NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes

and further more to that point on numbers..

when talking overall totals, number of games played has to be factored in (also roll on their respective team).. for example, mchale only played in 971 games, while malone played in 1476 (also i'm pretty sure if he was asked to be the no. 1 scorng option, like malone was, his total points scored would have been higher)


but then again, you have to take the total numbers of games played into consideration because it proves longevity (which is why i prob rate stockton no. 2 or 3 for PGs.. because it would come down to the type of team you had when picking between him or isiah for me)  





EDIT:
on the kobe almost being 4th on the all-time playoffs total assists list, he's played 208 playoffs games..

to put that into perspective, stockton played 182

magic 190

kidd 142
 
Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:
On comparisons to Micheal....

They are not valid, no matter how many championship he wins, no matter how many other awards an accolades he gets, It's blasphemy it's unholy so please stop. Micheal while similar to Kobe in demeanor, attitude, competitiveness, skill set, style of play but Micheal was simply better, in every measurable way. There is no plausible argument to make that Kobe is Micheal's  equal argument, Micheal operates in a rarefied air with the likes of Russel, Wilt, Magic, Oscar, Bird...but Kobe? no. no. no. Not now not ever, so please let it go. 





Michael's accomplishments are far ahead of Kobe's but in terms of the actual player, there have never been two players in the history of the game so similar to each other. Both slashers and high flyers early in their career. Both adapted to the game when their knees went by developing a low post and midrange game. Their skill sets are completely identical.  Whether you like it or not, they are the exact same player. And that is why I think it is fair to include Kobe in a discussion with MJ.
But MJ>Kobe. As dude said Michael just did everything better
 
Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:
On comparisons to Micheal....

They are not valid, no matter how many championship he wins, no matter how many other awards an accolades he gets, It's blasphemy it's unholy so please stop. Micheal while similar to Kobe in demeanor, attitude, competitiveness, skill set, style of play but Micheal was simply better, in every measurable way. There is no plausible argument to make that Kobe is Micheal's  equal argument, Micheal operates in a rarefied air with the likes of Russel, Wilt, Magic, Oscar, Bird...but Kobe? no. no. no. Not now not ever, so please let it go. 





Michael's accomplishments are far ahead of Kobe's but in terms of the actual player, there have never been two players in the history of the game so similar to each other. Both slashers and high flyers early in their career. Both adapted to the game when their knees went by developing a low post and midrange game. Their skill sets are completely identical.  Whether you like it or not, they are the exact same player. And that is why I think it is fair to include Kobe in a discussion with MJ.
But MJ>Kobe. As dude said Michael just did everything better
 
Originally Posted by af1 1982

Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:
On comparisons to Micheal....

They are not valid, no matter how many championship he wins, no matter how many other awards an accolades he gets, It's blasphemy it's unholy so please stop. Micheal while similar to Kobe in demeanor, attitude, competitiveness, skill set, style of play but Micheal was simply better, in every measurable way. There is no plausible argument to make that Kobe is Micheal's  equal argument, Micheal operates in a rarefied air with the likes of Russel, Wilt, Magic, Oscar, Bird...but Kobe? no. no. no. Not now not ever, so please let it go. 





Michael's accomplishments are far ahead of Kobe's but in terms of the actual player, there have never been two players in the history of the game so similar to each other. Both slashers and high flyers early in their career. Both adapted to the game when their knees went by developing a low post and midrange game. Their skill sets are completely identical.  Whether you like it or not, they are the exact same player. And that is why I think it is fair to include Kobe in a discussion with MJ.
But MJ>Kobe. As dude said Michael just did everything better

It's not fair becuase as you said Micheal did everything better...significantly better, so stop disscussing there is nothing to discuss.

In Nissa 350z is a sports car and a Lambroghini is a sports car, but we don't have conversations about which one is better.
laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted by af1 1982

Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:
On comparisons to Micheal....

They are not valid, no matter how many championship he wins, no matter how many other awards an accolades he gets, It's blasphemy it's unholy so please stop. Micheal while similar to Kobe in demeanor, attitude, competitiveness, skill set, style of play but Micheal was simply better, in every measurable way. There is no plausible argument to make that Kobe is Micheal's  equal argument, Micheal operates in a rarefied air with the likes of Russel, Wilt, Magic, Oscar, Bird...but Kobe? no. no. no. Not now not ever, so please let it go. 





Michael's accomplishments are far ahead of Kobe's but in terms of the actual player, there have never been two players in the history of the game so similar to each other. Both slashers and high flyers early in their career. Both adapted to the game when their knees went by developing a low post and midrange game. Their skill sets are completely identical.  Whether you like it or not, they are the exact same player. And that is why I think it is fair to include Kobe in a discussion with MJ.
But MJ>Kobe. As dude said Michael just did everything better

It's not fair becuase as you said Micheal did everything better...significantly better, so stop disscussing there is nothing to discuss.

In Nissa 350z is a sports car and a Lambroghini is a sports car, but we don't have conversations about which one is better.
laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted by CP1708

Esential, I thought Gervin was a SF?  Am I off on that? 
nerd.gif

  


He played both..  I looked at a lot of top position lists to see arguments for/against people.... Gervin appeared in numerous SG ones.. And was listed as a Guard/Forward on basketball reference..

You could put him in either position it seems...
 
Originally Posted by CP1708

Esential, I thought Gervin was a SF?  Am I off on that? 
nerd.gif

  


He played both..  I looked at a lot of top position lists to see arguments for/against people.... Gervin appeared in numerous SG ones.. And was listed as a Guard/Forward on basketball reference..

You could put him in either position it seems...
 
I like the top 5 for each position idea, here it goes for me:

Center:
1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. Wilt

PF
1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Malone
4. Pettit
5. Barkley

SF
1. Bird
2. Baylor
3. Havlicek
4. LeBron
5. Pippen

SG
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Gervin

PG
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Isiah
4.  Kidd
5. Stockton

And to that Kidd vs. GP discussion few pages back, GP is prolly my favorite player ever but Kidd will have had a better career when its all said and done.  I do think GP is underrated though by lots of people, maybe next to Jordan himself the man on man perimeter defender I've seen in my short life.
 
I like the top 5 for each position idea, here it goes for me:

Center:
1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. Wilt

PF
1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Malone
4. Pettit
5. Barkley

SF
1. Bird
2. Baylor
3. Havlicek
4. LeBron
5. Pippen

SG
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Gervin

PG
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Isiah
4.  Kidd
5. Stockton

And to that Kidd vs. GP discussion few pages back, GP is prolly my favorite player ever but Kidd will have had a better career when its all said and done.  I do think GP is underrated though by lots of people, maybe next to Jordan himself the man on man perimeter defender I've seen in my short life.
 
Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by af1 1982

Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:
On comparisons to Micheal....

They are not valid, no matter how many championship he wins, no matter how many other awards an accolades he gets, It's blasphemy it's unholy so please stop. Micheal while similar to Kobe in demeanor, attitude, competitiveness, skill set, style of play but Micheal was simply better, in every measurable way. There is no plausible argument to make that Kobe is Micheal's  equal argument, Micheal operates in a rarefied air with the likes of Russel, Wilt, Magic, Oscar, Bird...but Kobe? no. no. no. Not now not ever, so please let it go. 

Michael's accomplishments are far ahead of Kobe's but in terms of the actual player, there have never been two players in the history of the game so similar to each other. Both slashers and high flyers early in their career. Both adapted to the game when their knees went by developing a low post and midrange game. Their skill sets are completely identical.  Whether you like it or not, they are the exact same player. And that is why I think it is fair to include Kobe in a discussion with MJ.
But MJ>Kobe. As dude said Michael just did everything better

It's not fair becuase as you said Micheal did everything better...significantly better, so stop disscussing there is nothing to discuss.

In Nissa 350z is a sports car and a Lambroghini is a sports car, but we don't have conversations about which one is better.
laugh.gif




Obviously he's better but it doesn't mean Kobe shouldn't be grouped among the elite players that you listed in your original post
 
Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by af1 1982

Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:
On comparisons to Micheal....

They are not valid, no matter how many championship he wins, no matter how many other awards an accolades he gets, It's blasphemy it's unholy so please stop. Micheal while similar to Kobe in demeanor, attitude, competitiveness, skill set, style of play but Micheal was simply better, in every measurable way. There is no plausible argument to make that Kobe is Micheal's  equal argument, Micheal operates in a rarefied air with the likes of Russel, Wilt, Magic, Oscar, Bird...but Kobe? no. no. no. Not now not ever, so please let it go. 

Michael's accomplishments are far ahead of Kobe's but in terms of the actual player, there have never been two players in the history of the game so similar to each other. Both slashers and high flyers early in their career. Both adapted to the game when their knees went by developing a low post and midrange game. Their skill sets are completely identical.  Whether you like it or not, they are the exact same player. And that is why I think it is fair to include Kobe in a discussion with MJ.
But MJ>Kobe. As dude said Michael just did everything better

It's not fair becuase as you said Micheal did everything better...significantly better, so stop disscussing there is nothing to discuss.

In Nissa 350z is a sports car and a Lambroghini is a sports car, but we don't have conversations about which one is better.
laugh.gif




Obviously he's better but it doesn't mean Kobe shouldn't be grouped among the elite players that you listed in your original post
 
Originally Posted by af1 1982

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by af1 1982


Michael's accomplishments are far ahead of Kobe's but in terms of the actual player, there have never been two players in the history of the game so similar to each other. Both slashers and high flyers early in their career. Both adapted to the game when their knees went by developing a low post and midrange game. Their skill sets are completely identical.  Whether you like it or not, they are the exact same player. And that is why I think it is fair to include Kobe in a discussion with MJ.
But MJ>Kobe. As dude said Michael just did everything better
It's not fair becuase as you said Micheal did everything better...significantly better, so stop disscussing there is nothing to discuss.

In Nissa 350z is a sports car and a Lambroghini is a sports car, but we don't have conversations about which one is better.
laugh.gif

Obviously he's better but it doesn't mean Kobe shouldn't be grouped among the elite players that you listed in your original post
He shouldn't be, those players are in discussion for the GOAT. Kobe is not.
 
Originally Posted by af1 1982

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by af1 1982


Michael's accomplishments are far ahead of Kobe's but in terms of the actual player, there have never been two players in the history of the game so similar to each other. Both slashers and high flyers early in their career. Both adapted to the game when their knees went by developing a low post and midrange game. Their skill sets are completely identical.  Whether you like it or not, they are the exact same player. And that is why I think it is fair to include Kobe in a discussion with MJ.
But MJ>Kobe. As dude said Michael just did everything better
It's not fair becuase as you said Micheal did everything better...significantly better, so stop disscussing there is nothing to discuss.

In Nissa 350z is a sports car and a Lambroghini is a sports car, but we don't have conversations about which one is better.
laugh.gif

Obviously he's better but it doesn't mean Kobe shouldn't be grouped among the elite players that you listed in your original post
He shouldn't be, those players are in discussion for the GOAT. Kobe is not.
 
Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

I like the top 5 for each position idea, here it goes for me:

Center:
1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. Wilt

PF
1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Malone
4. Pettit
5. Barkley

SF
1. Bird
2. Baylor
3. Havlicek
4. LeBron
5. Pippen

SG
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Gervin

PG
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Isiah
4.  Kidd
5. Stockton

And to that Kidd vs. GP discussion few pages back, GP is prolly my favorite player ever but Kidd will have had a better career when its all said and done.  I do think GP is underrated though by lots of people, maybe next to Jordan himself the man on man perimeter defender I've seen in my short life.


   Center:
1. Kareem
2. Akeem
3. Shaq
4. Russell
5. Wilt


PF
1. Duncan
2. K.G.
3. Dirk
4. Barkley
5. Malone



SF
1. Pippen
2. Baylor
3. Bird
4. LeBron
5. Havlicek


SG
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. West
5. Gervin



PG
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Kidd
4. Stockton
5. Isiah


Best shooters
1. Ray Allen
2. Reggie
3. Bird
4. Jordan
5. Nash


Best Defenders
Cant think right now and opinion might change
 
Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

I like the top 5 for each position idea, here it goes for me:

Center:
1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. Wilt

PF
1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Malone
4. Pettit
5. Barkley

SF
1. Bird
2. Baylor
3. Havlicek
4. LeBron
5. Pippen

SG
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Gervin

PG
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Isiah
4.  Kidd
5. Stockton

And to that Kidd vs. GP discussion few pages back, GP is prolly my favorite player ever but Kidd will have had a better career when its all said and done.  I do think GP is underrated though by lots of people, maybe next to Jordan himself the man on man perimeter defender I've seen in my short life.


   Center:
1. Kareem
2. Akeem
3. Shaq
4. Russell
5. Wilt


PF
1. Duncan
2. K.G.
3. Dirk
4. Barkley
5. Malone



SF
1. Pippen
2. Baylor
3. Bird
4. LeBron
5. Havlicek


SG
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. West
5. Gervin



PG
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Kidd
4. Stockton
5. Isiah


Best shooters
1. Ray Allen
2. Reggie
3. Bird
4. Jordan
5. Nash


Best Defenders
Cant think right now and opinion might change
 
Steve Nash

I have probably only typed more words about 1-2 players on NT than Steve.  Few years ago, I was simply shocked at what people were saying during his best years. 
His Dallas days were fun, and tough on me back then.  Nick Van Exel was my second favorite player all time (after Magic) and he was there in Dallas playing with Steve and Dirk and Michael Finley.  They were certainly a fun team to watch, and Don Nelson ball will always put up TONS of points.  I remember always thinking that Dirk was the star, and Nash the 2nd man on the team, but it seemed that Nick was the balls of the team.  It was his style, he had no fear and a @#$% you attitude at all times.  Nash was the quiet presense.  No frills, just go out and do his job.  Get guys the ball, run the team, that was that.  I could make a case that he only did that on offense though, on defense it was sort of his rest time. 
laugh.gif
  He was a solid solid player, but I never thought of him being anything elite, or special.  Much the same as I never thought Mark Price was elite or special, just very very good.

Cuban played the odds, and let Nash leave as a free agent.  Steve going to Phoenix was a great career move for him, one it was the team that drafted him, 2 it seems to have the magic powers to heal or some @#$%.  Players all seem to rejuvinate in the Phoenix air or something.  This was something else though.  Steve was joining one helluva a nice young core, FULL of talent to play with.  It wasn't Don Nelson, but it wasn't far from it either.  They weren't very deep yet, but they had plenty of star power.  Stat, Marion, Q (when he was good) and a young Joe Johnson.  Stat's unique outside game for a 6-11 guy, as well as liking to be far away from rough and tumble inside play was perfect for Steve when mixed with 3 other guys that could shoot from deep.  This opened the court to Nash like never before.  He had lanes, room to move, vision to make passes, angles, everything.  It was apparent early their style would work well for Steve.  (Dirk was a similiar weapon to Stat in that sense, but in Dallas at the end they had added Jamison, and Walker, plus had Shawn Bradley's slow @#$ cloggin things up a bit.  The angles weren't the same)

For reasons I will never, ever understand, Nash moving to Phoenix and them improving led the media to give Nash the MVP award.  He was given so much credit for changing their team, when really the year before was just that much of a disaster.  Having Marbury lead your team will make you look worse than you really are.  But still, everyone gave credit to Steve for their success, and he took the MVP away from Shaq.  The fact that the MVP averaged 15 points and 11 assists was stunning to me considering Jason Kidd could put numbers up like that, or John Stockton, or even Mark Jackson, and none of them ever won MVP.  (Kidd did come close though) 
The following year was just as bad, Nash won the MVP again, putting him in some rather select company but at least he had a slightly better argument since Stat was down for the year.  Still, people were out of their minds and gave him so much credit for others success.  I wish they would have realized at the time what they were doing, which is all I was ever screaming for. 
Nash was SURROUNDED by shooters.  Guys that could put the ball in the basket.  They may not have been elite at any other things, but shooting/scoring, they could do.  Spread them all out, and Nash can rack up assists with ease.  Year 1 he had Stat, Marion, Q, Joe Johnson, Jim Jackson, Barbosa, scorers everywhere.  The next year the Suns went even more 3 ball, giving him Marion, Eddie House, James Jones, Barbosa, Raja Bell, multi use Diaw, even Tim Thomas was brought in to shoot from outside. Their lone inside presence was Kurt Thomas, who is still in the league today battling.  They gave Nash everything he could ask for, guys who could shoot when he gave them the ball.  People would claim HE made THEM better, which is part true, and mostly myth.  The fact was they could score, he made sure to get them the ball where they liked so they could.  I argued a billion times with people, if 3 of his starters were Kwame, Smush and Luke Walton, he wouldn't get half the assists he gets in Phoenix, they either wouldn't make shots, or even catch the ball in Kwame's case. 
laugh.gif
  People wouldn't listen.  They still swear up and down that Nash made them all better shooters.  Of course all of those guys have gone on to other teams and continued to make shots, but that will be overlooked forever. 

The last few years, he's played just as well, if not better, but the Suns tried to change thier system for a bit to get more "playoff" like, but it failed quickly, so they went back to shooters galore, and whatdya know, Nash's game got better. 
laugh.gif
  They put Stat, J Rich, Channing Frye, and Grant Hill around him as shooters, though Grant didn't have the 3 range they needed, so they would sub in Jared Dudley for stretches to extend the defense and help create those lanes for Nash again.  This got them close to a finals again, but it was still just a gimmick offense that wouldn't last in postseason play. 

Failures by the front office have kept Steve from really having a shot at getting to the finals.  Smarter moves by them, and they quite possibly could have done something bigger.  But they were cheap, and short sighted, and it will cost Nash in the end.  Hopefully this year he will be relased from prison, and get traded by the Suns. 

One of the things I have not touched on yet is, Steve may be one of thee best shooters the game has ever seen.  One of my qualms of him was that he didn't shoot more.  Especially as good as he is, he should have been shooting more to help his team, rather than waiting til it was too late to get them back into games.  IMO he could have EASILY scored 20 a night, and lost only an assist or 2 a game and maybe more effectively and efficiently helped his team, but he was a consumate team guy, and took the losses with his teammates well.  He was a fighter, and feisty, and had heart, but you need murder in your heart sometimes, and he didn't have that.  He cared, he wanted to win, he tried, but he didn't have murder in him.  It cost him.

Better front office work, lil extra evil in his soul, Steve could have been to a couple finals and maybe even won a title or two.  As a token parting gift, the NBA gave him 2 MVP's for his troubles instead.  Bet he wishes he could trade those in, and I bet the media wishes for a do over themselves.  But hindsight is 20/20.  %$#%%@@%@!+!* shoulda listened to me all that time.  I was lonely tellin em. 
wink.gif
  
 
Steve Nash

I have probably only typed more words about 1-2 players on NT than Steve.  Few years ago, I was simply shocked at what people were saying during his best years. 
His Dallas days were fun, and tough on me back then.  Nick Van Exel was my second favorite player all time (after Magic) and he was there in Dallas playing with Steve and Dirk and Michael Finley.  They were certainly a fun team to watch, and Don Nelson ball will always put up TONS of points.  I remember always thinking that Dirk was the star, and Nash the 2nd man on the team, but it seemed that Nick was the balls of the team.  It was his style, he had no fear and a @#$% you attitude at all times.  Nash was the quiet presense.  No frills, just go out and do his job.  Get guys the ball, run the team, that was that.  I could make a case that he only did that on offense though, on defense it was sort of his rest time. 
laugh.gif
  He was a solid solid player, but I never thought of him being anything elite, or special.  Much the same as I never thought Mark Price was elite or special, just very very good.

Cuban played the odds, and let Nash leave as a free agent.  Steve going to Phoenix was a great career move for him, one it was the team that drafted him, 2 it seems to have the magic powers to heal or some @#$%.  Players all seem to rejuvinate in the Phoenix air or something.  This was something else though.  Steve was joining one helluva a nice young core, FULL of talent to play with.  It wasn't Don Nelson, but it wasn't far from it either.  They weren't very deep yet, but they had plenty of star power.  Stat, Marion, Q (when he was good) and a young Joe Johnson.  Stat's unique outside game for a 6-11 guy, as well as liking to be far away from rough and tumble inside play was perfect for Steve when mixed with 3 other guys that could shoot from deep.  This opened the court to Nash like never before.  He had lanes, room to move, vision to make passes, angles, everything.  It was apparent early their style would work well for Steve.  (Dirk was a similiar weapon to Stat in that sense, but in Dallas at the end they had added Jamison, and Walker, plus had Shawn Bradley's slow @#$ cloggin things up a bit.  The angles weren't the same)

For reasons I will never, ever understand, Nash moving to Phoenix and them improving led the media to give Nash the MVP award.  He was given so much credit for changing their team, when really the year before was just that much of a disaster.  Having Marbury lead your team will make you look worse than you really are.  But still, everyone gave credit to Steve for their success, and he took the MVP away from Shaq.  The fact that the MVP averaged 15 points and 11 assists was stunning to me considering Jason Kidd could put numbers up like that, or John Stockton, or even Mark Jackson, and none of them ever won MVP.  (Kidd did come close though) 
The following year was just as bad, Nash won the MVP again, putting him in some rather select company but at least he had a slightly better argument since Stat was down for the year.  Still, people were out of their minds and gave him so much credit for others success.  I wish they would have realized at the time what they were doing, which is all I was ever screaming for. 
Nash was SURROUNDED by shooters.  Guys that could put the ball in the basket.  They may not have been elite at any other things, but shooting/scoring, they could do.  Spread them all out, and Nash can rack up assists with ease.  Year 1 he had Stat, Marion, Q, Joe Johnson, Jim Jackson, Barbosa, scorers everywhere.  The next year the Suns went even more 3 ball, giving him Marion, Eddie House, James Jones, Barbosa, Raja Bell, multi use Diaw, even Tim Thomas was brought in to shoot from outside. Their lone inside presence was Kurt Thomas, who is still in the league today battling.  They gave Nash everything he could ask for, guys who could shoot when he gave them the ball.  People would claim HE made THEM better, which is part true, and mostly myth.  The fact was they could score, he made sure to get them the ball where they liked so they could.  I argued a billion times with people, if 3 of his starters were Kwame, Smush and Luke Walton, he wouldn't get half the assists he gets in Phoenix, they either wouldn't make shots, or even catch the ball in Kwame's case. 
laugh.gif
  People wouldn't listen.  They still swear up and down that Nash made them all better shooters.  Of course all of those guys have gone on to other teams and continued to make shots, but that will be overlooked forever. 

The last few years, he's played just as well, if not better, but the Suns tried to change thier system for a bit to get more "playoff" like, but it failed quickly, so they went back to shooters galore, and whatdya know, Nash's game got better. 
laugh.gif
  They put Stat, J Rich, Channing Frye, and Grant Hill around him as shooters, though Grant didn't have the 3 range they needed, so they would sub in Jared Dudley for stretches to extend the defense and help create those lanes for Nash again.  This got them close to a finals again, but it was still just a gimmick offense that wouldn't last in postseason play. 

Failures by the front office have kept Steve from really having a shot at getting to the finals.  Smarter moves by them, and they quite possibly could have done something bigger.  But they were cheap, and short sighted, and it will cost Nash in the end.  Hopefully this year he will be relased from prison, and get traded by the Suns. 

One of the things I have not touched on yet is, Steve may be one of thee best shooters the game has ever seen.  One of my qualms of him was that he didn't shoot more.  Especially as good as he is, he should have been shooting more to help his team, rather than waiting til it was too late to get them back into games.  IMO he could have EASILY scored 20 a night, and lost only an assist or 2 a game and maybe more effectively and efficiently helped his team, but he was a consumate team guy, and took the losses with his teammates well.  He was a fighter, and feisty, and had heart, but you need murder in your heart sometimes, and he didn't have that.  He cared, he wanted to win, he tried, but he didn't have murder in him.  It cost him.

Better front office work, lil extra evil in his soul, Steve could have been to a couple finals and maybe even won a title or two.  As a token parting gift, the NBA gave him 2 MVP's for his troubles instead.  Bet he wishes he could trade those in, and I bet the media wishes for a do over themselves.  But hindsight is 20/20.  %$#%%@@%@!+!* shoulda listened to me all that time.  I was lonely tellin em. 
wink.gif
  
 
Am I the only one that refuses to speak on players I didn't live through? Like Big O, Big Wilt, Russell, I wasn't even born for their careers. How can I fairly speak on them?
 
Am I the only one that refuses to speak on players I didn't live through? Like Big O, Big Wilt, Russell, I wasn't even born for their careers. How can I fairly speak on them?
 
You know you're going to have to embrace Steve when he gets traded to LA right CP
laugh.gif
 
You know you're going to have to embrace Steve when he gets traded to LA right CP
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The Phoenix Suns are not going to trade Steve Nash within their own division to a team they despise. 

DC, I hear you completely, I try to dance around those guys as much as possible.  I know the names, I know the achievements, I've read about their careers, but I didn't actually see them play.  Who was speaking on them that you brought this up?  The ranking system?  Even without seeing them, you have a general feel where they slot don't you? 

And if you want, you could just do a top 5 by position for players you have seen.  Last 25+ years etc.  Just exclude the 60's and 70's players. 
 
The Phoenix Suns are not going to trade Steve Nash within their own division to a team they despise. 

DC, I hear you completely, I try to dance around those guys as much as possible.  I know the names, I know the achievements, I've read about their careers, but I didn't actually see them play.  Who was speaking on them that you brought this up?  The ranking system?  Even without seeing them, you have a general feel where they slot don't you? 

And if you want, you could just do a top 5 by position for players you have seen.  Last 25+ years etc.  Just exclude the 60's and 70's players. 
 
Well based on who I have been able to watch and enjoy

PG
Magic
Isaiah
Stockton
Kidd
GP

SG
Jordan
Kobe
Wade
Iverson
Drexler/Reggie (Tough call for me)

SF
Bird
LeBronze
Pippen
Nique
Worthy/Pierce (Tough call once again)

PF
Duncan
Malone
Barkley
KG
Dirk

C
Dream
Shaqtus
Robinson
Ewing
Zo

Like I said, I can only go by what I was able to understand. I think it is even a slight stretch for me to include Magic and Zeke because I wasn't fully knowledgable of the game. I know who was good and who wasn't but indepth knowledge that I have today, nah, I didn't have it then.

But that is my list.
 
Well based on who I have been able to watch and enjoy

PG
Magic
Isaiah
Stockton
Kidd
GP

SG
Jordan
Kobe
Wade
Iverson
Drexler/Reggie (Tough call for me)

SF
Bird
LeBronze
Pippen
Nique
Worthy/Pierce (Tough call once again)

PF
Duncan
Malone
Barkley
KG
Dirk

C
Dream
Shaqtus
Robinson
Ewing
Zo

Like I said, I can only go by what I was able to understand. I think it is even a slight stretch for me to include Magic and Zeke because I wasn't fully knowledgable of the game. I know who was good and who wasn't but indepth knowledge that I have today, nah, I didn't have it then.

But that is my list.
 
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