Lets Discuss The Industry

[the12the22the32the4]

Originally Posted by 3onPar5

I think sometimes we get to caught up in the Lebron line or Kobe line selling more than the other. I think thats because most of here in this discussion lived during the Golden Era of basketballs shoes. I doubt any line will sell as well as Jordan ever! So its unfair of us to comapre. I think NIKE is trying to think different, like with the Lebron line sure the actual Lebron VI maybe didnt sell as many pairs but add those sales with the soliders and the VI lows and ALL the SMU that the VI had and I bet you have a pretty good number. It also benefits NIKE to pair Kobe and Lebron in advertising because I dont think one man can sell like before.

Its also a little tougher to market a "big mans shoe" which is essentially what Lebron needs. I know my son loves his and they look great on his feet.

Lets not get on MenofOregon too much, let him voice his opinion. We have gone 5 good pages with good banter, lets keep that going. I think he was saying that NIKE had a dream team of sorts to lure Lebron in the first place and when it came time that UA could not match that firepower.

I don't think Nike has gotten the return they expected on that $90 million contract, that's all I was referring to on the sales side. Considering they've invested $90 million in the line, the return has not been what they hoped it would, that's all. They're not losing money by any means, but Lebron's been a bit of a "disappointment" behind closed doors. Kobe was at first as well, and he's hot right now coming off a championship, but his Nike success overall has been mediocre as well, just that he didn't have the contract that Lebron does (both signed in 2003 - Kobe $45 million over 5 years, Lebron $90 million over 7 years).

I wasn't getting on MofO, he's put up good stuff in the past and I like other things he's posted as well. I just don't think what he posted in this thread was warranted, given that UA wasn't even pushing footwear at all at the time he alluded to.

 

[crazy ebw]

Originally Posted by the12the22the32the4

Keep in mind though, the Kobe line was nothing special (sales wise) until the IV. I remember the Kobe I's sitting in the outlets for $34.99 and the II's and III's not even making it to a lot of areas outside of California. Lebron was doing pretty well with the III's and IV's, but then the V's and VI's were a downturn. VII's seem to be doing better, but haven't seen a lot of their numbers yet. Granted, the Soldier line plays a big part in cannibalizing sales from the Lebron signature line, but the signature line should still be the focus.

Well to be fair, everything after the ZK1 was Foot Locker/Eastbay only and the marketing was essentially nowhere to be found. It was still fairly early for Kobe's image to be "in the good" again after Colorado. Obviously the designs were out there and not as easy on the eyes, but personally I have loved every ZK shoe that Nike has dropped for performance concerns. With the IV getting good treatment commercially and having an awesome design, it was a no brainer that these would do better.

 The IV was good for a long time but the lunar foam was a letdown for me so i'm looking forward to getting the V to try those out. Waiting on the White/Reds to drop. The buzz behind these is amazing. Same thing for the Bron VII though. People have really seemed to gravitate towards the design of this shoe for some reason and the buzz is A LOT better than the V and VI were. Around here at least.

 

[rockdeep]

Wasn't the ZK II in all Models Full Zoom? I heard alot about it but never got to ball in them. I even owned a pair but sold them before ever wearing them. I wonder how those are availability wise. But I digress on the topic.. lol

 

[crazy ebw]

I thought they were but I can't remember. I still wear mine from time to time but the stuff Achilles is the only thing I don't like. The strength version however is amazing.

 

[mp23]

^The ZK II had full-length Zoom in them, number two shoe for me in the Kobe line, behind the IV. I think you guys made some great points with Nike not getting the ROI on Lebron they thought with the massive contract that they gave him. However, its very hard to sell a shoe for such an engima of a player. LeBron isn't a little guy, nor a center, as some of you have mentioned he is more of a "power center" than anything the way he is built. As we all know, guards sell shoes, not big guys, plus the designs of the Lebrons after the IV have gone downhill, with the exception of the VII today. I think the marketing machine behind Nike Basketball really needs to get back to its roots back in the day of the Fun Police commercials, Freestyle, The Funky Shoguns, The AF25 campaign (one of the coolest commercials ever, even though the shoe was less than successful at retail), etc. Those really showcased Nike's TEAM effort, although I understand the obvious push behind Kobe and Lebron. Maybe some more realistic commercials featuring the two, instead of these puppet ones. Yeah, they were cute at first, but for grown men and the 18-35 demographic, it seems a bit juvenile. Remember the commercial featuring the Shox BB4 and starring Vince Carter and Gary Payton? Do something like that to feature them.

 

[crazy ebw]

Puppets are cool, but yeah the Christmas commercials were OD long and corny. Nike needs to show LEBRON the person in his commercials. Dude has that natural ability to be free in front of the camera and show his personality. Haven't seen that in many commercials with LeBron from any endorser really since "The Lebrons" and the IV. I think the public would and should want to feel connected to the people, not the puppets.

 

[tokes99]

Originally Posted by the12the22the32the4

I wasn't getting on MofO, he's put up good stuff in the past and I like other things he's posted as well. I just don't think what he posted in this thread was warranted, given that UA wasn't even pushing footwear at all at the time he alluded to

i don't think MoO was referring to the time period, i interpreted it as UA doesn't/wouldn't quite have the resources to make such a pitch when the time comes...

another word i'd use to describe the state of the industry, as least as it pertains to basketball, is depressing!!! take dwade's move from converse to jordan; its a move that MAY help jordan minimally if at all, & hurts converse (yes i know converse is owned by nike, but doesn't this move seem like it could the end of the basketball division there? i hope not) immensely...a complete microcosm of the way industry seems to be going, no one takes any real risk...i kinda understand why (basketball) consumers & players alike gravitate towards nike, they have been synonymous with the sport since converse fell off a cliff in the mid/late 80's (minor comeback in the early/mid 90s not withstanding, REACT JUICE!) i guess what i don't understand is why so many players don't seem to have the imagination to think beyond the swoosh/jumpman? i loved that brandon jennings went with UA, even though it probably had much more to do with the money, it was exciting & unexpected; i wish more guys did the unexpected...

there is just a lack of imagination all around, everyone seems to be cool with the status quo, (consumer & companies alike) just playing follow the leader...no vision, lack of ambition, so wack...

Originally Posted by Crazy EBW

Puppets are cool, but yeah the Christmas commercials were OD long and corny. Nike needs to show LEBRON the person in his commercials. Dude has that natural ability to be free in front of the camera and show his personality. Haven't seen that in many commercials with LeBron from any endorser really since "The Lebrons" and the IV. I think the public would and should want to feel connected to the people, not the puppets.

when has duke EVER been free in front of the camera? if you don't think everything big homie says isn't at carefully crafted, then you haven't been paying attention...unless by free you mean he is comfortable in his skin...one of the worst things that came of this post-jordan era of athletes is the vacuum they seemingly occupy, there aren't many moments that come across as being real & visceral as their exploits in sport, few are that. not sure the players or the people really want an authentic connection of any substance, they, we really just want a cool &/or funny narrative...

 

[3onpar5]

when has duke EVER been free in front of the camera? if you don't think everything big homie says isn't at carefully crafted, then you haven't been paying attention...unless by free you mean he is comfortable in his skin...one of the worst things that came of this post-jordan era of athletes is the vacuum they seemingly occupy, there aren't many moments that come across as being real & visceral as their exploits in sport, few are that. not sure the players or the people really want an authentic connection of any substance, they, we really just want a cool &/or funny narrative..



Im am sure lots of athletes are careful because once you slip up they dont let you forget it. Look at Tiger, that was a freakin circus. Speaking of Tiger, now that he has slipped I look for Lebron to be that "next" endorser. He just signed with McDonalds and I think he could be "that guy" in the coming years. Hes got that cool factor and I think he can cross lines (racial lines) to appeal to lots of people. White kids like him, black, etc. He comes across as that guy you wanna hang with.

 

[crazy ebw]

Originally Posted by 3onPar5

when has duke EVER been free in front of the camera? if you don't think everything big homie says isn't at carefully crafted, then you haven't been paying attention...unless by free you mean he is comfortable in his skin...one of the worst things that came of this post-jordan era of athletes is the vacuum they seemingly occupy, there aren't many moments that come across as being real & visceral as their exploits in sport, few are that. not sure the players or the people really want an authentic connection of any substance, they, we really just want a cool &/or funny narrative..

Im am sure lots of athletes are careful because once you slip up they dont let you forget it. Look at Tiger, that was a freakin circus. Speaking of Tiger, now that he has slipped I look for Lebron to be that "next" endorser. He just signed with McDonalds and I think he could be "that guy" in the coming years. Hes got that cool factor and I think he can cross lines (racial lines) to appeal to lots of people. White kids like him, black, etc. He comes across as that guy you wanna hang with.
I'm saying Lebron can be free and work well front of a camera. He's got the charisma that a lot of athletes don't and had rather stay behind the scenes. Bron wants to be in front of the camera, on court or not.

 

[the12the22the32the4]

Originally Posted by Crazy EBW

Puppets are cool, but yeah the Christmas commercials were OD long and corny. Nike needs to show LEBRON the person in his commercials. Dude has that natural ability to be free in front of the camera and show his personality. Haven't seen that in many commercials with LeBron from any endorser really since "The Lebrons" and the IV. I think the public would and should want to feel connected to the people, not the puppets.

My problem with the Puppets is again that they make Kobe look like the cool guy and Lebron like the bumbling sidekick. The one where Kobe's shoe catches the closet on fire really makes Lebron look like the "PC" in the Apple "Mac and PC" commericals. It's just a really mismanaged/uneven ad campaign for Lebron, in my opinion.

 

[bryscooplaygrifhold]

Well.  Not to point out the obvious, but Kobe does have 4 rings which LBJ does not.  I don't think the commercials make him look so much like an idiot/goofy sidekick, as they do make him look more laid back and less conceited than Kobe.  Its no secret that Kobe is/has been much more closed off and into his own deal than Lebron is.  Lebron seems to be able to "laugh" at himself and take a more laid back approach even though his game is anything but.  I think that in the end, its why Lebron may be remembered as a better overall player than Kobe.  At this stage, and moving forward, I think Lebron is more understandable and relateable to more people than Kobe ever will be.  Is Kobe dedicated, decorated, and an unbelieveable talent.  Absolutely.  However, over the long haul, I believe Lebron will get his and eclipse Kobe because of his demeanor and his ability to take over a game in every way imaginable.  Just an observation and purely my opinion.  Feel free to disagree.

 

[words1999]

My opinion on the state of the business as it relates to Basketball shoes....mostly..off the top  
Nike: I would actually like Nike to take more risk... seems like their shoes are pretty simple, they're just applying new executional techniques to them....i.e. replacing leather with flexible plastic and integrated cable stitching. Nike should be able to do whatever they want since they have so much control over the industry...or maybe not.

Jordan: Stop selling dreams and start making some real performance shoes. I picked up the new CP3 shoe and it was so heavy. The story is getting just a little too ridiculous at times. Can anybody say "peephole"

Converse: Im sorry. I wish the powers that be wouldve kept you in the game. Tough break

Adidas: I think adidas makes some good shoes. I dont really know what to say about Adidas as I'm a fan of the D howard shoe from earlier this season and some of their latest product with the feet you wear modern look to it.

Reebok: Reebok Reebok Reebok, man... Iverson is getting old. Whatchu gonna do? I actually grew up in the era when Reeboks where everywhere. Fredro Star wore the Kamikazi's in sunset park. I think Reebok is still a legit player they just have to spend some real money on their marketing. Im not talking Krazy either.

Li Ning: I like Li Ning, All their product is original and new... alittle disjointed but still new and fresh. I would tell them to keep trying to take over the asian Market as its more money to be made over their. The U.S consumer is still gung ho on retro styling. 

Peak/ Anta: Not really feeling these brands on a personal level, 

UA: Still waiting. I havent seen a design that I'm really feeling ... so i have nothing good or bad to say.... Brandon Jennings is a great acquisition though.

And 1: Try to make a splash in other markets outside of the US that way when things are looking down for you...you still have those other markets to rely on. I will always be a fan of the and 1 mixtapes.

 

[crazy ebw]

While I disagree with what you're saying, it's really not relevant to the shoe industry. Sure, the hardwood is ultimately where we see the players with their shoes in action. The average customer doesn't care about that though. They don't care at all. That's what the marketing and commercials do so their games and who is the better player doesn't have much to do with the shoes.

 

[mp23]

Plus And1 isn't even a player anymore, they went bankrupt.

 

[jumpmanfan1]

Originally Posted by MP23

Plus And1 isn't even a player anymore, they went bankrupt.

!! really? Now that you mention it I haven't seen anything recent from them..but WoW! that's interesting..

I really respect Nike for what they're doing though, with the concept of considered products, lifestyle editions, and limited releases they are definitely the front-runner for not only sales, but almost what I like to call "ReNaISsANCe DeSIGn." Taking it back to the essence of sneaker design as well as implementing re-innovations and more contemporary developed styles...I'm Loving it.

Adidas has kept the tradition well and with their latest sneaks in Basketball I see no slowing down in their production of late, great, innovative models. I rock with adidas hard and love their classic style, which really takes us back also...

These two brands are really hitting the scene with great products, and I'm sure I speak for most of us when I say we appreciate it and are loyal to thir consitent greatness!!

Sn: I don't know if anyone noticed, but PONY, in my eyes, is making one helluva effort to come back with some of their recent products...lol jus playin not really though... huh? huh??

 

[3onpar5]

Adidas has kept the tradition well and with their latest sneaks in Basketball I see no slowing down in their production of late, great, innovative models.



What about adidas basketballs shoes has been innovative in the last 5 years. It seems to me that adidas is competing more with Jordan Brand than NIKE.

 

[duke4005]

^^^ I have to say the Formotion, especially the first and then this latest implementation, have me intrigued as a new technology. It works for my feet and does what they say for me. I can see how adidas is coming together to make shoes that fit different feet, worrying more about the consumer than the athlete, which in the long run could definitely hurt their status with Signature athletes signing with them, which in turn hurts your ability to market. To me, adidas right now is trying to innovate on the level of Nike while marketing in the vein of, say, New Balance, continuing to update last year's models with tweaks and re-structures. I still think they have to add a couple of Sig shoes for up-and-coming players (Howard, Rose, maybe a Josh Smith) to allow them to focus efforts on those athletes for marketing purposes, i.e. face to the name.

 

[jayhawk17]

Any more details on this APL Rock speaks of?....I only found their Twitter last week and they got like 5000 followers...not heard jack !@#$ about them anywhere....Seems as tho they have a shoe that makes you jump higher?.....really?

 

[bp the owner]

^ www.AthleticPropulsionLabs.com

 

[rockdeep]

My Man.

 

[flintgrey]

Originally Posted by CWK


I was a teenager in the 80's when adidas (global powerhouse) was gradually overtaken by NIKE (small upstart).  I think Brand Jordan is the adidas of our time; complacent and bloated.  Releasing uninspired fusions and hybrids is lazy and unoriginal - the brand is just a caricature of its former self.  A competitor with the right mix of product and marketing could steal market share and beat Brand Jordan, but it will take a revolution today just like it did back then.  I don't think any other company has attempted to seriously position themselves that way in over a decade.  Reebok and adidas seem satisfied with putting out low-to-mid pricepoint shoes with dated technology and safe colorways for the masses.  Under Armor's basketball footwear looks like rehashed And 1 designs (for obvious reasons).  I would like nothing better than for Brand Jordan to be challenged and step up, but it hasn't happened yet. 

Whaddup Chuck!  JB is living off the fat of the land - and that won't change anytime soon, even with this AJ2010 launch....

Originally Posted by RockDeep

Lebron fighting Dragons didn't help Brons marketing at all in Asia..

Then word got out in circles that he was a bit of an A-Hole. Thatdoesn't sit well with my boys over there.. lol.. Altho he still hasalot of loyal followers Kobe IS King over there.

Co-sign.  I won't state which event exactly, but when you are a Nike exec and your prize endorsee (Lebron) shows up late to a Nike-sponsored event, just interacts with entourage & doesn't mingle with the room full of the guys that write your check, then decides to skip out early to a non-Nike event, that says something.  Meanwhile, Kobe exudes the exact opposite behavior.

And yes, Rock is right - Kobe owns Asia, which really is the biggest emerging market.  Nike already dominates the athletic footwear market in North America.

Originally Posted by Crazy EBW

Gainingground in the running market is VERY tough. Most people who buybasketball shoes go off of what they can get for their personalpreference. Most people who buy running shoes go based off of otherpeople's suggestions because they know so little about the brands. Wordof mouth is very strong with runners. Runners are very stubborn tooabout what they wear once they get fitted and a tech running storerecommends them a pair of shoes.

Yup....it's afinnicky market too because once a runner finds a brand/model they arecomfortable with, they usually will be brand/model loyal for years. And if that runner runs long distances, they will go thru shoes at adizzying pace.  So nailing that runner down from the start is key.

Originally Posted by Crazy EBW

UA coming into the running game waskind of exciting at first, but now it just seems forced. From what i'veheard, they sold HORRIBLY, but I don't have specific numbers to backthat up at all.

I have seen two or three models at discount retailers like Marshalls for like $30, so I'd agree with that.

Originally Posted by duke4005

Crazy,I am the same way about Nike. I only wore Nike all through my mid-late90's glory days, as there was nothing on the market as innovative (Istill remember the Air Max CW coming out and how cool visible forefootair seemed) or just plain cool looking as that era's Nikes. But latelyI have given adidas a BIG chunk of my money. Maybe as I have gottenolder, I see how the performance of a shoe affects my body more thanthe looks, and adidas just feels better to me on most. Or maybe it isbecause I am not cool anymore, so I don't need the latest $150+ sigs.But I still look at that Nike wall first, to see what looks good, andvery few shoes out look as good as Nikes, and regardless of our Reviewshere or on ISS, or what science proves in Air compared to adiprene toDMX to Gel, looks are the first thing most consumers goes by. Andnothing in the athletic world has the "cool factor" of a good-lookingpair of Nikes. So, for now, they are still on top, although I may haveto wait on my cool factor to catch up to wear most of them.

Allwell stated.  I think the thing to make clear in this thread is thefine line between 1) a Niketalk/shoe enthusiast 2) and a regularconsumer.  I think it's safe to say 1 out of every 5 customers aFootLocker/Finishline sees is a sneakerheads, so the bulk of thecustomers is the masses.  I'd also venture to say the two things mostof these regular folks are looking for are affordable/comfortable shoesfor everyday or a multitude of activities. 

And to agree with your earlier statement - New Balance hoops shoes are performance beasts minus the bells/whistles.

 

[3onpar5]

Id like to touch a little on JB if I may. I was thinking today that its funny how a guy that is as synonomous with flight as Jordan is makes "heavy looking" shoes. For instance the CP III. Shouldnt that be more of a Huarache type shoe? And with Wade coming on I think the same thing. I know JB is trying to separate themselves from NIKE but I just think they gotta start some Flywire, Lunar stuff to "wakeup" the line a little. I mean with CP and Wade JB could be something special. Maybe like a CP/Wade vs Kobe/Lebron. Those are real exciting players that will be around a while.

But JB IMO needs to step out of the JB box a little. Thoughts?

 

[rockdeep]

If you introduce new tech, that means losing profit margin. Mr. Jordan aint having that and neither are the execs over there. IPS was poo poo in my opinion. I cant blame the designers at all on the Jordan side. Astor Chamber is the new Gentry who was Director over on the "retro" side aka Nike Sportswear. Funny Jordan International where Gentry is now, has been doing some different stuff.

Mark Smith I thought would REALLY change things like implementing ALL old Jordans with new tech and improved enhancements to update the old Jordans with new rides. I guess thats not happening. I had high hopes for my boys over there.. but seems like the same ole stuff. Designers hands are tied and Marketing is leading the way.

But thats just my opinion. I do think they are handcuffing themselves by not branching out with more tech like Nike.. not new Tech that isn't going to stick around.

 

[crazy ebw]

Isn't the Alpha with the full length bottom loaded Zoom a step in the direction you speak of Rock? I've seen tons of people hate on these and it seems that most of the people who do so are the ones who don't understand what it's made for. Once I can explain and get them to see the light, they love it. There's not a shoe i'd love to see get the Alpha treatment moreso than the III. Cement Alphas on the court? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!

The lack of new technology implemented into Team Based shoes is kind of boring. Throwing the Jumpman on a half-assed shoe isn't a good look at all. The Ol School III was the first "Team" Jordan shoe since the Pro Shake that I truly enjoyed. Don't ask me why I loved the Pro Shake, I just did!

IPS didn't do much for me either. The XX was OKAY IMO and the XXI was too stiff and the lack of flexibility was a big issue with me. The XX2 was awesome IMO. Lighter weight and the heel felt great for me. Never played in my XX3 or 2009's so can't really comment on them. The last JB game shoe that wowed me was the XIX. The double stacked heel was amazing the the flex/speed lacing wasn't that bad. The XIX SE was a huge hit FOR ME.

The CP 1 and 2 were pretty clunky IMO but the III is definitely a step in the lighter, quicker direction you speak of Par. It just FEELS better right out of the box especially on the flexibility part. Still haven't given these a run on the hardwood, but i'm looking forward to that soon enough.

I too agree that JB doesn't put out shoes made for slashers and light guards as they should. I'm really, really looking forward to the 2010 just because of how much Tinker has talked about lightweight performance and a step in a direction that i'm excited about for the first time in a long time. Can't wait to get those puppies on my feet next weekend.

This post=GREAT!

 

[mp23]

I agree with you guys, Jordan is getting tired with these antiquated encapsulated Air-Sole setups and the such, use Zoom or the IPS like the XX2 featured and bring something new and innovative to the table. You can't keep on churning out these Jordans that don't idealize the innovativeness that was Michael Jordan as a player!! Crazy, the 2009 was terrible for me, soooo heavy and I didn't feel the cushioning at all. I was very disappointed after reading the cushioning setup and actively trying to feel it when I cut. Also, not flexible in the least. I hope you play in them so I can see how they performed for you.

I wish threads like this would hit 900+ like the Kobe thread, we need more real talk like this, actual discussions of the industry, the different brands direction, technology of the shoes, brand marketing, etc. instead of the thousands of generic, "yo, check my cool matching gear with this hyped shoe that I bought that I will never ever wear."