gonna be the future owner of our team
). But other than that, what else? Because if he really got what he wanted, we would've went to the lux tax every damn year to upgrade the team, Tucker would've got his extension, etc etc. Woj has not been 100% accurate with this entire Harden saga; he's honestly lost some credibility as his sources have been all over the place.
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- Sep 25, 2004
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As much of a bad coach McHale was he was/is 100% accurate on everything he said about Harden even all the way up to this point. People were not trying to hear it but after all those seasons now here we are.
that 2016 Game 6 benching is who Harden is in the playoffs to be honest.
He’s a great 2nd or even 3rd option at this point and he’s definitely not a leader.
that 2016 Game 6 benching is who Harden is in the playoffs to be honest.
He’s a great 2nd or even 3rd option at this point and he’s definitely not a leader.
- Jun 1, 2011
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Yea let’s not get crazy, he’s a first option. We don’t have to get outrageous just cause he should be out of here.
- Jun 1, 2011
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- 79,506
- Aug 21, 2005
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He already proved he's not a first option anymore. hell of regular season player but when you gotta win something meaningful in the playoffs he ain't the one on a chip caliber team you can depend on.
Now if you wanna say he's a first option on a team like the Knicks or something like that then of course
Those Wall and Cousins shots are
- Jun 9, 2020
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If Paul doesn't get hurt in 2017-2018, there's a very real chance a Harden led team takes down the best team of all time and we're not having this discussion. Instead, Paul pulls his hammy, rockets lose the series, and y'all are pushing the narrative that Harden isn't the guy because he couldn't win one out of 2 games vs steph/Klay/dray/KD with Gordon/Tucker/Ariza on his side. That's insane to me.
I won't talk y'all out of trying to trade him, but realize that Tilman's spending habits and his family's meddling into basketball operations indicates we're going to be knicks south when Harden leaves.
I won't talk y'all out of trying to trade him, but realize that Tilman's spending habits and his family's meddling into basketball operations indicates we're going to be knicks south when Harden leaves.
- May 10, 2013
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Was Paul a detriment or a savior? I'm genuinely asking. Because how I'm reading it from you, CP3 wasn't the same caliber talent as Steph/Klay/Dray/KD to begin with because his age. So they didn't stand a chance, yet were up 3-1. But yet at the same time because he got hurt, they lost.
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- Jun 9, 2020
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Fair question but I don't think it's as black and white as detriment vs. savior. To adequately answer it, I think you have to contextualize it by adding what brought CP to Houston, what role CP was supposed to fill, and what CP did in Houston. I'll add that I was mistaken in that CP was 32 and 33 in his 2 seasons in Houston, not 34.
In 2016-2017, we hired D'Antoni and MDA/Morey went pure moreyball. high PnR every possession, shoot more 3s than ever etc. We increased our 3p attempts per game from 30 to 40 in one season. in the playoffs, our rotation was Harden, Ariza, Gordon, Beverly, Capela, Nene, Ryno, Lou Williams. It became apparent that we had no secondary ball handlers/shot creators. Lou was shaky in the playoffs, Bev isn't a traditional PG, and EG isn't suited as a playmaker. When Harden sat, we were going to struggle. A lot of that is organizational philosophy and roster makeup. Recognizing the need for another creator, we trade for CP.
2017-2018 is CPs first season in houston. Brought in to be a secondary creator to take some playmaking responsibility and burden away from Harden. CP was a fantastic fit for this role because he still was able to run PnR and expose an isolation when teams switched and beat them. He was statistically one of the better isolation players in the league, behind Harden. This allowed us to actually sit and rest Harden for stretches without being concerned that the bench would hemorrhage a lead. This team also had Ariza + LMAM and I don't think it can be understated how valuable they were. IMO, if CP3 stays healthy that season, our roster makeup and variance playstyle gave us a punchers chance to beat GSW when literally no one else could even hang in the gym with them.
2018-2019 was one where CP was never healthy and we had roster turnover in cost saving measures. CP's numbers across the board were worse and his ability to beat defenders off the dribble was severely diminished. it culminated in an embarrassing playoff series against golden state where he legit struggled to get past kevon looney and jonas jerebko. Because of his diminished physical capacity, he no longer really was able to serve the purpose he was brought in for. Worse off, this was his second year in a row looking unhealthy and left a lot of people thinking he was the worst contract in the league and only going to get worse.
to try and sum up your question, i'd say CP was a "savior" in year 1 and a "detriment" in year 2.
