Magic, Jordan, Kobe and Lebron Vol. First RING numbers.

[quik1987]

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Who said Kobe led the Lakers to 3 rings ? Shaq was clearly the driving force because the Lakers use their 7'2 advantage against other team weakness. But you can't discredit Kobe. He still put up crazy number as a second option

And it's fact Shaq dominated guys like Mutumbo, Dale Davis, Rik Smith etc lol because he play 2 feet from the rim and his defenders were inferior. Who was the other better Centers in the early 2000s ? Did Shaq dominated a prime Hakeem ? How come the Magics with Penny and Shaq didn't win? That's right. Sit down

All we wanted to hear is admit that Kobe was 2nd Banana and hanging on to Shaq's cape in the Finals.

Thank you.

Kobe's numbers as 2nd option were horrendous in those 2000 finals.

 

[acbboyz84]

Originally Posted by quik1987

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Who said Kobe led the Lakers to 3 rings ? Shaq was clearly the driving force because the Lakers use their 7'2 advantage against other team weakness. But you can't discredit Kobe. He still put up crazy number as a second option

And it's fact Shaq dominated guys like Mutumbo, Dale Davis, Rik Smith etc lol because he play 2 feet from the rim and his defenders were inferior. Who was the other better Centers in the early 2000s ? Did Shaq dominated a prime Hakeem ? How come the Magics with Penny and Shaq didn't win? That's right. Sit down

All we wanted to hear is admit that Kobe was 2nd Banana and hanging on to Shaq's cape in the Finals.

Thank you.

Kobe's numbers as 2nd option were horrendous in those 2000 finals.

Did i said he was MVP and 1st option ? Whatever shots you throw at Kobe still don't change the fact Kobe earn his name on those rings. Written in stone

Blazer > Pacers. Without Kobe Lakers lose to Blazer

Funny how you try to make Kobe look small by cheap derogatory quote like " hanging on Shaq cape" as if he's a role player .
lol

 

[quik1987]

15.6 ppg on .367 shooting
4.6 rpg
4.2 apg

for the series

sure look like role player numbers.

 

[prison mike]

Originally Posted by SosaP23

Originally Posted by prison mike

Originally Posted by SosaP23

It must really burn your soul knowing lebron is better than kobe huh?

Weren't you the same idiot that was making up future awards for lebron earlier in the thread and trying to say those were more impressive than what Kobe has ACTUALLY accomplished?

Go sit down child.

You're an idiot I said "if" lebron wins 3 rings & get 3 finals mvps then he can surpass kobe, get off my damn d*** & kobe's d*** got damn! 

Again, these imaginary accomplishments. Where they do that at?!?!?

 

[prison mike]

Originally Posted by quik1987

Originally Posted by CashBanks

How do you mute cats this prison mike dude has to go

"Interact" under the avy

Heat fans (read: bron stans) can't take the heat.

 

[gottigotit6]

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Originally Posted by gottigotit6

And your argument that Shaq got the MVP because he played against centers that couldn't guard him just adds to how dominant Shaq was, not why Kobe didn't get the MVP.  No one could guard Shaq in his prime, including Hakeem.  Look at the 1995-1996 finals as reference.  That is why Shaq was so dominant but you seemed so set on pulling everything in Kobes favor that your telling us Shaq only dominated against Mutombo, Smits, Macculloch as if he only dominated in the finals.  Its amazing to me how Laker fans forget what Shaq did for the Lakers as soon as Kobe won his fourth ring.  Its like dudes started tellin themselves Kobe led the Lakers to that three peat.  Simply amazing 

Who said Kobe led the Lakers to 3 rings ? Shaq was clearly the driving force because the Lakers use their 7'2 advantage against other team weakness. But you can't discredit Kobe. He still put up crazy number as a second option

And it's fact Shaq dominated guys like Mutumbo, Dale Davis, Rik Smith etc lol because he play 2 feet from the rim and his defenders were inferior. Who was the other better Centers in the early 2000s ? Did Shaq dominated a prime Hakeem ? How come the Magics with Penny and Shaq didn't win? That's right. Sit down

I didnt say Shaq dominated Hakeem, I said Hakeem couldnt guard Shaq and Shaq couldnt guard Hakeem.  They both put up huge offensive numbers.  You make the most ridiculous arguments Ive ever heard. "how come the magics with penny and shaq didnt win"  Because Houston had a better team.  Shaq put up #'s against any center and thas the point I made that flew over your head.

 

[misterp0315]

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Originally Posted by quik1987

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Who said Kobe led the Lakers to 3 rings ? Shaq was clearly the driving force because the Lakers use their 7'2 advantage against other team weakness. But you can't discredit Kobe. He still put up crazy number as a second option

And it's fact Shaq dominated guys like Mutumbo, Dale Davis, Rik Smith etc lol because he play 2 feet from the rim and his defenders were inferior. Who was the other better Centers in the early 2000s ? Did Shaq dominated a prime Hakeem ? How come the Magics with Penny and Shaq didn't win? That's right. Sit down

All we wanted to hear is admit that Kobe was 2nd Banana and hanging on to Shaq's cape in the Finals.



Thank you.



Kobe's numbers as 2nd option were horrendous in those 2000 finals.

Did i said he was MVP and 1st option ? Whatever shots you throw at Kobe still don't change the fact Kobe earn his name on those rings. Written in stone

Blazer > Pacers. Without Kobe Lakers lose to Blazer

Funny how you try to make Kobe look small by cheap derogatory quote like " hanging on Shaq cape" as if he's a role player .
lol

Game 1...Shaq went off. 43 points and 19 rebounds on the way to a blowout. Feed Shaq. He couldn't be stopped. No brainer. Lakers win. Kobe - 38 MIN, 6-13 FG, 0-2 3FG, 2-2 FT, 3 REB, 5 AST, 1 STL, 2 BLK, 2 TO, 14 PTS
Game 2...Kobe got hurt early. Lakers still win. 40 points and 20 rebounds from Shaq. Kobe...9 MIN, 1-3 FG, 0-1 3FG, 0-0 FT, 1 REB, 4 AST, 0 STL, 1 BLK, 0 TO, 2 PTS
Game 3...DNP. Pacers win.
Game 4...clutch performance by Kobe. Win. Took over once Shaq fouled out. 47 MIN, 14-27 FG, 0-0 3FG, 0-0 FT, 4 REB, 5 AST, 1 STL, 2 BLK, 3 TO, 28 PTS
Game 5...Lakers lost bad. Kobe played bad. 37 MIN, 4-20 FG, 0-1 3FG, 0-0 FT, 5 REB, 3 AST, 2 STL, 0 BLK, 0 TO, 8 PTS
Game 6...Kobe hit 5 clutch FTs in the last minute of the game. 45 MIN, 8-27 FG, 2-6 3FG, 8-9 FT, 10 REB, 4 AST, 1 STL, 2 BLK, 1 TO, 26 PTS

Kobe Bryant’s 2000 NBA Finals averages (5 games):

15.6 points per game
4.3 rebounds per game
4.2 assists per game
44.2 minutes per game
41.25 field goal percentage

At that time of his career, he wasn't a 15/4/4 guy. Period. Kobe's numbers clearly suffered from Shaq's wild game, Kobe getting hurt early in game 2, and playing awful in game 5.

However, Shaq was clearly the man. Kobe was clearly the 2nd option. Regardless...saying stuff like he doesn't deserve the ring is crazy. He had plenty of big games, big moments, and clutch moments in the 2000 Finals and playoffs as a whole and averaged 26/6/5 over the duration of the 3 peat.

Discredit all you want though.

 

[gottigotit6]

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Originally Posted by gottigotit6

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

So Kobe was Robin according to you. And what ? It still don't take away the fact he put in work and helped Shaq/Lakers win. If you don't agree then you're blinded by your hate. It doesn't matter who win Final MVP. Are you saying all Kobe works get completely sweep under the rug ? LOL

You still haven't answer my question. According to your idiotic theory. Only the Final MVP deserve the name on the ring. Any other player don't get any credit ? lol Did Kobe win those championship or not ? Answer it pls

Let me hear your excuse now hahahhaha . And btw you're not reintroduce history to nobody. You're from the DMV area. You didnt watch the 00-03 Laker 82 games a season plus playoff . You ain't fooling nobody. Maybe you should go back and watch the replays

Too easy dude

What exactly are you trying to argue?  Dude never said Kobe didnt deserve his first, he said Shaq was the leader of the team, you quoted him and then made the same exact claim that he just answered.  
Your argument that the western conference finals and semifinals was more important that the actual finals which is why Kobe didnt get the finals MVP might be the dumbest thing I've ever read.  And I've been watching the Lakers for 20+ years. 

Now Hold on champ. I didn't said it was more important. I said it was a lot tougher than the Finals therefore you can discredit Kobe effort in those wcf and semi . And in Finals Kobe still put up a great effort in game 4.

Are you saying the Pacer series was tougher to win than the WCF series vs the Blazer ?

Are you suggesting the Pacers was a better team than the Blazer. Are you suggesting the Pacers post more threath to the Lakers defense? LOL

The same can be address for the 02 Kings. That team was way better than the fluke 02 Nets Finals team . In a sense. The WCF  was the real Finals

What Duece King was trying to do is discrediting Kobe to make it seem like he was insignificant and therefore didn't earn his 3 rings

So Kobe didnt try against the Pacers Sixers or Nets because they werent as good as the Kings or Blazers

 

 

[the natural mystic]

Originally Posted by Deuce King

LOL Kobe didn't have a few good games. He was a force

Why wasn't this so called "force" ever awarded a regular season MVP or even a Finals MVP trophy during that run then?? 

lol So according to duece king. Any other players beside the Finals MVP doesn't deserve a championship ring even if they work their @%@ off for the team to win the ring.

You shouldn't assume champ, that's bad for business.  When did I ever say only the Finals MVP deserves a championship ring and everyone else doesn't??  I never did.  Once again you Kobe lovers are looking for to gain sympathy, but it aint working.  At the end of the day Shaq was Batman/big brother and Kobe was Robin/little brother.  Nothing wrong with that of course but facts are facts.  Simply put, you dudes are trying to make Kobe bigger or more than what he was during that timeframe, that's the bottomline of the matter here.  I'm just here to reintroduce you dudes to history and help right your wrongs

.

See when you say something like this, you are undermining the work that Kobe put it. Just flat out.


So, which player was running the show or running the team then, was it Shaq, Kobe, or somebody else??

Why are you obsessed with this Robin label?



Well I am the one that first gave him that label on here.  Just letting folks know what the deal is. 

and you think Kobe only took over 5 games in 3 years?


That's all you dudes are mentioning.  Whenever the value of Kobe is mentioned during those 3 years all you and the rest of the Kobe brigade mention is 5 games or so, I'm going off of what you dudes are providing.  If you have more to add, let me and the rest of the board know. 

I will refuse to continue this discussion.



Kobe lovers are on the run.................................*Jeezy*.........."AND I LOVE IT!!*



Lol you are a funny style dude man. Kobe lover? You love to label people huh?

do your thing playa or should I say "champ."

 

[statis22]

2000 Pacers were good, some of y'all are selling that team short. Other than the 2002 Kings and maybe the 00 Blazers they gave the 3 peat Lakers everything they wanted.

 

[acbboyz84]

Originally Posted by gottigotit6

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Originally Posted by gottigotit6


What exactly are you trying to argue?  Dude never said Kobe didnt deserve his first, he said Shaq was the leader of the team, you quoted him and then made the same exact claim that he just answered.  
Your argument that the western conference finals and semifinals was more important that the actual finals which is why Kobe didnt get the finals MVP might be the dumbest thing I've ever read.  And I've been watching the Lakers for 20+ years. 

Now Hold on champ. I didn't said it was more important. I said it was a lot tougher than the Finals therefore you can discredit Kobe effort in those wcf and semi . And in Finals Kobe still put up a great effort in game 4.

Are you saying the Pacer series was tougher to win than the WCF series vs the Blazer ?

Are you suggesting the Pacers was a better team than the Blazer. Are you suggesting the Pacers post more threath to the Lakers defense? LOL

The same can be address for the 02 Kings. That team was way better than the fluke 02 Nets Finals team . In a sense. The WCF  was the real Finals

What Duece King was trying to do is discrediting Kobe to make it seem like he was insignificant and therefore didn't earn his 3 rings

So Kobe didnt try against the Pacers Sixers or Nets because they werent as good as the Kings or Blazers

 

Don't try to answer a question by asking a question dude. Answer me which team was harder for the Lakers to beat ? Blazer in the WCF or the Pacer in the Finals ? But to answer your question i think the Lakers could still have won the 2000 Finals even if one of the Lakers star didn't try 100%. Like i said it was a lot harder for the Lakers to beat the Spurs, Kings , Blazer during those years than the weak Eastern conference champ team like Nets, Pacers, Philly . All Lakers did was just dump the ball inside to Shaq. Rik Smith and Dale Davis couldn't stand a chance lol. Can't say that for the Blazer , Spurs or Kings series. It would take more than Shaq to beat them. Without Kobe effort they won't win any of the 3 rings.

Kobe was hurt in game 2 of the 2000s Finals and didn't play. I'm sure you know how it feel when you play on a broken ankle the next game.

 

[acbboyz84]

Originally Posted by quik1987

15.6 ppg on .367 shooting
4.6 rpg
4.2 apg

for the series

sure look like role player numbers.

What about the playoffs ? Was Pacer harder to beat than Blazer ? lol Did you watch the playoff that year ? Yea keep ducking from the question

Remember that was a 21 years old Kobe who wasn't even in his prime yet and he still put up great performance on playoff and a historic game 4 in Finals when Shaq was out

Next

 

[acbboyz84]

Originally Posted by gottigotit6

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Originally Posted by gottigotit6

And your argument that Shaq got the MVP because he played against centers that couldn't guard him just adds to how dominant Shaq was, not why Kobe didn't get the MVP.  No one could guard Shaq in his prime, including Hakeem.  Look at the 1995-1996 finals as reference.  That is why Shaq was so dominant but you seemed so set on pulling everything in Kobes favor that your telling us Shaq only dominated against Mutombo, Smits, Macculloch as if he only dominated in the finals.  Its amazing to me how Laker fans forget what Shaq did for the Lakers as soon as Kobe won his fourth ring.  Its like dudes started tellin themselves Kobe led the Lakers to that three peat.  Simply amazing 

Who said Kobe led the Lakers to 3 rings ? Shaq was clearly the driving force because the Lakers use their 7'2 advantage against other team weakness. But you can't discredit Kobe. He still put up crazy number as a second option

And it's fact Shaq dominated guys like Mutumbo, Dale Davis, Rik Smith etc lol because he play 2 feet from the rim and his defenders were inferior. Who was the other better Centers in the early 2000s ? Did Shaq dominated a prime Hakeem ? How come the Magics with Penny and Shaq didn't win? That's right. Sit down

I didnt say Shaq dominated Hakeem, I said Hakeem couldnt guard Shaq and Shaq couldnt guard Hakeem.  They both put up huge offensive numbers.  You make the most ridiculous arguments Ive ever heard. "how come the magics with penny and shaq didnt win"  Because Houston had a better team.  Shaq put up #'s against any center and thas the point I made that flew over your head.

Read again champ. I asked you did Shaq dominated a prime Hakeem ? Nope.

You still didn't answer who were the other better center than Shaq in early 2000s. Yea it was so hard for Shaq to work guy like Rik Smith and Dale Davis lol while playing 2 feet away from the rim.

 

[vanexellent]

Ok, so sorting through this mess of a topic this has become, it appears it stands as this:
1)Agree all around that Shaq did lead the Lakers in the 2000 Finals and the 3Peat as a whole.

2)Kobe is either the sidekick, second best player or just a role player with no more effect on the team then say John Salley was for that team.

While I did try to contribute to the argument, I think arguing over something 10 years old is dumb. No person is taking Kobe's ring away and try as some might, Kobe did more for that team then just being a role player and thats not to dis role players because role players clearly have had vital parts in all championships. If not for role players like Chalmers, Marion, Steve Kerr, John Paxon, Horry, Mychal Thompson, Brian Shaw etc stepping up in the regular season, playoffs and Finals to help the leaders (Shaq, Jordan, Hakeem, Isiah, Bird, Magic/Kareem's for example) and their second/third best players (Kobe, Pippen, Worthy, McHale for example) then no is winning anything. No one wins by themselves including Jordan, Shaq and Hakeem.

 

[gottigotit6]

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Originally Posted by gottigotit6

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Who said Kobe led the Lakers to 3 rings ? Shaq was clearly the driving force because the Lakers use their 7'2 advantage against other team weakness. But you can't discredit Kobe. He still put up crazy number as a second option

And it's fact Shaq dominated guys like Mutumbo, Dale Davis, Rik Smith etc lol because he play 2 feet from the rim and his defenders were inferior. Who was the other better Centers in the early 2000s ? Did Shaq dominated a prime Hakeem ? How come the Magics with Penny and Shaq didn't win? That's right. Sit down

I didnt say Shaq dominated Hakeem, I said Hakeem couldnt guard Shaq and Shaq couldnt guard Hakeem.  They both put up huge offensive numbers.  You make the most ridiculous arguments Ive ever heard. "how come the magics with penny and shaq didnt win"  Because Houston had a better team.  Shaq put up #'s against any center and thas the point I made that flew over your head.

Read again champ. I asked you did Shaq dominated a prime Hakeem ? Nope.

In 94-95 Hakeem put up a career high in pts (27.8 pg), he was DPOY the previous two seasons.  Here are the numbers Shaq put up in the finals that year which was his 3rd year in the league :
Game 1 : 26 pts 16 rebs 9 assissts

Game 2 : 33 pts 12 rebs 7 assissts

Game 3 : 28 pts 10 rebs 6 assissts

Game 4 : 25 pts 12 rebs 5 blocks

You can decide for yourself if that is domination. Champ.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Originally Posted by quik1987

15.6 ppg on .367 shooting
4.6 rpg
4.2 apg

for the series

sure look like role player numbers.

What about the playoffs ? Was Pacer harder to beat than Blazer ? lol Did you watch the playoff that year ? Yea keep ducking from the question

Remember that was a 21 years old Kobe who wasn't even in his prime yet and he still put up great performance on playoff and a historic game 4 in Finals when Shaq was out

Next

Jason Terry had a nice game 6 in the Finals last year when Dirk couldn't throw it in the ocean.

He was a role player just like Kobe was that year.

 

[acbboyz84]

Originally Posted by SneakerPro

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Originally Posted by quik1987

15.6 ppg on .367 shooting
4.6 rpg
4.2 apg

for the series

sure look like role player numbers.

What about the playoffs ? Was Pacer harder to beat than Blazer ? lol Did you watch the playoff that year ? Yea keep ducking from the question

Remember that was a 21 years old Kobe who wasn't even in his prime yet and he still put up great performance on playoff and a historic game 4 in Finals when Shaq was out

Next

Jason Terry had a nice game 6 in the Finals last year when Dirk couldn't throw it in the ocean.

He was a role player just like Kobe was that year.

Look a Dallas fan comparing Jason Terry game 6 to Kobe game 4 and completely ignored Kobe performance through out the playoff of 2000s

At saying Kobe was role player

Most of you dudes must be 12 years old in april and may of 2000 or something . Look like i have to bust out a few more videos of what Kobe did

 

[misterp0315]

When did the Michael Jordan comparisons come around for Kobe? I'm sure it was while he was playing alongside Shaq.

What role player gets compared to MJ?

Continue.

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

It's ignorant to just say shaq carried Kobe or to say replace any all star wing player and they would have as much success. That's plain ignorance because 1. there wasn't a top tier guard like Kobe who could play both ends of the court. Vince, McGrady and AI couldn't play defense like Kobe to save their lives. 2. You have no idea how they would work in Phil's system.

It is most definitely NOT ignorant to say this. There is ton of evidence to back up this claim.



The proof can be seen with how Kobe did after Shaq left and was essentially in the same situation as those guys, having to carry the teams on his back. And he didn't do a damn thing. He had great scoring numbers on a ton of shots and a mediocre field goal percentage, just like those other players. Two first rounds and a lottery, nothing different whatsoever from any of those other early 00s stars, team-success wise. Blew a 3-1 lead in the series just like McGrady. But that's just how Kobe's career developed, one side of the story. In 2006, Shaq who was MUCH worse than the 1999-2002 Shaq won with Wade. If prime Shaq could win with Kobe and a past his prime Shaq could win with Wade, saying that a prime Shaq could've won with McGrady/Iverson/Carter/Ray Allen/Pierce/Kidd/healthy Hill is far from "ignorant".



And how the hell can you be so certain that they wouldn't even be better under Phil's system. Look at pre-Lakers and post-Lakers Lamar Odom for example. He had his best season under Phil. What in the world makes you think that they would be automatically worse in the triangle offense. I happen to think that prime Ray Allen would be DEADLY with Shaq in the triangle.



Also, I don't know if you've noticed but Kobe became a significantly worse defender as soon as Shaq left L.A. I love how this is conveniently ignored by Kobe stanboys. There are two reasons for him declining defensively post-Shaq. First, because now he had to carry the offensive load on his own and had to spend more energy on the offensive end of the court. Secondly, Shaq's presence made it easier for him to play defense. Even though Shaq was not Olajuwon or David Robinson defensively, his very presence scared the #$#% out of players when it came to driving to the basket. Playing perimeter defense next to a guy like this is a great deal easier. Tracy McGrady was a phenomenal defender his last year with the Raptors. He drew comparisons to Scottie Pippen mainly for his defensive abilities. But as soon as he left Toronto and came to Orlando, he was a mainly offensive player who played little D, just like Kobe post-Shaq. I know that McGrady would've been a great defender if he had Shaq in the post.



Overall, saying that Shaq would've won with McGrady/Iverson/Carter/Ray Allen/Pierce/Kidd/healthy Hill isn't so much a comment about Kobe.. Or any of these players. It's mostly about Shaq and just how dominant compared to any player in the league. No matter what you can say about Kobe, he was still a star perimeter player. There were several of those, and Kobe was constantly compared to those other stars and vice versa. But he had one argument over them: Rings (because of Shaq). Unlike Kobe, the perimeter star player, there was only ONE Shaq in the league. This cannot be emphasized enough. You can glorify Kobe and call him "unstoppable", but because he was a perimeter player, he could NEVER be classified as being the same kind of unstoppable as Shaq was. The rim itself would stop Kobe and his mediocre field goal percentages plenty of games.

Shaq was so dominant beause he got got Mutumbo, Rik Smith, Dale Davis guarding him. LOl look at you trying to hype up Shaq as if Shaq dominated Hakeem in the post. The Lakers took advantage of the other team lack of inside presence. Simple as that. Shag get to score 30, 40 because he got inferior center guarding him

Without Kobe performance in the perimeter they wouldn't get past the Spurs , Blazer, Kings.

Doesn't matter how you twist it. Kobe won 3 rings vs your Lebron and his 6th imaginary rings

According to your theory. I can replace Kobe on the 90s Knicks . They would have won several rings too right ? Kobe would have another 2 or 3 imaginary rings now right ?

Hahhahahahaha




You're still proving my point for me again and again. Thank you for pointing out the weak centers Shaq played against and showing the luxury Kobe had of playing with a player that nobody could stop.

Doesn't matter how you twist it: Kobe had the luxury of playing with prime Shaq for 6 seasons and he only won 3 rings in that period. Plus he prevented himself from playing with Shaq more seasons due to his hero ball and his brick-chucking in the 2004 NBA finals, only to prove how helpless he was without Shaq by "leading" the Lakers to lottery and two first round exits in the following 3 seasons.

Prime Shaq won a championship despite Kobe putting up crappy numbers like this in the 2000 finals that aren't even worthy of a 2nd option: 15.6 ppg on .367 shooting, 4.6 rpg and 4.2 apg
Past his prime Shaq who put up numbers that weren't nearly as good as those between 1999-2002 won a championship with Wade in 2006.

Yet it's ridiculous to say that prime Shaq would have won with prime McGrady/prime Carter/prime Iverson/prime Ray Allen/prime Kidd, let alone prime LeBron?

Funny how you accuse me of "would've" arguments while you say that the Lakers "would've" been out of the playoffs without Kobe by bringing up some random Kobe game where he played well. I can mention a ton of examples like this of Lakers role players stepping up in various games. Not to mention Gasol and Artest bailing a 6-24 brick-chucking Kobe in game 7 of the 2010 finals and Derek Fisher bailing him out in game 3. We've sure seen how lost the Lakers were without the almighty Kobe in game 2 of the 2000 finals where he played 9 minutes.

Keep dreaming Kobe stan in your imagiation land where Kobe didn't piggyback ride Shaq for those 3 championships.

 

[quik1987]

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Originally Posted by quik1987

15.6 ppg on .367 shooting

4.6 rpg

4.2 apg



for the series



sure look like role player numbers.

What about the playoffs ? Was Pacer harder to beat than Blazer ? lol Did you watch the playoff that year ? Yea keep ducking from the question

Remember that was a 21 years old Kobe who wasn't even in his prime yet and he still put up great performance on playoff and a historic game 4 in Finals when Shaq was out

Next

game 4: This was the game when Kobe stepped up and hit some big shots in over time. Kobe played pretty good and this game and had 28 points on 51% shooting, but Shaq had 36 points and 21 rebounds.

on his best night in the series,

STILL second banana

 

[acbboyz84]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl





It is most definitely NOT ignorant to say this. There is ton of evidence to back up this claim.



The proof can be seen with how Kobe did after Shaq left and was essentially in the same situation as those guys, having to carry the teams on his back. And he didn't do a damn thing. He had great scoring numbers on a ton of shots and a mediocre field goal percentage, just like those other players. Two first rounds and a lottery, nothing different whatsoever from any of those other early 00s stars, team-success wise. Blew a 3-1 lead in the series just like McGrady. But that's just how Kobe's career developed, one side of the story. In 2006, Shaq who was MUCH worse than the 1999-2002 Shaq won with Wade. If prime Shaq could win with Kobe and a past his prime Shaq could win with Wade, saying that a prime Shaq could've won with McGrady/Iverson/Carter/Ray Allen/Pierce/Kidd/healthy Hill is far from "ignorant".



And how the hell can you be so certain that they wouldn't even be better under Phil's system. Look at pre-Lakers and post-Lakers Lamar Odom for example. He had his best season under Phil. What in the world makes you think that they would be automatically worse in the triangle offense. I happen to think that prime Ray Allen would be DEADLY with Shaq in the triangle.



Also, I don't know if you've noticed but Kobe became a significantly worse defender as soon as Shaq left L.A. I love how this is conveniently ignored by Kobe stanboys. There are two reasons for him declining defensively post-Shaq. First, because now he had to carry the offensive load on his own and had to spend more energy on the offensive end of the court. Secondly, Shaq's presence made it easier for him to play defense. Even though Shaq was not Olajuwon or David Robinson defensively, his very presence scared the #$#% out of players when it came to driving to the basket. Playing perimeter defense next to a guy like this is a great deal easier. Tracy McGrady was a phenomenal defender his last year with the Raptors. He drew comparisons to Scottie Pippen mainly for his defensive abilities. But as soon as he left Toronto and came to Orlando, he was a mainly offensive player who played little D, just like Kobe post-Shaq. I know that McGrady would've been a great defender if he had Shaq in the post.



Overall, saying that Shaq would've won with McGrady/Iverson/Carter/Ray Allen/Pierce/Kidd/healthy Hill isn't so much a comment about Kobe.. Or any of these players. It's mostly about Shaq and just how dominant compared to any player in the league. No matter what you can say about Kobe, he was still a star perimeter player. There were several of those, and Kobe was constantly compared to those other stars and vice versa. But he had one argument over them: Rings (because of Shaq). Unlike Kobe, the perimeter star player, there was only ONE Shaq in the league. This cannot be emphasized enough. You can glorify Kobe and call him "unstoppable", but because he was a perimeter player, he could NEVER be classified as being the same kind of unstoppable as Shaq was. The rim itself would stop Kobe and his mediocre field goal percentages plenty of games.

Shaq was so dominant beause he got got Mutumbo, Rik Smith, Dale Davis guarding him. LOl look at you trying to hype up Shaq as if Shaq dominated Hakeem in the post. The Lakers took advantage of the other team lack of inside presence. Simple as that. Shag get to score 30, 40 because he got inferior center guarding him

Without Kobe performance in the perimeter they wouldn't get past the Spurs , Blazer, Kings.

Doesn't matter how you twist it. Kobe won 3 rings vs your Lebron and his 6th imaginary rings

According to your theory. I can replace Kobe on the 90s Knicks . They would have won several rings too right ? Kobe would have another 2 or 3 imaginary rings now right ?

Hahhahahahaha

You're still proving my point for me again and again. Thank you for pointing out the weak centers Shaq played against and showing the luxury Kobe had of playing with a player that nobody could stop.

Doesn't matter how you twist it: Kobe had the luxury of playing with prime Shaq for 6 seasons and he only won 3 rings in that period. Plus he prevented himself from playing with Shaq more seasons due to his hero ball and his brick-chucking in the 2004 NBA finals, only to prove how helpless he was without Shaq by "leading" the Lakers to lottery and two first round exits in the following 3 seasons.

Prime Shaq won a championship despite Kobe putting up crappy numbers like this in the 2000 finals that aren't even worthy of a 2nd option: 15.6 ppg on .367 shooting, 4.6 rpg and 4.2 apg
Past his prime Shaq who put up numbers that weren't nearly as good as those between 1999-2002 won a championship with Wade in 2006.

Yet it's ridiculous to say that prime Shaq would have won with prime McGrady/prime Carter/prime Iverson/prime Ray Allen/prime Kidd, let alone prime LeBron?

Funny how you accuse me of "would've" arguments while you say that the Lakers "would've" been out of the playoffs without Kobe by bringing up some random Kobe game where he played well. I can mention a ton of examples like this of Lakers role players stepping up in various games. Not to mention Gasol and Artest bailing a 6-24 brick-chucking Kobe in game 7 of the 2010 finals and Derek Fisher bailing him out in game 3. We've sure seen how lost the Lakers were without the almighty Kobe in game 2 of the 2000 finals where he played 9 minutes.

Keep dreaming Kobe stan in your imagiation land where Kobe didn't piggyback ride Shaq for those 3 championsh

You proved nothing. Sit your @! down. Yes it is ridiculous to say Lebron would have , Tmac would have etc. Kobe have real actual proven championships. He was there and his work was there. You can't take that away from history. There is no actual evident of Tmac, VC Lebron or whoever  etc would have won with Shaq.

And i have said 1000 times without Kobe's help. Shaq won't win 3 rings. Same with Kobe. Without Shaq Kobe won't win 3 rings. Get that through your tiny ugly head . Your brain is so small that you can't see the big picture.

You keep mentioning Kobe performing in 2000 Finals and ignore Kobe for the entire playoff and regular season number lol . Especially the WCF where the real challenge happened. Kobe 15.6 ppg in Finals is your weak argument ?

You keep saying stupid crap like "Kobe piggyback ride Shaq" as if all Kobe had to do was sitting on the bench like Luke Walton and get his rings lol. Do you know what the term piggy back ride is ? That term is use for guys that sit on the bench not for a force like Kobe. I posted videos of what Kobe did to help the team won championship. It's actual, real proof. Not stupidity that come out of your stupid brain like Lebron would have , Tmac would have etc argument lol.  What a complete joke view from a  Kobe hater/troll hhaha

Lebron would have been better than MJ right now right ?. Replace Kobe with Lebron . He'd have 6 or 8 rings by now plus the one he just won with Miami. That's 9 rings total . Lebron is better than Jordan . Wow he's so great

 

[krazyrodzilla]

During their first title run and for the entire 2000 playoff run Shaq 30 PPG and Kobe 22 PPG.

 

[acbboyz84]

Originally Posted by quik1987

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Originally Posted by quik1987

15.6 ppg on .367 shooting

4.6 rpg

4.2 apg



for the series



sure look like role player numbers.

What about the playoffs ? Was Pacer harder to beat than Blazer ? lol Did you watch the playoff that year ? Yea keep ducking from the question

Remember that was a 21 years old Kobe who wasn't even in his prime yet and he still put up great performance on playoff and a historic game 4 in Finals when Shaq was out

Next

game 4: This was the game when Kobe stepped up and hit some big shots in over time. Kobe played pretty good and this game and had 28 points on 51% shooting, but Shaq had 36 points and 21 rebounds.

on his best night in the series,

STILL second banana

And what ? Didn't i already tell you to look at the videos i posted of what Kobe did ? Championship is won by 1 man ?

Man it's getting redundant over here.

 

[PRIME]

Originally Posted by Do Be Doo

Originally Posted by Essential1

They are 4 great players, 2 still playing.. When it is all said and done.. Those 4 will make up 80% of the Top 5 greatest NBA Players to ever live.

Kobe will never be top 5.

Jellybean isnt even a top 5 laker.

have a seat.

Did I really just read this?

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler [+]

Spoiler

Goodnight

Whats funny about this discussion is that everyone is coming down on Kobe because he was playing with the most dominant big man of ALL TIME who couldn't be stopped even if you brought the rim down on him, literally...

Its obvious that the offense was being run through Shaq, what the *%%$ was Kobe supposed to do? He averaged 21 points per game. Decent numbers to put along side Shaq's 30 ppg average. 

What do you expect from Kobe at age 20? To just come in and out perform a prime Shaq in an offense that obviously caters to the man? Hell no. You play your position and let the big man go to work. 

I mean damn Tim Duncan put up the same numbers as Kobe during his first ring. I don't see anyone throwing him any shade... 

Sometimes it seems like dudes come for Kobe's neck for things the man can't control. If he would have stolen the spotlight in those finals and lost it all bammas would be on here typing up essays about how Kobe should have let Shaq lead to team to victory. But since Kobe sat back and played Robin during his early years he catches fire for it. Mind = blown. 

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by ACBboyz84

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl







It is most definitely NOT ignorant to say this. There is ton of evidence to back up this claim.





The proof can be seen with how Kobe did after Shaq left and was essentially in the same situation as those guys, having to carry the teams on his back. And he didn't do a damn thing. He had great scoring numbers on a ton of shots and a mediocre field goal percentage, just like those other players. Two first rounds and a lottery, nothing different whatsoever from any of those other early 00s stars, team-success wise. Blew a 3-1 lead in the series just like McGrady. But that's just how Kobe's career developed, one side of the story. In 2006, Shaq who was MUCH worse than the 1999-2002 Shaq won with Wade. If prime Shaq could win with Kobe and a past his prime Shaq could win with Wade, saying that a prime Shaq could've won with McGrady/Iverson/Carter/Ray Allen/Pierce/Kidd/healthy Hill is far from "ignorant".





And how the hell can you be so certain that they wouldn't even be better under Phil's system. Look at pre-Lakers and post-Lakers Lamar Odom for example. He had his best season under Phil. What in the world makes you think that they would be automatically worse in the triangle offense. I happen to think that prime Ray Allen would be DEADLY with Shaq in the triangle.





Also, I don't know if you've noticed but Kobe became a significantly worse defender as soon as Shaq left L.A. I love how this is conveniently ignored by Kobe stanboys. There are two reasons for him declining defensively post-Shaq. First, because now he had to carry the offensive load on his own and had to spend more energy on the offensive end of the court. Secondly, Shaq's presence made it easier for him to play defense. Even though Shaq was not Olajuwon or David Robinson defensively, his very presence scared the #$#% out of players when it came to driving to the basket. Playing perimeter defense next to a guy like this is a great deal easier. Tracy McGrady was a phenomenal defender his last year with the Raptors. He drew comparisons to Scottie Pippen mainly for his defensive abilities. But as soon as he left Toronto and came to Orlando, he was a mainly offensive player who played little D, just like Kobe post-Shaq. I know that McGrady would've been a great defender if he had Shaq in the post.





Overall, saying that Shaq would've won with McGrady/Iverson/Carter/Ray Allen/Pierce/Kidd/healthy Hill isn't so much a comment about Kobe.. Or any of these players. It's mostly about Shaq and just how dominant compared to any player in the league. No matter what you can say about Kobe, he was still a star perimeter player. There were several of those, and Kobe was constantly compared to those other stars and vice versa. But he had one argument over them: Rings (because of Shaq). Unlike Kobe, the perimeter star player, there was only ONE Shaq in the league. This cannot be emphasized enough. You can glorify Kobe and call him "unstoppable", but because he was a perimeter player, he could NEVER be classified as being the same kind of unstoppable as Shaq was. The rim itself would stop Kobe and his mediocre field goal percentages plenty of games.

Shaq was so dominant beause he got got Mutumbo, Rik Smith, Dale Davis guarding him. LOl look at you trying to hype up Shaq as if Shaq dominated Hakeem in the post. The Lakers took advantage of the other team lack of inside presence. Simple as that. Shag get to score 30, 40 because he got inferior center guarding him

Without Kobe performance in the perimeter they wouldn't get past the Spurs , Blazer, Kings.

Doesn't matter how you twist it. Kobe won 3 rings vs your Lebron and his 6th imaginary rings

According to your theory. I can replace Kobe on the 90s Knicks . They would have won several rings too right ? Kobe would have another 2 or 3 imaginary rings now right ?

Hahhahahahaha

You're still proving my point for me again and again. Thank you for pointing out the weak centers Shaq played against and showing the luxury Kobe had of playing with a player that nobody could stop.



Doesn't matter how you twist it: Kobe had the luxury of playing with prime Shaq for 6 seasons and he only won 3 rings in that period. Plus he prevented himself from playing with Shaq more seasons due to his hero ball and his brick-chucking in the 2004 NBA finals, only to prove how helpless he was without Shaq by "leading" the Lakers to lottery and two first round exits in the following 3 seasons.



Prime Shaq won a championship despite Kobe putting up crappy numbers like this in the 2000 finals that aren't even worthy of a 2nd option: 15.6 ppg on .367 shooting, 4.6 rpg and 4.2 apg

Past his prime Shaq who put up numbers that weren't nearly as good as those between 1999-2002 won a championship with Wade in 2006.



Yet it's ridiculous to say that prime Shaq would have won with prime McGrady/prime Carter/prime Iverson/prime Ray Allen/prime Kidd, let alone prime LeBron?



Funny how you accuse me of "would've" arguments while you say that the Lakers "would've" been out of the playoffs without Kobe by bringing up some random Kobe game where he played well. I can mention a ton of examples like this of Lakers role players stepping up in various games. Not to mention Gasol and Artest bailing a 6-24 brick-chucking Kobe in game 7 of the 2010 finals and Derek Fisher bailing him out in game 3. We've sure seen how lost the Lakers were without the almighty Kobe in game 2 of the 2000 finals where he played 9 minutes.



Keep dreaming Kobe stan in your imagiation land where Kobe didn't piggyback ride Shaq for those 3 championsh

You proved nothing. Sit your @! down. Yes it is ridiculous to say Lebron would have , Tmac would have etc. Kobe have real actual proven championships. There is no actual evident of Tmac, VC Lebron or whoever  etc would have won with Shaq.

And i have said 1000 times without Kobe's help. Shaq won't win 3 rings. Same with Kobe. Without Shaq Kobe won't win 3 rings. Get that through your tiny ugly head . Your brain is so small that you can't see the big picture

You keep mentioning Kobe performing in 2000 Finals and ignore Kobe for the entire playoff and regular season number lol . Especially the WCF where the real challenge happened. Kobe 15.6 ppg in Finals is your weak argument ?  lol

You keep saying stupid crap like "Kobe piggyback ride Shaq" as if all Kobe had to do was sitting on the bench like Luke Walton and get his rings lol. Do you know what the term piggy back ride is ? That term is use for guys that sit on the bench not for a force like Kobe. I posted videos of what Kobe did to help the team won championship. It's actual, real proof. Not stupidity that come out of your stupid brain like Lebron would have , Tmac would have etc argument lol.  What a complete joke view from a stupid Kobe hater/troll hhaha

Lebron would have been better than MJ right now. Replace Lebron with Kobe . He'd have 6 or 8 rings right now plus the one he just won with Miami. That's 9 rings total . Lebron is better than Jordan in your imaginary world LOL

How about you providing evidence that Shaq wouldn't have won without Kobe?

If you're going to dismiss any claim backed up by facts as "imagionary" then there's really no evidence that a team consisting of prime Magic, prime Jordan, prime Bird, prime Duncan and prime Shaq would've ever won a single ring. After all, that scenario never actually happened and those players never played together. So I guess claiming otherwise is pure imagination.

This is my evidence:

Exhibit A: The fact that prime Shaq won a championship despite Kobe putting up crappy numbers like this in the 2000 finals: 15.6 ppg on .367 shooting, 4.6 rpg and 4.2 apg, and also won game 2 of the finals where Kobe only played 9 minutes
Exhibit B: The fact that past his prime Shaq who put up numbers that weren't nearly as good as those between 1999-2002 won a championship with Wade in 2006
Exhibit C: The fact that most star perimeter players had seasons that were statistically better than Kobe's 1999-00, when Shaq carried the Lakers to the title. 2000-03 McGrady was at least just as good as 2000-03 Kobe. And I somehow need to prove that LeBron who is a better passer, better rebounder, better defender, more efficient and more consistent scorer and flat out a BETTER BASKETBALL PLAYER THAN KOBE BRYANT would've won with prime Shaq?

You keep bringing up Kobe's better games while conveniently ignoring that other perimeter star players had plenty of good games as well.

And what ABOUT Kobe's 1999-00 regular season and playoff numbers:

Regular season: 22.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 4.9 apg
Playoffs: 21.1 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 4.4 apg

Look at Iverson's, Carter's, Kidd's, Allen's numbers that season. There was nothing statistically substantial to differentiate Kobe from other star perimeter players in those seasons. Shaq was the one who was completely unique and completely irreplaceable.

Kobe missed 16 games in the 1999-00 season. The Lakers' record was 12-4 in those games.
Kobe missed 14 games in the 2000-01 season. The Lakers' record was 11-3 in those games.

Shaq missed 3 games in the 1999-00 season. The Lakers' record was 1-2 in those games.
Shaq missed 8 games in the 2000-01 season. The Lakers' record was 5-3 in those games.

But get this: Shaq missed 15 games in the 2001-02 season. The Lakers record was 7-8 in those games! They were 51-16 with him, in the remaining games. Kobe missed only 2 games that season. By the way, the Lakers record in those two games: 2-0.

Yeah, Shaq was lost without Kobe. It was a complete 50/50 partnership if I ever saw one.

LMAO @ the Kobe needed Shaq, but Shaq needed Kobe angle, like trying to say "see how objective I am by acknowledging that Kobe needed Shaq too". Yeah that partnership was SOOO 50/50.

Jordan never won a ring without Pippen.
Bird never won without McHale/Parish.
Hakeem never won a ring without Kenny Smith.

That doesn't prove a damn thing that one player isn't overwhelmingly more responsible for the team's success. I can say that Kobe and Fisher are 50/50 in those 5 rings as well seeing as how one never won without the other. And again you disregard the fact that a much worse Shaq without Kobe went on to win with the Heat in 2006.