shatterkneesinc
Banned
- 22,524
- 2,383
i think once u reach that 3+ ring realm, the argument diminishes
u start looking at mvps, all nba teams, asg
u start looking at mvps, all nba teams, asg
NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by CP1708,
- Start date
shatterkneesinc
Banned
- 22,524
- 2,383
i think once u reach that 3+ ring realm, the argument diminishes
u start looking at mvps, all nba teams, asg
u start looking at mvps, all nba teams, asg
- 3,398
- 96
Duncan is undoubtedly in the top 10 all time.
He's somewhere in the 7-10 range. I put him just above Shaq and Hakeem.
He's somewhere in the 7-10 range. I put him just above Shaq and Hakeem.
- 3,398
- 96
Duncan is undoubtedly in the top 10 all time.
He's somewhere in the 7-10 range. I put him just above Shaq and Hakeem.
He's somewhere in the 7-10 range. I put him just above Shaq and Hakeem.
- 17,875
- 8,145
You said nothing in response because you can't come up with a response, same rules apply to the rest of the Kobe lovers on here. It was Shaq's team when both Shaq and Kobe were together. 3 championships early in his career, but no Finals MVP, no regular season MVP, and he NEVER averaged the most points per season for any of those teams. Yet Shaq "needed" Kobe..........LOL. More like the other way around champ, little brother always needs big brother growing up.
So how many rings does everybody have then? We have to subtract rings now unless you were the best player of the team?
Can you read kind sir?? Where did I say or suggest we have to subtract rings from players. I said any Kobe lovers opening statement when talking about Kobe's legacy to me shouldn't be "Kobe has 5 rings" because the statement suggests or implies that he was the leader or the main reason he has 5 championships rings. However for the people that watched those games and actually watch that championship run we know better, and more importantly deep down I believe alot of you Kobe lovers know better as well. You guys have just been doing a good job of trying to fool other people and doing a great job of fooling yourselves.
Dude was getting 28 a game, 2nd team all nba for title 2, all nba for title 3, 5th in the MVP voting, and yet he can't count these rings on his resume cuz Shaq was there.
We're giving credit or highlighting being 5th in MVP voting now.......
. You Kobe lovers, what will you dudes think of next.
- 17,875
- 8,145
You said nothing in response because you can't come up with a response, same rules apply to the rest of the Kobe lovers on here. It was Shaq's team when both Shaq and Kobe were together. 3 championships early in his career, but no Finals MVP, no regular season MVP, and he NEVER averaged the most points per season for any of those teams. Yet Shaq "needed" Kobe..........LOL. More like the other way around champ, little brother always needs big brother growing up.
So how many rings does everybody have then? We have to subtract rings now unless you were the best player of the team?
Can you read kind sir?? Where did I say or suggest we have to subtract rings from players. I said any Kobe lovers opening statement when talking about Kobe's legacy to me shouldn't be "Kobe has 5 rings" because the statement suggests or implies that he was the leader or the main reason he has 5 championships rings. However for the people that watched those games and actually watch that championship run we know better, and more importantly deep down I believe alot of you Kobe lovers know better as well. You guys have just been doing a good job of trying to fool other people and doing a great job of fooling yourselves.
Dude was getting 28 a game, 2nd team all nba for title 2, all nba for title 3, 5th in the MVP voting, and yet he can't count these rings on his resume cuz Shaq was there.
We're giving credit or highlighting being 5th in MVP voting now........ You Kobe lovers, what will you dudes think of next.
- 160,803
- 142,632
I mean how can I counteract such an off-the wall claim. Of course I have nothing to say other than I don't understand how you can possibly use that approach when looking at someone's resume.
And can you please stop with the name calling? We are all adults here, because someone is making a point in favor of a player they don't have to be considered a Kobe Lover. Please stop man. It diminishes the integrity of the conversation (which is very good).
But you KEEP saying NOT to take credit away from Kobe but.............Almost as saying, "No disrespect but you are stupid." You are doing what you are saying you aren't and I don't think you are seeing it.
If you want to not credit Kobe for those rings, say it. Stop beating around the bush.
And can you please stop with the name calling? We are all adults here, because someone is making a point in favor of a player they don't have to be considered a Kobe Lover. Please stop man. It diminishes the integrity of the conversation (which is very good).
But you KEEP saying NOT to take credit away from Kobe but.............Almost as saying, "No disrespect but you are stupid." You are doing what you are saying you aren't and I don't think you are seeing it.
If you want to not credit Kobe for those rings, say it. Stop beating around the bush.
- 160,803
- 142,632
I mean how can I counteract such an off-the wall claim. Of course I have nothing to say other than I don't understand how you can possibly use that approach when looking at someone's resume.
And can you please stop with the name calling? We are all adults here, because someone is making a point in favor of a player they don't have to be considered a Kobe Lover. Please stop man. It diminishes the integrity of the conversation (which is very good).
But you KEEP saying NOT to take credit away from Kobe but.............Almost as saying, "No disrespect but you are stupid." You are doing what you are saying you aren't and I don't think you are seeing it.
If you want to not credit Kobe for those rings, say it. Stop beating around the bush.
And can you please stop with the name calling? We are all adults here, because someone is making a point in favor of a player they don't have to be considered a Kobe Lover. Please stop man. It diminishes the integrity of the conversation (which is very good).
But you KEEP saying NOT to take credit away from Kobe but.............Almost as saying, "No disrespect but you are stupid." You are doing what you are saying you aren't and I don't think you are seeing it.
If you want to not credit Kobe for those rings, say it. Stop beating around the bush.
- 2,717
- 227
My man.
Just take the 3 rings away and look like a fool while you are at it. That's like saying if the Heat won this year, Wade got MVP and Bron only averaged his mere 21 HIS FIRST RING DON'T COUNT. So take the hate out your breath and think about what you are saying.
Do Pippens count? What about Shaqs 4th? What about Duncans the year Parker got MVP? You see the foolishness it's not like Kobe, Duncan, or Shaq was Deshawn Stevenson off the bench dude!
- 2,717
- 227
My man.
Just take the 3 rings away and look like a fool while you are at it. That's like saying if the Heat won this year, Wade got MVP and Bron only averaged his mere 21 HIS FIRST RING DON'T COUNT. So take the hate out your breath and think about what you are saying.
Do Pippens count? What about Shaqs 4th? What about Duncans the year Parker got MVP? You see the foolishness it's not like Kobe, Duncan, or Shaq was Deshawn Stevenson off the bench dude!
- 12,102
- 1,410
here it goes
LeBron
i. The Basketball Player
Most ready and productive HS to NBA player out of the gate in history. Top 2 athletic force of nature I've seen since '93 next to Shaq (for this -- that's how far I'll go back with my own two eyes and living in that moment, not DVD's or ESPN Classic, can watch old game tapes all day but if you didn't experience THAT Time, you miss something.). Best open court player I've seen. Best skip passer I've ever seen. Best passing player 6'8 over I've seen. (again since '93 and this might the most advantageous thing he has at 6'8 260, not just running people over. Think of the flick of the wrist pass to Chalmers cross-court late in Game 2, nobody else makes that as effortlessly.). The flaws: Shooting, post-game, facilitator or scorer? and early on questions about defense. Defense was corrected early, some credit to coaching staffs he was under and also accepting that responsibility. When locked in on that end, he also turns into one of the top 2-3 help defenders as a wing player in the 'rover' role that I've seen next to Pippen.
Shooting flaw is still there. and it's odd. The mechanics of it come and go. He is a streaky shooter, but it's in the mechanics. The backside stays level and upright he probably hits at a 37-38% clip from 3. The legs start to go out, the fade away comes and it probably drops to the 29-30% range, you split the difference and it's right at the 33% mark he's been at. It will be interesting as time goes on, does losing some of his athleticism make it easier to stay centered and in good form as he is confined or does it do the opposite and create more reliance on 'arm shooting' with the rest of the body going different directions?
The post game. Flawed, but exists. Does he have a go to move? No. Does a double team get sent at him almost every damn time? Yes. People need to stop with the he 'doesn't have a post game' and reconfigure that statement to 'doesn't have post moves'. It's the part of being 6'8 260 that gives him one by default. He turns his left shoulder on the block against a small forward and he's right at the rim for a layup. My biggest issue with the lack of one is just simply because he doesn't do it enough. I loved Spoelstra working him off cross-screens this finals, why that didn't or doesn't happen more, I don't know..but I hope it does into the future. He passes as well out of those double teams as anyone. JVG brought up the point one night, why double? Make him make a move to beat you. The moves may not be there, but if a guy is getting doubled consistently and creating good offense, something exists. It's just not done enough.
Facilitator or scorer? I still don't know. Sometimes you get the best of both worlds, and that's him at his best. Other times he sits back too much. Kobe used and still does do the same 'feeling things out' but at his core everyone knew he was a scorer and at some point in the course of the game you're going to get it. At times, it just never comes for LeBron and he'll just go the other route all the way through (Game 4). But I'll say this, When Mo Williams went down last year in January/February and LeBron moved to PG and the Cavs went 11-0 with wins over LA (2x) Orlando, OKC..during that stretch he went with 31, 7 and 10 . For me, it was the pinnacle for LeBron as a regular season player. When a team has had to have been so overly reliant on him, we've got to see the best he has to offer in mulitiple facets of the game. The issue with this is....when you hit a certain point and against the best competition, it's like running into a brick wall. It's why he had to join another star (or 2). Jordan had experienced this, Kobe did as well. They got their stars, LeBron sought them out. It's a touchy subject. But, Now, playing next to Wade this is his biggest question mark..it trumps the jump shot. How does he achieve greatness at the highest level-- while still appeasing the masses statistically-- when playing next to someone like Wade? A jack of all trades faces an issue when you need to simplify..what is he at his core? Probably both a facilitator and scorer. The criticism about not having spots on the floor where he knows he's comfortable and can go make a play are fair. I think some are on the way (right block, turning over right shoulder and taking that FT line jumper being one & using the cross-screens) it may just take Spoelstra or Riley insisting on these spots for him.
The post-season. Some immense highs and lows. One thing that was interesting looking back is that we were 3 minutes away from getting a LeBron/Wade showdown in the ECF's in 2006. Would have added another layer in their storyline/relationship. Instead Cavs can't close Game 6 and drop Game 7. But back to the point... Game 5 in Detroit, then Game 5 in Boston. 45 on the road against Pierce in G7 in 08 then 9 turnovers and Knicks chants in G6 in '10. Maybe the epitome of it all so far is the performances against Chicago and Boston this year followed up by the Finals performance. Clutch or not clutch? Again, there have been a good amount of examples both ways. Maybe what we all are looking for in him is just consistency for better or worse? Defining his legacy would become easier, we just don't have a solid answer yet.
ii. The Decision.
A) The cop-out. I said the night it happened, he can't be Jordan (I never thought he could anyway, but this sealed it). There was and still a sense of him limiting his own ceiling. The only way that goes away is if he plays every ECF and Finals to the level he was against Boston & Chicago. It's still the fact that it is Miami and that is Wade's city. If he gets Dwyane to follow him to Cleveland or team up in NY, does the same feeling of Pippen/Robin exist? Likely to an extent from some but not like this..which leads to..
B) The Double-Standard. And this is more geared towards Wade. The man who won 4 playoff games in 4 years and people were then ready to anoint with 2 more wins this week. Wade plays like crap against the best regular season win team and LeBron plays great -- Heat win in 5. LeBron plays like crap, Wade plays great vs Dallas-- Heat lose in 6. Wade is in a great situation. All credit/no blame position. But the bottom line, LeBron has to be good to great for Miami to win it all. He is the better player, in the Finals, He was not. 'Robin' will not win champions for the Heat. And he has to have those great performances to validate a title in a lot of peoples minds. Fair or unfair.
C) The aftermath. A year removed, year one is in the books. Nothing but a championship every year is a huge failure given the situation he and Wade/Bosh decided on. Where it goes from here? Anyone's guess. I don't believe the limit on his greatness or legacy is as severe as we thought last July. Things are decided on the court and everything was being erased in those 2 Eastern series and then it got derailed quickly. His legacy can be enhanced or damaged either way. Being on Miami just crossed off the GOAT discussion with LeBron. Which leads me to..
iii. Social Media and the News cycle.
This is not exclusive to LeBron, but it does play into his legacy. As much as any athlete to date. I genuinely feel sorry for the next transcendent NBA player who even has a hint of arrogance. You have to have the contrived answers that Durant and Rose offer now. Have to. We enjoy arrogance, but not until you win. Kobe has said some off the wall +%%* to reporters the past year or two, but it's humorous and almost looked at in a playful manner at this point. That's just Kobe now. The competitor, not the dickhead. Because he won. Could you imagine the stuff that he and Iverson got into 7-8 years ago coming to light now with twitter and how instant info and access is available? Heck, we were one dumb reporter away from that Rasard Lewis stuff actually becoming a story. But, basically..here is a guy who grew up bouncing around homes in a single parent home with a part-time mother who emerged in the spot light at 16 and not once has encountered off court trouble. And this is who we turn into a villain? Arrogance, lack of humility, poor choices of words will be damning to any athlete from here on out. It has happened to LeBron and I'm not sure how he salvages his image. Can't turn into the guy who says all the right things, can't ride the fence and can't go all out dark side. There really is only one way -- to win. But for anyone to reach or attain GOAT status they are going to have to be so far removed from this current era it's crazy to think about. You still have huge MJ fans, you have huge Kobe fans..you have past players/coaches who speak on things to either prop up or tear down. It'd have to take another 50 years before all those people wash away before we can put another player on that pedestal. But at that point, who knows how the media handles a player like that?
And Do not get me wrong, he is responsible here for the heights it can and has reached. Stay off twitter. Nobody should know the names of the people in your entourage. They're your entourage. We shouldn't know your mom on a first name basis. It's not his fault entirely, but at some point you just have to say...look here is a check every month..let me handle my business with people who are actually educated and trained in these areas...and I'll see you in July.
iv. He's still 26.
So, I can't make anywhere near a final conclusion on what he is. I would say he is probably already on the back end of the Top 20 players of all time. But the clock is ticking and the hour glass got flipped upside down when they hit the floor this year. This was, to me, the first team he was on that was capable of winning a championship and he and his team failed. No way around it. There is (plenty of) time left, he and his teammates will need health..and maybe they get Pat Riley? But he has to win, you at least have to knock down that barrier before we start talking about Finals MVP's and who is what on a team. That stuff becomes secondary and subjective, the titles are there forever. There are still areas of his game to work on but probably as much as anything there is some soul-searching to do this summer, even more than last. Last year it was figuring out what was the best situation (debatable choice legacy wise, likely the correct choice basketball wise) Now, He has to figure: What works, when it works and when it's needed. The all time greats a) recognize it. b) execute it.
From 2008-2010 as a Cav we saw his absolute peak as an individual both athletically and as a basketball player and that greatness got him 2 MVP's. The team greatness? That's still in front of him to go after.
LeBron
i. The Basketball Player
Most ready and productive HS to NBA player out of the gate in history. Top 2 athletic force of nature I've seen since '93 next to Shaq (for this -- that's how far I'll go back with my own two eyes and living in that moment, not DVD's or ESPN Classic, can watch old game tapes all day but if you didn't experience THAT Time, you miss something.). Best open court player I've seen. Best skip passer I've ever seen. Best passing player 6'8 over I've seen. (again since '93 and this might the most advantageous thing he has at 6'8 260, not just running people over. Think of the flick of the wrist pass to Chalmers cross-court late in Game 2, nobody else makes that as effortlessly.). The flaws: Shooting, post-game, facilitator or scorer? and early on questions about defense. Defense was corrected early, some credit to coaching staffs he was under and also accepting that responsibility. When locked in on that end, he also turns into one of the top 2-3 help defenders as a wing player in the 'rover' role that I've seen next to Pippen.
Shooting flaw is still there. and it's odd. The mechanics of it come and go. He is a streaky shooter, but it's in the mechanics. The backside stays level and upright he probably hits at a 37-38% clip from 3. The legs start to go out, the fade away comes and it probably drops to the 29-30% range, you split the difference and it's right at the 33% mark he's been at. It will be interesting as time goes on, does losing some of his athleticism make it easier to stay centered and in good form as he is confined or does it do the opposite and create more reliance on 'arm shooting' with the rest of the body going different directions?
The post game. Flawed, but exists. Does he have a go to move? No. Does a double team get sent at him almost every damn time? Yes. People need to stop with the he 'doesn't have a post game' and reconfigure that statement to 'doesn't have post moves'. It's the part of being 6'8 260 that gives him one by default. He turns his left shoulder on the block against a small forward and he's right at the rim for a layup. My biggest issue with the lack of one is just simply because he doesn't do it enough. I loved Spoelstra working him off cross-screens this finals, why that didn't or doesn't happen more, I don't know..but I hope it does into the future. He passes as well out of those double teams as anyone. JVG brought up the point one night, why double? Make him make a move to beat you. The moves may not be there, but if a guy is getting doubled consistently and creating good offense, something exists. It's just not done enough.
Facilitator or scorer? I still don't know. Sometimes you get the best of both worlds, and that's him at his best. Other times he sits back too much. Kobe used and still does do the same 'feeling things out' but at his core everyone knew he was a scorer and at some point in the course of the game you're going to get it. At times, it just never comes for LeBron and he'll just go the other route all the way through (Game 4). But I'll say this, When Mo Williams went down last year in January/February and LeBron moved to PG and the Cavs went 11-0 with wins over LA (2x) Orlando, OKC..during that stretch he went with 31, 7 and 10 . For me, it was the pinnacle for LeBron as a regular season player. When a team has had to have been so overly reliant on him, we've got to see the best he has to offer in mulitiple facets of the game. The issue with this is....when you hit a certain point and against the best competition, it's like running into a brick wall. It's why he had to join another star (or 2). Jordan had experienced this, Kobe did as well. They got their stars, LeBron sought them out. It's a touchy subject. But, Now, playing next to Wade this is his biggest question mark..it trumps the jump shot. How does he achieve greatness at the highest level-- while still appeasing the masses statistically-- when playing next to someone like Wade? A jack of all trades faces an issue when you need to simplify..what is he at his core? Probably both a facilitator and scorer. The criticism about not having spots on the floor where he knows he's comfortable and can go make a play are fair. I think some are on the way (right block, turning over right shoulder and taking that FT line jumper being one & using the cross-screens) it may just take Spoelstra or Riley insisting on these spots for him.
The post-season. Some immense highs and lows. One thing that was interesting looking back is that we were 3 minutes away from getting a LeBron/Wade showdown in the ECF's in 2006. Would have added another layer in their storyline/relationship. Instead Cavs can't close Game 6 and drop Game 7. But back to the point... Game 5 in Detroit, then Game 5 in Boston. 45 on the road against Pierce in G7 in 08 then 9 turnovers and Knicks chants in G6 in '10. Maybe the epitome of it all so far is the performances against Chicago and Boston this year followed up by the Finals performance. Clutch or not clutch? Again, there have been a good amount of examples both ways. Maybe what we all are looking for in him is just consistency for better or worse? Defining his legacy would become easier, we just don't have a solid answer yet.
ii. The Decision.
A) The cop-out. I said the night it happened, he can't be Jordan (I never thought he could anyway, but this sealed it). There was and still a sense of him limiting his own ceiling. The only way that goes away is if he plays every ECF and Finals to the level he was against Boston & Chicago. It's still the fact that it is Miami and that is Wade's city. If he gets Dwyane to follow him to Cleveland or team up in NY, does the same feeling of Pippen/Robin exist? Likely to an extent from some but not like this..which leads to..
B) The Double-Standard. And this is more geared towards Wade. The man who won 4 playoff games in 4 years and people were then ready to anoint with 2 more wins this week. Wade plays like crap against the best regular season win team and LeBron plays great -- Heat win in 5. LeBron plays like crap, Wade plays great vs Dallas-- Heat lose in 6. Wade is in a great situation. All credit/no blame position. But the bottom line, LeBron has to be good to great for Miami to win it all. He is the better player, in the Finals, He was not. 'Robin' will not win champions for the Heat. And he has to have those great performances to validate a title in a lot of peoples minds. Fair or unfair.
C) The aftermath. A year removed, year one is in the books. Nothing but a championship every year is a huge failure given the situation he and Wade/Bosh decided on. Where it goes from here? Anyone's guess. I don't believe the limit on his greatness or legacy is as severe as we thought last July. Things are decided on the court and everything was being erased in those 2 Eastern series and then it got derailed quickly. His legacy can be enhanced or damaged either way. Being on Miami just crossed off the GOAT discussion with LeBron. Which leads me to..
iii. Social Media and the News cycle.
This is not exclusive to LeBron, but it does play into his legacy. As much as any athlete to date. I genuinely feel sorry for the next transcendent NBA player who even has a hint of arrogance. You have to have the contrived answers that Durant and Rose offer now. Have to. We enjoy arrogance, but not until you win. Kobe has said some off the wall +%%* to reporters the past year or two, but it's humorous and almost looked at in a playful manner at this point. That's just Kobe now. The competitor, not the dickhead. Because he won. Could you imagine the stuff that he and Iverson got into 7-8 years ago coming to light now with twitter and how instant info and access is available? Heck, we were one dumb reporter away from that Rasard Lewis stuff actually becoming a story. But, basically..here is a guy who grew up bouncing around homes in a single parent home with a part-time mother who emerged in the spot light at 16 and not once has encountered off court trouble. And this is who we turn into a villain? Arrogance, lack of humility, poor choices of words will be damning to any athlete from here on out. It has happened to LeBron and I'm not sure how he salvages his image. Can't turn into the guy who says all the right things, can't ride the fence and can't go all out dark side. There really is only one way -- to win. But for anyone to reach or attain GOAT status they are going to have to be so far removed from this current era it's crazy to think about. You still have huge MJ fans, you have huge Kobe fans..you have past players/coaches who speak on things to either prop up or tear down. It'd have to take another 50 years before all those people wash away before we can put another player on that pedestal. But at that point, who knows how the media handles a player like that?
And Do not get me wrong, he is responsible here for the heights it can and has reached. Stay off twitter. Nobody should know the names of the people in your entourage. They're your entourage. We shouldn't know your mom on a first name basis. It's not his fault entirely, but at some point you just have to say...look here is a check every month..let me handle my business with people who are actually educated and trained in these areas...and I'll see you in July.
iv. He's still 26.
So, I can't make anywhere near a final conclusion on what he is. I would say he is probably already on the back end of the Top 20 players of all time. But the clock is ticking and the hour glass got flipped upside down when they hit the floor this year. This was, to me, the first team he was on that was capable of winning a championship and he and his team failed. No way around it. There is (plenty of) time left, he and his teammates will need health..and maybe they get Pat Riley? But he has to win, you at least have to knock down that barrier before we start talking about Finals MVP's and who is what on a team. That stuff becomes secondary and subjective, the titles are there forever. There are still areas of his game to work on but probably as much as anything there is some soul-searching to do this summer, even more than last. Last year it was figuring out what was the best situation (debatable choice legacy wise, likely the correct choice basketball wise) Now, He has to figure: What works, when it works and when it's needed. The all time greats a) recognize it. b) execute it.
From 2008-2010 as a Cav we saw his absolute peak as an individual both athletically and as a basketball player and that greatness got him 2 MVP's. The team greatness? That's still in front of him to go after.
- 12,102
- 1,410
here it goes
LeBron
i. The Basketball Player
Most ready and productive HS to NBA player out of the gate in history. Top 2 athletic force of nature I've seen since '93 next to Shaq (for this -- that's how far I'll go back with my own two eyes and living in that moment, not DVD's or ESPN Classic, can watch old game tapes all day but if you didn't experience THAT Time, you miss something.). Best open court player I've seen. Best skip passer I've ever seen. Best passing player 6'8 over I've seen. (again since '93 and this might the most advantageous thing he has at 6'8 260, not just running people over. Think of the flick of the wrist pass to Chalmers cross-court late in Game 2, nobody else makes that as effortlessly.). The flaws: Shooting, post-game, facilitator or scorer? and early on questions about defense. Defense was corrected early, some credit to coaching staffs he was under and also accepting that responsibility. When locked in on that end, he also turns into one of the top 2-3 help defenders as a wing player in the 'rover' role that I've seen next to Pippen.
Shooting flaw is still there. and it's odd. The mechanics of it come and go. He is a streaky shooter, but it's in the mechanics. The backside stays level and upright he probably hits at a 37-38% clip from 3. The legs start to go out, the fade away comes and it probably drops to the 29-30% range, you split the difference and it's right at the 33% mark he's been at. It will be interesting as time goes on, does losing some of his athleticism make it easier to stay centered and in good form as he is confined or does it do the opposite and create more reliance on 'arm shooting' with the rest of the body going different directions?
The post game. Flawed, but exists. Does he have a go to move? No. Does a double team get sent at him almost every damn time? Yes. People need to stop with the he 'doesn't have a post game' and reconfigure that statement to 'doesn't have post moves'. It's the part of being 6'8 260 that gives him one by default. He turns his left shoulder on the block against a small forward and he's right at the rim for a layup. My biggest issue with the lack of one is just simply because he doesn't do it enough. I loved Spoelstra working him off cross-screens this finals, why that didn't or doesn't happen more, I don't know..but I hope it does into the future. He passes as well out of those double teams as anyone. JVG brought up the point one night, why double? Make him make a move to beat you. The moves may not be there, but if a guy is getting doubled consistently and creating good offense, something exists. It's just not done enough.
Facilitator or scorer? I still don't know. Sometimes you get the best of both worlds, and that's him at his best. Other times he sits back too much. Kobe used and still does do the same 'feeling things out' but at his core everyone knew he was a scorer and at some point in the course of the game you're going to get it. At times, it just never comes for LeBron and he'll just go the other route all the way through (Game 4). But I'll say this, When Mo Williams went down last year in January/February and LeBron moved to PG and the Cavs went 11-0 with wins over LA (2x) Orlando, OKC..during that stretch he went with 31, 7 and 10 . For me, it was the pinnacle for LeBron as a regular season player. When a team has had to have been so overly reliant on him, we've got to see the best he has to offer in mulitiple facets of the game. The issue with this is....when you hit a certain point and against the best competition, it's like running into a brick wall. It's why he had to join another star (or 2). Jordan had experienced this, Kobe did as well. They got their stars, LeBron sought them out. It's a touchy subject. But, Now, playing next to Wade this is his biggest question mark..it trumps the jump shot. How does he achieve greatness at the highest level-- while still appeasing the masses statistically-- when playing next to someone like Wade? A jack of all trades faces an issue when you need to simplify..what is he at his core? Probably both a facilitator and scorer. The criticism about not having spots on the floor where he knows he's comfortable and can go make a play are fair. I think some are on the way (right block, turning over right shoulder and taking that FT line jumper being one & using the cross-screens) it may just take Spoelstra or Riley insisting on these spots for him.
The post-season. Some immense highs and lows. One thing that was interesting looking back is that we were 3 minutes away from getting a LeBron/Wade showdown in the ECF's in 2006. Would have added another layer in their storyline/relationship. Instead Cavs can't close Game 6 and drop Game 7. But back to the point... Game 5 in Detroit, then Game 5 in Boston. 45 on the road against Pierce in G7 in 08 then 9 turnovers and Knicks chants in G6 in '10. Maybe the epitome of it all so far is the performances against Chicago and Boston this year followed up by the Finals performance. Clutch or not clutch? Again, there have been a good amount of examples both ways. Maybe what we all are looking for in him is just consistency for better or worse? Defining his legacy would become easier, we just don't have a solid answer yet.
ii. The Decision.
A) The cop-out. I said the night it happened, he can't be Jordan (I never thought he could anyway, but this sealed it). There was and still a sense of him limiting his own ceiling. The only way that goes away is if he plays every ECF and Finals to the level he was against Boston & Chicago. It's still the fact that it is Miami and that is Wade's city. If he gets Dwyane to follow him to Cleveland or team up in NY, does the same feeling of Pippen/Robin exist? Likely to an extent from some but not like this..which leads to..
B) The Double-Standard. And this is more geared towards Wade. The man who won 4 playoff games in 4 years and people were then ready to anoint with 2 more wins this week. Wade plays like crap against the best regular season win team and LeBron plays great -- Heat win in 5. LeBron plays like crap, Wade plays great vs Dallas-- Heat lose in 6. Wade is in a great situation. All credit/no blame position. But the bottom line, LeBron has to be good to great for Miami to win it all. He is the better player, in the Finals, He was not. 'Robin' will not win champions for the Heat. And he has to have those great performances to validate a title in a lot of peoples minds. Fair or unfair.
C) The aftermath. A year removed, year one is in the books. Nothing but a championship every year is a huge failure given the situation he and Wade/Bosh decided on. Where it goes from here? Anyone's guess. I don't believe the limit on his greatness or legacy is as severe as we thought last July. Things are decided on the court and everything was being erased in those 2 Eastern series and then it got derailed quickly. His legacy can be enhanced or damaged either way. Being on Miami just crossed off the GOAT discussion with LeBron. Which leads me to..
iii. Social Media and the News cycle.
This is not exclusive to LeBron, but it does play into his legacy. As much as any athlete to date. I genuinely feel sorry for the next transcendent NBA player who even has a hint of arrogance. You have to have the contrived answers that Durant and Rose offer now. Have to. We enjoy arrogance, but not until you win. Kobe has said some off the wall +%%* to reporters the past year or two, but it's humorous and almost looked at in a playful manner at this point. That's just Kobe now. The competitor, not the dickhead. Because he won. Could you imagine the stuff that he and Iverson got into 7-8 years ago coming to light now with twitter and how instant info and access is available? Heck, we were one dumb reporter away from that Rasard Lewis stuff actually becoming a story. But, basically..here is a guy who grew up bouncing around homes in a single parent home with a part-time mother who emerged in the spot light at 16 and not once has encountered off court trouble. And this is who we turn into a villain? Arrogance, lack of humility, poor choices of words will be damning to any athlete from here on out. It has happened to LeBron and I'm not sure how he salvages his image. Can't turn into the guy who says all the right things, can't ride the fence and can't go all out dark side. There really is only one way -- to win. But for anyone to reach or attain GOAT status they are going to have to be so far removed from this current era it's crazy to think about. You still have huge MJ fans, you have huge Kobe fans..you have past players/coaches who speak on things to either prop up or tear down. It'd have to take another 50 years before all those people wash away before we can put another player on that pedestal. But at that point, who knows how the media handles a player like that?
And Do not get me wrong, he is responsible here for the heights it can and has reached. Stay off twitter. Nobody should know the names of the people in your entourage. They're your entourage. We shouldn't know your mom on a first name basis. It's not his fault entirely, but at some point you just have to say...look here is a check every month..let me handle my business with people who are actually educated and trained in these areas...and I'll see you in July.
iv. He's still 26.
So, I can't make anywhere near a final conclusion on what he is. I would say he is probably already on the back end of the Top 20 players of all time. But the clock is ticking and the hour glass got flipped upside down when they hit the floor this year. This was, to me, the first team he was on that was capable of winning a championship and he and his team failed. No way around it. There is (plenty of) time left, he and his teammates will need health..and maybe they get Pat Riley? But he has to win, you at least have to knock down that barrier before we start talking about Finals MVP's and who is what on a team. That stuff becomes secondary and subjective, the titles are there forever. There are still areas of his game to work on but probably as much as anything there is some soul-searching to do this summer, even more than last. Last year it was figuring out what was the best situation (debatable choice legacy wise, likely the correct choice basketball wise) Now, He has to figure: What works, when it works and when it's needed. The all time greats a) recognize it. b) execute it.
From 2008-2010 as a Cav we saw his absolute peak as an individual both athletically and as a basketball player and that greatness got him 2 MVP's. The team greatness? That's still in front of him to go after.
LeBron
i. The Basketball Player
Most ready and productive HS to NBA player out of the gate in history. Top 2 athletic force of nature I've seen since '93 next to Shaq (for this -- that's how far I'll go back with my own two eyes and living in that moment, not DVD's or ESPN Classic, can watch old game tapes all day but if you didn't experience THAT Time, you miss something.). Best open court player I've seen. Best skip passer I've ever seen. Best passing player 6'8 over I've seen. (again since '93 and this might the most advantageous thing he has at 6'8 260, not just running people over. Think of the flick of the wrist pass to Chalmers cross-court late in Game 2, nobody else makes that as effortlessly.). The flaws: Shooting, post-game, facilitator or scorer? and early on questions about defense. Defense was corrected early, some credit to coaching staffs he was under and also accepting that responsibility. When locked in on that end, he also turns into one of the top 2-3 help defenders as a wing player in the 'rover' role that I've seen next to Pippen.
Shooting flaw is still there. and it's odd. The mechanics of it come and go. He is a streaky shooter, but it's in the mechanics. The backside stays level and upright he probably hits at a 37-38% clip from 3. The legs start to go out, the fade away comes and it probably drops to the 29-30% range, you split the difference and it's right at the 33% mark he's been at. It will be interesting as time goes on, does losing some of his athleticism make it easier to stay centered and in good form as he is confined or does it do the opposite and create more reliance on 'arm shooting' with the rest of the body going different directions?
The post game. Flawed, but exists. Does he have a go to move? No. Does a double team get sent at him almost every damn time? Yes. People need to stop with the he 'doesn't have a post game' and reconfigure that statement to 'doesn't have post moves'. It's the part of being 6'8 260 that gives him one by default. He turns his left shoulder on the block against a small forward and he's right at the rim for a layup. My biggest issue with the lack of one is just simply because he doesn't do it enough. I loved Spoelstra working him off cross-screens this finals, why that didn't or doesn't happen more, I don't know..but I hope it does into the future. He passes as well out of those double teams as anyone. JVG brought up the point one night, why double? Make him make a move to beat you. The moves may not be there, but if a guy is getting doubled consistently and creating good offense, something exists. It's just not done enough.
Facilitator or scorer? I still don't know. Sometimes you get the best of both worlds, and that's him at his best. Other times he sits back too much. Kobe used and still does do the same 'feeling things out' but at his core everyone knew he was a scorer and at some point in the course of the game you're going to get it. At times, it just never comes for LeBron and he'll just go the other route all the way through (Game 4). But I'll say this, When Mo Williams went down last year in January/February and LeBron moved to PG and the Cavs went 11-0 with wins over LA (2x) Orlando, OKC..during that stretch he went with 31, 7 and 10 . For me, it was the pinnacle for LeBron as a regular season player. When a team has had to have been so overly reliant on him, we've got to see the best he has to offer in mulitiple facets of the game. The issue with this is....when you hit a certain point and against the best competition, it's like running into a brick wall. It's why he had to join another star (or 2). Jordan had experienced this, Kobe did as well. They got their stars, LeBron sought them out. It's a touchy subject. But, Now, playing next to Wade this is his biggest question mark..it trumps the jump shot. How does he achieve greatness at the highest level-- while still appeasing the masses statistically-- when playing next to someone like Wade? A jack of all trades faces an issue when you need to simplify..what is he at his core? Probably both a facilitator and scorer. The criticism about not having spots on the floor where he knows he's comfortable and can go make a play are fair. I think some are on the way (right block, turning over right shoulder and taking that FT line jumper being one & using the cross-screens) it may just take Spoelstra or Riley insisting on these spots for him.
The post-season. Some immense highs and lows. One thing that was interesting looking back is that we were 3 minutes away from getting a LeBron/Wade showdown in the ECF's in 2006. Would have added another layer in their storyline/relationship. Instead Cavs can't close Game 6 and drop Game 7. But back to the point... Game 5 in Detroit, then Game 5 in Boston. 45 on the road against Pierce in G7 in 08 then 9 turnovers and Knicks chants in G6 in '10. Maybe the epitome of it all so far is the performances against Chicago and Boston this year followed up by the Finals performance. Clutch or not clutch? Again, there have been a good amount of examples both ways. Maybe what we all are looking for in him is just consistency for better or worse? Defining his legacy would become easier, we just don't have a solid answer yet.
ii. The Decision.
A) The cop-out. I said the night it happened, he can't be Jordan (I never thought he could anyway, but this sealed it). There was and still a sense of him limiting his own ceiling. The only way that goes away is if he plays every ECF and Finals to the level he was against Boston & Chicago. It's still the fact that it is Miami and that is Wade's city. If he gets Dwyane to follow him to Cleveland or team up in NY, does the same feeling of Pippen/Robin exist? Likely to an extent from some but not like this..which leads to..
B) The Double-Standard. And this is more geared towards Wade. The man who won 4 playoff games in 4 years and people were then ready to anoint with 2 more wins this week. Wade plays like crap against the best regular season win team and LeBron plays great -- Heat win in 5. LeBron plays like crap, Wade plays great vs Dallas-- Heat lose in 6. Wade is in a great situation. All credit/no blame position. But the bottom line, LeBron has to be good to great for Miami to win it all. He is the better player, in the Finals, He was not. 'Robin' will not win champions for the Heat. And he has to have those great performances to validate a title in a lot of peoples minds. Fair or unfair.
C) The aftermath. A year removed, year one is in the books. Nothing but a championship every year is a huge failure given the situation he and Wade/Bosh decided on. Where it goes from here? Anyone's guess. I don't believe the limit on his greatness or legacy is as severe as we thought last July. Things are decided on the court and everything was being erased in those 2 Eastern series and then it got derailed quickly. His legacy can be enhanced or damaged either way. Being on Miami just crossed off the GOAT discussion with LeBron. Which leads me to..
iii. Social Media and the News cycle.
This is not exclusive to LeBron, but it does play into his legacy. As much as any athlete to date. I genuinely feel sorry for the next transcendent NBA player who even has a hint of arrogance. You have to have the contrived answers that Durant and Rose offer now. Have to. We enjoy arrogance, but not until you win. Kobe has said some off the wall +%%* to reporters the past year or two, but it's humorous and almost looked at in a playful manner at this point. That's just Kobe now. The competitor, not the dickhead. Because he won. Could you imagine the stuff that he and Iverson got into 7-8 years ago coming to light now with twitter and how instant info and access is available? Heck, we were one dumb reporter away from that Rasard Lewis stuff actually becoming a story. But, basically..here is a guy who grew up bouncing around homes in a single parent home with a part-time mother who emerged in the spot light at 16 and not once has encountered off court trouble. And this is who we turn into a villain? Arrogance, lack of humility, poor choices of words will be damning to any athlete from here on out. It has happened to LeBron and I'm not sure how he salvages his image. Can't turn into the guy who says all the right things, can't ride the fence and can't go all out dark side. There really is only one way -- to win. But for anyone to reach or attain GOAT status they are going to have to be so far removed from this current era it's crazy to think about. You still have huge MJ fans, you have huge Kobe fans..you have past players/coaches who speak on things to either prop up or tear down. It'd have to take another 50 years before all those people wash away before we can put another player on that pedestal. But at that point, who knows how the media handles a player like that?
And Do not get me wrong, he is responsible here for the heights it can and has reached. Stay off twitter. Nobody should know the names of the people in your entourage. They're your entourage. We shouldn't know your mom on a first name basis. It's not his fault entirely, but at some point you just have to say...look here is a check every month..let me handle my business with people who are actually educated and trained in these areas...and I'll see you in July.
iv. He's still 26.
So, I can't make anywhere near a final conclusion on what he is. I would say he is probably already on the back end of the Top 20 players of all time. But the clock is ticking and the hour glass got flipped upside down when they hit the floor this year. This was, to me, the first team he was on that was capable of winning a championship and he and his team failed. No way around it. There is (plenty of) time left, he and his teammates will need health..and maybe they get Pat Riley? But he has to win, you at least have to knock down that barrier before we start talking about Finals MVP's and who is what on a team. That stuff becomes secondary and subjective, the titles are there forever. There are still areas of his game to work on but probably as much as anything there is some soul-searching to do this summer, even more than last. Last year it was figuring out what was the best situation (debatable choice legacy wise, likely the correct choice basketball wise) Now, He has to figure: What works, when it works and when it's needed. The all time greats a) recognize it. b) execute it.
From 2008-2010 as a Cav we saw his absolute peak as an individual both athletically and as a basketball player and that greatness got him 2 MVP's. The team greatness? That's still in front of him to go after.
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Don't have time to post a well written reply but I think Moses Malone makes a case for second greatest PF of all time (he played both PF and C).
Dudes resume: 3x MVP, one ring, NBA finals MVP, 8x All NBA, 2x All Defensive Team, 7th all time in scoring, 20.6 PPG, 12.2 RPG, 1.4 APG
Dirks reume: 1x MVP, one ring, NBA finals MVP, 11x All NBA, 23rd all time in scoring, 23 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 2.7 APG
The argument will come down to whether you conidered Moses a true PF or C
Dudes resume: 3x MVP, one ring, NBA finals MVP, 8x All NBA, 2x All Defensive Team, 7th all time in scoring, 20.6 PPG, 12.2 RPG, 1.4 APG
Dirks reume: 1x MVP, one ring, NBA finals MVP, 11x All NBA, 23rd all time in scoring, 23 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 2.7 APG
The argument will come down to whether you conidered Moses a true PF or C
- 35,029
- 16,945
Don't have time to post a well written reply but I think Moses Malone makes a case for second greatest PF of all time (he played both PF and C).
Dudes resume: 3x MVP, one ring, NBA finals MVP, 8x All NBA, 2x All Defensive Team, 7th all time in scoring, 20.6 PPG, 12.2 RPG, 1.4 APG
Dirks reume: 1x MVP, one ring, NBA finals MVP, 11x All NBA, 23rd all time in scoring, 23 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 2.7 APG
The argument will come down to whether you conidered Moses a true PF or C
Dudes resume: 3x MVP, one ring, NBA finals MVP, 8x All NBA, 2x All Defensive Team, 7th all time in scoring, 20.6 PPG, 12.2 RPG, 1.4 APG
Dirks reume: 1x MVP, one ring, NBA finals MVP, 11x All NBA, 23rd all time in scoring, 23 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 2.7 APG
The argument will come down to whether you conidered Moses a true PF or C
T0INE
formerly toine2983
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Great write up on LeBron Allen.
T0INE
formerly toine2983
- 67,312
- 73,780
Great write up on LeBron Allen.
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Nice read allen.
As far as LeBron's post game is concerned, I think he's looking to pass more than he's looking to score when he's on the blocks. He seems to make the right pass every time I see him posting up.
As far as LeBron's post game is concerned, I think he's looking to pass more than he's looking to score when he's on the blocks. He seems to make the right pass every time I see him posting up.
- 92,691
- 128,896
Nice read allen.
As far as LeBron's post game is concerned, I think he's looking to pass more than he's looking to score when he's on the blocks. He seems to make the right pass every time I see him posting up.
As far as LeBron's post game is concerned, I think he's looking to pass more than he's looking to score when he's on the blocks. He seems to make the right pass every time I see him posting up.
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Originally Posted by toine2983
Great write up on LeBron Allen.
damn great!
- 5,215
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Originally Posted by toine2983
Great write up on LeBron Allen.
damn great!
darthska
Staff member
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Gotta chime in on Kidd, and I'm gonna do it by responding to JapanAir's words.
JapanAir21:
I want to talk about Kidd too.
10 years from now, we might look back on this Playoff run and say, "Ehh, Kidd was just along for the ride like Gary Payton was."
No, definitely not. Kidd didn't have the points this year to make him stand out, and he didn't have double-digit dimes every game, but what he did was what every single person in the world, including most Mavericks fans, myself included, though he lost. His biggest value to this team was as a defender. Turning back the clock, Kidd faced superstars ranging from Roy, Russell Westbrook, Kobe, Durant, Wade, and even LeBron. Did he ever shut down these guys for complete games? No, not really, but he got all of these guys out of their groove at some time in the game.
During this run, he wouldn't give up. He wouldn't ever admit defeat and let his man go off. Now I won't get blinded by the championship and say he was the primary defender on Kobe, Westbrook, Durant, Wade and Lebron ALL the time. He wasn't, it was a team effort with help from DeShawn Stevenson and Shawn Marion. But, with that said, when it mattered most, Kidd was getting the picks, he was the guy staying in front of some of the fastest guys in the L, he was staying in front of one of the strongest men in the L like LeBron, he was doing all he could in crunch time to make sure that these guys couldn't get off.
His perseverance is what allowed us to come back so many games. I don't know the number exactly, but the Mavericks came back from double-digit deficits countless times during these Playoffs. It was a run that was magical, one-of-a-kind, and how did they all begin? With stops on the defensive end. We tightened up, switched to the zone, did whatever we could, and Jason Kidd was right there at the forefront to lead us. You would have told me prior to the Playoffs that Jason Kidd was our best crunch-time defender I would've giggled, and the rest of the basketball world would have called you an idiot. But you know what? In the 2011 NBA Playoffs? He sure as hell did.
With all this said, you have to approach the question again of where does he belong? Among all the other players in the League, I find it hard to rank PGs unless their in their own class. Magic is obviously the one exception, but it's hard for me personally to put a label on John Stockton and say where he ranks all-time compared to other greats like Hakeem, Kareem, or Kobe. Obviously below all of them, but it's just a way to show how hard it is to compare PGs to every other position. In regards to Jason Kidd and where he ranks among other PGs? It's really hard for me to put him above guys like Stockton, O, and Isiah, but he's right there. He has the leadership of Isiah Thomas. He has the versatility of the Big O, and he has the longevity of John Stockton. The NBA will lose a great talent when this man retires. Kidd never had the scoring capacity that other great PGs had, and that's what will keep him from surpassing O and Isiah, but, I think being right there with them, in a 3A, 3B, 3C kind of ranking, isn't out of the question at all. Jason Kidd is THE role model of those who can persevere. Jason Kidd was one of the first players to really succeed after having microfracture surgery.
He's an old man, but this just proves that an old dog can learn new tricks (Or in this case, use tricks once lost).
As far as ranking goes, for me... FOR ME... it's Magic, then Kidd. Yes, I'm someone who uses the championships of central figures as a huge credit to that individual. So the fact that Stockton and Nash don't have one and now Kidd does, yes, that means something to me (actually, Nash hasn't even BEEN in the Finals, but that's for another discussion).
Big O? Yes, era counts for me, too. The game is harder today.
Isiah? This one just boils down to personal preference. No, Kidd is nowhere near the scorer Isiah was, and Kidd has never been a prolific scorer... BUT THAT'S WHAT I WANT FROM MY PG. That's EXACTLY what I want! I want a PG who thinks PASS FIRST... and if that isn't gonna work... FIND ANOTHER PASS... and if that isn't gonna work... SCORE.
Jason Kidd is the best 'basketball quarterback' since Magic, in my opinion. Magic WAS a better scorer, obviously, but that's why he COLLECTED championships (well, that and the fact that he played w/ 2 other Finals MVPs, and Kidd just now played w/ his 1st).
AND HOW DID YOU NOT MENTION TRIPLE DOUBLES?! People throwing out Big O and Magic in this Kidd discussion... and there are your 3 all time triple double leaders. Playoffs? It's Magic on top and Kidd in 2nd.
My main thing about having Magic and Kidd as 1-2 on my list is how they did what they did, which was completely opposite.
- Magic was fun, but highly competitive. He KNEW basketball, and loved to keep everyone on the team involved. He was flashy, smiling, competitive, and knew how to put the ball in the basket; very versatile.
- Kidd, on the other hand, isn't versatile at all. If he's on the floor, he's at the 1. Not the 2 or 3 or 3, like Magic sometimes did. He's the PG, period. There's a famous quote "Do one thing, and do it well", and that's Kidd. He's not flashy; he has thrown some crazy passes in his day, but I'd bet everything that if we were in his head, we'd see that the reason he threw that pass would be because he honestly thought that was the best thing to do right then, like he didn't even think about it. He's very calm and poised, hardly ever frowning or smiling. He knows basketball; he sees passing lanes to HIT on the offensive end and EXPLOIT on the defensive end better than anyone since Magic (and better than Magic on the defensive end), and he knows the trends of both his players and his defenders better than anyone (and again, better than Magic when it comes to tracking stats of his opponents).
Even in the Olympics, when he was on the court, it was all business. He'd throw a few lobs to people that need them, but for the most part, it was all business now, fun and celebration when we're done; no, not done with the game, but the tournament.
And speaking of the Olympics, he never lost an international game as a professional. Not in the Olympics, not in qualifying tournaments, never; 46-0.
1999 Qualifying tourney for the 2000 Syndney gamess: 10-0
2000 Olympics: 8-0
2002 World Championship: injured
2003 FIBA qualifying tourney for 2004 Athens games: 10-0
2004 Olympics: injured
2007 FIBA Americas Championship: 10-0
2008 Olympics: 8-0
He has 3 gold medals from qualifying tournaments, and 2 gold from Olympics.
