maybe i'm just overvaluing how good those lakers teams really were and how dominate shaq was back then..
again remember, all i am saying is that i think it would be harder for the spurs to win any of those 4 championships without duncan than it would be for LA to win any of those 3 without kobe
and if i was starting a team today and given the choice of drafting kobe's career to date or duncan's career to date.. i go with duncan, hence why i rate him higher all-time to date (i think both are top 10 all-time)
also ppl really need to look back at what ray allen was doing back then (yes i went and looked after i made my comment about beliving he would believing he would be the best replacement)
in 99-00 his bucks almost beat the pacers team in round 1 that eventually made the finals
in 00-01 his bucks almost beat the 76ers team that eventually made the finals
also ppl really need to look back at what ray allen was doing back then (yes i went and looked after i made my comment about beliving he would believing he would be the best replacement)
in 99-00 his bucks almost beat the pacers team in round 1 that eventually made the finals
in 00-01 his bucks almost beat the 76ers team that eventually made the finals
Kidd is the best PG the L has had since Magic. His leadership, poise under pressure is unmatched. Even when Dallas was down double digits throughout the playoffs it was Kidd that came off da bench and got Dallas playing there game. As u can see Kidd might not even score some games but he would b the reason the team pulled out da win. Put any other PG on da nets when they had back to back finals runs, they wouldn't make da playoffs. Take Kidd off da mavs this year they would've lost. He has the ability to make other players better and that's something most players can't do. If he was on da Lakers or Miami they would've won too.
Kidd is the best PG the L has had since Magic. His leadership, poise under pressure is unmatched. Even when Dallas was down double digits throughout the playoffs it was Kidd that came off da bench and got Dallas playing there game. As u can see Kidd might not even score some games but he would b the reason the team pulled out da win. Put any other PG on da nets when they had back to back finals runs, they wouldn't make da playoffs. Take Kidd off da mavs this year they would've lost. He has the ability to make other players better and that's something most players can't do. If he was on da Lakers or Miami they would've won too.
So I just sat thru the Simmons podcast. It was funny to hear them touch on a bunch of stuff I have brought up over the year.
So, I'll see if I can get thru my Lebron post here while it's fresh in my head.
Lebron James
I have zero chance of nailing the mans career as well as Allen did. But I can offer a perspective viewing it from the other side so to speak.
I like watching Lebron James play basketball. It's fun. Any time I turn on his game, I could witness historical feats, which is a huge reason I love sports.
Off the court don't bother me as much as some people. He's not perfect, this doesn't shock me at all. He's not a bad guy by any means, he's merely a 2000 and beyond mega athlete in the internet age. He gets analysed every step he takes. Some of the stuff he does irks me, but I understand that not all of it is his fault. A lot of it has to do with his fans and backers and how they make me feel about him, which is unfair to him. If not for his fans, I probably wouldn't mind Lebron at all. I may never like the guy, but I can certainly respect him.
Sadly, over the past few years a line has been drawn in the sand as to whether you are a fan of Lebron, or not a fan of Lebron. We are all at fault for that, but arguing sports is something we all love to do, hence us being in this very thread right now. Early on in my time here on NT, I became known for "hating" Lebron. That's my fault, I should have spoken better and made my points more clear when debating him. One thing that I learned to do was stop going in open view of everybody and asking tough questions, or making a negative comment, and instead I started asking certain fans of his questions thru PM's, or emails, or other means to simply discuss a portion of something, without all the hate and backlash and quoting and bickering and all that. I was trying to actually learn something from them, and also show them where it was I was coming from. I think, slowly, I have made some headway towards that end. I'll probably always be known as a Lebron hater, even if it is not true.
I was asked once last year why I pick on Lebron so much. My answer was simple, just long winded.
I was told the man was great. Elite, of the elite. So in turn, I expected great, elite of the elite work. I didn't think that was unfair, I just wanted what was told to me. It is possible, that maybe Lebron spoiled me into thinking every game was gonna be like game 5 in Detroit. Maybe that isn't fair to him, but I'm a fan, that's what I want to see. Theatre, greatness, the MJ factor. Final shot stuff. I'm talkin the final shot in Utah stuff, not just random game final shot stuff. Over the years, I was noticing small things. He looked the same in 08 as he did in 07 to me. In 09, he looked like 08. In 10, same as 09, etc etc. I don't mean his face, or his weight or any of that, his game. I watched Mike evolve. Change, do so many things, all over the court. I watched Kobe grow, change, evolve on any spot on the floor. I had example after example of shots they made over and over. When I watched Lebron, I couldn't find those. I could see him dunk all the time, get to the rim, all the time, start hitting 3's more often, absolutely. But I wasn't seeing the same shot 15 times over the course of multiple games. I was looking for them, but not seeing them. When I first brought this up, I did it wrong. I made it sound like the guy never touched a ball during his free time. I never meant to say that. But I have seen video of diff players and their workouts, and see them work on a shot so much, that in a game it's second nature to them. Picture Dirk taking that step back one legged @#$% in an empty gym over and over and over. The vid itself isn't important, the fact I then saw him take, and make that shot 95 times in the playoffs, IS important. It's a shot I have seen him work on, I know he works on it, and he makes it in games. When I watch Lebron, his shots were off the dribble shots, that were basically standing in a spot and then rising. It wasn't a spot on the floor, or a go to move he was using. The same thing can be said for the post game I was clamoring for. He just completed his 8th year in the league, and I am waiting to see certain things still. That disapoints me, as a fan. Because if and when those things come, then I will see true greatness, and it will be unstoppable. But he should understand, time isn't forever. At some point, he won't be able to use his God given gifts the way he once knew.
One thing I have noticed, and more so because of this year, that man can pass the basketball. And I mean, brilliantly. I am convinced it is his single best ability. After Magic, he is the best passer above 6-5 I know of. Even his jump passes, passes that maybe he shouldn't be making, hit the person right in the hands. He flicks a wrist, and the ball goes 40 feet and hits the target. It is amazing. In Cleveland he made many, but not enough talent to really show it or showcase it for him, in Miami with Wade/Bosh, and some shooters, it showed BIG time.
I thought after the Boston and Chicago series his legacy was going to get real clear. I didn't see Dallas being a team that could slow his legacy down. Then some weird stuff went down. Now I am left with almost the same questions I have asked many seasons before. Can he win it all? Will he win it all? Will he join Barkley, Malone, Ewing, etc? Is this why he chose Miami to join Wade? Does he know that he doesn't have it within him to win something? We honestly don't know what the heck happened now. Maybe he was just worn down from playing 4,000 minutes this year almost. Too soon obviously for that, he has time still, but he does not IMO have 8-9-10 years to dominate like some believe. His window is still open, wide open even, but it closes quick, he needs to get thru.
He took a ton of heat for not playing as well in the Finals, while Wade went nuts. I never really worried about that. If they won that series, Bron would have a title, playing well or not. I wouldn't care. Title is a title. Yes, someone may have shined brighter, great, but that takes away from no one. I simply look at Jason Kidd suddenly being called the second best PG of all time now, when 2 months ago he was BARELY a top 5 in most peoples eyes. Winning changes all. Bron gets a title, First, second, third bananna, I don't care, people would see it, process it, and apply it to him. I look at it this way, if he went out and dropped 40+ for 6 straight games, and the Heat still lost, or he went out and dropped 17 and the Heat won, which would he rather have? You all know the answer. Get the ring. All that matters. 6-24, or 9-27, who gives a @#$%, get the ring. One bad game, one bad series don't mean nothin over the course of a 9 month season.
Simmons mentioned a perfect example. MJ lost in 95 after coming back. People told him he was done, was too old, wasn't good enough anymore. Simmons mentioned that MJ flat out disappeared for the summer, and came back with a completely revamped post game. And MURDERED the league in 96. I hope, Lebron goes in a cave all summer, works non stop, and comes out next year with the biggest F you season we have seen since 96. If he does that, then I can safely say, yes, imo, he is now the best in the game. Until that happens, I can not in good faith pass that torch. He has to take it from me. I know I am in the minority these days, and I am fine by that, but these are the things that I personally require from the elite of the elite.
He will get accolades. MVP's, all NBA, this award, that award, etc etc, but just playin with numbers, if he stays healthy, plays to 35 or so, he could get past 32,000 points, and saaaaaaay, 8,000 rebounds, and 8,000 assists maybe?
Somewhere in there. Maybe close too. And playoff wise, possibly, 6,000 points (not done before, or yet at least) and maybe he could get to 1,500 boards and assists. If that does indeed happen.........
So I just sat thru the Simmons podcast. It was funny to hear them touch on a bunch of stuff I have brought up over the year.
So, I'll see if I can get thru my Lebron post here while it's fresh in my head.
Lebron James
I have zero chance of nailing the mans career as well as Allen did. But I can offer a perspective viewing it from the other side so to speak.
I like watching Lebron James play basketball. It's fun. Any time I turn on his game, I could witness historical feats, which is a huge reason I love sports.
Off the court don't bother me as much as some people. He's not perfect, this doesn't shock me at all. He's not a bad guy by any means, he's merely a 2000 and beyond mega athlete in the internet age. He gets analysed every step he takes. Some of the stuff he does irks me, but I understand that not all of it is his fault. A lot of it has to do with his fans and backers and how they make me feel about him, which is unfair to him. If not for his fans, I probably wouldn't mind Lebron at all. I may never like the guy, but I can certainly respect him.
Sadly, over the past few years a line has been drawn in the sand as to whether you are a fan of Lebron, or not a fan of Lebron. We are all at fault for that, but arguing sports is something we all love to do, hence us being in this very thread right now. Early on in my time here on NT, I became known for "hating" Lebron. That's my fault, I should have spoken better and made my points more clear when debating him. One thing that I learned to do was stop going in open view of everybody and asking tough questions, or making a negative comment, and instead I started asking certain fans of his questions thru PM's, or emails, or other means to simply discuss a portion of something, without all the hate and backlash and quoting and bickering and all that. I was trying to actually learn something from them, and also show them where it was I was coming from. I think, slowly, I have made some headway towards that end. I'll probably always be known as a Lebron hater, even if it is not true.
I was asked once last year why I pick on Lebron so much. My answer was simple, just long winded.
I was told the man was great. Elite, of the elite. So in turn, I expected great, elite of the elite work. I didn't think that was unfair, I just wanted what was told to me. It is possible, that maybe Lebron spoiled me into thinking every game was gonna be like game 5 in Detroit. Maybe that isn't fair to him, but I'm a fan, that's what I want to see. Theatre, greatness, the MJ factor. Final shot stuff. I'm talkin the final shot in Utah stuff, not just random game final shot stuff. Over the years, I was noticing small things. He looked the same in 08 as he did in 07 to me. In 09, he looked like 08. In 10, same as 09, etc etc. I don't mean his face, or his weight or any of that, his game. I watched Mike evolve. Change, do so many things, all over the court. I watched Kobe grow, change, evolve on any spot on the floor. I had example after example of shots they made over and over. When I watched Lebron, I couldn't find those. I could see him dunk all the time, get to the rim, all the time, start hitting 3's more often, absolutely. But I wasn't seeing the same shot 15 times over the course of multiple games. I was looking for them, but not seeing them. When I first brought this up, I did it wrong. I made it sound like the guy never touched a ball during his free time. I never meant to say that. But I have seen video of diff players and their workouts, and see them work on a shot so much, that in a game it's second nature to them. Picture Dirk taking that step back one legged @#$% in an empty gym over and over and over. The vid itself isn't important, the fact I then saw him take, and make that shot 95 times in the playoffs, IS important. It's a shot I have seen him work on, I know he works on it, and he makes it in games. When I watch Lebron, his shots were off the dribble shots, that were basically standing in a spot and then rising. It wasn't a spot on the floor, or a go to move he was using. The same thing can be said for the post game I was clamoring for. He just completed his 8th year in the league, and I am waiting to see certain things still. That disapoints me, as a fan. Because if and when those things come, then I will see true greatness, and it will be unstoppable. But he should understand, time isn't forever. At some point, he won't be able to use his God given gifts the way he once knew.
One thing I have noticed, and more so because of this year, that man can pass the basketball. And I mean, brilliantly. I am convinced it is his single best ability. After Magic, he is the best passer above 6-5 I know of. Even his jump passes, passes that maybe he shouldn't be making, hit the person right in the hands. He flicks a wrist, and the ball goes 40 feet and hits the target. It is amazing. In Cleveland he made many, but not enough talent to really show it or showcase it for him, in Miami with Wade/Bosh, and some shooters, it showed BIG time.
I thought after the Boston and Chicago series his legacy was going to get real clear. I didn't see Dallas being a team that could slow his legacy down. Then some weird stuff went down. Now I am left with almost the same questions I have asked many seasons before. Can he win it all? Will he win it all? Will he join Barkley, Malone, Ewing, etc? Is this why he chose Miami to join Wade? Does he know that he doesn't have it within him to win something? We honestly don't know what the heck happened now. Maybe he was just worn down from playing 4,000 minutes this year almost. Too soon obviously for that, he has time still, but he does not IMO have 8-9-10 years to dominate like some believe. His window is still open, wide open even, but it closes quick, he needs to get thru.
He took a ton of heat for not playing as well in the Finals, while Wade went nuts. I never really worried about that. If they won that series, Bron would have a title, playing well or not. I wouldn't care. Title is a title. Yes, someone may have shined brighter, great, but that takes away from no one. I simply look at Jason Kidd suddenly being called the second best PG of all time now, when 2 months ago he was BARELY a top 5 in most peoples eyes. Winning changes all. Bron gets a title, First, second, third bananna, I don't care, people would see it, process it, and apply it to him. I look at it this way, if he went out and dropped 40+ for 6 straight games, and the Heat still lost, or he went out and dropped 17 and the Heat won, which would he rather have? You all know the answer. Get the ring. All that matters. 6-24, or 9-27, who gives a @#$%, get the ring. One bad game, one bad series don't mean nothin over the course of a 9 month season.
Simmons mentioned a perfect example. MJ lost in 95 after coming back. People told him he was done, was too old, wasn't good enough anymore. Simmons mentioned that MJ flat out disappeared for the summer, and came back with a completely revamped post game. And MURDERED the league in 96. I hope, Lebron goes in a cave all summer, works non stop, and comes out next year with the biggest F you season we have seen since 96. If he does that, then I can safely say, yes, imo, he is now the best in the game. Until that happens, I can not in good faith pass that torch. He has to take it from me. I know I am in the minority these days, and I am fine by that, but these are the things that I personally require from the elite of the elite.
He will get accolades. MVP's, all NBA, this award, that award, etc etc, but just playin with numbers, if he stays healthy, plays to 35 or so, he could get past 32,000 points, and saaaaaaay, 8,000 rebounds, and 8,000 assists maybe?
Somewhere in there. Maybe close too. And playoff wise, possibly, 6,000 points (not done before, or yet at least) and maybe he could get to 1,500 boards and assists. If that does indeed happen.........
I have zero chance of nailing the mans career as well as Allen did. But I can offer a perspective viewing it from the other side so to speak.
I like watching Lebron James play basketball. It's fun. Any time I turn on his game, I could witness historical feats, which is a huge reason I love sports.
Off the court don't bother me as much as some people. He's not perfect, this doesn't shock me at all. He's not a bad guy by any means, he's merely a 2000 and beyond mega athlete in the internet age. He gets analysed every step he takes. Some of the stuff he does irks me, but I understand that not all of it is his fault. A lot of it has to do with his fans and backers and how they make me feel about him, which is unfair to him. If not for his fans, I probably wouldn't mind Lebron at all. I may never like the guy, but I can certainly respect him.
Sadly, over the past few years a line has been drawn in the sand as to whether you are a fan of Lebron, or not a fan of Lebron.
I have zero chance of nailing the mans career as well as Allen did. But I can offer a perspective viewing it from the other side so to speak.
I like watching Lebron James play basketball. It's fun. Any time I turn on his game, I could witness historical feats, which is a huge reason I love sports.
Off the court don't bother me as much as some people. He's not perfect, this doesn't shock me at all. He's not a bad guy by any means, he's merely a 2000 and beyond mega athlete in the internet age. He gets analysed every step he takes. Some of the stuff he does irks me, but I understand that not all of it is his fault. A lot of it has to do with his fans and backers and how they make me feel about him, which is unfair to him. If not for his fans, I probably wouldn't mind Lebron at all. I may never like the guy, but I can certainly respect him.
Sadly, over the past few years a line has been drawn in the sand as to whether you are a fan of Lebron, or not a fan of Lebron.
Ok, here is an update of what I have so far. One other list I want to track down and get in here is I remember Slam having a top 100 or something list a few months back. I wanna track that down and get it entered in, see how it compares.
Players we'll be working with.
Shaquille O'Neal
Steve Nash
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Ray Allen
Paul Pierce
Kobe Bryant
Dirk
Jason Kidd
Lebron James
D Wade
Kids like D12, Chris Paul, D-Rose, and Durant will not be addressed in here. They can be mentioned, or brought up, but no need to go thru their career, they are all just getting started, tho clearly they all had outstanding postseasons individually as well as their teams for a couple of them. We'll all be long gone by the time their resumes need to be looked at.
Questions that can be asked/answered, looked ahead to, projected, etc etc.
Big 3 in Boston, is 1 title a success, or failure for their collective careers?
Where will Nash end up to finish his career, in a chase for a title?
Shaq's legacy
Is Duncan done adding to his impressive resume?
Does Kobe have one last run in him?
Dirk and Kidd......TBA
Bron and Wade.......TBA
I found a top 11 all time player list from Brousard during the playoffs on Twitter, I'll post it here as a reference, along with Simmons Pyramid numbers. (If you know of any other media member lists, let me know, I'll put them with these)
MJ
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Russell
Oscar
Hakeem
Duncan
The Bill Simmons Pyramid (all time list with a fancy name
)
MJ
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Wilt Kobe
Duncan
West
Oscar
Hakeem Shaq Moses
Havlicek
Elgin
Julius
Pettit
Malone
Barkley Lebron Cousy Garnett
Isiah
Pippen
Stockton
Rick Barry
Bill Walton.
Admiral
Iverson
Willis Reed
Cowens
Frazier
Sam Jones
Iceman Gervin
McHale
Mikan Dirk
Nash
Ewing
Payton
Unseld Kidd Drexler
Thurmond
DeBusschere
Hal Greer
Cunningham
Worthy
Elvin Hayes
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
Dennis Johnson Wade
Pierce
Nique
Arizin
Heinsohn
Bernard King
Robert Parish
Nate Archibald
McAdoo
Reggie
Ray
Jerry Lucas
Alex English
Dantley
Pearl Monroe
Pistol Pete
Rodman
David Thompson
Lenny Wilk
Webber
Moncrief
Dumars TMac
This is his top 75 all time. He mentioned and made room within his top 96 or so for D12, CP3, and Durant, couple more years, I am more than sure we will be placing them in here somewhere. Only other active dude worth noting was Vince, he had him at 83 I believe.
My own personal top dozen players or so of all time. From CP1708 MJ
Magic
Kareem
Russell
Kobe
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Wilt
Oscar
West
Dream
Nash
Spoiler [+]
16K points, almost 10K assists, 2K playoff points, and top 5 or so all time playoff assists. 2 MVP's and 3 all NBA first teams.
No Finals apperances
No playoffs this year for Nash, so he didn't have the chance to upgrade some of his numbers. Solid career so far, but he needs a big finish to really elevate his status.
Bill Simmons Pyramid had him in the 40th slot or so all time. A nice finish to his career may move him up a couple slots, but I don't see him movin to much further.
He should be traded next year, but not sure yet where he might land.
3 Top 3 MVP finishes
7x All Star
Projected Years left, 2
Shaq
Spoiler [+]
What a career.
4 Titles, 1 MVP, 3 Finals MVP's, 8 All NBA first teams. 28,500 points, 13K rebounds, 5K+ playoff points, 2500 playoff rebounds,
6 Finals apperances
Top 5 in scoring both regular season and postseason.
He wasn't able to do too much this year due to age and injuries, but it won't take away from his legacy at all.
Simmons has him in the 11-12 range of his pyramid. Brousard at 7.
Shaq was a beast in his day, but my feeling is he left some numbers/accomplishments on the table. He didn't kill himself for the NBA like some did. Better work ethic, and he could have added another title or two, as well as a TON more stats. He was just that good.
5 Top 3 MVP finishes
15x All Star
Recently Retired
CP1708 wrote:I'll start my own personal takes with Shaq.
One of the greatest entertainers/personalities to ever play the game of basketball. He was born to be in front of an audience, but as great as he was playin to crowds, he was equal to that on the basketball court. His early years in Orlando looked like he would form a team that would be elite for over a decade. Him, Penny, Horace, Scott, Nick Anderson just looked like they were going to be impossible to stop. They could space you, beat you down low, play defense, run, they could do anything. The strange thing to me was, they always seemed to get swept. Almost like once you took a game from them, they sort of lost belief in themselves. At the time, I chalked that up to them being young. Maybe that was it. But then Shaq left and went to LA, and it happened there too. Again, a young team, but yet again, Utah and San Antonio both swept them early on. Of course, that was before Phil.
Phil found a way to motivate Shaq like no other coach had. Of course Shaq was also now 27-28 years old, it may have been easier to get thru to him at that time in his career than if Phil coached him at 23-24.
Shaq's runs in LA were nothing short of ridiculous. In 2000 in their first real true playoff run, they struggled out of the gate learning how to win. They were taken to the max in both the first round, and the third round by Sacramento and Portland respectively, and Indiana proved tougher than they looked by taking LA to 6. Shaq however was not slowed down much. He went for 30, 15 and 3 with 2.5 blocks a game. He also played 43 minutes a game, the most of his career. This was Shaq's peak clearly. Amazingly the next year they played 7 less playoff games, his totals? 30, 15, and 3, with 2 blocks a game..........
He shot 56 and 55 percent as well. He was a flat out beast.
Having got his back to back titles, complacency had set in with Shaq. It would prove to be the only thing that could stop him. He took even more time off in 2002, and the beginning of the end of his era had started. The Lakers were able to regroup and get in sync enough to win the title again to get a 3 peat and join the Bulls 50's Lakers and the 60's Celtics as the only teams to do so.
Him winning the 3 titles and the last 2 by taking time off each season started to wear on the team during the early parts of regular seasons however. This caused more and more issues and eventually players and coaches were taking sides. It was not pretty. He played 67 games 3 years straight, basically timing off 15 games extra a year.
That can't be a damn coincidence. LA was worn down going for a 4th title, and the Spurs were able to knock them off only after Horry's 3 went in and out in game 5 of the second round that year. It deflated the team, they never recovered, the series and the run was over.
Payton and Malone came in the following year to help them win again, and while they made the finals, they had a ton of locker room issues, and injury issues that tore the team apart. It was something that should not have happened, and it damn sure hurt a chance for some real legacy stuff to go on. We're talkin MEGA legacy potential. 6-7 titles type legacy. But once a 100% united Detroit team embarrassed LA, Shaq was ready to move on.
He went to his 3rd team in the NBA, and no suprise, his 3rd elite SG to boot. His first year in Miami he played more games, but less minutes to reduce the wear and tear on him. A wise move. They had a shot in 05 at a title, but Wade was injured and Shaq wasn't enough anymore to carry a team like that.
The next year however, Wade was healthy and they were able to come back from an 0-2 defecit and win Shaq his 4th ring. The next year, Shaq was swept in the first round. (I will never get the sweep thing that followed Shaq's career, never)
Shaq finished out his career movin around here and there to try and win 1 more title, but wasn't able to stay healthy enough to help out.
At the end of the day, he has top 5 all around numbers both regular and post season. His free throw shooting was so poor, that he could EASILY be the number 1 or 2 scorer all time if he hit closer to 75% of his freebies. The guy missed 1,100 free throws in the playoffs alone. And he was only 700 points away from most playoff points all time. Few extra games instead of sweeps and a few more made free throws and that record could have been his.
At his peak, nobody was seein Shaq's overall production. No one. Not even Duncan. As I said in my beginning statements on these players, Duncan will have squeezed every ounce of his life into his career, while Shaq will have saved about a quarter tank of gas. Shaq COULD have played more games, more minutes, made more free throws, etc etc, had he, his career and numbers would be Kareem like, and I'm not joking. But Shaq had too much fun to want to die for basketball. There's no shame in that, he's had a great career, but I only wish I could have seen what his numbers would look like if he did go all in.
One last note, many athletes are decent guys, give to charity, etc etc. Shaq was different. He was even better with kids/people than he was with basketball. We've all seen and heard stories about him giving gifts to people, buying this and that, dropping off toys on Christmas, all kinds of stuff, but Shaq is the real deal. Recently a small town out near my way ran a story of a kid that had cancer as a teen, he's now like 25 I think, and whenever Shaq is in Portland to play the Blazers, he takes that kid out to dinner. He's bought him a car, they talk thru the season via text or phone calls, Shaq even plans on being the best man at the kids wedding someday. Just a random kid from a city no where near any place Shaq has ever lived. The guy has done weird/silly stuff in his day, he's no angel, but when it comes to giving and charity and what not, he's elite as they come. To me, this part belongs in his legacy just as much as his stats do.
I personally have him #7 all time, behind Bird, and ahead of Duncan.
1 Title, 1 MVP, 4 NBA first teams, 8 NBA defensive teams.
2 Finals apperances
23K points, just under 13K rebounds, almost 5K assists, just a ridiculous amount of stats here. 2K playoff points, 1,000+ rebounds and almost 500 assists in the playoffs.
IMO has about 2 years left at solid level, but no longer elite level. He could finish out some nice numbers to his career, but they need a lot of help to make a last run at a title next year.
Simmons has him in the 21-22 range of his pyramid. Top 5 PF of the game in my book, but I feel like he left some gas in the tank for his career honestly. There was a lot of go-to stuff that followed him in his career
1DPOY
4 Top 3 MVP finishes
14x All Star
Projected years left, 2
Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1
I personally feel KG is overrated in a career sense. Dude couldn't even carry a team to the playoff in Minnesota before he went to Boston, Dirk routinely carried bums to the top 3 seeds in the West. KG is the best defensive PF no doubt, but he needs another player to carry the load defensively and at the end of the day, great offense>great defense.
I really don't even see how someone can argue KGirk anymore, KG won 1 chip with two HOF's who were still both playing at a high level. Dirk got robbed of one, and might win another and the 2nd best player on those teams were Jason Terry
. Take away Dirk and put KG on the Mavs dude might not carry them into the playoffs even.
If I'm making an all-time great team, KG then makes sense for his defense and versatility (In Simmons term, the Wine Cellar) but if I want a guy to be the alpha dog on my team I take Dirk over Kg 1,000 times out of 1,000.
He simply goes ghost on offense in 4th quarters. He still plays Defense, he still hustles, he still rebounds, sets screens, he's engaged in the game, but when the ball hits his hands, he can't move it along quick enough
KG was never ghost in most 4th quarters in Minny. The knock is/was clutch shots. That is, the very last seconds of an entire game. I'll agree that he lacks those last minute beaters on his resume, but like you said in the rest of your sentence, he still did everything, and we do mean EVERYTHING else needed for his team to win. The guy had much less help than his counterparts (Duncan and Dirk). He made Wally an All-Star for crying out loud.
His abilities were greater than what his team had to offer. Unless he had a shooter on his team that could routinely nail down three's, he was so much less effective because of the constant double and triple teams. He had to kick it out. Not to mention the lack of high quality PG's he played with. Terrell Brandon on the decline of his career, but even he deferred to forcing KG make things happen on triple teams. Billups used KG to resurrect his career then he bounced. Outside of Brandon and Cassel, there's not a soul. He took a lineup of Troy Hudson, Wally, Rasho Nesterovic, and Joe Smith to the playoffs, whereas Dirk had guys like Finley and Nash.
And KG took his teams to the playoffs. They'd just always lose in the first round. After eight consecutive playoff appearances, his last two years in Minnesota were with guys no better than those he had like the lineup I mentioned above. It wasn't a KG problem, it was a Management (McHale) problem.
However, after all this, He will probably end up the third best forward of this particular era behind both Duncan and Dirk. Garnett is close to the end and Dirk still has a few good years to continue is resume. It's a good argument between the two, but it's hard not to take Dirk over KG at this point and projecting to any point in the near future.
Originally Posted by Al3xis
Originally Posted by koolbarbone
KG never really changed his approach at the end of the fourth. He just prefers to shoot jumpers. That's his game.
could care less what KG has done or hasn't done in the clutch.
He could have scored 30 a game during his prime, instead he topped out at 24 and never shot more than 6 FT's a game for any one season.
30/13/5 seasons (which for this era would have been ungodly) were at his hands, he didn't go for it. I don't know..not wired that way, I guess...but every single skill needed to do it, he had.
I know I kill the guy often, so this sounds odd....but he has to be one of the most complete players I've seen. I'm talking zero flaws basketball wise. Prime KG was an athletic freak and was 7ft, Defense was a given. Rebounded, could pass. Face up jumper, jump hook, fade-away..it was all there. Comparatively speaking, Shaq was limited to 8ft and within, LeBron's jump-shot remains a flaw (for his 'greatness') Kobe is only 6'6 (if you have 2 complete players, the 7ftr wins out), Duncan was athletically inferior, Dirk can't defend or board to his level. And that said, all have had or are on their way to better careers and legacies.
Basically -- name me one thing KG couldn't do that doesn't revolve around his approach or mentality. One skill. Because I can't name one.
1 Title, and 1 Finals MVP
2 Finals apperances
21K points, just under 6K rebounds, and 3600 assists. Playoffs, 2300, 700, 450.
Pierce I feel the opposite of KG and Shaq. I think that Paul will have squeezed every ounce of his career into his resume, he doesn't miss a ton of games, he plays hard, he's had a very solid, very underrated career.
Simmons had him in the 54th all time slot. He's a Celtics fan though, so that could be a tad high. But, he still has time to get to 25K points, maybe another playoff run to add some numbers there, he certainly could be 50ish type guy. See what some others think.
0 Top 3 MVP finishes
9x All Star
Projected years left, 3-4
JD617 wrote:Paul Pierce is one of those guys who's had an old man game since the time he came into the league. One of the craftiest scorers I've seen. Only had/has average athleticism, but he's a master of getting his shot off with only an inch of space due to his array of pump fakes, jab steps, and spins. Always wants the ball with the game on the line and doesn't shy away from big moments.
He used to have some maturity issues when he was younger, and he and Doc clashed during their first season together in '04-'05. The infamous incident in Indiana in Game 6 of that year and the subsequent trade that fell through that offseason were turning points in his career. The next year, '05-'06, he fully embraced his leadership role and had arguably his best season. Averaged 27, 7, and 5 and was one of the most complete perimeter players in the league. Scored 30+ points in 13 out of 14 games including a couple game-winning shots, a triple double, and a 50-point game on Lebron in that stretch. Played his hardest in '06 and '07 when he could've gone through the motions (*cough* Vince) even though he was stuck with a bunch of idiots like Ricky Davis, Mark Blount, Gerald Green and Sebastian Telfair. Then the Ray and KG trades happened, and the rest is history.
Everyone remembers his duel with Lebron in Game 7 in '08, but Game 5 in the best-of-5 first round against Philly in '02 might've been the best game I've seen him play. It was his first playoff series and the biggest game of his career up to that point, and he put 46 on the Sixers on 16 for 25 shooting from the field and 8 for 10 behind the arc. Ended up getting that team within 2 games of the Finals with Antoine Walker and Rodney Rogers as his 2nd and 3rd best players.
Where does he rank all-time? I think he's knocking on the door of the top 50 if not there already, and he still has a couple more decent years left.
1 Title
2 Finals apperances
23K points, 4700 boards, just under 4K assists, and the all time leading 3 point shooter, and possibly the greatest shooter ever. Playoff wise, 2100 points, 450 rebounds, 370 assists.
Again, to me Ray has gotten everything from his career. He will have nothing left in his tank when he is done, and the way he plays, he could give us 2-3 more solid years. He doesn't have the list of achievements a lot of these other guys have, so he can't really be mentioned as one of the better players all time, but he has been a joy to watch play, plays hard, and has been very underrated his whole time as well next to other great SG's in the league during his era.
Lot of comparisons between him and Reggie, to me, I ride with Ray, but I can hear arguments either way.
0 Top 3 MVP finishes
10x All Star
Projected years left, 3
koolbarbone wrote:I love Ray, especially since he helped the Cs win a championship. However, his struggles in last year's Finals, save for Game 2, are the biggest reason why the Lakers won.
Give me Ray for the entire season, but for one series, one game, one play, I'll take Reggie every single time.
4 Titles, 3 Finals MVP's, 2 MVP's, 9 All NBA, 8 NBA Defensive teams
4 Finals apperances
21K points, 12K rebounds, 3300 assists regular season, in playoffs just under 4,000 points, 2200 rebounds, and 600 assists.
When Duncan is done, he will have given EVERYTHING he has in his tank. He will walk away with the greatest PF of all time label on him. If he has another year or two left in him, he should finish around 23K, 13K, 3500, and playoff wise, he'll cross the 4K mark after his next game, becoming only the 7th man to do so in NBA history.
A great player, a great person, a great leader, represented his franchise well his entire career. My only "knock" on him was never being able to repeat as a champion, or even make it to the finals in back to back years. 4 rings is still 4 rings, no question, but he was never able to make back to back finals runs. Even the Nets, or the Pistons were able to do that this decade. And of all the best of the best players the game has seen, they all were able to go to back to back finals at minimum, Bird and Wilt being the only ones that didn't repeat as a champions.
5 top 3 MVP finishes
13x All Star
Projected years left, 1-2
Kobe
Spoiler [+]
5 Titles, 2 Finals MVP's, 1 MVP, 9 All NBA teams, 9 NBA Defensive teams
7 Finals appearances
Just under 28K points, under 5900 rebounds, 5100 assists regular season, playoffs he sits at just under 5300 points, 1000 rebounds, and just under 1000 assists.
Quite possibly the second worst playoff season of his career. Detroit 04 being the worst mark on resume, being swept this year could be #2. The fact he missed the shot at the buzzer to get game 1 after blowing a 16 point lead will be brought up for years. But overall, his wins will overlook his losses. If he plays out his 3 year contract and enters the "Reggie Miller" portion of his career where he is the face of the franchise, but no longer the elite level he once knew, he will finish in the ball park of 33-34,000 points, 6500 boards, 5500 assists, and playoff numbers that will be tough to beat, possibly reaching 6,000 points to become the all time leader, and 1200 or so boards, with around the same amount of assists. What may shock people is, if he has a couple decent runs, say 2-3 rounds for the next 2-3 years, he could finish 4th all time in assists in the playoffs behind Magic, Stockton, and Kidd.
Think about that for a minute. 4th all time in playoff assists, for Kobe the ballhog.
That said, if he gets knocked out in the first round the next 3 years, well then nevermind what I just said.
5 Top 3 MVP finishes
13x All Star
Projected years left, 3-4
Dirk
Spoiler [+]
1 Title, 1 Finals MVP, 1 MVP 4 All NBA teams
2 Finals apperances
Just under 23K points, 8300 boards, 2600 assists, playoff wise, 3200+ points, 15th all time, shade under 1300 rebounds, and 300+ assists.
Dirk's resume will make the biggest jump this year. I would say within the top 25 all time, maybe even top 20. Elite across the board, regular season and postseason
Another 3-4 years and his numbers will get stupid.
10x All Star
Projected years left, 4-5
Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:Dirk to me has, in the playoffs for the past three years, reached a level of basketball nirvana. He never succumbs to the hero disease that have been plaguing superstars since the end of the Jordan era. Jordan becuase of the era he played in, his style of basketball and the mythology that proceeded him created this hero culture in basketball where we feel that the superstar has to take every shot, if he passes or makes the right play we view of him as less of player Dirk even succumbed to these pressures and that more than anything was the cause of the golden state collapse. I think in the process of getting older you loose the need to constantly prove yourself to critics, after 10 years in the league I think he realized he was no longer the skinny German kid trying to proove he belonged but a perennial all star and one of the greatest players ever.
He always makes that right play never forces up a bad shot, if you double him he will kill you with a cross court pass, he makes the game so much easier for himself and his teammates ESPECIALLY in the playoffs. I just think this run he just had has been perfection in terms of the way I look at basketball, and I will always favor the guy who makes the right play regardless of the situation or the amount of ego and glory on the line and Dirk Nowitski is the epitome of that.
2 MVP's, 4 All NBA teams, 2 all Defensive teams
2 Finals appearances
17K points, 4400 rebounds, 4300 assists, playoff totals include just under 2600 points, 775 rebounds, 650 assists
Numbers wise, he's going to reach heights that will dwarf almost anybody in the game provided he never gets hurt. But after seemingly answering questions about his big game performances against the Bulls and Celtics this year, they are back again after his finals performance. 10 career finals games, 0 25 point games. This is not allowed for someone proclaimed the best in the game.
7x All Star
Projected years left, 8
Al3xis wrote:here it goes
LeBron
i. The Basketball Player
Most ready and productive HS to NBA player out of the gate in history. Top 2 athletic force of nature I've seen since '93 next to Shaq (for this -- that's how far I'll go back with my own two eyes and living in that moment, not DVD's or ESPN Classic, can watch old game tapes all day but if you didn't experience THAT Time, you miss something.). Best open court player I've seen. Best skip passer I've ever seen. Best passing player 6'8 over I've seen. (again since '93 and this might the most advantageous thing he has at 6'8 260, not just running people over. Think of the flick of the wrist pass to Chalmers cross-court late in Game 2, nobody else makes that as effortlessly.). The flaws: Shooting, post-game, facilitator or scorer? and early on questions about defense. Defense was corrected early, some credit to coaching staffs he was under and also accepting that responsibility. When locked in on that end, he also turns into one of the top 2-3 help defenders as a wing player in the 'rover' role that I've seen next to Pippen.
Shooting flaw is still there. and it's odd. The mechanics of it come and go. He is a streaky shooter, but it's in the mechanics. The backside stays level and upright he probably hits at a 37-38% clip from 3. The legs start to go out, the fade away comes and it probably drops to the 29-30% range, you split the difference and it's right at the 33% mark he's been at. It will be interesting as time goes on, does losing some of his athleticism make it easier to stay centered and in good form as he is confined or does it do the opposite and create more reliance on 'arm shooting' with the rest of the body going different directions?
The post game. Flawed, but exists. Does he have a go to move? No. Does a double team get sent at him almost every damn time? Yes. People need to stop with the he 'doesn't have a post game' and reconfigure that statement to 'doesn't have post moves'. It's the part of being 6'8 260 that gives him one by default. He turns his left shoulder on the block against a small forward and he's right at the rim for a layup. My biggest issue with the lack of one is just simply because he doesn't do it enough. I loved Spoelstra working him off cross-screens this finals, why that didn't or doesn't happen more, I don't know..but I hope it does into the future. He passes as well out of those double teams as anyone. JVG brought up the point one night, why double? Make him make a move to beat you. The moves may not be there, but if a guy is getting doubled consistently and creating good offense, something exists. It's just not done enough.
Facilitator or scorer? I still don't know. Sometimes you get the best of both worlds, and that's him at his best. Other times he sits back too much. Kobe used and still does do the same 'feeling things out' but at his core everyone knew he was a scorer and at some point in the course of the game you're going to get it. At times, it just never comes for LeBron and he'll just go the other route all the way through (Game 4). But I'll say this, When Mo Williams went down last year in January/February and LeBron moved to PG and the Cavs went 11-0 with wins over LA (2x) Orlando, OKC..during that stretch he went with 31, 7 and 10 . For me, it was the pinnacle for LeBron as a regular season player. When a team has had to have been so overly reliant on him, we've got to see the best he has to offer in mulitiple facets of the game. The issue with this is....when you hit a certain point and against the best competition, it's like running into a brick wall. It's why he had to join another star (or 2). Jordan had experienced this, Kobe did as well. They got their stars, LeBron sought them out. It's a touchy subject. But, Now, playing next to Wade this is his biggest question mark..it trumps the jump shot. How does he achieve greatness at the highest level-- while still appeasing the masses statistically-- when playing next to someone like Wade? A jack of all trades faces an issue when you need to simplify..what is he at his core? Probably both a facilitator and scorer. The criticism about not having spots on the floor where he knows he's comfortable and can go make a play are fair. I think some are on the way (right block, turning over right shoulder and taking that FT line jumper being one & using the cross-screens) it may just take Spoelstra or Riley insisting on these spots for him.
The post-season. Some immense highs and lows. One thing that was interesting looking back is that we were 3 minutes away from getting a LeBron/Wade showdown in the ECF's in 2006. Would have added another layer in their storyline/relationship. Instead Cavs can't close Game 6 and drop Game 7. But back to the point... Game 5 in Detroit, then Game 5 in Boston. 45 on the road against Pierce in G7 in 08 then 9 turnovers and Knicks chants in G6 in '10. Maybe the epitome of it all so far is the performances against Chicago and Boston this year followed up by the Finals performance. Clutch or not clutch? Again, there have been a good amount of examples both ways. Maybe what we all are looking for in him is just consistency for better or worse? Defining his legacy would become easier, we just don't have a solid answer yet.
ii. The Decision.
A) The cop-out. I said the night it happened, he can't be Jordan (I never thought he could anyway, but this sealed it). There was and still a sense of him limiting his own ceiling. The only way that goes away is if he plays every ECF and Finals to the level he was against Boston & Chicago. It's still the fact that it is Miami and that is Wade's city. If he gets Dwyane to follow him to Cleveland or team up in NY, does the same feeling of Pippen/Robin exist? Likely to an extent from some but not like this..which leads to..
B) The Double-Standard. And this is more geared towards Wade. The man who won 4 playoff games in 4 years and people were then ready to anoint with 2 more wins this week. Wade plays like crap against the best regular season win team and LeBron plays great -- Heat win in 5. LeBron plays like crap, Wade plays great vs Dallas-- Heat lose in 6. Wade is in a great situation. All credit/no blame position. But the bottom line, LeBron has to be good to great for Miami to win it all. He is the better player, in the Finals, He was not. 'Robin' will not win champions for the Heat. And he has to have those great performances to validate a title in a lot of peoples minds. Fair or unfair.
C) The aftermath. A year removed, year one is in the books. Nothing but a championship every year is a huge failure given the situation he and Wade/Bosh decided on. Where it goes from here? Anyone's guess. I don't believe the limit on his greatness or legacy is as severe as we thought last July. Things are decided on the court and everything was being erased in those 2 Eastern series and then it got derailed quickly. His legacy can be enhanced or damaged either way. Being on Miami just crossed off the GOAT discussion with LeBron. Which leads me to..
iii. Social Media and the News cycle.
This is not exclusive to LeBron, but it does play into his legacy. As much as any athlete to date. I genuinely feel sorry for the next transcendent NBA player who even has a hint of arrogance. You have to have the contrived answers that Durant and Rose offer now. Have to. We enjoy arrogance, but not until you win. Kobe has said some off the wall +%%* to reporters the past year or two, but it's humorous and almost looked at in a playful manner at this point. That's just Kobe now. The competitor, not the dickhead. Because he won. Could you imagine the stuff that he and Iverson got into 7-8 years ago coming to light now with twitter and how instant info and access is available? Heck, we were one dumb reporter away from that Rasard Lewis stuff actually becoming a story. But, basically..here is a guy who grew up bouncing around homes in a single parent home with a part-time mother who emerged in the spot light at 16 and not once has encountered off court trouble. And this is who we turn into a villain? Arrogance, lack of humility, poor choices of words will be damning to any athlete from here on out. It has happened to LeBron and I'm not sure how he salvages his image. Can't turn into the guy who says all the right things, can't ride the fence and can't go all out dark side. There really is only one way -- to win. But for anyone to reach or attain GOAT status they are going to have to be so far removed from this current era it's crazy to think about. You still have huge MJ fans, you have huge Kobe fans..you have past players/coaches who speak on things to either prop up or tear down. It'd have to take another 50 years before all those people wash away before we can put another player on that pedestal. But at that point, who knows how the media handles a player like that?
And Do not get me wrong, he is responsible here for the heights it can and has reached. Stay off twitter. Nobody should know the names of the people in your entourage. They're your entourage. We shouldn't know your mom on a first name basis. It's not his fault entirely, but at some point you just have to say...look here is a check every month..let me handle my business with people who are actually educated and trained in these areas...and I'll see you in July.
iv. He's still 26.
So, I can't make anywhere near a final conclusion on what he is. I would say he is probably already on the back end of the Top 20 players of all time. But the clock is ticking and the hour glass got flipped upside down when they hit the floor this year. This was, to me, the first team he was on that was capable of winning a championship and he and his team failed. No way around it. There is (plenty of) time left, he and his teammates will need health..and maybe they get Pat Riley? But he has to win, you at least have to knock down that barrier before we start talking about Finals MVP's and who is what on a team. That stuff becomes secondary and subjective, the titles are there forever. There are still areas of his game to work on but probably as much as anything there is some soul-searching to do this summer, even more than last. Last year it was figuring out what was the best situation (debatable choice legacy wise, likely the correct choice basketball wise) Now, He has to figure: What works, when it works and when it's needed. The all time greats a) recognize it. b) execute it.
From 2008-2010 as a Cav we saw his absolute peak as an individual both athletically and as a basketball player and that greatness got him 2 MVP's. The team greatness? That's still in front of him to go after.
CP1708 wrote:So I just sat thru the Simmons podcast. It was funny to hear them touch on a bunch of stuff I have brought up over the year.
So, I'll see if I can get thru my Lebron post here while it's fresh in my head.
Lebron James
I have zero chance of nailing the mans career as well as Allen did. But I can offer a perspective viewing it from the other side so to speak.
I like watching Lebron James play basketball. It's fun. Any time I turn on his game, I could witness historical feats, which is a huge reason I love sports.
Off the court don't bother me as much as some people. He's not perfect, this doesn't shock me at all. He's not a bad guy by any means, he's merely a 2000 and beyond mega athlete in the internet age. He gets analysed every step he takes. Some of the stuff he does irks me, but I understand that not all of it is his fault. A lot of it has to do with his fans and backers and how they make me feel about him, which is unfair to him. If not for his fans, I probably wouldn't mind Lebron at all. I may never like the guy, but I can certainly respect him.
Sadly, over the past few years a line has been drawn in the sand as to whether you are a fan of Lebron, or not a fan of Lebron. We are all at fault for that, but arguing sports is something we all love to do, hence us being in this very thread right now. Early on in my time here on NT, I became known for "hating" Lebron. That's my fault, I should have spoken better and made my points more clear when debating him. One thing that I learned to do was stop going in open view of everybody and asking tough questions, or making a negative comment, and instead I started asking certain fans of his questions thru PM's, or emails, or other means to simply discuss a portion of something, without all the hate and backlash and quoting and bickering and all that. I was trying to actually learn something from them, and also show them where it was I was coming from. I think, slowly, I have made some headway towards that end. I'll probably always be known as a Lebron hater, even if it is not true.
I was asked once last year why I pick on Lebron so much. My answer was simple, just long winded.
I was told the man was great. Elite, of the elite. So in turn, I expected great, elite of the elite work. I didn't think that was unfair, I just wanted what was told to me. It is possible, that maybe Lebron spoiled me into thinking every game was gonna be like game 5 in Detroit. Maybe that isn't fair to him, but I'm a fan, that's what I want to see. Theatre, greatness, the MJ factor. Final shot stuff. I'm talkin the final shot in Utah stuff, not just random game final shot stuff. Over the years, I was noticing small things. He looked the same in 08 as he did in 07 to me. In 09, he looked like 08. In 10, same as 09, etc etc. I don't mean his face, or his weight or any of that, his game. I watched Mike evolve. Change, do so many things, all over the court. I watched Kobe grow, change, evolve on any spot on the floor. I had example after example of shots they made over and over. When I watched Lebron, I couldn't find those. I could see him dunk all the time, get to the rim, all the time, start hitting 3's more often, absolutely. But I wasn't seeing the same shot 15 times over the course of multiple games. I was looking for them, but not seeing them. When I first brought this up, I did it wrong. I made it sound like the guy never touched a ball during his free time. I never meant to say that. But I have seen video of diff players and their workouts, and see them work on a shot so much, that in a game it's second nature to them. Picture Dirk taking that step back one legged @#$% in an empty gym over and over and over. The vid itself isn't important, the fact I then saw him take, and make that shot 95 times in the playoffs, IS important. It's a shot I have seen him work on, I know he works on it, and he makes it in games. When I watch Lebron, his shots were off the dribble shots, that were basically standing in a spot and then rising. It wasn't a spot on the floor, or a go to move he was using. The same thing can be said for the post game I was clamoring for. He just completed his 8th year in the league, and I am waiting to see certain things still. That disapoints me, as a fan. Because if and when those things come, then I will see true greatness, and it will be unstoppable. But he should understand, time isn't forever. At some point, he won't be able to use his God given gifts the way he once knew.
One thing I have noticed, and more so because of this year, that man can pass the basketball. And I mean, brilliantly. I am convinced it is his single best ability. After Magic, he is the best passer above 6-5 I know of. Even his jump passes, passes that maybe he shouldn't be making, hit the person right in the hands. He flicks a wrist, and the ball goes 40 feet and hits the target. It is amazing. In Cleveland he made many, but not enough talent to really show it or showcase it for him, in Miami with Wade/Bosh, and some shooters, it showed BIG time.
I thought after the Boston and Chicago series his legacy was going to get real clear. I didn't see Dallas being a team that could slow his legacy down. Then some weird stuff went down. Now I am left with almost the same questions I have asked many seasons before. Can he win it all? Will he win it all? Will he join Barkley, Malone, Ewing, etc? Is this why he chose Miami to join Wade? Does he know that he doesn't have it within him to win something? We honestly don't know what the heck happened now. Maybe he was just worn down from playing 4,000 minutes this year almost. Too soon obviously for that, he has time still, but he does not IMO have 8-9-10 years to dominate like some believe. His window is still open, wide open even, but it closes quick, he needs to get thru.
He took a ton of heat for not playing as well in the Finals, while Wade went nuts. I never really worried about that. If they won that series, Bron would have a title, playing well or not. I wouldn't care. Title is a title. Yes, someone may have shined brighter, great, but that takes away from no one. I simply look at Jason Kidd suddenly being called the second best PG of all time now, when 2 months ago he was BARELY a top 5 in most peoples eyes. Winning changes all. Bron gets a title, First, second, third bananna, I don't care, people would see it, process it, and apply it to him. I look at it this way, if he went out and dropped 40+ for 6 straight games, and the Heat still lost, or he went out and dropped 17 and the Heat won, which would he rather have? You all know the answer. Get the ring. All that matters. 6-24, or 9-27, who gives a @#$%, get the ring. One bad game, one bad series don't mean nothin over the course of a 9 month season.
Simmons mentioned a perfect example. MJ lost in 95 after coming back. People told him he was done, was too old, wasn't good enough anymore. Simmons mentioned that MJ flat out disappeared for the summer, and came back with a completely revamped post game. And MURDERED the league in 96. I hope, Lebron goes in a cave all summer, works non stop, and comes out next year with the biggest F you season we have seen since 96. If he does that, then I can safely say, yes, imo, he is now the best in the game. Until that happens, I can not in good faith pass that torch. He has to take it from me. I know I am in the minority these days, and I am fine by that, but these are the things that I personally require from the elite of the elite.
He will get accolades. MVP's, all NBA, this award, that award, etc etc, but just playin with numbers, if he stays healthy, plays to 35 or so, he could get past 32,000 points, and saaaaaaay, 8,000 rebounds, and 8,000 assists maybe?
Somewhere in there. Maybe close too. And playoff wise, possibly, 6,000 points (not done before, or yet at least) and maybe he could get to 1,500 boards and assists. If that does indeed happen.........
Wade
Spoiler [+]
1 Title, 1 Finals MVP, 2 All NBA teams
2 Finals appearances
Just under 14K points, 2800 rebounds, 3500 assists, postseason play, 2200 points, 500 boards, tick under 500 assists
Elite level player, lot of good numbers, but will be 30 next season. Not many have the collection of number in 12 career finals games showing what he can do on the biggest of the big stages, but will need another 5 years of elite play to put his resume up next to others. If he does that, he cracks the top 25, currently, he's in the high 30's, early 40's imo. But certainly time to move up, ala Dirk.
7x All Star
Projected years left, 5-6
PMatic wrote:Dwyane Wade's legacy interests me a lot.
Great all around talent, NBA champion, Olympian and convinced LeBron to come to Miami among other things. In 11 Finals games, he's averaging 33 PPG and 8 RPG. Currently at the peak of his prime, with maybe another year or two left.
1 Title, 5 All NBA teams, 4 all Defensive teams
3 Finals appearances
Just under 17K points, 8200 rebounds, 11K+ assists, and in playoffs, just under 2K points, 1K rebounds, and 3rd all time with 1200+ assists.
Also 3rd all time in 3's made. Just incredible all around numbers. Only Magic is seein these type numbers.
I don't think the title bumps Kidd up much though. He earned it, he certainly deserved it, but to me this is like Payton getting his late in his career. He might move up a notch or two, but he doesn't jump 10-15 other players or anything like that. Certainly one of the top 5 PG's in the game though, but that list is getting packed tighter and tighter, he may not hold onto a top 5 nomination very much longer. If he can play another year or 2, his numbers will be just plain disgusting. LOCK HOF'er.
10x All Star
Projected years left, 1-2
JapanAir21 wrote:I want to talk about Kidd too.
10 years from now, we might look back on this Playoff run and say, "Ehh, Kidd was just along for the ride like Gary Payton was."
No, definitely not. Kidd didn't have the points this year to make him stand out, and he didn't have double-digit dimes every game, but what he did was what every single person in the world, including most Mavericks fans, myself included, though he lost. His biggest value to this team was as a defender. Turning back the clock, Kidd faced superstars ranging from Roy, Russell Westbrook, Kobe, Durant, Wade, and even LeBron. Did he ever shut down these guys for complete games? No, not really, but he got all of these guys out of their groove at some time in the game.
During this run, he wouldn't give up. He wouldn't ever admit defeat and let his man go off. Now I won't get blinded by the championship and say he was the primary defender on Kobe, Westbrook, Durant, Wade and Lebron ALL the time. He wasn't, it was a team effort with help from DeShawn Stevenson and Shawn Marion. But, with that said, when it mattered most, Kidd was getting the picks, he was the guy staying in front of some of the fastest guys in the L, he was staying in front of one of the strongest men in the L like LeBron, he was doing all he could in crunch time to make sure that these guys couldn't get off.
His perseverance is what allowed us to come back so many games. I don't know the number exactly, but the Mavericks came back from double-digit deficits countless times during these Playoffs. It was a run that was magical, one-of-a-kind, and how did they all begin? With stops on the defensive end. We tightened up, switched to the zone, did whatever we could, and Jason Kidd was right there at the forefront to lead us. You would have told me prior to the Playoffs that Jason Kidd was our best crunch-time defender I would've giggled, and the rest of the basketball world would have called you an idiot. But you know what? In the 2011 NBA Playoffs? He sure as hell did.
With all this said, you have to approach the question again of where does he belong? Among all the other players in the League, I find it hard to rank PGs unless their in their own class. Magic is obviously the one exception, but it's hard for me personally to put a label on John Stockton and say where he ranks all-time compared to other greats like Hakeem, Kareem, or Kobe. Obviously below all of them, but it's just a way to show how hard it is to compare PGs to every other position. In regards to Jason Kidd and where he ranks among other PGs? It's really hard for me to put him above guys like Stockton, O, and Isiah, but he's right there. He has the leadership of Isiah Thomas. He has the versatility of the Big O, and he has the longevity of John Stockton. The NBA will lose a great talent when this man retires. Kidd never had the scoring capacity that other great PGs had, and that's what will keep him from surpassing O and Isiah, but, I think being right there with them, in a 3A, 3B, 3C kind of ranking, isn't out of the question at all. Jason Kidd is THE role model of those who can persevere. Jason Kidd was one of the first players to really succeed after having microfracture surgery.
He's an old man, but this just proves that an old dog can learn new tricks (Or in this case, use tricks once lost).
23ska909red02 wrote:Gotta chime in on Kidd,
As far as ranking goes, for me... FOR ME... it's Magic, then Kidd. Yes, I'm someone who uses the championships of central figures as a huge credit to that individual. So the fact that Stockton and Nash don't have one and now Kidd does, yes, that means something to me (actually, Nash hasn't even BEEN in the Finals, but that's for another discussion).
Big O? Yes, era counts for me, too. The game is harder today.
Isiah? This one just boils down to personal preference. No, Kidd is nowhere near the scorer Isiah was, and Kidd has never been a prolific scorer... BUT THAT'S WHAT I WANT FROM MY PG. That's EXACTLY what I want! I want a PG who thinks PASS FIRST... and if that isn't gonna work... FIND ANOTHER PASS... and if that isn't gonna work... SCORE.
Jason Kidd is the best 'basketball quarterback' since Magic, in my opinion. Magic WAS a better scorer, obviously, but that's why he COLLECTED championships (well, that and the fact that he played w/ 2 other Finals MVPs, and Kidd just now played w/ his 1st).
AND HOW DID YOU NOT MENTION TRIPLE DOUBLES?! People throwing out Big O and Magic in this Kidd discussion... and there are your 3 all time triple double leaders. Playoffs? It's Magic on top and Kidd in 2nd.
My main thing about having Magic and Kidd as 1-2 on my list is how they did what they did, which was completely opposite.
- Magic was fun, but highly competitive. He KNEW basketball, and loved to keep everyone on the team involved. He was flashy, smiling, competitive, and knew how to put the ball in the basket; very versatile.
- Kidd, on the other hand, isn't versatile at all. If he's on the floor, he's at the 1. Not the 2 or 3 or 3, like Magic sometimes did. He's the PG, period. There's a famous quote "Do one thing, and do it well", and that's Kidd. He's not flashy; he has thrown some crazy passes in his day, but I'd bet everything that if we were in his head, we'd see that the reason he threw that pass would be because he honestly thought that was the best thing to do right then, like he didn't even think about it. He's very calm and poised, hardly ever frowning or smiling. He knows basketball; he sees passing lanes to HIT on the offensive end and EXPLOIT on the defensive end better than anyone since Magic (and better than Magic on the defensive end), and he knows the trends of both his players and his defenders better than anyone (and again, better than Magic when it comes to tracking stats of his opponents).
Even in the Olympics, when he was on the court, it was all business. He'd throw a few lobs to people that need them, but for the most part, it was all business now, fun and celebration when we're done; no, not done with the game, but the tournament.
And speaking of the Olympics, he never lost an international game as a professional. Not in the Olympics, not in qualifying tournaments, never; 46-0.
1999 Qualifying tourney for the 2000 Syndney gamess: 10-0
2000 Olympics: 8-0
2002 World Championship: injured
2003 FIBA qualifying tourney for 2004 Athens games: 10-0
2004 Olympics: injured
2007 FIBA Americas Championship: 10-0
2008 Olympics: 8-0
He has 3 gold medals from qualifying tournaments, and 2 gold from Olympics.
Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:Whoooooo now let the overrating of Jason Kidd's career begin.
I kind always felt Jason Kidd was always slightly overrated but now that he won his chip you guys are taking it to a whole new level. Jason Kidd is a great defensive player, all timer and you usual someone players who's elite skills are defense and rebounding often go under appreciated but for some reason not in Kidd's case.
I find it blasphemous to suggest Jason Kidd is better than John Stockton because for as good of a passer Kidd was he simply was not good enough to offsett his terrible shooting. Shooting from the point guard position is so integral in basketball it opens up the whole court, the numbers bear this out...unless you are a 6'8 PG who can see over the defense like magic bad shooting PG= Bad offense.
Go look it up: when Jason Kidd was the main cogg of a team that team never had an above average offense no matter how good of a "QB" he was his shooting still dragged down the offense and he was never that enough of a passer in the half court to offset that. John Stockton while not as good defensively is still great but on offense no question you would be crazy not to take prime Stockton over Ason Kidd.
If you have John Stockton on you team you are almost guaranteed to have a good offense, put Magic on the court with any five stiffs and he will get you to the playoffs with a great offense, put Nash on the court with any one and watch em get buckets. You can't say the same for Kidd and thus why for me he stays in the, Payton, Nash catagory rather than the Stockton, Magic.
Ok, here is an update of what I have so far. One other list I want to track down and get in here is I remember Slam having a top 100 or something list a few months back. I wanna track that down and get it entered in, see how it compares.
Players we'll be working with.
Shaquille O'Neal
Steve Nash
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Ray Allen
Paul Pierce
Kobe Bryant
Dirk
Jason Kidd
Lebron James
D Wade
Kids like D12, Chris Paul, D-Rose, and Durant will not be addressed in here. They can be mentioned, or brought up, but no need to go thru their career, they are all just getting started, tho clearly they all had outstanding postseasons individually as well as their teams for a couple of them. We'll all be long gone by the time their resumes need to be looked at.
Questions that can be asked/answered, looked ahead to, projected, etc etc.
Big 3 in Boston, is 1 title a success, or failure for their collective careers?
Where will Nash end up to finish his career, in a chase for a title?
Shaq's legacy
Is Duncan done adding to his impressive resume?
Does Kobe have one last run in him?
Dirk and Kidd......TBA
Bron and Wade.......TBA
I found a top 11 all time player list from Brousard during the playoffs on Twitter, I'll post it here as a reference, along with Simmons Pyramid numbers. (If you know of any other media member lists, let me know, I'll put them with these)
MJ
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Russell
Oscar
Hakeem
Duncan
The Bill Simmons Pyramid (all time list with a fancy name
)
MJ
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Wilt Kobe
Duncan
West
Oscar
Hakeem Shaq Moses
Havlicek
Elgin
Julius
Pettit
Malone
Barkley Lebron Cousy Garnett
Isiah
Pippen
Stockton
Rick Barry
Bill Walton.
Admiral
Iverson
Willis Reed
Cowens
Frazier
Sam Jones
Iceman Gervin
McHale
Mikan Dirk
Nash
Ewing
Payton
Unseld Kidd Drexler
Thurmond
DeBusschere
Hal Greer
Cunningham
Worthy
Elvin Hayes
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
Dennis Johnson Wade
Pierce
Nique
Arizin
Heinsohn
Bernard King
Robert Parish
Nate Archibald
McAdoo
Reggie
Ray
Jerry Lucas
Alex English
Dantley
Pearl Monroe
Pistol Pete
Rodman
David Thompson
Lenny Wilk
Webber
Moncrief
Dumars TMac
This is his top 75 all time. He mentioned and made room within his top 96 or so for D12, CP3, and Durant, couple more years, I am more than sure we will be placing them in here somewhere. Only other active dude worth noting was Vince, he had him at 83 I believe.
My own personal top dozen players or so of all time. From CP1708 MJ
Magic
Kareem
Russell
Kobe
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Wilt
Oscar
West
Dream
Nash
Spoiler [+]
16K points, almost 10K assists, 2K playoff points, and top 5 or so all time playoff assists. 2 MVP's and 3 all NBA first teams.
No Finals apperances
No playoffs this year for Nash, so he didn't have the chance to upgrade some of his numbers. Solid career so far, but he needs a big finish to really elevate his status.
Bill Simmons Pyramid had him in the 40th slot or so all time. A nice finish to his career may move him up a couple slots, but I don't see him movin to much further.
He should be traded next year, but not sure yet where he might land.
3 Top 3 MVP finishes
7x All Star
Projected Years left, 2
Shaq
Spoiler [+]
What a career.
4 Titles, 1 MVP, 3 Finals MVP's, 8 All NBA first teams. 28,500 points, 13K rebounds, 5K+ playoff points, 2500 playoff rebounds,
6 Finals apperances
Top 5 in scoring both regular season and postseason.
He wasn't able to do too much this year due to age and injuries, but it won't take away from his legacy at all.
Simmons has him in the 11-12 range of his pyramid. Brousard at 7.
Shaq was a beast in his day, but my feeling is he left some numbers/accomplishments on the table. He didn't kill himself for the NBA like some did. Better work ethic, and he could have added another title or two, as well as a TON more stats. He was just that good.
5 Top 3 MVP finishes
15x All Star
Recently Retired
CP1708 wrote:I'll start my own personal takes with Shaq.
One of the greatest entertainers/personalities to ever play the game of basketball. He was born to be in front of an audience, but as great as he was playin to crowds, he was equal to that on the basketball court. His early years in Orlando looked like he would form a team that would be elite for over a decade. Him, Penny, Horace, Scott, Nick Anderson just looked like they were going to be impossible to stop. They could space you, beat you down low, play defense, run, they could do anything. The strange thing to me was, they always seemed to get swept. Almost like once you took a game from them, they sort of lost belief in themselves. At the time, I chalked that up to them being young. Maybe that was it. But then Shaq left and went to LA, and it happened there too. Again, a young team, but yet again, Utah and San Antonio both swept them early on. Of course, that was before Phil.
Phil found a way to motivate Shaq like no other coach had. Of course Shaq was also now 27-28 years old, it may have been easier to get thru to him at that time in his career than if Phil coached him at 23-24.
Shaq's runs in LA were nothing short of ridiculous. In 2000 in their first real true playoff run, they struggled out of the gate learning how to win. They were taken to the max in both the first round, and the third round by Sacramento and Portland respectively, and Indiana proved tougher than they looked by taking LA to 6. Shaq however was not slowed down much. He went for 30, 15 and 3 with 2.5 blocks a game. He also played 43 minutes a game, the most of his career. This was Shaq's peak clearly. Amazingly the next year they played 7 less playoff games, his totals? 30, 15, and 3, with 2 blocks a game..........
He shot 56 and 55 percent as well. He was a flat out beast.
Having got his back to back titles, complacency had set in with Shaq. It would prove to be the only thing that could stop him. He took even more time off in 2002, and the beginning of the end of his era had started. The Lakers were able to regroup and get in sync enough to win the title again to get a 3 peat and join the Bulls 50's Lakers and the 60's Celtics as the only teams to do so.
Him winning the 3 titles and the last 2 by taking time off each season started to wear on the team during the early parts of regular seasons however. This caused more and more issues and eventually players and coaches were taking sides. It was not pretty. He played 67 games 3 years straight, basically timing off 15 games extra a year.
That can't be a damn coincidence. LA was worn down going for a 4th title, and the Spurs were able to knock them off only after Horry's 3 went in and out in game 5 of the second round that year. It deflated the team, they never recovered, the series and the run was over.
Payton and Malone came in the following year to help them win again, and while they made the finals, they had a ton of locker room issues, and injury issues that tore the team apart. It was something that should not have happened, and it damn sure hurt a chance for some real legacy stuff to go on. We're talkin MEGA legacy potential. 6-7 titles type legacy. But once a 100% united Detroit team embarrassed LA, Shaq was ready to move on.
He went to his 3rd team in the NBA, and no suprise, his 3rd elite SG to boot. His first year in Miami he played more games, but less minutes to reduce the wear and tear on him. A wise move. They had a shot in 05 at a title, but Wade was injured and Shaq wasn't enough anymore to carry a team like that.
The next year however, Wade was healthy and they were able to come back from an 0-2 defecit and win Shaq his 4th ring. The next year, Shaq was swept in the first round. (I will never get the sweep thing that followed Shaq's career, never)
Shaq finished out his career movin around here and there to try and win 1 more title, but wasn't able to stay healthy enough to help out.
At the end of the day, he has top 5 all around numbers both regular and post season. His free throw shooting was so poor, that he could EASILY be the number 1 or 2 scorer all time if he hit closer to 75% of his freebies. The guy missed 1,100 free throws in the playoffs alone. And he was only 700 points away from most playoff points all time. Few extra games instead of sweeps and a few more made free throws and that record could have been his.
At his peak, nobody was seein Shaq's overall production. No one. Not even Duncan. As I said in my beginning statements on these players, Duncan will have squeezed every ounce of his life into his career, while Shaq will have saved about a quarter tank of gas. Shaq COULD have played more games, more minutes, made more free throws, etc etc, had he, his career and numbers would be Kareem like, and I'm not joking. But Shaq had too much fun to want to die for basketball. There's no shame in that, he's had a great career, but I only wish I could have seen what his numbers would look like if he did go all in.
One last note, many athletes are decent guys, give to charity, etc etc. Shaq was different. He was even better with kids/people than he was with basketball. We've all seen and heard stories about him giving gifts to people, buying this and that, dropping off toys on Christmas, all kinds of stuff, but Shaq is the real deal. Recently a small town out near my way ran a story of a kid that had cancer as a teen, he's now like 25 I think, and whenever Shaq is in Portland to play the Blazers, he takes that kid out to dinner. He's bought him a car, they talk thru the season via text or phone calls, Shaq even plans on being the best man at the kids wedding someday. Just a random kid from a city no where near any place Shaq has ever lived. The guy has done weird/silly stuff in his day, he's no angel, but when it comes to giving and charity and what not, he's elite as they come. To me, this part belongs in his legacy just as much as his stats do.
I personally have him #7 all time, behind Bird, and ahead of Duncan.
1 Title, 1 MVP, 4 NBA first teams, 8 NBA defensive teams.
2 Finals apperances
23K points, just under 13K rebounds, almost 5K assists, just a ridiculous amount of stats here. 2K playoff points, 1,000+ rebounds and almost 500 assists in the playoffs.
IMO has about 2 years left at solid level, but no longer elite level. He could finish out some nice numbers to his career, but they need a lot of help to make a last run at a title next year.
Simmons has him in the 21-22 range of his pyramid. Top 5 PF of the game in my book, but I feel like he left some gas in the tank for his career honestly. There was a lot of go-to stuff that followed him in his career
1DPOY
4 Top 3 MVP finishes
14x All Star
Projected years left, 2
Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1
I personally feel KG is overrated in a career sense. Dude couldn't even carry a team to the playoff in Minnesota before he went to Boston, Dirk routinely carried bums to the top 3 seeds in the West. KG is the best defensive PF no doubt, but he needs another player to carry the load defensively and at the end of the day, great offense>great defense.
I really don't even see how someone can argue KGirk anymore, KG won 1 chip with two HOF's who were still both playing at a high level. Dirk got robbed of one, and might win another and the 2nd best player on those teams were Jason Terry
. Take away Dirk and put KG on the Mavs dude might not carry them into the playoffs even.
If I'm making an all-time great team, KG then makes sense for his defense and versatility (In Simmons term, the Wine Cellar) but if I want a guy to be the alpha dog on my team I take Dirk over Kg 1,000 times out of 1,000.
He simply goes ghost on offense in 4th quarters. He still plays Defense, he still hustles, he still rebounds, sets screens, he's engaged in the game, but when the ball hits his hands, he can't move it along quick enough
KG was never ghost in most 4th quarters in Minny. The knock is/was clutch shots. That is, the very last seconds of an entire game. I'll agree that he lacks those last minute beaters on his resume, but like you said in the rest of your sentence, he still did everything, and we do mean EVERYTHING else needed for his team to win. The guy had much less help than his counterparts (Duncan and Dirk). He made Wally an All-Star for crying out loud.
His abilities were greater than what his team had to offer. Unless he had a shooter on his team that could routinely nail down three's, he was so much less effective because of the constant double and triple teams. He had to kick it out. Not to mention the lack of high quality PG's he played with. Terrell Brandon on the decline of his career, but even he deferred to forcing KG make things happen on triple teams. Billups used KG to resurrect his career then he bounced. Outside of Brandon and Cassel, there's not a soul. He took a lineup of Troy Hudson, Wally, Rasho Nesterovic, and Joe Smith to the playoffs, whereas Dirk had guys like Finley and Nash.
And KG took his teams to the playoffs. They'd just always lose in the first round. After eight consecutive playoff appearances, his last two years in Minnesota were with guys no better than those he had like the lineup I mentioned above. It wasn't a KG problem, it was a Management (McHale) problem.
However, after all this, He will probably end up the third best forward of this particular era behind both Duncan and Dirk. Garnett is close to the end and Dirk still has a few good years to continue is resume. It's a good argument between the two, but it's hard not to take Dirk over KG at this point and projecting to any point in the near future.
Originally Posted by Al3xis
Originally Posted by koolbarbone
KG never really changed his approach at the end of the fourth. He just prefers to shoot jumpers. That's his game.
could care less what KG has done or hasn't done in the clutch.
He could have scored 30 a game during his prime, instead he topped out at 24 and never shot more than 6 FT's a game for any one season.
30/13/5 seasons (which for this era would have been ungodly) were at his hands, he didn't go for it. I don't know..not wired that way, I guess...but every single skill needed to do it, he had.
I know I kill the guy often, so this sounds odd....but he has to be one of the most complete players I've seen. I'm talking zero flaws basketball wise. Prime KG was an athletic freak and was 7ft, Defense was a given. Rebounded, could pass. Face up jumper, jump hook, fade-away..it was all there. Comparatively speaking, Shaq was limited to 8ft and within, LeBron's jump-shot remains a flaw (for his 'greatness') Kobe is only 6'6 (if you have 2 complete players, the 7ftr wins out), Duncan was athletically inferior, Dirk can't defend or board to his level. And that said, all have had or are on their way to better careers and legacies.
Basically -- name me one thing KG couldn't do that doesn't revolve around his approach or mentality. One skill. Because I can't name one.
1 Title, and 1 Finals MVP
2 Finals apperances
21K points, just under 6K rebounds, and 3600 assists. Playoffs, 2300, 700, 450.
Pierce I feel the opposite of KG and Shaq. I think that Paul will have squeezed every ounce of his career into his resume, he doesn't miss a ton of games, he plays hard, he's had a very solid, very underrated career.
Simmons had him in the 54th all time slot. He's a Celtics fan though, so that could be a tad high. But, he still has time to get to 25K points, maybe another playoff run to add some numbers there, he certainly could be 50ish type guy. See what some others think.
0 Top 3 MVP finishes
9x All Star
Projected years left, 3-4
JD617 wrote:Paul Pierce is one of those guys who's had an old man game since the time he came into the league. One of the craftiest scorers I've seen. Only had/has average athleticism, but he's a master of getting his shot off with only an inch of space due to his array of pump fakes, jab steps, and spins. Always wants the ball with the game on the line and doesn't shy away from big moments.
He used to have some maturity issues when he was younger, and he and Doc clashed during their first season together in '04-'05. The infamous incident in Indiana in Game 6 of that year and the subsequent trade that fell through that offseason were turning points in his career. The next year, '05-'06, he fully embraced his leadership role and had arguably his best season. Averaged 27, 7, and 5 and was one of the most complete perimeter players in the league. Scored 30+ points in 13 out of 14 games including a couple game-winning shots, a triple double, and a 50-point game on Lebron in that stretch. Played his hardest in '06 and '07 when he could've gone through the motions (*cough* Vince) even though he was stuck with a bunch of idiots like Ricky Davis, Mark Blount, Gerald Green and Sebastian Telfair. Then the Ray and KG trades happened, and the rest is history.
Everyone remembers his duel with Lebron in Game 7 in '08, but Game 5 in the best-of-5 first round against Philly in '02 might've been the best game I've seen him play. It was his first playoff series and the biggest game of his career up to that point, and he put 46 on the Sixers on 16 for 25 shooting from the field and 8 for 10 behind the arc. Ended up getting that team within 2 games of the Finals with Antoine Walker and Rodney Rogers as his 2nd and 3rd best players.
Where does he rank all-time? I think he's knocking on the door of the top 50 if not there already, and he still has a couple more decent years left.
1 Title
2 Finals apperances
23K points, 4700 boards, just under 4K assists, and the all time leading 3 point shooter, and possibly the greatest shooter ever. Playoff wise, 2100 points, 450 rebounds, 370 assists.
Again, to me Ray has gotten everything from his career. He will have nothing left in his tank when he is done, and the way he plays, he could give us 2-3 more solid years. He doesn't have the list of achievements a lot of these other guys have, so he can't really be mentioned as one of the better players all time, but he has been a joy to watch play, plays hard, and has been very underrated his whole time as well next to other great SG's in the league during his era.
Lot of comparisons between him and Reggie, to me, I ride with Ray, but I can hear arguments either way.
0 Top 3 MVP finishes
10x All Star
Projected years left, 3
koolbarbone wrote:I love Ray, especially since he helped the Cs win a championship. However, his struggles in last year's Finals, save for Game 2, are the biggest reason why the Lakers won.
Give me Ray for the entire season, but for one series, one game, one play, I'll take Reggie every single time.
4 Titles, 3 Finals MVP's, 2 MVP's, 9 All NBA, 8 NBA Defensive teams
4 Finals apperances
21K points, 12K rebounds, 3300 assists regular season, in playoffs just under 4,000 points, 2200 rebounds, and 600 assists.
When Duncan is done, he will have given EVERYTHING he has in his tank. He will walk away with the greatest PF of all time label on him. If he has another year or two left in him, he should finish around 23K, 13K, 3500, and playoff wise, he'll cross the 4K mark after his next game, becoming only the 7th man to do so in NBA history.
A great player, a great person, a great leader, represented his franchise well his entire career. My only "knock" on him was never being able to repeat as a champion, or even make it to the finals in back to back years. 4 rings is still 4 rings, no question, but he was never able to make back to back finals runs. Even the Nets, or the Pistons were able to do that this decade. And of all the best of the best players the game has seen, they all were able to go to back to back finals at minimum, Bird and Wilt being the only ones that didn't repeat as a champions.
5 top 3 MVP finishes
13x All Star
Projected years left, 1-2
Kobe
Spoiler [+]
5 Titles, 2 Finals MVP's, 1 MVP, 9 All NBA teams, 9 NBA Defensive teams
7 Finals appearances
Just under 28K points, under 5900 rebounds, 5100 assists regular season, playoffs he sits at just under 5300 points, 1000 rebounds, and just under 1000 assists.
Quite possibly the second worst playoff season of his career. Detroit 04 being the worst mark on resume, being swept this year could be #2. The fact he missed the shot at the buzzer to get game 1 after blowing a 16 point lead will be brought up for years. But overall, his wins will overlook his losses. If he plays out his 3 year contract and enters the "Reggie Miller" portion of his career where he is the face of the franchise, but no longer the elite level he once knew, he will finish in the ball park of 33-34,000 points, 6500 boards, 5500 assists, and playoff numbers that will be tough to beat, possibly reaching 6,000 points to become the all time leader, and 1200 or so boards, with around the same amount of assists. What may shock people is, if he has a couple decent runs, say 2-3 rounds for the next 2-3 years, he could finish 4th all time in assists in the playoffs behind Magic, Stockton, and Kidd.
Think about that for a minute. 4th all time in playoff assists, for Kobe the ballhog.
That said, if he gets knocked out in the first round the next 3 years, well then nevermind what I just said.
5 Top 3 MVP finishes
13x All Star
Projected years left, 3-4
Dirk
Spoiler [+]
1 Title, 1 Finals MVP, 1 MVP 4 All NBA teams
2 Finals apperances
Just under 23K points, 8300 boards, 2600 assists, playoff wise, 3200+ points, 15th all time, shade under 1300 rebounds, and 300+ assists.
Dirk's resume will make the biggest jump this year. I would say within the top 25 all time, maybe even top 20. Elite across the board, regular season and postseason
Another 3-4 years and his numbers will get stupid.
10x All Star
Projected years left, 4-5
Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:Dirk to me has, in the playoffs for the past three years, reached a level of basketball nirvana. He never succumbs to the hero disease that have been plaguing superstars since the end of the Jordan era. Jordan becuase of the era he played in, his style of basketball and the mythology that proceeded him created this hero culture in basketball where we feel that the superstar has to take every shot, if he passes or makes the right play we view of him as less of player Dirk even succumbed to these pressures and that more than anything was the cause of the golden state collapse. I think in the process of getting older you loose the need to constantly prove yourself to critics, after 10 years in the league I think he realized he was no longer the skinny German kid trying to proove he belonged but a perennial all star and one of the greatest players ever.
He always makes that right play never forces up a bad shot, if you double him he will kill you with a cross court pass, he makes the game so much easier for himself and his teammates ESPECIALLY in the playoffs. I just think this run he just had has been perfection in terms of the way I look at basketball, and I will always favor the guy who makes the right play regardless of the situation or the amount of ego and glory on the line and Dirk Nowitski is the epitome of that.
2 MVP's, 4 All NBA teams, 2 all Defensive teams
2 Finals appearances
17K points, 4400 rebounds, 4300 assists, playoff totals include just under 2600 points, 775 rebounds, 650 assists
Numbers wise, he's going to reach heights that will dwarf almost anybody in the game provided he never gets hurt. But after seemingly answering questions about his big game performances against the Bulls and Celtics this year, they are back again after his finals performance. 10 career finals games, 0 25 point games. This is not allowed for someone proclaimed the best in the game.
7x All Star
Projected years left, 8
Al3xis wrote:here it goes
LeBron
i. The Basketball Player
Most ready and productive HS to NBA player out of the gate in history. Top 2 athletic force of nature I've seen since '93 next to Shaq (for this -- that's how far I'll go back with my own two eyes and living in that moment, not DVD's or ESPN Classic, can watch old game tapes all day but if you didn't experience THAT Time, you miss something.). Best open court player I've seen. Best skip passer I've ever seen. Best passing player 6'8 over I've seen. (again since '93 and this might the most advantageous thing he has at 6'8 260, not just running people over. Think of the flick of the wrist pass to Chalmers cross-court late in Game 2, nobody else makes that as effortlessly.). The flaws: Shooting, post-game, facilitator or scorer? and early on questions about defense. Defense was corrected early, some credit to coaching staffs he was under and also accepting that responsibility. When locked in on that end, he also turns into one of the top 2-3 help defenders as a wing player in the 'rover' role that I've seen next to Pippen.
Shooting flaw is still there. and it's odd. The mechanics of it come and go. He is a streaky shooter, but it's in the mechanics. The backside stays level and upright he probably hits at a 37-38% clip from 3. The legs start to go out, the fade away comes and it probably drops to the 29-30% range, you split the difference and it's right at the 33% mark he's been at. It will be interesting as time goes on, does losing some of his athleticism make it easier to stay centered and in good form as he is confined or does it do the opposite and create more reliance on 'arm shooting' with the rest of the body going different directions?
The post game. Flawed, but exists. Does he have a go to move? No. Does a double team get sent at him almost every damn time? Yes. People need to stop with the he 'doesn't have a post game' and reconfigure that statement to 'doesn't have post moves'. It's the part of being 6'8 260 that gives him one by default. He turns his left shoulder on the block against a small forward and he's right at the rim for a layup. My biggest issue with the lack of one is just simply because he doesn't do it enough. I loved Spoelstra working him off cross-screens this finals, why that didn't or doesn't happen more, I don't know..but I hope it does into the future. He passes as well out of those double teams as anyone. JVG brought up the point one night, why double? Make him make a move to beat you. The moves may not be there, but if a guy is getting doubled consistently and creating good offense, something exists. It's just not done enough.
Facilitator or scorer? I still don't know. Sometimes you get the best of both worlds, and that's him at his best. Other times he sits back too much. Kobe used and still does do the same 'feeling things out' but at his core everyone knew he was a scorer and at some point in the course of the game you're going to get it. At times, it just never comes for LeBron and he'll just go the other route all the way through (Game 4). But I'll say this, When Mo Williams went down last year in January/February and LeBron moved to PG and the Cavs went 11-0 with wins over LA (2x) Orlando, OKC..during that stretch he went with 31, 7 and 10 . For me, it was the pinnacle for LeBron as a regular season player. When a team has had to have been so overly reliant on him, we've got to see the best he has to offer in mulitiple facets of the game. The issue with this is....when you hit a certain point and against the best competition, it's like running into a brick wall. It's why he had to join another star (or 2). Jordan had experienced this, Kobe did as well. They got their stars, LeBron sought them out. It's a touchy subject. But, Now, playing next to Wade this is his biggest question mark..it trumps the jump shot. How does he achieve greatness at the highest level-- while still appeasing the masses statistically-- when playing next to someone like Wade? A jack of all trades faces an issue when you need to simplify..what is he at his core? Probably both a facilitator and scorer. The criticism about not having spots on the floor where he knows he's comfortable and can go make a play are fair. I think some are on the way (right block, turning over right shoulder and taking that FT line jumper being one & using the cross-screens) it may just take Spoelstra or Riley insisting on these spots for him.
The post-season. Some immense highs and lows. One thing that was interesting looking back is that we were 3 minutes away from getting a LeBron/Wade showdown in the ECF's in 2006. Would have added another layer in their storyline/relationship. Instead Cavs can't close Game 6 and drop Game 7. But back to the point... Game 5 in Detroit, then Game 5 in Boston. 45 on the road against Pierce in G7 in 08 then 9 turnovers and Knicks chants in G6 in '10. Maybe the epitome of it all so far is the performances against Chicago and Boston this year followed up by the Finals performance. Clutch or not clutch? Again, there have been a good amount of examples both ways. Maybe what we all are looking for in him is just consistency for better or worse? Defining his legacy would become easier, we just don't have a solid answer yet.
ii. The Decision.
A) The cop-out. I said the night it happened, he can't be Jordan (I never thought he could anyway, but this sealed it). There was and still a sense of him limiting his own ceiling. The only way that goes away is if he plays every ECF and Finals to the level he was against Boston & Chicago. It's still the fact that it is Miami and that is Wade's city. If he gets Dwyane to follow him to Cleveland or team up in NY, does the same feeling of Pippen/Robin exist? Likely to an extent from some but not like this..which leads to..
B) The Double-Standard. And this is more geared towards Wade. The man who won 4 playoff games in 4 years and people were then ready to anoint with 2 more wins this week. Wade plays like crap against the best regular season win team and LeBron plays great -- Heat win in 5. LeBron plays like crap, Wade plays great vs Dallas-- Heat lose in 6. Wade is in a great situation. All credit/no blame position. But the bottom line, LeBron has to be good to great for Miami to win it all. He is the better player, in the Finals, He was not. 'Robin' will not win champions for the Heat. And he has to have those great performances to validate a title in a lot of peoples minds. Fair or unfair.
C) The aftermath. A year removed, year one is in the books. Nothing but a championship every year is a huge failure given the situation he and Wade/Bosh decided on. Where it goes from here? Anyone's guess. I don't believe the limit on his greatness or legacy is as severe as we thought last July. Things are decided on the court and everything was being erased in those 2 Eastern series and then it got derailed quickly. His legacy can be enhanced or damaged either way. Being on Miami just crossed off the GOAT discussion with LeBron. Which leads me to..
iii. Social Media and the News cycle.
This is not exclusive to LeBron, but it does play into his legacy. As much as any athlete to date. I genuinely feel sorry for the next transcendent NBA player who even has a hint of arrogance. You have to have the contrived answers that Durant and Rose offer now. Have to. We enjoy arrogance, but not until you win. Kobe has said some off the wall +%%* to reporters the past year or two, but it's humorous and almost looked at in a playful manner at this point. That's just Kobe now. The competitor, not the dickhead. Because he won. Could you imagine the stuff that he and Iverson got into 7-8 years ago coming to light now with twitter and how instant info and access is available? Heck, we were one dumb reporter away from that Rasard Lewis stuff actually becoming a story. But, basically..here is a guy who grew up bouncing around homes in a single parent home with a part-time mother who emerged in the spot light at 16 and not once has encountered off court trouble. And this is who we turn into a villain? Arrogance, lack of humility, poor choices of words will be damning to any athlete from here on out. It has happened to LeBron and I'm not sure how he salvages his image. Can't turn into the guy who says all the right things, can't ride the fence and can't go all out dark side. There really is only one way -- to win. But for anyone to reach or attain GOAT status they are going to have to be so far removed from this current era it's crazy to think about. You still have huge MJ fans, you have huge Kobe fans..you have past players/coaches who speak on things to either prop up or tear down. It'd have to take another 50 years before all those people wash away before we can put another player on that pedestal. But at that point, who knows how the media handles a player like that?
And Do not get me wrong, he is responsible here for the heights it can and has reached. Stay off twitter. Nobody should know the names of the people in your entourage. They're your entourage. We shouldn't know your mom on a first name basis. It's not his fault entirely, but at some point you just have to say...look here is a check every month..let me handle my business with people who are actually educated and trained in these areas...and I'll see you in July.
iv. He's still 26.
So, I can't make anywhere near a final conclusion on what he is. I would say he is probably already on the back end of the Top 20 players of all time. But the clock is ticking and the hour glass got flipped upside down when they hit the floor this year. This was, to me, the first team he was on that was capable of winning a championship and he and his team failed. No way around it. There is (plenty of) time left, he and his teammates will need health..and maybe they get Pat Riley? But he has to win, you at least have to knock down that barrier before we start talking about Finals MVP's and who is what on a team. That stuff becomes secondary and subjective, the titles are there forever. There are still areas of his game to work on but probably as much as anything there is some soul-searching to do this summer, even more than last. Last year it was figuring out what was the best situation (debatable choice legacy wise, likely the correct choice basketball wise) Now, He has to figure: What works, when it works and when it's needed. The all time greats a) recognize it. b) execute it.
From 2008-2010 as a Cav we saw his absolute peak as an individual both athletically and as a basketball player and that greatness got him 2 MVP's. The team greatness? That's still in front of him to go after.
CP1708 wrote:So I just sat thru the Simmons podcast. It was funny to hear them touch on a bunch of stuff I have brought up over the year.
So, I'll see if I can get thru my Lebron post here while it's fresh in my head.
Lebron James
I have zero chance of nailing the mans career as well as Allen did. But I can offer a perspective viewing it from the other side so to speak.
I like watching Lebron James play basketball. It's fun. Any time I turn on his game, I could witness historical feats, which is a huge reason I love sports.
Off the court don't bother me as much as some people. He's not perfect, this doesn't shock me at all. He's not a bad guy by any means, he's merely a 2000 and beyond mega athlete in the internet age. He gets analysed every step he takes. Some of the stuff he does irks me, but I understand that not all of it is his fault. A lot of it has to do with his fans and backers and how they make me feel about him, which is unfair to him. If not for his fans, I probably wouldn't mind Lebron at all. I may never like the guy, but I can certainly respect him.
Sadly, over the past few years a line has been drawn in the sand as to whether you are a fan of Lebron, or not a fan of Lebron. We are all at fault for that, but arguing sports is something we all love to do, hence us being in this very thread right now. Early on in my time here on NT, I became known for "hating" Lebron. That's my fault, I should have spoken better and made my points more clear when debating him. One thing that I learned to do was stop going in open view of everybody and asking tough questions, or making a negative comment, and instead I started asking certain fans of his questions thru PM's, or emails, or other means to simply discuss a portion of something, without all the hate and backlash and quoting and bickering and all that. I was trying to actually learn something from them, and also show them where it was I was coming from. I think, slowly, I have made some headway towards that end. I'll probably always be known as a Lebron hater, even if it is not true.
I was asked once last year why I pick on Lebron so much. My answer was simple, just long winded.
I was told the man was great. Elite, of the elite. So in turn, I expected great, elite of the elite work. I didn't think that was unfair, I just wanted what was told to me. It is possible, that maybe Lebron spoiled me into thinking every game was gonna be like game 5 in Detroit. Maybe that isn't fair to him, but I'm a fan, that's what I want to see. Theatre, greatness, the MJ factor. Final shot stuff. I'm talkin the final shot in Utah stuff, not just random game final shot stuff. Over the years, I was noticing small things. He looked the same in 08 as he did in 07 to me. In 09, he looked like 08. In 10, same as 09, etc etc. I don't mean his face, or his weight or any of that, his game. I watched Mike evolve. Change, do so many things, all over the court. I watched Kobe grow, change, evolve on any spot on the floor. I had example after example of shots they made over and over. When I watched Lebron, I couldn't find those. I could see him dunk all the time, get to the rim, all the time, start hitting 3's more often, absolutely. But I wasn't seeing the same shot 15 times over the course of multiple games. I was looking for them, but not seeing them. When I first brought this up, I did it wrong. I made it sound like the guy never touched a ball during his free time. I never meant to say that. But I have seen video of diff players and their workouts, and see them work on a shot so much, that in a game it's second nature to them. Picture Dirk taking that step back one legged @#$% in an empty gym over and over and over. The vid itself isn't important, the fact I then saw him take, and make that shot 95 times in the playoffs, IS important. It's a shot I have seen him work on, I know he works on it, and he makes it in games. When I watch Lebron, his shots were off the dribble shots, that were basically standing in a spot and then rising. It wasn't a spot on the floor, or a go to move he was using. The same thing can be said for the post game I was clamoring for. He just completed his 8th year in the league, and I am waiting to see certain things still. That disapoints me, as a fan. Because if and when those things come, then I will see true greatness, and it will be unstoppable. But he should understand, time isn't forever. At some point, he won't be able to use his God given gifts the way he once knew.
One thing I have noticed, and more so because of this year, that man can pass the basketball. And I mean, brilliantly. I am convinced it is his single best ability. After Magic, he is the best passer above 6-5 I know of. Even his jump passes, passes that maybe he shouldn't be making, hit the person right in the hands. He flicks a wrist, and the ball goes 40 feet and hits the target. It is amazing. In Cleveland he made many, but not enough talent to really show it or showcase it for him, in Miami with Wade/Bosh, and some shooters, it showed BIG time.
I thought after the Boston and Chicago series his legacy was going to get real clear. I didn't see Dallas being a team that could slow his legacy down. Then some weird stuff went down. Now I am left with almost the same questions I have asked many seasons before. Can he win it all? Will he win it all? Will he join Barkley, Malone, Ewing, etc? Is this why he chose Miami to join Wade? Does he know that he doesn't have it within him to win something? We honestly don't know what the heck happened now. Maybe he was just worn down from playing 4,000 minutes this year almost. Too soon obviously for that, he has time still, but he does not IMO have 8-9-10 years to dominate like some believe. His window is still open, wide open even, but it closes quick, he needs to get thru.
He took a ton of heat for not playing as well in the Finals, while Wade went nuts. I never really worried about that. If they won that series, Bron would have a title, playing well or not. I wouldn't care. Title is a title. Yes, someone may have shined brighter, great, but that takes away from no one. I simply look at Jason Kidd suddenly being called the second best PG of all time now, when 2 months ago he was BARELY a top 5 in most peoples eyes. Winning changes all. Bron gets a title, First, second, third bananna, I don't care, people would see it, process it, and apply it to him. I look at it this way, if he went out and dropped 40+ for 6 straight games, and the Heat still lost, or he went out and dropped 17 and the Heat won, which would he rather have? You all know the answer. Get the ring. All that matters. 6-24, or 9-27, who gives a @#$%, get the ring. One bad game, one bad series don't mean nothin over the course of a 9 month season.
Simmons mentioned a perfect example. MJ lost in 95 after coming back. People told him he was done, was too old, wasn't good enough anymore. Simmons mentioned that MJ flat out disappeared for the summer, and came back with a completely revamped post game. And MURDERED the league in 96. I hope, Lebron goes in a cave all summer, works non stop, and comes out next year with the biggest F you season we have seen since 96. If he does that, then I can safely say, yes, imo, he is now the best in the game. Until that happens, I can not in good faith pass that torch. He has to take it from me. I know I am in the minority these days, and I am fine by that, but these are the things that I personally require from the elite of the elite.
He will get accolades. MVP's, all NBA, this award, that award, etc etc, but just playin with numbers, if he stays healthy, plays to 35 or so, he could get past 32,000 points, and saaaaaaay, 8,000 rebounds, and 8,000 assists maybe?
Somewhere in there. Maybe close too. And playoff wise, possibly, 6,000 points (not done before, or yet at least) and maybe he could get to 1,500 boards and assists. If that does indeed happen.........
Wade
Spoiler [+]
1 Title, 1 Finals MVP, 2 All NBA teams
2 Finals appearances
Just under 14K points, 2800 rebounds, 3500 assists, postseason play, 2200 points, 500 boards, tick under 500 assists
Elite level player, lot of good numbers, but will be 30 next season. Not many have the collection of number in 12 career finals games showing what he can do on the biggest of the big stages, but will need another 5 years of elite play to put his resume up next to others. If he does that, he cracks the top 25, currently, he's in the high 30's, early 40's imo. But certainly time to move up, ala Dirk.
7x All Star
Projected years left, 5-6
PMatic wrote:Dwyane Wade's legacy interests me a lot.
Great all around talent, NBA champion, Olympian and convinced LeBron to come to Miami among other things. In 11 Finals games, he's averaging 33 PPG and 8 RPG. Currently at the peak of his prime, with maybe another year or two left.
1 Title, 5 All NBA teams, 4 all Defensive teams
3 Finals appearances
Just under 17K points, 8200 rebounds, 11K+ assists, and in playoffs, just under 2K points, 1K rebounds, and 3rd all time with 1200+ assists.
Also 3rd all time in 3's made. Just incredible all around numbers. Only Magic is seein these type numbers.
I don't think the title bumps Kidd up much though. He earned it, he certainly deserved it, but to me this is like Payton getting his late in his career. He might move up a notch or two, but he doesn't jump 10-15 other players or anything like that. Certainly one of the top 5 PG's in the game though, but that list is getting packed tighter and tighter, he may not hold onto a top 5 nomination very much longer. If he can play another year or 2, his numbers will be just plain disgusting. LOCK HOF'er.
10x All Star
Projected years left, 1-2
JapanAir21 wrote:I want to talk about Kidd too.
10 years from now, we might look back on this Playoff run and say, "Ehh, Kidd was just along for the ride like Gary Payton was."
No, definitely not. Kidd didn't have the points this year to make him stand out, and he didn't have double-digit dimes every game, but what he did was what every single person in the world, including most Mavericks fans, myself included, though he lost. His biggest value to this team was as a defender. Turning back the clock, Kidd faced superstars ranging from Roy, Russell Westbrook, Kobe, Durant, Wade, and even LeBron. Did he ever shut down these guys for complete games? No, not really, but he got all of these guys out of their groove at some time in the game.
During this run, he wouldn't give up. He wouldn't ever admit defeat and let his man go off. Now I won't get blinded by the championship and say he was the primary defender on Kobe, Westbrook, Durant, Wade and Lebron ALL the time. He wasn't, it was a team effort with help from DeShawn Stevenson and Shawn Marion. But, with that said, when it mattered most, Kidd was getting the picks, he was the guy staying in front of some of the fastest guys in the L, he was staying in front of one of the strongest men in the L like LeBron, he was doing all he could in crunch time to make sure that these guys couldn't get off.
His perseverance is what allowed us to come back so many games. I don't know the number exactly, but the Mavericks came back from double-digit deficits countless times during these Playoffs. It was a run that was magical, one-of-a-kind, and how did they all begin? With stops on the defensive end. We tightened up, switched to the zone, did whatever we could, and Jason Kidd was right there at the forefront to lead us. You would have told me prior to the Playoffs that Jason Kidd was our best crunch-time defender I would've giggled, and the rest of the basketball world would have called you an idiot. But you know what? In the 2011 NBA Playoffs? He sure as hell did.
With all this said, you have to approach the question again of where does he belong? Among all the other players in the League, I find it hard to rank PGs unless their in their own class. Magic is obviously the one exception, but it's hard for me personally to put a label on John Stockton and say where he ranks all-time compared to other greats like Hakeem, Kareem, or Kobe. Obviously below all of them, but it's just a way to show how hard it is to compare PGs to every other position. In regards to Jason Kidd and where he ranks among other PGs? It's really hard for me to put him above guys like Stockton, O, and Isiah, but he's right there. He has the leadership of Isiah Thomas. He has the versatility of the Big O, and he has the longevity of John Stockton. The NBA will lose a great talent when this man retires. Kidd never had the scoring capacity that other great PGs had, and that's what will keep him from surpassing O and Isiah, but, I think being right there with them, in a 3A, 3B, 3C kind of ranking, isn't out of the question at all. Jason Kidd is THE role model of those who can persevere. Jason Kidd was one of the first players to really succeed after having microfracture surgery.
He's an old man, but this just proves that an old dog can learn new tricks (Or in this case, use tricks once lost).
23ska909red02 wrote:Gotta chime in on Kidd,
As far as ranking goes, for me... FOR ME... it's Magic, then Kidd. Yes, I'm someone who uses the championships of central figures as a huge credit to that individual. So the fact that Stockton and Nash don't have one and now Kidd does, yes, that means something to me (actually, Nash hasn't even BEEN in the Finals, but that's for another discussion).
Big O? Yes, era counts for me, too. The game is harder today.
Isiah? This one just boils down to personal preference. No, Kidd is nowhere near the scorer Isiah was, and Kidd has never been a prolific scorer... BUT THAT'S WHAT I WANT FROM MY PG. That's EXACTLY what I want! I want a PG who thinks PASS FIRST... and if that isn't gonna work... FIND ANOTHER PASS... and if that isn't gonna work... SCORE.
Jason Kidd is the best 'basketball quarterback' since Magic, in my opinion. Magic WAS a better scorer, obviously, but that's why he COLLECTED championships (well, that and the fact that he played w/ 2 other Finals MVPs, and Kidd just now played w/ his 1st).
AND HOW DID YOU NOT MENTION TRIPLE DOUBLES?! People throwing out Big O and Magic in this Kidd discussion... and there are your 3 all time triple double leaders. Playoffs? It's Magic on top and Kidd in 2nd.
My main thing about having Magic and Kidd as 1-2 on my list is how they did what they did, which was completely opposite.
- Magic was fun, but highly competitive. He KNEW basketball, and loved to keep everyone on the team involved. He was flashy, smiling, competitive, and knew how to put the ball in the basket; very versatile.
- Kidd, on the other hand, isn't versatile at all. If he's on the floor, he's at the 1. Not the 2 or 3 or 3, like Magic sometimes did. He's the PG, period. There's a famous quote "Do one thing, and do it well", and that's Kidd. He's not flashy; he has thrown some crazy passes in his day, but I'd bet everything that if we were in his head, we'd see that the reason he threw that pass would be because he honestly thought that was the best thing to do right then, like he didn't even think about it. He's very calm and poised, hardly ever frowning or smiling. He knows basketball; he sees passing lanes to HIT on the offensive end and EXPLOIT on the defensive end better than anyone since Magic (and better than Magic on the defensive end), and he knows the trends of both his players and his defenders better than anyone (and again, better than Magic when it comes to tracking stats of his opponents).
Even in the Olympics, when he was on the court, it was all business. He'd throw a few lobs to people that need them, but for the most part, it was all business now, fun and celebration when we're done; no, not done with the game, but the tournament.
And speaking of the Olympics, he never lost an international game as a professional. Not in the Olympics, not in qualifying tournaments, never; 46-0.
1999 Qualifying tourney for the 2000 Syndney gamess: 10-0
2000 Olympics: 8-0
2002 World Championship: injured
2003 FIBA qualifying tourney for 2004 Athens games: 10-0
2004 Olympics: injured
2007 FIBA Americas Championship: 10-0
2008 Olympics: 8-0
He has 3 gold medals from qualifying tournaments, and 2 gold from Olympics.
Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:Whoooooo now let the overrating of Jason Kidd's career begin.
I kind always felt Jason Kidd was always slightly overrated but now that he won his chip you guys are taking it to a whole new level. Jason Kidd is a great defensive player, all timer and you usual someone players who's elite skills are defense and rebounding often go under appreciated but for some reason not in Kidd's case.
I find it blasphemous to suggest Jason Kidd is better than John Stockton because for as good of a passer Kidd was he simply was not good enough to offsett his terrible shooting. Shooting from the point guard position is so integral in basketball it opens up the whole court, the numbers bear this out...unless you are a 6'8 PG who can see over the defense like magic bad shooting PG= Bad offense.
Go look it up: when Jason Kidd was the main cogg of a team that team never had an above average offense no matter how good of a "QB" he was his shooting still dragged down the offense and he was never that enough of a passer in the half court to offset that. John Stockton while not as good defensively is still great but on offense no question you would be crazy not to take prime Stockton over Ason Kidd.
If you have John Stockton on you team you are almost guaranteed to have a good offense, put Magic on the court with any five stiffs and he will get you to the playoffs with a great offense, put Nash on the court with any one and watch em get buckets. You can't say the same for Kidd and thus why for me he stays in the, Payton, Nash catagory rather than the Stockton, Magic.
CP, I have that issue if you want me to grab the list. It's actually like Top 500, but I could list the Top 100, Top 50, or whatever you want. It'll only take a second.
CP, I have that issue if you want me to grab the list. It's actually like Top 500, but I could list the Top 100, Top 50, or whatever you want. It'll only take a second.
Also if anybody cares, we can estimate Oscar Robertson's rebound rate in the the 60's and in his prime, Oscar Robertson would be about the same as Lebron James as far as rebounding if he played in todays NBA. The pace was excellent din the 60's and players missed more shots = more rebounds.
Evidence suggests that Jason Kidd and Magic Johnson are the best rebounding PG's ever, honorable mention to Fat Lever.
Also if anybody cares, we can estimate Oscar Robertson's rebound rate in the the 60's and in his prime, Oscar Robertson would be about the same as Lebron James as far as rebounding if he played in todays NBA. The pace was excellent din the 60's and players missed more shots = more rebounds.
Evidence suggests that Jason Kidd and Magic Johnson are the best rebounding PG's ever, honorable mention to Fat Lever.
maybe i'm just overvaluing how good those lakers teams really were and how dominate shaq was back then..
again remember, all i am saying is that i think it would be harder for the spurs to win any of those 4 championships without duncan than it would be for LA to win any of those 3 without kobe
and if i was starting a team today and given the choice of drafting kobe's career to date or duncan's career to date.. i go with duncan, hence why i rate him higher all-time to date (i think both are top 10 all-time)
Completely agree with your post above here....I have TD over Kobe in my all-time list as well.
All i was disputing before was the fact that some folks believe you can easily replace Kobe with any Star SG from that era and the 3peat happens all the same...not that im saying it's impossible, but it's not as easy as some make it sound to be. There's a reason why 3peats are extremely rare...but i think i've said enough about this subject, and i guess people can just agree to disagree...moving along.....
maybe i'm just overvaluing how good those lakers teams really were and how dominate shaq was back then..
again remember, all i am saying is that i think it would be harder for the spurs to win any of those 4 championships without duncan than it would be for LA to win any of those 3 without kobe
and if i was starting a team today and given the choice of drafting kobe's career to date or duncan's career to date.. i go with duncan, hence why i rate him higher all-time to date (i think both are top 10 all-time)
Completely agree with your post above here....I have TD over Kobe in my all-time list as well.
All i was disputing before was the fact that some folks believe you can easily replace Kobe with any Star SG from that era and the 3peat happens all the same...not that im saying it's impossible, but it's not as easy as some make it sound to be. There's a reason why 3peats are extremely rare...but i think i've said enough about this subject, and i guess people can just agree to disagree...moving along.....
I know people don't like this, but I would prefer to see a position based ranking system. Instead of grouping everyone together, I think it makes more sense. Like how do we say that Tim Duncan is a better PF than Kobe is a SG?
Good discussion though, I go out of town for a day and come back with 5 new pages. I hate playing catch up.
I know people don't like this, but I would prefer to see a position based ranking system. Instead of grouping everyone together, I think it makes more sense. Like how do we say that Tim Duncan is a better PF than Kobe is a SG?
Good discussion though, I go out of town for a day and come back with 5 new pages. I hate playing catch up.
I know people don't like this, but I would prefer to see a position based ranking system. Instead of grouping everyone together, I think it makes more sense. Like how do we say that Tim Duncan is a better PF than Kobe is a SG?
Good discussion though, I go out of town for a day and come back with 5 new pages. I hate playing catch up.
Absolutely agree, it makes it much easier to rank guys like Dirk too. If you're going to go ahead and rank the top 10 players ever, that's a little easier, but for someone in the 20s/30s, it makes it really hard for guys who aren't in the same position.
I know people don't like this, but I would prefer to see a position based ranking system. Instead of grouping everyone together, I think it makes more sense. Like how do we say that Tim Duncan is a better PF than Kobe is a SG?
Good discussion though, I go out of town for a day and come back with 5 new pages. I hate playing catch up.
Absolutely agree, it makes it much easier to rank guys like Dirk too. If you're going to go ahead and rank the top 10 players ever, that's a little easier, but for someone in the 20s/30s, it makes it really hard for guys who aren't in the same position.
irk anymore, KG won 1 chip with two HOF's who were still both playing at a high level. Dirk got robbed of one, and might win another and the 2nd best player on those teams were Jason Terry
