Magic, Jordan, Kobe and Lebron Vol. First RING numbers.

[acbboyz84]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Originally Posted by quik1987



Kobe started 1996

Lebron and Wade started 2003

Kobe as a first option didn't get a good team until 2009

Kobe as first option 2-3 in Finals

Lebron , Wade 1-3 lol

Funny thing is Wade and Lebron is on the same team.

What's funny is that Kobe was the first option long before that.

He was the first option for the first time in the 2002-03. The Lakers lost in the second round.
The following season they made the finals. Instead of playing for the NBA championship trophy, he tried exclusively to play for the Finals MVP trophy. Why? He was salty as hell of people saying that he was piggyback riding Shaq for those 3 rings. He knew it was true so he figured he'd gun for the finals MVP no matter what happened. So instead of passing the ball to a well over 60% shooting Shaq those finals, he took many more shots than Shaq per game and bricked the vast majority of them, shooting under 40%, losing the finals and ultimately running Shaq out of town.

Lol at you still trying to discredit Kobe for what he did for the Lakers. Kobe put in work Period. He HELPED Shaq. Therefore he earned his name on the ring. Of course Shaq dominated because he got Jeff Foster and Rik Smith guarding him in 2000 while playing 2 feet away from the basket ? Shaq couldn't do it when he got to play defense on Hakeem while being checked by Hakeem . My point is Kobe put in work so the Lakers can get to the Finals. You can't discredit Kobe . Go back and watch wcf games

My question was how come Shaq didn't win when he got a prime Penny ? Your answer is because Hakeem lol. Thank you for seeing the light

What the hell is the matter with you?

I am not here to discuss WHY Shaq was dominant. I know damn well the centers sucked during that era. I am here to point out the fact that Shaq WAS dominant. That is the whole friggin point of my post, to show the luxury Kobe had playing next to a player who was so dominant that nobody in the league could do anything to stop him.

What exactly is your point with this anyway? How the hell does the fact hat Shaq played against crappy centers exactly work in favor of your pro-Kobe argument?

Without Kobe playing great defense and playing the facilitator role during those WCF games . The Lakers wouldnt even advance to the Finals.


Without Shaq, the Lakers wouldn't even make the playoffs, or at least not out of the first round. Oh wait, that actually happened in the 2004-05 season, and 2006 and 2007 playoffs, just before the exposed Kobe demanded a trade.

You posted a video the BEST game of Kobe from that three-peat, but I can post 5-6 games from Shaq from those three finals series alone that are better than that game. Another example of how far behind Shaq dominance-wise Kobe was during that period. And I can post a ton of playoff highlight games from Iverson, McGrady and VC.

You mentioned guy like Tmac, AI , VC etc. Those guys play zero defense. Unlike them Kobe in his physical prime was a great lock down defensive player.

And Kobe > Tmac, AI VC even as second option 29.ppg as a second option playing on the WEST conference vs SPurs, Kings Portland. Nuff said


What great perimeter players did those teams have for Kobe's "lock down" defense to be more valuable than McGrady's, Carter's or Iverson's would have been? Mike Bibby?

And by the way no, 2000-2004 Kobe Bryant was not better than 2000-2004 Tracy McGrady. What's hilarious is you thinking that Kobe had it "hard" in the west. Yeah, poor baby. He had it so hard with Shaq drawing the vast majority of the opponents defensive attention every game.

You said Kobe was meh in 2001 . LOL you obviously didn't watch him. Here one of what he did against the SPurs http://www.youtube.com/wa...pnmAk2xU&feature=related

and then against the Kings

But still in your view. Kobe was meh . What a troll you are
Again. Lebron is great than Jordan because he got 8 imaginary rings right ?


Yes, as I said in my first post, Kobe was meh in the 2001 finals and was the reason why the Lakers didn't go 16-0 those playoffs.

And you keep taking comfort in the three imaginary rings Kobe won between 2000-02 in the parallel universe where he wasn't piggyback riding Shaq.

Kobe was meh ? Man Shut your butt up. Tmac in his prime couldn't even get out the first round with Yao and Yao is a lot better than Gasol. Also I was talking about 00-03 Kobe . Why you bring up 04 Tmac ? Kobe shot low % because of the Piston excellent defense. That team was playing the best defense i've seen. It's pointless going back and forth with a Kobe hater like you. Shaq was the MVP but he wouldn't win without Kobe. Kobe put in work. He didn't piggy back riding on anyone. Shaq said Kobe is the greatest Lakers and said Kobe is his best guard out of all the other one he played with. That's the final point.

There's no if or but. Kobe put in work so therefore he earned his rings. Doesn't matter how you twist it in trying to discredit him. Just go watch the entire three peat of the Lakers.

You really need to get a life outside of NT. You once compare Lebron 6 imaginary rings vs Kobe 5 real life rings. You're a joke. Everyone know you're nothing but a troll. Get a life buddy boy

 

[solarius49]

Originally Posted by franchise3

Originally Posted by DT43

Originally Posted by franchise3



My main point is, having Shaq as your starting C during those years makes it easy for anybody and everybody, considering how dominant he was. He was the main cog. And Gasol was routinely touted as one of the most talented bigs in the game. How many big men were better than him when he came to the Lakers? You can count them on one hand. And I doubt you use all your fingers.

"..makes it easy for anybody and everybody" just like having Lebron, Bosh, and Wade would make it easy to go 72-10 and cruise to a championship, right?�Again, it doesn't work like that.

I don't understand how you expect people to just disregard what Kobe did for those teams. There was nothing "easy" about it. Yep, 22 year old VC/Tmac/Paul Pierce would have done this against the Spurs in the playoffs

Look at the graphic from 0:41:

That is quite literally insane. If you just assume a 22-year old Tmac/VC/Pierce would have been able to emulate that performance (also consider the fact that he was the best perimeter defender in the league at that time), you were probably one of the "da Heats is going 72-10 durrr" clowns

As for bigs considered better than Gasol at the time? Uhh idk, how about all the big men who were being chosen for All-Star and All-NBA teams over Gasol? Shaq, Duncan, KG, Dirk, Dwight, Yao, Bosh,�Jermaine O'Neal,�Amare, Boozer, Elton Brand, David West, Jamison.. Gasol was only considered dominant in your head, bruh.�

Ok now answer my other question. How many rings has Kobe won without, I won't even use dominant, a premier big man? Again is it coincidence that Gasol turns into Gasoft recently and the Lakers don't make any noise in the playoffs?

I would actually rather answer your question with another question.
How many players on that list have won a title without a premier big man?

Magic had Kareem

Jordan had Rodman

Lebron had Bosh

Kobe had Shaq, and in later years, Gasol

 

[laker4lifeman]

The famous Kobe has never won without a big man

 

[crime wave]

You're pretty much a Kobe stan with broken english.

 

[dt43]

Ok now answer my other question. How many rings has Kobe won without, I won't even use dominant, a premier big man? Again is it coincidence that Gasol turns into Gasoft recently and the Lakers don't make any noise in the playoffs?

I can't even tell what you're arguing... How many rings has Shaq won without a dominant perimeter player? How many rings has Lebron won without 2 All-Stars? How many rings did Jordan win without Pippen?

No one is saying Shaq wasn't the best player on those teams, Kobe-fan or otherwise. But the bottom line is, they both played at an extremely high level. You're trying to suggest that one carried the other, which misrepresents the situation as if Kobe was Battier or someone. For the last two rings Shaq was 1a and Kobe was 1b. If you can't see that head over to youtube and watch some old playoff games, I know they're on there so you have no excuse.

 

[franchise3]

Yeah really. Nobody has won without help. Even Kobe wanted out after Shaq left. But yet, Bron gets bashed. Shaq was A. Kobe B. In my eyes.

 

[scotthallwithapick]

Originally Posted by Maximus Meridius

Yeah this #%#% aint going nowhere. One side is saying Kobe aint earn his ring. The other saying the refs gave Lebron his ring.

 

[ricky409]

Originally Posted by Maximus Meridius

Originally Posted by ricky409

Originally Posted by Do Be Doo

Magic
Kareem
West
Wilt
Shaq

true story...

i had this argument over in general...

back then, shaq was ridiculous... put early 2000s Tmac, VC, or Paul Pierce in Kobe's spot and you get 3 chips... maybe more cuz those guys arent the personalities of Kobe...

Come on son. Tmac? Vince Carter? These dudes have never done anything in the playoffs. I'll give you Pierce because he's clutch but he still aint on Kobes level. 
  

i'm not about to blast stats...

but i will tell you that its A HELL of alot easier to do justice if 1. you have the most dominant center in the history of basketball on your team and 2. you're NEVER seeing a double team..
  

Originally Posted by quik1987

Originally Posted by knightngale

Even Lebron earned his first ring more than Wade did, which is saying something.

16 of those 34ppg came from the FT line
dude took 97 FTs in 6 games

25 free throws in game 5

Agreed, Lebron and Wade earned their first ring more than Kobe.



15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.2 apg 36%fg%

34.7ppg, 7.8rpg, 3.8apg 46.8fg% & finals mvp

28.6ppg, 10.2rpg, 7.4apg 47.2fg% & finals mvp


one of these things is not like the other

 

[prison mike]

DT43 with the sonning of franchise3.  

 

[prison mike]

Originally Posted by DT43

Originally Posted by franchise3

Originally Posted by DT43

It doesn't work like that, though. You can't just take stats out of context and make hypotheticals without considering other factors. This is the exact type of reasoning/thinking that led some people to believe Miami was going to go 72-10 and sweep the playoffs last year. I hope you weren't among that group.
And is Gasol really a dominant big? He had 1 All-Star selection prior to playing with Kobe, and 3 after they teamed up. Dominant?�

My main point is, having Shaq as your starting C during those years makes it easy for anybody and everybody, considering how dominant he was. He was the main cog. And Gasol was routinely touted as one of the most talented bigs in the game. How many big men were better than him when he came to the Lakers? You can count them on one hand. And I doubt you use all your fingers.

"..makes it easy for anybody and everybody" just like having Lebron, Bosh, and Wade would make it easy to go 72-10 and cruise to a championship, right?�Again, it doesn't work like that.

I don't understand how you expect people to just disregard what Kobe did for those teams. There was nothing "easy" about it. Yep, 22 year old VC/Tmac/Paul Pierce would have done this against the Spurs in the playoffs

Look at the graphic from 0:41:

That is quite literally insane. If you just assume a 22-year old Tmac/VC/Pierce would have been able to emulate that performance (also consider the fact that he was the best perimeter defender in the league at that time), you were probably one of the "da Heats is going 72-10 durrr" clowns

As for bigs considered better than Gasol at the time? Uhh idk, how about all the big men who were being chosen for All-Star and All-NBA teams over Gasol? Shaq, Duncan, KG, Dirk, Dwight, Yao, Bosh,�Jermaine O'Neal,�Amare, Boozer, Elton Brand, David West, Jamison.. Gasol was only considered dominant in your head, bruh.�

The so-called heat "fans"/kobe haters will choose to ignore this.

 

[quik1987]

No matter how big you bold your words and how many rolling smileys y'all post, won't change the fact that Shaq put everyone on that Lakers 2000 team (INCLUDING KOBE) and lead them to a championship in that finals series.

The numbers show it, as do the finals mvp trophys.

What does Kobe being in his 4th year have to do with anything?

Did Magic not lead the Lakers to a title in his rookie season?

 

[do be doo]

prison mike wrote:

---

Leave koME alone!!!

\

 

[xtapolapacetl]

LOL @ making the all-star team being an accurate measurement of how good a player was. I guess that means that Dana Barros and B.J. Armstrong were better than Rod Strickland. You forgot Jamaal Magloire. I know that this obviously better than Gasol player made the all-star team during those years. And Gasol did make an all-star team before joining the Lakers anyway.

Gasol's last season before joining the Lakers:

20.8 ppg on .538
9.8 rpg
3.4 apg
2.1 bpg
in 36.2 minutes

Garnett was the only big man putting up all-round numbers quite like this, and even he didn't shoot 54%.

The fact remains that Kobe was exposed in those post-Shaq, pre-Gasol seasons. Two first round exits and a lottery. No one is saying that he should've won a championship. No one is even saying that he should've beat those Phoenix Suns teams in the first round (although blowing a 3-1 lead IS pretty horrible). But what he definitely should have done is lead his team to a better regular season record and put them in a position to play against a team that wasn't as good as Phoenix. If he was as great as you say, then those three seasons should've been more like two second round exits and one western conference finals exit instead of two first round exits and lottery.

But then Gasol came to the rescue. And he was so PERFECT for Kobe stan exploitation. It's as if he was custom built. A great all-round low post player who contributed so much on the court, but who was not popular and extremely underrated. And best of all, his soft Euroness was always there for exploitation. If they should lose, blame it on "Gasoft". He could even have a game where he grabbed 20 FRIGGIN REBOUNDS and he would get blamed for losing that game because he was SOFT:

http://www.basketball-ref...scores/201011110DEN.html

Who cares if he had 20 rebounds, right? Look at him. He's a soft, goofy-looking Euro with toothpicks for arms who have no defined muscles. He HAD to have been the reason for why they lost.

The highest amount of rebounds Chris Bosh grabbed in the two seasons since joining the Heat playoffs or regular season is 17 (once), then 16 (once). In the end, Gasol will never get the props he deserves for what he contributed in those championship seasons, but that is to be expected.

 

[goldmember]

OH Look! Lebron won a championship and his stans with 8 imaginary rings are back hating on Kobe ...

You guys are something else

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by Goldmember

OH Look! Lebron won a championship and his stans with 8 imaginary rings are back hating on Kobe ...

You guys are something else

Replace 20 year-old Kobe who averaged 19.9, 5.3 and 3.8 in 98-99 with 20 year-old LeBron from 2004-05 who averaged 27.2, 7.4 and 7.2 and have him play with a Shaq who was that dominant = 6 rings in the following 8 seasons

 

[prison mike]

Originally Posted by Goldmember

OH Look! Lebron won a championship and his stans with 8 imaginary rings are back hating on Kobe ...

You guys are something else

Dude is a complete idiot. By far the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my LIFE.

 

[goldmember]

 

[vanexellent]

Originally Posted by quik1987

No matter how big you bold your words and how many rolling smileys y'all post, won't change the fact that Shaq put everyone on that Lakers 2000 team (INCLUDING KOBE) and lead them to a championship in that finals series.

The numbers show it, as do the finals mvp trophys.

What does Kobe being in his 4th year have to do with anything?

Did Magic not lead the Lakers to a title in his rookie season?

Speaking of numbers showing it while the MVP trophy doesnt......Magic got the Finals MVP in 1980 for that incredible game 6 where he got 42 & 15 boards with Kareem out with an injured ankle. But if you look at the boxscores for the rest of those Finals you'll see Kareem (the regular season MVP) was leading them in scoring and rebounding. So while Kareem led the Lakers in regular season and for 5 Finals games, Magic had historical game 6 and 30 years latter people have Magic leading the Lakers to a title all by himself (not even mentioning Jamaal Wilkes game 6).
So yeah, Shaq's Finals performances led that Laker squads to a 3peat but if not for other stepping up along way there wouldnt be Finals for him to dominate. 

 

[sn souljah]

iverson avgd 36ppg in the finals vs the lakers..bringin up tmac is irrelevant..sure at tht point in kobes career he was replaceable , there were other viable options to fill kobes role as a 2nd man on those lakers squads..particularly 00 and 01. Tmac, AI, VC, Ray Allen..could have been great on those lakers teams ...Shaq said himself that his respect for Iverson sky rocketed after seeing how hard he played in those 01 finals

 

[acbboyz84]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by Goldmember

OH Look! Lebron won a championship and his stans with 8 imaginary rings are back hating on Kobe ...

You guys are something else

Replace 20 year-old Kobe who averaged 19.9, 5.3 and 3.8 in 98-99 with 20 year-old LeBron from 2004-05 who averaged 27.2, 7.4 and 7.2 and have him play with a Shaq who was that dominant = 6 rings in the following 8 seasons

This guy is a joke. His arguments are base on "if this" "if that" . So Dwight Howard would have 4 rings right now if you replace Dwight for Bynum.

. Yea 4 imaginary rings

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by Goldmember

Originally Posted by prison mike

Dude is a complete idiot. By far the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my LIFE.

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

This guy is a joke. His arguments are base on "if this" "if that" . So Dwight Howard would have 4 rings right now if you replace Dwight for Bynum.

. Yea 4 imaginary rings

Once again: Replace 20 year-old Kobe who averaged 19.9, 5.3 and 3.8 in 98-99 with 20 year-old LeBron from 2004-05 who averaged 27.2, 7.4 and 7.2 and have him play with a Shaq who was that dominant = 6 rings in the following 8 seasons

 

[finallyfamous]

Magic passed the torch to Jordan. Jordan passed it to Kobe and IMO he passed it to Bron.

I love mamba, but I'll be shocked if he gets 6

 

[the natural mystic]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by prison mike

Dude is a complete idiot. By far the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my LIFE.

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

This guy is a joke. His arguments are base on "if this" "if that" . So Dwight Howard would have 4 rings right now if you replace Dwight for Bynum.

. Yea 4 imaginary rings

Once again: Replace 20 year-old Kobe who averaged 19.9, 5.3 and 3.8 in 98-99 with 20 year-old LeBron from 2004-05 who averaged 27.2, 7.4 and 7.2 and have him play with a Shaq who was that dominant = 6 rings in the following 8 seasons

What you are saying is all imaginary son. That !!#! makes no sense. Speaking in "if's is the weakest argument anyone can bring up. The fact of the matter is Kobe was the person who was on the team and who produced. That's FACT. HE won the rings! "If lebron, if T-mac, if Iverson" is all imaginary. You cannot base an argument off that because it never happened and it never will. It's a weak argument. I would hope you are more intelligent than that.

 

[duba169]

If I was really tall and good at basketball I could have won with shaq.

Just sayin'

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by The Natural Mystic


What you are saying is all imaginary son. That !!#! makes no sense. Speaking in "if's is the weakest argument anyone can bring up. The fact of the matter is Kobe was the person who was on the team and who produced. That's FACT. HE won the rings! "If lebron, if T-mac, if Iverson" is all imaginary. You cannot base an argument off that because it never happened and it never will. It's a weak argument. I would hope you are more intelligent than that.

You seem to find it hard to differentiate between imagination and a claim backed up by arguments.

I have not invented an imaginary player in my head. I am saying that a player of flesh and blood who exists and was clearly better at the same age (a claim that can be backed up by facts), would've won more championships under the same circumstances. LeBron haters have disputed this claim by constantly saying that he is fundamentally incapable of winning a championship. Now that he's done it, you are salty as hell.

The thing is, "what if" claims are CONSTANTLY thrown around in this forum. Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon and Clyde Drexler could've played together on the Blazers had the Blazers done all the right moves. That did not stop people from claiming that together they would've won double digit rings. That's a lot of "imaginary" rings. Len Bias died before he ever got to play an NBA game. That did not stop people from claiming that he would've had a great career. I suppose they just invented an "imaginary" life for him, right? Those are far from the only "what ifs" that get thrown around here. Mine gets extra attention and is ridiculed by the vast legions of Kobe stans because they know that it can be backed up through a comparative analysis of Kobe Bryant and LeBron James at the same ages, where LeBron clearly was a better player. If I had said that Shaun Livingston and Shaq would've won 6 rings together, no one would pay attention to it. But because it was LeBron, they deal with their insecurity through a defensive mechanism of ridicule.

BTW, it is also a FACT that Kobe didn't win more next to Shaq, that he had 2-3 more seasons where he could've won, and on top of that several more seasons with Shaq that were lost forever after he ran Shaq out of L.A. due to his ball hogging and brick chucking in the 2004 finals.

If you want to dispute my claim, explain why exactly you think that LeBron wouldn't have been as good as Kobe instead of simply calling it imagination. Now that's a weak argument.